Author Topic: Why I am Catholic  (Read 20939 times)

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CatholicCrusader

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2012, 02:40:51 PM »
This is one of the problems that I tend to have with the entire concept.  I believe and accept a man named Christ lived, preached and said pretty much what is given in the New Testament.  But I have also played "Telephone" - the New Testament wasn't written down for generations after his death. Add in the failings of man, the temptation to bend those words to aggrandize ones own position and power,  and  both intentional and unintentional translation mistakes through at least 3 languages, and the chances that the written words that have reached us are the exact ones Jesus spoke are pretty remote.........

If were were talking about anything else, like the works of Plato or Virgil, I might agree with you.

But in this case you are leaving out the most important "ingredient": GOD.

The scriptures are written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. If you take God out of the picture then sure, you can find a million reasons to pick the Bible apart, beccause without God the Bible is just another book.

But God is not out of the picture, the Bible is not just another book, and Jesus was not just some nice guy who said profound things. Jesus is the Son of God, God come in the flesh. Jesus is fully God and fully man, two natures perfectly joined in one being. He is the center of the Universe.

Now sure, some Bible translations may have translators errors, and there are some crappy translations out there. But it is not hard to find a translation that is faithful to the original texts.

Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2012, 03:15:14 PM »
CC, there is no doubt that Paul told them what he KNEW himself. Study and you will find, as I showed you in the scripture, that he was NOT taught by oral tradition, but rather divine inspiration. He was an apostle, as though one born out of season, but Jesus appeared to him directly. And the other apostles accepted him. He even stood and rebuked the other Apostles in Jerusalem over the circumcision issue. And the others Accepted his correction.

That is wholly different from what was aptly called the "telephone game." The concept of new revelation is to be rejected by reasoning men. It allows us to constantly reinterpret. God does not change.  There is pressure on the Pope every day to change the word of God. And often they do.  But, it is my contention that they do so in violation of the scriptures, not because someone found some dusty tradition that had been forgotten.  Again, God does not change, nor does his word.

Yes, certainly, Paul had taught many Christians directly, telling them by mouth what he later wrote to remind them of, but that is not an excuse to ignore the written word. Our memories may fail us. Our consciences betray us as do the desires of our heart, but the word stands. 

As for the accuracy of scripture, that can be established in many physical ways. Scripture has been around a long time, copied and recopied, translated into many languages, spread over all the earth, and then translated back again...and yet there are very few words even that are disputed from one text to another. None that significantly affect the doctrine. The word of God stands firm. The words of men are like dandelion spores spreading on the wind. One never knows where they will end up.  And the rock stands as a firm foundation for us.  I have no faith in claims of an oral tradition of 2000 years and more, that changes from time to time, as compared to the unchanging written word of God. 

If you want to prove my point by the way, look into the acceptable recipe for unleavened bread and read of the rabbi's discussions on this. Are we willing to accept traditions or let the bible speak?  Again, simple enough for me to allow God's word to speak and the words of men float away on the wind.
“My mission today is to go forth and tell people about why I follow Christ and also what the Bible teaches, and part of that teaching is that women and men are meant to be together.

“However, I would never treat anyone with disrespect just because they are different from me. We are all created by the Almighty and like Him, I love all of humanity. We would all be better off if we loved God and loved each other.”
Phil Robertson an elder in the church of Christ

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2012, 03:27:31 PM »
If were were talking about anything else, like the works of Plato or Virgil, I might agree with you.
But in this case you are leaving out the most important "ingredient": GOD.
The scriptures are written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

The scriptures weren't even written by the apostles. They were written by someone else at least 100 years later based on an oral tradition that was divinely inspired. How do we know they were written with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

But God is not out of the picture, the Bible is not just another book, and Jesus was not just some nice guy who said profound things. Jesus is the Son of God, God come in the flesh. Jesus is fully God and fully man, two natures perfectly joined in one being. He is the center of the Universe.

So God and/or Jesus was standing over every Monk, Historian and copier and guided that particular translation to perfection? How come they didn't help out those who produced the imperfect and bad translations you admit exist? How is one to know the good translations from the bad? Apparently even the Church can't tell:

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/u-s-catholic-bishops-update-bible-translation-remove-booty-virgin/

So which was God's Own word- "Virgin" or "young woman"? - I think we can agree they are not synonymous. So was the bible wrong before? Or is it wrong now? Or is that version of the bible wrong and always has been?  Is the Bible a "living Document" as the Liberals like to believe the Constitution is- free to be "updated" to "fit with the times?" Is this the first time the Catholic Church has made such revisions? The Truth of God doesn't change, but  Language does,  and it is very imprecise by its nature- making it a horrible means of conveying "truth" through the centuries.

Given this revision is happening today, how is one to know that the original traditions were faithfully committed to paper in the first place? How are we to know that the men who produced the first Cannonized testament selected the correct  texts, and rejected the incorrect ones?   As I said, one could ( and you did)  argue that God has protected his word through the centuries, but the presence of bad or false editions simply proves that such protection is,  at the very least, wanting.  Since God would not be found wanting for any particular exercise of his power, One can only presume God wanted (or at least allows)  the ambiguity - the false texts spread with the true. Like the flaming letters in the sky, false or bad translations of the bible could erupt suddenly into flames, give an electric shock as you open them, or entail any number of divine warnings to leave them be. They do not. Again, I pose there is good cause for introspection on that fact.

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2012, 03:41:44 PM »
Scripture has been around a long time, copied and recopied, translated into many languages, spread over all the earth, and then translated back again...and yet there are very few words even that are disputed from one text to another. None that significantly affect the doctrine.

Whose doctrine? Not all sects of Christianity even agree on which texts compose the bible. When you drop entire texts that is a whole bunch of words in dispute is it not? If there weren't differences in opinion about the meanings of the words themselves and the traditions they imply, then the reformation wouldn't have happened, and all of the different sects wouldn't exist.

The word of God stands firm. The words of men are like dandelion spores spreading on the wind. One never knows where they will end up.  And the rock stands as a firm foundation for us.

God's truths don't change, but the  imperfect understanding of men does. Just because something is written down, doesn't make it unchanging- for the world itself will change around it. This isn't to say that truth isn't to be found in a modern bible, or that even a significant portion is untrue - only that it is and must be mixed with the imperfection of 2000 years of men,and will be until Heaven itself  issues its own authoritative edition. And it hasn't. There are no letters from Jesus, no Book of Jesus - only the tales told of him by the apostles- who could only report what they saw and actually  understood. God sent his  own son to  Earth, and while here, he did not spend even a minute of his time committing God's words to paper that we know of.  Again, this is another  opportunity for introspection.

« Last Edit: September 11, 2012, 04:06:03 PM by Weisshaupt »

Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2012, 03:56:42 PM »
...If were were talking about anything else, like the works of Plato or Virgil, I might agree with you.

But in this case you are leaving out the most important "ingredient": GOD.

The scriptures are written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. If you take God out of the picture then sure, you can find a million reasons to pick the Bible apart, beccause without God the Bible is just another book.

But God is not out of the picture, the Bible is not just another book, and Jesus was not just some nice guy who said profound things. Jesus is the Son of God, God come in the flesh. Jesus is fully God and fully man, two natures perfectly joined in one being. He is the center of the Universe.

I agree with your assertion entirely. But to someone who is struggling to figure things out, and isn't fully "there" yet with the faith required to make this assertion with confidence, it is just an assertion.

The truth should be preached, and not watered down. But for unbelievers or seekers, it needs to be more than an assertion, or minds close. At least mine did, before I became a Christian. I was never less than a seeker of truth, but before I made a decision for Jesus Christ, hearing people make assertions sounded like little more than Charlie Brown's parents.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

CatholicCrusader

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2012, 04:14:23 PM »
I agree with your assertion entirely. But to someone who is struggling to figure things out, and isn't fully "there" yet with the faith required to make this assertion with confidence, it is just an assertion............

True. Thats is why someone must first hear the call of God and answer the call in their heart. That does not come from a book, is comes from the spirit. God called Abraham from the desert before there were any books.

Once a person believes, then they can read the Bible and appreciate it.

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #26 on: September 11, 2012, 04:43:21 PM »
I agree with your assertion entirely. But to someone who is struggling to figure things out, and isn't fully "there" yet with the faith required to make this assertion with confidence, it is just an assertion............

True. Thats is why someone must first hear the call of God and answer the call in their heart. That does not come from a book, is comes from the spirit. God called Abraham from the desert before there were any books.

Once a person believes, then they can read the Bible and appreciate it.

That is basically the point I was trying to get to. Faith comes from inside. God's relationship is with individuals, not  churches. Jesus taught us to pray directly to God.  I have seen the word and truth of God in many things, places, and people - not just in the bible. God provided us with no written proof, no writing in the sky, no supernatural effects and even his own son wrote nothing down while he was here. God wants us to find the truth through faith, not bring us to faith through truth.

"You don't fix faith River,  Faith fixes you."

The Bible IS just a book. It is God in your heart that makes it more. There was a lot going on with Luther, but I believe that was the fundamental truth behind the reformation. I do not need a priest in order to confess my sins, nor do I believe the Pope (or any other clergy) is infallible. The very fact that indulgences were ever sold is proof enough of the potential vileness of men- especially men with power and control of wealth.One could argue that those were not "true" men of God, but you know that because of your faith in Godand your personal relationship with him, because everyone else around those men at the time would have told you otherwise.

The Apple gave us Knowledge of Good and Evil, and God has been trying to teach us to see  and know the difference ever since.





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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #27 on: September 11, 2012, 04:47:44 PM »
I agree with your assertion entirely. But to someone who is struggling to figure things out, and isn't fully "there" yet with the faith required to make this assertion with confidence, it is just an assertion............

True. Thats is why someone must first hear the call of God and answer the call in their heart. That does not come from a book, is comes from the spirit. God called Abraham from the desert before there were any books.

Once a person believes, then they can read the Bible and appreciate it.

That is basically the point I was trying to get to. Faith comes from inside. God's relationship is with individuals, not  churches. Jesus taught us to pray directly to God.  I have seen the word and truth of God in many things, places, and people - not just in the bible. God provided us with no written proof, no writing in the sky, no supernatural effects and even his own son wrote nothing down while he was here. God wants us to find the truth through faith, not bring us to faith through truth.

"You don't fix faith River,  Faith fixes you."

The Bible IS just a book. It is God in your heart that makes it more. There was a lot going on with Luther, but I believe that was the fundamental truth behind the reformation. I do not need a priest in order to confess my sins, nor do I believe the Pope (or any other clergy) is infallible. The very fact that indulgences were ever sold is proof enough of the potential vileness of men- especially men with power and control of wealth.One could argue that those were not "true" men of God, but you know that because of your faith in Godand your personal relationship with him, because everyone else around those men at the time would have told you otherwise.

The Apple gave us Knowledge of Good and Evil, and God has been trying to teach us to see  and know the difference ever since.

I knew I wasn't the only one who saw it this way.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2012, 06:52:21 PM »
I reject the concept that the bible can be re-interpreted. God lives. His son, the WORD and He are One.  I believe in His protection of his word. The truth is there and discernible for those who will look. Those who wish to change God;s word are in error.
“My mission today is to go forth and tell people about why I follow Christ and also what the Bible teaches, and part of that teaching is that women and men are meant to be together.

“However, I would never treat anyone with disrespect just because they are different from me. We are all created by the Almighty and like Him, I love all of humanity. We would all be better off if we loved God and loved each other.”
Phil Robertson an elder in the church of Christ

CatholicCrusader

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2012, 07:19:22 PM »
I reject the concept that the bible can be re-interpreted.

What do you mean RE-interpreted. Every time you read it you interpret it. In fact, thats the cause of denominationalism, everybody reading the Bible and coming up with their own opinion. Thats why Jesus chose Apostles to teach, not books to hand out. The Church Jesus established is a "teaching" Church. His mandate to the Apostles was to teach, preach, and baptise (Matthew 28:19-20).

God lives. His son, the WORD and He are One.
Actullay, the Son IS the Word: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.... ....The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us" (John 1:1,14))

Those who wish to change God;s word are in error.
I don't know who does that.
On the other hand, I do know that protestant removed books from the Old Testament, so thats not too good. Read: LINK

Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2012, 08:24:35 PM »
Okay, some of this is so basic that I did not take the time to explain it. The word means what it means. God is no respecter of persons. There is not one standard fro me and one for you. It means exactly what it means whether you are reading it or I am reading it. Certainly it is true that to whom much is given, much is expected, but the meaning does not change. One may have a deeper, fuller understanding. The meaning was always there. it cannot and SHOULD NOT be changed by men to accommodate their moods and ideas. In other words, if homosexuality was proscribed by scripture under the new covenant, it is still proscribed today. No pope or church council or whatever they might call themselves, has any right or authority to change that.
Actually the order is to teach, baptize, and teach. But all that is based on the word, not any man's opinion. When you say the church has authority you by necessity remove that authority from Christ, who is reigning as King, seated upon the throne of heaven, and it is my opinion from long study of scripture that he does not abide that.

Yes, the Son is the Word. Without doubt. He is also God, without doubt. And without doubt, according to scripture, there is ONLY one God. This is difficult to understand and a long discussion can ensue from here. I think it would distract from our premise, which is that you can determine the true church by comparing it to the descriptions which identify it.  The discussion of monotheism vs. polytheism is too long and distended for this venue, I think. (one God as opposed to multiple gods.) And in truth, I do not think we have an issue in this. Having dealt with various Catholics over time, they usually understand this issue on a basic level, they simply express it differently than I do.
It is an erroneous understanding to claim that protestants "removed" books. (Though, I am NOT a protestant, I think I understand this in a general sense.)  We all look to a given book and determine whether we believe it to be scripture, or the words of men. It is absolutely true there were many other "writings" available at the time. Many of them made no claim to be scripture.  Some of them discuss only history, some just love stories, or whatever. These books are sometimes called Apocryphal books, but none of them have any impact on theology. Some may be helpful in understanding history, or culture, but it is clear enough to the impartial observer that they are not Inspired by God.  For example Josephus wrote some historical books. I find them quite valuable for gaining understanding, but of no value for understanding God's will in my life.   I have personally read each of the Apocryphal books long ago and do not feel i am missing anything by not carrying them with me each day for personal study.

I reject the concept that the bible can be re-interpreted.

What do you mean RE-interpreted. Every time you read it you interpret it. In fact, thats the cause of denominationalism, everybody reading the Bible and coming up with their own opinion. Thats why Jesus chose Apostles to teach, not books to hand out. The Church Jesus established is a "teaching" Church. His mandate to the Apostles was to teach, preach, and baptise (Matthew 28:19-20).

God lives. His son, the WORD and He are One.
Actullay, the Son IS the Word: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.... ....The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us" (John 1:1,14))

Those who wish to change God;s word are in error.
I don't know who does that.
On the other hand, I do know that protestant removed books from the Old Testament, so thats not too good. Read: LINK
“My mission today is to go forth and tell people about why I follow Christ and also what the Bible teaches, and part of that teaching is that women and men are meant to be together.

“However, I would never treat anyone with disrespect just because they are different from me. We are all created by the Almighty and like Him, I love all of humanity. We would all be better off if we loved God and loved each other.”
Phil Robertson an elder in the church of Christ

Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2012, 06:54:48 AM »
It's really quite simple.

Quote
John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him* should not perish, but have everlasting life.

*True Church

"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline Libertas

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2012, 07:04:31 AM »
It's really quite simple.

Quote
John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him* should not perish, but have everlasting life.

*True Church



 ::thumbsup::

Simple!
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

CatholicCrusader

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2012, 07:14:31 AM »
Okay. We have some serious misconceptions here of what the Church is.

In the Old Testament, the Hebrews were called the People of God, which is more acurately translated as the Family of God. My means of "covenant" (covenants being how outsiders were brought into families by the Hebrews) the Hebrews were brought into God's famly, thus making him their "Father".

In the Bible there are six covenants: Adamic, Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic, and the New Covenant in Christ. And we see that each covenant casts its net wider: Two people, a family, a tribe, the 12 tribes, a Kingdom, and finally the whole world. This is God's plan of salvation, and this is why it is so critical to understand that to be a Christian is not about "are you saved" or "a personal relationship", but rather it is about being part of the Family of God and an adopted son/daughter of the Father.

This is the Church, under ther new and final covenant. We are the Family of God. Thats why we call each other brother and sister, and why we call God "Father". Thats why the Church has feasts and special days, as any family would

Being a Christian is not just some personal relationship with Jesus, a phrase coined by evangelicals only in recent history. Its about being part of a Family. Its about showing up to the family meal (Sunday Mass communion), and celibrating on the familiy's special days. I have heard people say, "The church is inside of me." Frankly, that's hogwash, and a non-sequitur. The Church is far far more than that.

Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2012, 09:24:32 AM »
Okay. We have some serious misconceptions here of what the Church is.

In the Old Testament, the Hebrews were called the People of God, which is more acurately translated as the Family of God. My means of "covenant" (covenants being how outsiders were brought into families by the Hebrews) the Hebrews were brought into God's famly, thus making him their "Father".

In the Bible there are six covenants: Adamic, Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic, and the New Covenant in Christ. And we see that each covenant casts its net wider: Two people, a family, a tribe, the 12 tribes, a Kingdom, and finally the whole world. This is God's plan of salvation, and this is why it is so critical to understand that to be a Christian is not about "are you saved" or "a personal relationship", but rather it is about being part of the Family of God and an adopted son/daughter of the Father.

This is the Church, under ther new and final covenant. We are the Family of God. Thats why we call each other brother and sister, and why we call God "Father". Thats why the Church has feasts and special days, as any family would

Being a Christian is not just some personal relationship with Jesus, a phrase coined by evangelicals only in recent history. Its about being part of a Family. Its about showing up to the family meal (Sunday Mass communion), and celibrating on the familiy's special days. I have heard people say, "The church is inside of me." Frankly, that's hogwash, and a non-sequitur. The Church is far far more than that.


No sir. You are describing what it is to be a member of the Catholic Church. And you are averring Catholic doctrine as Christian truth, and expecting non-Catholics to accept it because you aver it.

This is why I hesitate to move forward with threads like this. They inevitably boil down to Christians telling each other that their sect is wrong.

If you want to engage in Catholic boosterism, you have an open forum to do so, right here. But please, avoid telling other Christians that the faith they hold is false faith.

I would ask the same of anyone who would tell you that yours is false.

John 3:16. It is plain to me.

ETA: It strikes me that a more accurate title for what this thread has quickly grown into would be "Why I am a true Christian and you are not."

 ::bashing::

« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 09:28:18 AM by IronDioPriest »
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2012, 10:12:41 AM »
In the Old Testament, the Hebrews were called the People of God, which is more acurately translated as the Family of God. My means of "covenant" (covenants being how outsiders were brought into families by the Hebrews) the Hebrews were brought into God's famly, thus making him their "Father".

Hmm, it would appear that the words do matter. If God protected his word, why does it not translate as "Family of God" in the written text, if that is what is meant?

Being a Christian is not just some personal relationship with Jesus, a phrase coined by evangelicals only in recent history. Its about being part of a Family. Its about showing up to the family meal (Sunday Mass communion), and celibrating on the familiy's special days. I have heard people say, "The church is inside of me." Frankly, that's hogwash, and a non-sequitur. The Church is far far more than that.

If you have a Brother, cousin, sister etc who never show up for family meals, are they considered no longer part of your family?  I have cut off all contact with my Mother, Father and Sister because they are selfish, narcissistic, immoral jerks whom I want no where near my children. but I wouldn't claim they weren't part of my "family".  What of the Prodigal Son? Was he no longer "family" during the period that  he didn't come to dinner?

The New Covenant under Jesus, also came with new rules.  I am certainly not a Bible Scholar, so please correct me, but I don't believe Jesus every prayed in Public or with a large group. He sought solitude and quiet.  That to me implies a personal relationship with God, with no intermediary,  not even  Jesus himself. No Ritual is required, only and open, honest and quiet heart. Certainly the Covenant of Jesus carries with it many rules as to how to treat and interact with your new and extended family- but many, if not most, of those rules applied to Christians and non-Christians alike. Jesus repeatedly pointed out that the one family everyone belonged to was "Sinner", and that should always be remembered when dealing with others.  It seems one of the most common metaphors for the Church in the New Testament is that of "Christ's Body" -  members of the church are part of Christ's body- of which he is the head. A Body is a  the mechanism by which you manipulate things here in the real world - you are Christ's mouth, ears, eyes and hands.  Your  connection to him, to the head,  is spiritual, and nothing at all to do with a Brick and Mortar building.  The Sacrament of Communion - the communal sharing of Christ's body, is probably the best definition of a "Church", as symbolic ( or actual- I am not going to quibble)  of becoming part of the body of Christ.  The fellowship and relationships formed during such times are certainly valuable, but such fellowship and goodwill are not reserved for the membership of the "church"  If one never shows up or partakes in  communion, I suppose one could claim that they are denied membership in the Church. However, I am not able to find anything suggesting that the ritual of Communion cannot be practiced alone, or that it requires ordained clergy.. again, I am no scholar, so please enlighten me..

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2012, 10:23:34 AM »

No sir. You are describing what it is to be a member of the Catholic Church. And you are averring Catholic doctrine as Christian truth, and expecting non-Catholics to accept it because you aver it. This is why I hesitate to move forward with threads like this. They inevitably boil down to Christians telling each other that their sect is wrong.

Perhaps, but I don't think its gotten nasty - at least not so far.  I often find it useful to be challenged by differently lines of thought, and trying to answer the questions asserted... even if all parties walk away even more convinced that they are "right"

The current proposition is considering what, exactly constitutes a "Church" , and I think its an interesting discussion. Maybe I don't mind so much just because I don't have a dog in this hunt - being a non-Christian by almost every sect's definition of one.  However, all I have seen so far is respectful statement of personal beliefs, and until I see the "You better change your ways or you are burning in eternal hell fire!!!" sentiment,  I think we are doing okay. 

Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2012, 10:33:42 AM »

No sir. You are describing what it is to be a member of the Catholic Church. And you are averring Catholic doctrine as Christian truth, and expecting non-Catholics to accept it because you aver it. This is why I hesitate to move forward with threads like this. They inevitably boil down to Christians telling each other that their sect is wrong.

Perhaps, but I don't think its gotten nasty - at least not so far.  I often find it useful to be challenged by differently lines of thought, and trying to answer the questions asserted... even if all parties walk away even more convinced that they are "right"

The current proposition is considering what, exactly constitutes a "Church" , and I think its an interesting discussion. Maybe I don't mind so much just because I don't have a dog in this hunt - being a non-Christian by almost every sect's definition of one.  However, all I have seen so far is respectful statement of personal beliefs, and until I see the "You better change your ways or you are burning in eternal hell fire!!!" sentiment,  I think we are doing okay. 


Good points, and I should say that I haven't seen anyone cross the line either - which is why this thread is still open.

I reiterate that any point of view is welcome regarding ones own faith. I am suggesting we find ways to do it without telling other Christians that their faith is false. Here's why.

Christian unity is required now more than ever if humanity is to survive the evil onslaught now faced by good and decent Christians. Intellectual debates over the falsehood of someone else's Christian faith serve the cause of dividing Christians - doing the devil's work.

Joshua 24:15 "...as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2012, 10:42:18 AM »
Okay. We have some serious misconceptions here of what the Church is.

In the Old Testament, the Hebrews were called the People of God, which is more acurately translated as the Family of God. My means of "covenant" (covenants being how outsiders were brought into families by the Hebrews) the Hebrews were brought into God's famly, thus making him their "Father".

In the Bible there are six covenants: Adamic, Noahic, Abrahamic, Mosaic, Davidic, and the New Covenant in Christ. And we see that each covenant casts its net wider: Two people, a family, a tribe, the 12 tribes, a Kingdom, and finally the whole world. This is God's plan of salvation, and this is why it is so critical to understand that to be a Christian is not about "are you saved" or "a personal relationship", but rather it is about being part of the Family of God and an adopted son/daughter of the Father.

This is the Church, under ther new and final covenant. We are the Family of God. Thats why we call each other brother and sister, and why we call God "Father". Thats why the Church has feasts and special days, as any family would

Being a Christian is not just some personal relationship with Jesus, a phrase coined by evangelicals only in recent history. Its about being part of a Family. Its about showing up to the family meal (Sunday Mass communion), and celibrating on the familiy's special days. I have heard people say, "The church is inside of me." Frankly, that's hogwash, and a non-sequitur. The Church is far far more than that.

No sir. You are describing what it is to be a member of the Catholic Church..........

No I am not. I am describing what it means to enter into a "covenant" with God. It is Jesus who established the new and everlasting covenant. It is Jesus who taught us to pray "our father". These are not Catholic inventions, these are Biblical, theological and historical facts.

In fact, I challenge you to print that post out in its entirety, take it to your pastor, and have him find fault with anything I said.

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2012, 10:43:56 AM »
"Christian unity is required now more than ever if humanity is to survive the evil onslaught now faced by good and decent Christians. Intellectual debates over the falsehood of someone else's Christian faith serve the cause of dividing Christians - doing the devil's work."

Needed to be emphasized.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"