Topic: Why I am Catholic

[ChrstnHsbndFthr]

As for the promises:

Hebrews 10:15 And the Holy Spirit also beareth witness to us; for after he hath said,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them After those days, saith the Lord: I will put my laws on their heart, And upon their mind also will I write them; then saith he,

17 And their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus,

20 by the way which he dedicated for us, a new and living way, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

21 and having a great priest over the house of God;

22 let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience: and having our body washed with pure water,

23 let us hold fast the confession of our hope that it waver not; for he is faithful that promised:

24 and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works;

25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another; and so much the more, as ye see the day drawing nigh.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,

27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.

28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses:

29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

[IronDioPriest]

My point is broad, and it is that when we are tempted to put God in a box with boundaries of doctrine, His word is rife with reminders that He alone is God, and He is not nor has he ever been boxed in by our sectarian definitions. I do not mention the thief as an object for theological parsing, but as a reminder that just when we think we have all the rules figured out, God is there to remind us that the concept of salvation through Christ is really quite simple by design, and that as God, He can strip our doctrine away in an instant; His hand is mightier than our rules.

I do not dispute anything you say regarding Christian theology, CHF. I believe what you believe - I am a former Catholic, who has been born again.

But I simply refuse to stand in opposition to my Christian Catholic brothers and sisters and tell them that they worship God the wrong way in the wrong church, any more than I will stand aside and listen to Catholics send the entirety of Protestantism to purgatory. I must, in my opinion, highlight the ugliness of such carping.

If Christians grasp John 3:16 and hold its meaning close to their hearts and accept the salvation that flows from Jesus, the traditions and doctrines of their sect is between them and God, and God is interested in the hearts of men, not our institutions. It is men who are determined to call themselves right and others wrong using theological minutia as their proof.

I don't do that. That's all I'm saying. I don't do that, and I'm explaining why I don't. Obviously you guys do. I'm different than you.

[ChrstnHsbndFthr]

IDP, There is even more agreement between us than you realize, and to be fair, I believe CC also has said fairly clearly that he believes that those he views as protestants are Christians in the sight of God, he simply believes that they have error that needs to be studied away.  (paraphrased understanding of what he said a completely different way and also I do not count myself a protestant, but rather just a Christian, but I assume he would think of me as a protestant) Most of our discussion is really about how to love God more, by searching the scriptures to understand his will and obey him more clearly.  I can discuss the concept of "how much error is acceptable" for hours and have many times.  I pray that a LOT is acceptable, because I learn more every single day. The confession that I was wrong yesterday and the day before and the day before, leads one to believe there are things yet today that I do not understand and therefore I am not in obedience on those issues. Facing that, I am left with the choice that my salvation is impossible, or that with God all things are possible. The other concept is weighing with equal measures.  I cannot say that I hope for mercy for my own error and condemn others for theirs. So, our goal as we move along the path of life together is to study more each day, to apply what we learn, and keep our focus on God. I have no right to condemn anyone and do not, as that belongs to God alone. I admit that there are things that concern me and I encourage people to learn more on those issues. But notice no one in this discussion has condemned anyone to hell. The entire focus has been on better serving God through study, understanding, and obedience. Jesus said those who love him obey him. To obey we must understand and to understand we must study.

[CatholicCrusader]

8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Jives with my understanding of the "basics"!   

As I said in another post: My response to this will take up a whole page, so instead I will link you to probably the best response I have ever heard, this OP: http://www.true2ourselves.com/forum/bible-chat/6095-call-no-man-father-scripture-doesn-t-say.html

A) I don't get it.  Change the word from "call" to "summon", how does that materially change the meaning?  It in fact makes it even more confusing.

B) Going back to original texts, language and meanings opens up an entirely new can of worms because many biblical scholars and various clergy cannot even agree to what should be used and what the meaning should be.

C) Are there other opinions on this?  If so, what are they?

C) Try this then: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/call-no-man-father

[CatholicCrusader]

The Lordship belongs to Christ. Not men..........

Have I ever suggested otherwise?

And yet, the Bible is crystal clear that Jesus gives authority to men for several purposes.

[Libertas]

8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.

Jives with my understanding of the "basics"!  

As I said in another post: My response to this will take up a whole page, so instead I will link you to probably the best response I have ever heard, this OP: http://www.true2ourselves.com/forum/bible-chat/6095-call-no-man-father-scripture-doesn-t-say.html

A) I don't get it.  Change the word from "call" to "summon", how does that materially change the meaning?  It in fact makes it even more confusing.

B) Going back to original texts, language and meanings opens up an entirely new can of worms because many biblical scholars and various clergy cannot even agree to what should be used and what the meaning should be.

C) Are there other opinions on this?  If so, what are they?

C) Try this then: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/call-no-man-father

There's a lot of nuance there, even for latter day people who are arguably more literate and knowledgeable than our early Christian brethren, so while the original intent of calling leaders "father" and followers "sons and daughters" might have been innocent and its meaning plain...one has to admit that the practice of calling clergy "father" and the Pope "Holy Father" fosters an air of divine authority with it that can often be seen as superceding any familial context in ones relationship with Roman Catholic clergy, yes?  Especially so when one bows, kneels and kisses a ring.  One persons innocent symbolism is another persons bizarre and unnecessary ritual.  Kinda like this link that refers to protestant as a "Fundamentalist anti-Catholic", I don't know the gentlemen in question but for arguments sake let us agree the protestant is anti-Catholic, is it helpful to assign that label?  If so it must be equally correct to call Catholics anti-Protestant Papists.  How does this help advance Christianity or polite dialogue?

[CatholicCrusader]

Overcoming roadblocks to the Catholic Faith

[IronDioPriest]

I was raised in the Catholic Church, from baptism through confirmation. It was a dead faith to me. It was a place for me to learn bible stories and a social club for my parents. The reality of Jesus Christ or the profound reality of his sacrifice, resurrection, and resulting salvation was never impressed upon me in any way to which I could relate or understand.

After confirmation - when my Catholic Catechism was complete, and I was entrusted with my own faith, it was the easiest thing in the world for me to walk away. In my mind, I left absolutely nothing behind but empty rhetoric about a religion based on a God I could not see, feel, touch, or hear.

Then I went to a Young Life Christian camp with a buddy, just for the heck of it, because I thought it would be fun, and there would be chicks. There, I met the living Jesus Christ. I faced my own sinful nature, repented for it, acknowledged the Lordship of Jesus, and asked Him for the forgiveness that I now understood He had already given.

Then, I walked away from Him. For about 24 years, I lived outside of God's will entirely, and put Jesus out of my mind. For that flickering moment at 16 I knew Jesus, but I succumbed to other spiritual forces.

At 40, I had a calling on my heart to come back to Jesus. It was a process, and working through it was a long (short in some ways) discovery. But at some point I was forced to look back at a long period of my life, and have a reckoning. I recommitted my life to Christ, repenting for walking away from the commitment I made when I was 16.

As I came back into relationship with Christ, I realized that from the moment I gave my life to Him at the Young Life camp, He had never, ever abandoned me. He never left me, I left Him, and He stayed nonetheless.

One could point to the foundation I received in the Catholic Church as the basis for what God planted and sewed later. In my heart, I cannot discount this. But I can clearly note a demarcation between two stages in my life, and it is not before I recommitted and after, but rather, before I committed the first time, and after.

The passing of almost a decade since I recommitted my heart to Christ has provided a perspective that lumps everything before 16 into a faithless, Godless existence, and everything after 16 into a life blessed by God, guided by Holy Spirit.

The promises He makes are real. Those promises exist outside of church walls and sectarian doctrine. Based on what I know of His hand in my life, I am as certain of this as a man can be.

I suppose that makes me a heretic. I can deal with that.

[Libertas]

You're definitely not alone IDP, apart from leaving the Catholic Church after baptism (parents choice) my story isn't so different!   

[IronDioPriest]

Sometimes I am amazed at how it is possible that after 16 years of Catholic indoctrination, I failed to grasp the first thing about the concept of salvation - but after a simple prayer offered in heartfelt repentance, Christ came into focus as a living God, and never left my side, even when I was undeserving.

[ChrstnHsbndFthr]

We can pray that ALL of us continue to grow, both in our faith and our love for Christ as expressed through our efforts to obey him.  I think this has been a great thread.  We gain understanding of one another and we grow in knowledge of the scriptures and even understand more about the doctrines of men and why they think the way they do. Understanding is never a bad thing.  And we find areas of agreement, threads of hope, between all of us that have posted here.  Let God work his will and we will all be happier still.

[Libertas]

The hardest thing is admitting your weakness in not being able to do (fill in the blank) all by yourself and understanding why (fill in the blank) happens to us despite out best efforts to avoid or prepare for it...a Higher Power is at work and there is a purpose to His will even though we may not understand at the time what it is.  For a hardheaded headstrong guy like me some things are inescapable and indescribable in a normal rational sense.  We did not fall out of trees or ooze from primordial soup, there is an elegant and power force at work in the affairs of Man, and it is not a mistake or a random act.  I am far from perfect and yet He loves me.

 

ETA - And I have to echo CHF here, I have to admit that this discussion has been beneficial for my own understanding and faith, and for that I want to thank everyone for participating in the discussion.

    

[Pandora]

The hardest thing is admitting your weakness in not being able to do (fill in the blank) all by yourself and understanding why (fill in the blank) happens to us despite out best efforts to avoid or prepare for it...a Higher Power is at work and there is a purpose to His will even though we may not understand at the time what it is.  For a hardheaded headstrong guy like me some things are inescapable and indescribable in a normal rational sense.  We did not fall out of trees or ooze from primordial soup, there is an elegant and power force at work in the affairs of Man, and it is not a mistake or a random act.  I am far from perfect and yet He loves me.

 

ETA - And I have to echo CHF here, I have to admit that this discussion has been beneficial for my own understanding and faith, and for that I want to thank everyone for participating in the discussion.

    

He loves me even when I don't love me, and there's been a lotta that goin' on 'round my house these days.

[Libertas]

The hardest thing is admitting your weakness in not being able to do (fill in the blank) all by yourself and understanding why (fill in the blank) happens to us despite out best efforts to avoid or prepare for it...a Higher Power is at work and there is a purpose to His will even though we may not understand at the time what it is.  For a hardheaded headstrong guy like me some things are inescapable and indescribable in a normal rational sense.  We did not fall out of trees or ooze from primordial soup, there is an elegant and power force at work in the affairs of Man, and it is not a mistake or a random act.  I am far from perfect and yet He loves me.

 

ETA - And I have to echo CHF here, I have to admit that this discussion has been beneficial for my own understanding and faith, and for that I want to thank everyone for participating in the discussion.

    

He loves me even when I don't love me, and there's been a lotta that goin' on 'round my house these days.

You and me both, sister. 

Someday maybe I'll learn not to make things harder than they have to be...      But that is only slightly more likely than me shutting my big mouth...   

But as Popeye would say "I y'am what I y'am".  It is a good thing God is so forgiving, otherwise... 

[CatholicCrusader]

I was raised in the Catholic Church, from baptism through confirmation. It was a dead faith to me..............

With all due respect, thats your fault, not the Church's fault.

There are too many beautiful Catholics and wonderful Catholics spanning the ages that prove that Catholicism, when practiced, is a light unto humanity.

Sometimes I am amazed at how it is possible that after 16 years of Catholic indoctrination, I failed to grasp the first thing about the concept of salvation - but after a simple prayer offered in heartfelt repentance, Christ came into focus as a living God, and never left my side, even when I was undeserving.

Kinda like how Democrats fail to grasp why lowering taxes actually raises revenues, and other simple things, but they can lock on to one word like "Change" and think that such a simplicity answers all questions.

You went to Mass every Sunday I take it. Every Sunday you said the Lord's Prayer; every Sunday you said alloud, "Lord I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed.," Every Sunday you sang the Psalms and heard the readings..........   ....the reason the faith was dead to you is because you failed to embrace it. Then you heard some overly simplistic idea and grabbed it. As I said, thats your fault, not the Church's fault.

[Weisshaupt]

Then you heard some overly simplistic idea and grabbed it. As I said, that is your fault, not the Church's fault.

A a matter of historical fact, the early churches and dogma of the Apostles were  simple. So simple, in fact, that no one felt the need to write down or clarify  anything for about 200 years.  I am not sure the modern complexity of a church and its teachings are  a good measure of its closeness to the original teachings of Christ.

[IronDioPriest]

I was raised in the Catholic Church, from baptism through confirmation. It was a dead faith to me..............

With all due respect, thats your fault, not the Church's fault.

Is it? I attended mass every Sunday, all the appropriate holidays, and Wednesday night catechism for 16 years, received all the sacraments, went through every scrap of indoctrination just like I was told, and it was MY fault - at 16 years old - that this education about the gospel of Jesus Christ was never made to come alive in my heart? It's MY fault that I was never able to draw a line between the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ and my own salvation?

Look, the fact that it became crystal clear in one moment of heartfelt prayer and repentance outside the Catholic church is all the proof I need, friend. Your church failed me. Jesus saved me.

Your church is good for you, and many others, and I respect that. But it failed me, utterly.

[IronDioPriest]

...You went to Mass every Sunday I take it. Every Sunday you said the Lord's Prayer; every Sunday you said alloud, "Lord I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed.," Every Sunday you sang the Psalms and heard the readings..........   ....the reason the faith was dead to you is because you failed to embrace it.

No sir. The reason the faith was dead to me is because the living Christ - the Christ that is alive, and dwells in the hearts of men - was never introduced to me by those the church employed to teach me.

Kinda like how Democrats fail to grasp why lowering taxes actually raises revenues, and other simple things, but they can lock on to one word like "Change" and think that such a simplicity answers all questions.

You went to Mass every Sunday I take it. Every Sunday you said the Lord's Prayer; every Sunday you said alloud, "Lord I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed.," Every Sunday you sang the Psalms and heard the readings..........   ....the reason the faith was dead to you is because you failed to embrace it. Then you heard some overly simplistic idea and grabbed it. As I said, thats your fault, not the Church's fault.

And this, my devout Catholic friend, is why I voiced my opposition to a thread like this in the very first place. It can never, ever, ever come to fruition without insulting anothers deeply held beliefs.

You are comparing my deeply held faith to the mindless meanderings of a liberal Democrat? I'd like to give you the opportunity to rethink and restate that.

[IronDioPriest]

...Then you heard some overly simplistic idea and grabbed it. As I said, thats your fault, not the Church's fault.

This, coming from a man whose church was built upon the systematic institutional ignorance of its earliest congregants by the forbidding of education, and the obfuscation of teaching in a dead language until the 20th century.

[Libertas]

Ahhh, the old Infallibility argument.  

The Church cannot do any wrong, only people can be wrong, but since people comprise a Church, how can a Church avoid wrong people, and how can those wrong people have their wrongs overlooked unless the Church allows the truth not to be known?

Jesus is the only infallible person I know, no others exist.