Author Topic: What is hyperinflation?  (Read 6534 times)

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Offline TheGreatDebator

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What is hyperinflation?
« on: March 22, 2011, 04:04:29 PM »
I have seen people warning of hyperinflation. What is it? And how do we measure it?

Online Libertas

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Re: What is hyperinflation?
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2011, 05:34:37 PM »
The classic definition is 100% price increase over 3 years.  Not that the Fed or the CPI is worth a damn.  (It is cooked, revised and excludes fuel and food, not that people need that to live on!)  But over the course of the past year, about 16 different commodities experienced over 25% increase in just that time period.  (See link below)  And Qualitative Easing (QE) "printing money/monetization" can exacerbate that to where it feeds on itself and grows out of control.  The Fed and Treasury are playing chicken with inflation and fiscal policy coming out of politicians isn't helping things by taking capital away just to pay interest on the debt!

http://www.finviz.com/futures_performance.ashx?v=16
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Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: What is hyperinflation?
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2011, 06:38:12 PM »
What is the justification for the CPI NOT including food and fuel in the inflationary calculation? It seems utterly illogical.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

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Re: What is hyperinflation?
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2011, 07:39:38 PM »
The only reason I can see is them claiming food and fuel prices are too "unstable" - they go uuuup/they go dowwwwn/rinse/repeat - to get a good fix on the index.  Which, to me, is all the more reason to include them, but what do I know.
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Offline TheGreatDebator

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Re: What is hyperinflation?
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2011, 09:30:06 PM »
So, assuming the Fed did calculate commodity prices into the equation, what should they do? And would that change other prices?

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Re: What is hyperinflation?
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2011, 09:47:30 PM »
So, assuming the Fed did calculate commodity prices into the equation, what should they do? And would that change other prices?

No capisce "what should they do?"

Their CPI doesn't change the price of anything; it reports.
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Offline TheGreatDebator

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Re: What is hyperinflation?
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2011, 09:55:55 PM »
Well, if prices really are rising, what should the Fed do?

charlesoakwood

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Re: What is hyperinflation?
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2011, 10:04:05 PM »
Well, if prices really are rising, what should the Fed do?

What do you think they should do?  If they print more money then the banks will have more to lend. That could help businesses to start up.
The bank is ready to lend AT&T $20 million to buy T-Mobile. That will give T-Mobile's employee's a big raise.


Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: What is hyperinflation?
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2011, 10:07:08 PM »
Well, if prices really are rising, what should the Fed do?

Stop printing money out of thin air would be one concrete thing the Fed could do. I am not knowledgeable enough to know what effect that would have on the economy as a whole, but I know enough to know that increasing the supply of fiat currency reduces the value of all currency in circulation. Printing money to pay the debt (quantitative easing) is undoubtedly inflationary. Doing it at the levels that Bernanke has authorized is very inflationary. It doesn't take much understanding of economics to see that other converging factors that have the potential of devaluing the dollar could compound the Fed's QE inflation to create a dollar devaluation spiral, and hyperinflation.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: What is hyperinflation?
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2011, 10:07:08 PM »
Well, if prices really are rising, what should the Fed do?

Die.

Libertas can answer better than I; I have only a rudimentary knowledge of the Fed.  What I do know is the Fed is not part of our government, it's a conglomerate of private bankers and it owns our money.  What we use for money now is just paper based on debt; there is no solid value backing any of it.  It is only one in a handful of players responsible for the fiscal mess that's been foisted on us.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

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Offline TheGreatDebator

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Re: What is hyperinflation?
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2011, 11:05:56 PM »
Well, if prices really are rising, what should the Fed do?

Stop printing money out of thin air would be one concrete thing the Fed could do. I am not knowledgeable enough to know what effect that would have on the economy as a whole, but I know enough to know that increasing the supply of fiat currency reduces the value of all currency in circulation. Printing money to pay the debt (quantitative easing) is undoubtedly inflationary. Doing it at the levels that Bernanke has authorized is very inflationary. It doesn't take much understanding of economics to see that other converging factors that have the potential of devaluing the dollar could compound the Fed's QE inflation to create a dollar devaluation spiral, and hyperinflation.

Well, QE (as I understand it) would only be inflationary if people spent the money that was printed. They're not doing that so far. My point is that hyperinflation doesn't seem all that likely.

Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: What is hyperinflation?
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2011, 02:44:54 AM »
Well, if prices really are rising, what should the Fed do?

Stop printing money out of thin air would be one concrete thing the Fed could do. I am not knowledgeable enough to know what effect that would have on the economy as a whole, but I know enough to know that increasing the supply of fiat currency reduces the value of all currency in circulation. Printing money to pay the debt (quantitative easing) is undoubtedly inflationary. Doing it at the levels that Bernanke has authorized is very inflationary. It doesn't take much understanding of economics to see that other converging factors that have the potential of devaluing the dollar could compound the Fed's QE inflation to create a dollar devaluation spiral, and hyperinflation.

Well, QE (as I understand it) would only be inflationary if people spent the money that was printed. They're not doing that so far. My point is that hyperinflation doesn't seem all that likely.

I'm not even close to a financial expert, but I've heard/read some experts who say that if the dollar is dropped as the international currency standard, hyperinflation is imminent. That's just one of the other "converging factors" I mentioned above that I've heard/read folks speculate could instantly devalue the dollar and begin a devaluation spiral.

By all means, if you have some insight, please share it.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

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Offline Sectionhand

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Re: What is hyperinflation?
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2011, 04:13:49 AM »
What is the justification for the CPI NOT including food and fuel in the inflationary calculation? It seems utterly illogical.

There is none . Who said government book-keeping was logical ( or honest ) ?

Offline Sectionhand

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Re: What is hyperinflation?
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2011, 04:16:02 AM »
Well, if prices really are rising, what should the Fed do?

The Fed should do absolutely nothing . Congress should act to remove measures which inhibit business expansion and new business start-up .

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Re: What is hyperinflation?
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2011, 07:27:34 AM »
The BLS compiles the CPI data, the Fed chooses to exclude food & fuel in order to get at the trend without swings.  There may be some downstream impacts into the other categories, but that is what they do, then they can look at food & fuel as separate items and make determinations as to what is driving them now and what is likely to drive them in the short, intermediate or long term horizon.  Since the numbers get messaged, if their assumptions are off, they will either undershoot (contract) or overshoot (overexpand) their growth target.  The biggest problem I have with the Fed, and the Federal government at large is they are still tragically locked into Keynesian bullsh*t!  They forget that real inflation is composed to two items - price changes and the FALLING VALUE OF MONEY!  What Debator is referring to in his post about QE is not entirely correct, he is referencing the velocity of money.  If money provided by QE was churned more, inflation could increase due to the velocity of the turnover and lead to hyperinflation.  It's like a pump pumping more air into a tire, you don't want to over-inflate the tire lest it explode.  Problem is, these Keynesian fools threw out caring about velocity back around the late 80's early 90's.  Hell, does anybody remember M1, M2 etc?  Hell no.  So would these jackasses see hyperinflation on the horizon they way they look at things now?  Probably not, it would be too late for them to act once it started showing up.  And the even bigger, ugly damn gorilla in the room is the value of money.  I'd like to hear anybody try to explain how QE is not helping to debase our currency.  I'd like to see somebody argue how intervention into currency markets no matter the reason is not debasing our currency.  And I damn well know there isn't anybody out there who can articulate how the grotesque spending binge the Proglodytes and Ruling Class have been on and the resulting massive debt load and required interest payments are not eroding the hell out of our currency!
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Re: What is hyperinflation?
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2011, 07:29:43 AM »
Well, if prices really are rising, what should the Fed do?

The Fed should do absolutely nothing . Congress should act to remove measures which inhibit business expansion and new business start-up .

The Fed should stop this QE BS.  But I agree if a pro-growth agenda (lower spending, lower taxes, lower regulation) was enacted and the deficits eliminated and serious debt retirement occurred, that would be the best all-around solution!
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Offline TheGreatDebator

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Re: What is hyperinflation?
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2011, 12:52:01 PM »
Well, if I told you that there was a room full of cash, but you didn't spend it, what impact would it have on the economy? Nothing. Just because there is more of something doesn't mean it is worth less. It has to be put to use in the economy.

Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: What is hyperinflation?
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2011, 12:55:30 PM »
Well, if I told you that there was a room full of cash, but you didn't spend it, what impact would it have on the economy? Nothing. Just because there is more of something doesn't mean it is worth less. It has to be put to use in the economy.

Right now the new QE currency is being "printed" to service the debt. What happens if/when foreign creditors begin refusing the dollar as repayment for our debt, insisting that its value has fallen too far and is too inconsistent, and instead begin requiring us to trade for a new international currency at a bad exchange rate from our point of view?
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: What is hyperinflation?
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2011, 02:23:30 PM »
IDP's point is pretty spot on.  Also, this is no different than what rulers did in olden days.  In the old days it was called debasing.  Kings collected all gold and silver in their land in return for promises to return thier coinage to them under the auspices of minting new coins.  The king would melt it all down, skim some pure metal off, add in base metals, mint the coins and return them to the people.  As far as the people are concerned, if they gave up 10 coins and got 10 coins, they think they have full value for what the surrendered, but they just got swindled.  Other nobles knew this game and would want to be cut in for a share or the king would risk open warfare with his fellow nobles.  The sheep go merrily on none the wiser.  Does that make the king's actions OK?  Did the people not get screwed?  Same applies for currency.  Supply on hand but not yet put into circulation still has a debasing effect, you just might know about it until it begins to have an effect.  This effect can best be measured by currency markets.  The dollar, for a long time, as been getting the living crap beat out of it.  To say QE does not contribute to that erosion is folly.  Does the Fed announce when or how much it releases into circulation?  Do people know this? Throw in IDP's point about getting called is valid, if they demand another form of repayment, now your basically locking in the devaluation.  Do we want government getting into currency speculation to hedge their bets?  They would dominate the market, we call it manipulation, and it is something the Left demonizes the private sector for doing.
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Re: What is hyperinflation?
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2011, 02:25:07 PM »
Also, when the stack of reserve currency is released into circulation, that is going to affect the velocity factor.
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