Author Topic: Generators in use by IAL members of 6000W +  (Read 8761 times)

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Online Libertas

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Generators in use by IAL members of 6000W +
« on: August 26, 2012, 12:51:56 PM »
Hey y'all, on my generator issue again.  Wondering what people may have for 6k+ and if you have any recommendations.  Gotta get something for the lake and get the electrician in to do the hook ups.  We've looked at different stores (Fleet Farm, Northern Tool etc) and models (Powerhorse, NorthStar, Generac and SafeCross has an anti-theft model [?]) and I'm trying to figure out what brand/model is the most efficient, most quiet, most easily secured and most affordable given these considerations.  I thought we had a thread about this but I seem to be not finding it.  Anyway, this would be a full-time set up using gas power (I lost the debate for a propane unit) for emergency power.

Thanks in advance!
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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Generators in use by IAL members of 6000W +
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2012, 01:43:26 PM »
Hey y'all, on my generator issue again.  Wondering what people may have for 6k+ and if you have any recommendations.  Gotta get something for the lake and get the electrician in to do the hook ups.  We've looked at different stores (Fleet Farm, Northern Tool etc) and models (Powerhorse, NorthStar, Generac and SafeCross has an anti-theft model [?]) and I'm trying to figure out what brand/model is the most efficient, most quiet, most easily secured and most affordable given these considerations.  I thought we had a thread about this but I seem to be not finding it.  Anyway, this would be a full-time set up using gas power (I lost the debate for a propane unit) for emergency power.

Thanks in advance!

How did you loose the debate on propane?  What fuel source does the house have? Why 6K? ( that is as much as my solar array)

You don't need an electrician for this.. its pretty basic stuff you can do yourself for about $100 or less.  Depending on what load box is there now it can be as simple as adding a manual interlock ( two breakers locked together, so that only one can be on at a time) .
Don't have a generator myself yet.. want to give the solar a try ( I call for inspection Monday! Finally!) and then figure how much I need to charge the batts.

charlesoakwood

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Re: Generators in use by IAL members of 6000W +
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2012, 02:07:01 PM »

I bought from Northern Tools, as a dealer they are honest but will
cut you no slack.  It's powered by a Honda, I like that, and it's 6k.
This one was chosen because it has a clean sign wave so as to create
no static for computers or tv. This was an error.  For the price differential
I could have purchased a much bigger "common" generator.

6k will not start my well pump.  6k will not start my well pump.
Be sure and know for certain how many watts are necessary to
start your well pump.  Also even if it did start my pump it would
be much more convenient to have more watts.  If you're thinking
about the folks you might also consider an electric start.

It's easier to buy some 12/2 with a ground, plugs, sockets run them
in the house like extension cords this a clear and separate system which
is also portable. On mine the 220 is split into two 110s.  Hammered
a small wooden box and installed a pair of wall sockets side by side.
Out of the box is one of the cords going to the 220 on the generator.


Edit to add: generators are not like gas engines, you cannot coax or
tweak a little more out of them and that rating is the best, on a good
day, achievable maximum; you want some slack.


 
« Last Edit: August 26, 2012, 02:18:26 PM by Charles Oakwood »

Offline AlanS

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Re: Generators in use by IAL members of 6000W +
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2012, 02:31:08 PM »
6k will not start my well pump.  6k will not start my well pump.

What size pump do you have, Charles? I've used a 5kw and run our 3/4 hp submersible pump plus all of the electrics in the house except for the stove, a/c, and water heater.

What surprised me was how much electricity a microwave and coffee pot use.
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."

Thomas Jefferson

charlesoakwood

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Re: Generators in use by IAL members of 6000W +
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2012, 03:02:22 PM »

I have a one hp, two wire.  A two wire takes more than twice the running amps to start it.  The upside is it has no points for ants to foul. 

You've probably go it timed so the compressors don't start at the same time.  ACs and the fridge and the freezer at one time will pull a lot of amps.

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Re: Generators in use by IAL members of 6000W +
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2012, 07:33:14 PM »
I lost the debate on propane, it's their home so we'll leave it at that.

I don't know how much draw the pump takes, the well is over 100' feet deep so I suspect the pump is drawing quite a bit, but I will look at it on Friday.  There is also septic pumps to run as we have not got our outhouse plans executed yet, plus the fridge and freezer.  I am sure the water heater and washer would be next.  Obviously in a SHTF situation we would not waste fuel on washer and water heater, once the food is used up fridge & freezer would drop off too so that all we would be saving fuel for is to pump fresh water.

I am thinking we may need something in the 9-10k range maybe, and electrical start is a must.  I favor something Honda powered since they are reliable engines (my BIL uses various sizes of them all the time) and perhaps the most quiet.  Inastallation of the wiring is going to be done by someone my father knows, that debate is over too, and he wants the generator on site before he does his work.  I am hoping there is a way I can cage the thing and camoflage it from view.

And since I lost the fuel debate I have to figure out how large/what kind of storage unit to look into and how it can be stabilized to maximize usefullness.

My plate runneth over.

 :P
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charlesoakwood

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Re: Generators in use by IAL members of 6000W +
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2012, 07:53:34 PM »

JF will get here sooner or later but in the meantime it seems
running all the various appliances without concern of overdraw
10k may be short.  Pan has knowhow about this also.

My Honda is LOUD, what is bil's secret?
I want to hook mine to an auto muffler
but lack the "howto" from Honda exhaust
manifold to a bigger tailpipe.



Online Libertas

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Re: Generators in use by IAL members of 6000W +
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2012, 08:04:23 PM »
OK, perhaps I shoud rephrase that, none are "quiet" per se, just less loud.  BIL uses 1 hp up to 8.5 or something in various applications, run well, he just hates the pull-start mechanism...rope breaking, having to re-wind the sucker and re-install.  Has a hirling who does it really well and really quick, but other than that he has not had any mechanical breakdowns after hundreds (perhaps thousands for some) of hours of service.  (He hates Briggs & Stratton with a passion, had a lot of issues with them, so he hasn't touched them in years)

I'll try to do a comprehensive review of all draw needs on Friday, there may be some understanding reached as to what should be run or not (even in a temporary main power loss situation).

I'm sure we're looking at a mid-fall completion date for this at the latest so we have some time to get our poop in a group.  But all these questions and considerations are helping, we want to be sure we have enough but don't go overboard.
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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Generators in use by IAL members of 6000W +
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2012, 11:10:50 PM »
I lost the debate on propane, it's their home so we'll leave it at that.

I don't know how much draw the pump takes, the well is over 100' feet deep so I suspect the pump is drawing quite a bit, but I will look at it on Friday.  There is also septic pumps to run as we have not got our outhouse plans executed yet, plus the fridge and freezer.  I am sure the water heater and washer would be next.  Obviously in a SHTF situation we would not waste fuel on washer and water heater, once the food is used up fridge & freezer would drop off too so that all we would be saving fuel for is to pump fresh water.

I am thinking we may need something in the 9-10k range maybe, and electrical start is a must.  I favor something Honda powered since they are reliable engines (my BIL uses various sizes of them all the time) and perhaps the most quiet.  Inastallation of the wiring is going to be done by someone my father knows, that debate is over too, and he wants the generator on site before he does his work.  I am hoping there is a way I can cage the thing and camoflage it from view.

And since I lost the fuel debate I have to figure out how large/what kind of storage unit to look into and how it can be stabilized to maximize usefullness.

My plate runneth over.

 :P



Do not use electricity to heat anything - certainly not a hot water heater. Some pex tubing, poly, black paint and a little effort  will yiled better results
http://www.builditsolar.com/Experimental/PEXColDHW/Overview.htm

I just don't see how you "loose the argument" - The gasoline just won't store. You can put the stablizer in it and it will last for a year or two. Maybe three.  But in a big tank you will probably get condensation over time as well, adding water to it.  Propane is really what is going to store the longest. I don't see how you loose the argument if TEOTAWAKI is the scenario... I guess not everyone is on board, and they are still planning for the 7 Day outage, not the 7 month to 7  year problem?

They do make Tri-Fuel engines, so maybe that is the way to go? Or go after one of JFs military surplus from the trucks?

 Its the initial current draw to get the pump running that is the hurdle - however if the generator is going to power continuous loads like a fridge etc,  getting batteries and an inverter is  probably a better way to go- that way the gen just runs to charge the batteries - not all of the time, so noise is less of an issue, and  you don't have to "turn the fridge/freezer" off for certain periods. Also many inverters have the capacity to give that extra bit of juice. The Outbacks on my PV system support 30 amps continuous, but 70 amps for short bursts for just this sort of thing.

A separate freezer and Fridge will use between 2-4 KW-Hrs a day. A 1 hp pump run for an hour will use .75 kw-hr or so. So say you need 8 Kw-hr a day for lights and other misc use - and you size the battery bank accordingly.  Probably about $2000 for the batts, and another $1-3K for the inverter depending on size... Of course, now you are half way to a Solar PV system-- add 8 solar panels or so for another  $4000k or so, and the fuel problem goes away, and of course you can suppliment the battery charging with a  generator if needed. - Total cost is around  $10K with decent batts , but you can deduct 30% of  that from the Fed taxes, and other local " make your neighbors subsidize your personal choices" rebates may make it more attractive.  No fuel to go bad. No moving parts.  Granted, even after the tax deduction, you are still looking at 2-3 times the price of the generator, but unless you plan the run the thing continuously, I just don't see how you keep a fridge/freezer running without batts. And heavan forbid you do shut it down a forget to turn it back on in time and the food thaws.
 

charlesoakwood

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Re: Generators in use by IAL members of 6000W +
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2012, 12:15:42 AM »

Need a lot of solar for that water heater.   A deligent person with a well insulated electric may turn it on when needed and then off, same with propane and electronic ignition.

Quote
I just don't see how you "loose the argument" -
Sometimes it's the better part.  It's not logic it's love.

Quote
Its the initial current draw to get the pump running that is the hurdle
Anything with a compressor will draw a minimum of double the running watts. 
It is good to check with the manufacturer their answer should be the most accurate.  Your well digger should have the best answer for that specific motor.


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Re: Generators in use by IAL members of 6000W +
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2012, 06:45:38 AM »
Thanks for the info guys, perhaps after some more research I can revisit the debate anew.  I'd love to go the solar route, but I know people will be grabbing their chests at the higher outlay, and I am thinking the water heater is a moot issue, if the SHTF bathing/washing will be in/from the lake or with rain water, it is my strong opinion the well should be used for cooking and drinking only.  I'll have to come up with a grid I present to everyone, showing each option (w/add on's) and their benefits/limitations, once I complete my research.
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Re: Generators in use by IAL members of 6000W +
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2012, 07:04:42 AM »
Libertas, I looked all over for the previous generator thread and I can't find it either!
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

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Online Libertas

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Re: Generators in use by IAL members of 6000W +
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2012, 07:10:02 AM »
Good (I'm not imagining it!), bad (where did it go?).  Oh well, this one has legs now.   ;)
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Re: Generators in use by IAL members of 6000W +
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2012, 07:15:09 AM »
Good (I'm not imagining it!), bad (where did it go?).  Oh well, this one has legs now.   ;)

I have a feeling it's around here somewhere, but not findable because of the thread title.  That's the trouble with thread-drift; it's interesting the twists and turns a thread may take, but makes finding the desired content problematic later.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Generators in use by IAL members of 6000W +
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2012, 08:51:20 AM »

Need a lot of solar for that water heater.   A deligent person with a well insulated electric may turn it on when needed and then off, same with propane and electronic ignition.


Electricity is just one of the worst ways to heat anything.  If you need hot water, you are better off heating it over a wood fire than using electricity. It is just ridiculously inefficient.  A DIY - sun's heat direct to water system is cheap to implement and will work much better. If you do it right, you can set it up to use and alternative source (propane, wood) to supplement the system on cloudy/cold days.
 
Quote
I just don't see how you "loose the argument" -
Sometimes it's the better part.  It's not logic it's love.

Its a wonderful to die for love. Know what is better? Living for it.  If you are depending on that Generator for water and food storage, "Love"  is not a good reason to use gasoline.

charlesoakwood

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Re: Generators in use by IAL members of 6000W +
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2012, 09:15:30 AM »
Good (I'm not imagining it!), bad (where did it go?).  Oh well, this one has legs now.   ;)

I have a feeling it's around here somewhere, but not findable because of the thread title.  That's the trouble with thread-drift; it's interesting the twists and turns a thread may take, but makes finding the desired content problematic later.

The archivist, where is the archivist?  Sectionhand brought this up some time ago.

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Re: Generators in use by IAL members of 6000W +
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2012, 09:34:11 AM »
I'm the archivist.  And I can't find it ....

Here's the thing (demonstrating thread drift now, observe):  in order to keep things in "proper" order, I'd not only have to merge threads, which I do readily but with some trepidation (don't want to offend), I'd have to slice and dice threads as well, also risking giving offense. 
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

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charlesoakwood

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Re: Generators in use by IAL members of 6000W +
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2012, 09:52:29 AM »

I understand and appreciate.  Seems continuity is not a strong suite around here. The search feature also leaves out or skips. I've entered search words that am certain exist and it comes up empty.

As to the Generator Topic, we never had one.  We just talk about them often.
Here's a few that may be helpful:

http://itsaboutliberty.com/index.php/topic,6391.msg71850.html#msg71850

http://itsaboutliberty.com/index.php/topic,23.msg56.html#msg56

http://itsaboutliberty.com/index.php/topic,23.msg61.html#msg61


http://itsaboutliberty.com/index.php/topic,23.msg69.html#msg69

Scroll to "When I got my first portable generator"  I think it's by Soup


http://itsaboutliberty.com/index.php/topic,2358.msg26728.html#msg26728

Offline Alphabet Soup

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Re: Generators in use by IAL members of 6000W +
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2012, 09:55:45 AM »
I learned long ago that if you're gonna have a fire going you oughta have a kettle heating on it. You never know when you need hot water and The heat is already there. In a (long-term) SHTF scenario I would just expand on the basic theme with a more dedicated large-capacity wood fueled boiler.

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Generators in use by IAL members of 6000W +
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2012, 10:05:14 AM »
Thanks for the info guys, perhaps after some more research I can revisit the debate anew.  I'd love to go the solar route, but I know people will be grabbing their chests at the higher outlay,

So what exactly is the disaster scenario your group is trying to address?  What standard of living are you aiming for?  If it is to survive for 7-30 days, then the gen is the way to go, and gasoline is fine. If the group is trying to provide  a longer term/sustainable system and live approximately at today's standards, then I just don't think its the answer. Electric power is not required for human survival.  You can get a hand pump ( even for a well 100 feet deep ) ) and  use wood for fuel.  Food, Water, and Shelter are all priorities over electric power.

Here is a helpful FAQ.. http://www.survivalmonkey.com/pages/generator-faq/

Running a generator continuously to power a continuous load like a freezer ( and yes you can judiciously turn it off and on as long as you don't open it and "let the cold out" )  is going to be costly in the long run - way more than the cost of panels.

1) If the TEOTWAWKI event occurs and your group assembles -  how many will still have incomes with which to buy fuel for the group?  (Savings don't count. Accounts may be frozen, or just wiped out by inflation or currency re-valuation)
2) If the TEOTWAWKI event spikes fuel prices, will your group be able to afford it?
3) If the event makes gasoline unobtainable, how much is your group willing to store and maintain? Is there someone there to use and periodically top off the fuel in the meantime, or is your group fine with chucking  200 Gallons of gas every 2 years?
4) Most generators will use 1/2 gal per hour under no load  - depending on how long you want to run it each day, the cost could be prohibitive.  Even 4 hours a day is going to be about $2500 yearly at current prices.    4 Years of that and you paid for a PV system.
4) Is the sound of the generator going to create a security issue?

Yes, a Solar  PV system is going to run more than $800 for a small gen, or $3000 for a large one. However, its quiet, solid state ( meaning slower wear and tear, and your chance of failure is less) and pays off quickly if your alternative is a gas generator.  Theft is more difficult- Panels are bulky and fairly  heavy- as are inverters and batteries. Not to mention you have to dismantle the array, cut multiple live wires etc. I got a truck and a buddy. Which do I steal? The Generator which takes 3 minutes to cut the chain,  unplug and load on the truck, or the solar system which it takes me an hour to take down and haul off?

I am the first to admit that PV solar is just stupid if you have the grid available and can afford the (still cheap)  prices  per KW-Hr. However, if you are looking for long term power without the grid- then I don't think you can do better. With cheap Batteries you are looking at 8 years of service  before you need to replace them (for current costs of around $2000) - with stupid expensive ( add another $10K ) batteries you will get 20 years.  If people are balking at the price, then they aren't serious about having reliable electric  power in Teotwawki.

Plus there are lots of ways to scale the PV system down and then grow it.Your  system is really limited by the Charge Controller/Inverter  - you can start with 1 panels and build up to 8 (or more)  - just for the price of the 200 Gallon tank of gas you need to refill every year or two.  You can use "Golf Cart" Batteries as your initial set of batts - in the right places, those are $75-100 a piece - buy just the minimum to give you the backup time you need ( most golf cart batts are 200 amp -hrs) -  that is around 40 amp-hr useable. In a 24 V system that is  about 1KW hr of "backup" - a set of 4 and you are off to the races and can run your freezer. The golf-cart batts will last 3-5 years.    So initial outlays can be in the $4-5000 range, to provide provide 2 Kw-Hrs a day - enough to keep that freezer going. Add a new panel or two every year (foreign panels are around $300 (no tax credit)  and "American made" panels are $400-500) for about the same cost as you would be putting into the gas tank for storage, and unlike the gas, the panels will keep producing for another 20 years.


I am thinking the water heater is a moot issue, if the SHTF bathing/washing will be in/from the lake or with rain water, it is my strong opinion the well should be used for cooking and drinking only.

If there is a lake, a Berkey filter will be a positive boon. A quasi permanent (outdoor)  Shower enclosure with a "Sun Shower" based heater will work fine. Its pretty easy to get hot water from the sun most days- which water you use for that (lake or well)  doesn't matter much- getting it pumped to the heating tank however will save a lot of heartache- and that is more load on the electric.  

If there is a lake, is there a stream? If so, Hydro power is the answer - It doesn't take much water flow to turn a wheel and charge a battery.