Author Topic: Why I am Catholic  (Read 20942 times)

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CatholicCrusader

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2012, 10:48:07 AM »
If you have a Brother, cousin, sister etc who never show up for family meals, are they considered no longer part of your family?.........

That depends. Have they disavowed the family, cut ties and changed their name? Or did they just have a flat tire on the way home?

Actually, I addressed this in reply #15.

ChrstnHsbndFthr said, "....There is no division in the church that Christ built.....".

I replied, "Not true. There is division. You see, just because I believe the Pope and Bishops of the Catholic Church are the true successors of the Peter and the Apostles does not mean that I don't think my protestant brethren are part of the Church as well: I do. They are my brethren, but they are my seperated brethren. I would liken the situation to a brother who runs away from home and disavows our parents. Technically he is still my brother, but yet he has chosen to forsake all the family traditions and special days we get together and everything else. Protestants are Christians and accepted as brothers, something that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is actually quite clear about (something that you may not have known). Yet, they are seperated from us."

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2012, 10:50:25 AM »

I reiterate that any point of view is welcome regarding ones own faith. I am suggesting we find ways to do it without telling other Christians that their faith is false.

I think doing so is endemic to this type of  conversation. If I believe that following all of the precepts of the Catholic church is required to be "saved",  a "Christian", "Part of the Church of Christ"  or <insert your favorite label here>  , and state as much openly , then by inference I am stating that everyone who believes differently is not covered under that label.  

Just understand that we are talking about different things, and treat them as such.  "Christian1" as proposed by IDP is different fom "Christian2"  proposed by CC and so forth.  If we agree to not argue over the labels - or confuse them with our own, then we should be fine.  Just let folks argue for why their definition for their label  such and such is correct, and understand it has nothing at all to do with your such and such, even though the same term is being used to describe it. I doubt anyone will convince anyone, because the different sects (and the reformation itself)  happened for a reason, but understanding each other better I think will always be productive.

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2012, 11:20:01 AM »
Technically he is still my brother, but yet he has chosen to forsake all the family traditions and special days we get together and everything else. Protestants are Christians and accepted as brothers, something that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is actually quite clear about (something that you may not have known). Yet, they are seperated from us

So basically a prodigal son situation, correct?  You may be lost, but still a brother in Christ? And since each of us sins, and turns from God for seconds or for years, does that not describe all of us- even those who attend the brick and mortar Catholic  church, and take regular communion and enjoy the fellowship of like-minded believers?  If so, what then, is the separation?  That they don't celebrate All-Saints Day? That they don't confess to a Priest?  They don't fast at Lent? They are practicing different forms in their worship, to be sure, but I am wondering what the material difference(s) is (are) that deny them membership in the church (body of Christ)?

If I am stranded on a  island, and I serve myself communion, do I form a church of One? - or am I lost to the church and the body of Christ till I am rescued and return to a brick and mortar building?   If I celebrate certain days, and not others, am I not a brother or part of the body of Christ on those days I fail to participate?  What if I participate, but my "heart is not in it" and I would rather be home watching reruns of Jersey Shore? Even within the Catholic Church there are members who are lost, are there not? Where is the line that is crossed between being a sinner and part of the Church, and being "Christian, but separate?"

Communion and Baptism seem to be the only rituals Christ commanded, and while both imply fellowship, its not clear to me that fellowship is required. God is always there to witness your actions and your heart.

Offline Libertas

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2012, 11:43:57 AM »
Technically he is still my brother, but yet he has chosen to forsake all the family traditions and special days we get together and everything else. Protestants are Christians and accepted as brothers, something that the Catechism of the Catholic Church is actually quite clear about (something that you may not have known). Yet, they are seperated from us

So basically a prodigal son situation, correct?  You may be lost, but still a brother in Christ? And since each of us sins, and turns from God for seconds or for years, does that not describe all of us- even those who attend the brick and mortar Catholic church, and take regular communion and enjoy the fellowship of like-minded believers?  If so, what then, is the separation?  That they don't celebrate All-Saints Day? That they don't confess to a Priest?  They don't fast at Lent? They are practicing different forms in their worship, to be sure, but I am wondering what the material difference(s) is (are) that deny them membership in the church (body of Christ)?

If I am stranded on a  island, and I serve myself communion, do I form a church of One? - or am I lost to the church and the body of Christ till I am rescued and return to a brick and mortar building?   If I celebrate certain days, and not others, am I not a brother or part of the body of Christ on those days I fail to participate?  What if I participate, but my "heart is not in it" and I would rather be home watching reruns of Jersey Shore? Even within the Catholic Church there are members who are lost, are there not? Where is the line that is crossed between being a sinner and part of the Church, and being "Christian, but separate?"

Communion and Baptism seem to be the only rituals Christ commanded, and while both imply fellowship, its not clear to me that fellowship is required. God is always there to witness your actions and your heart.


You make good points, nice to have shared fellowship, but it is not required.  I am not aware of any instance where Jesus ever said it is mandatory for salvation, only that people go to Him. The "Cafeteria Catholics" I know who are in the mold of Ted Kennedy and Nancy Pelosi are by visible act "good" Catholics, but they really aren't.  We can argue over whose fault that is, but the point being "showing up" doesn't in itself count for much.  Paul warned people of accepting apostate members and going to apostate churches...when Catholics like Pelosi stick to the rituals and attendance but fail to adhere to church doctrine, is that the fault of the person or the fault of the church, or both?  I'd argue both, but the church side of the equation is not brave enough to enforce their own doctrine, no doubt for the fear of bad press and lower collection plate receipts.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

CatholicCrusader

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2012, 02:58:08 PM »
So basically a prodigal son situation, correct?  You may be lost, but still a brother in Christ?........
Well, not quite, but sort of I guess.

......If I am stranded on a  island, and I serve myself communion, do I form a church of One? - or am I lost to the church and the body of Christ till I am rescued and return to a brick and mortar building?......
Not neccessarily. If I, as a Catholic, am stranded on an island thats not really my fault, and if I still believe what I believe then I am still part of the church. Thats not the same as someone making a conscious choice to reject the church.

.......Communion and Baptism seem to be the only rituals Christ commanded......
Actually they are what we call "Sacraments", not rituals, although there are rituals attached to the Sacraments. The Seven Sacraments (with links) are:
 
Baptism
Confirmation (or Chrismation)
Eucharist
Reconciliation (or Penance)
Anointing of the Sick
Holy Orders
Matrimony

.......Communion and Baptism seem to be the only rituals Christ commanded, and while both imply fellowship, its not clear to me that fellowship is required........
"And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching" (Hebrews 10:24-25).







Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2012, 04:36:19 PM »
Okay, it is time to consider another mark of the church, an identifier that allows us to know if the church we have joined ourselves to, is really the church Christ built, or a man-made organization. 
Who adds souls to the church according to scripture?  Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Not men. Not a vote of other Christians. Not a priest. Not a preacher. Not a council. The Lord.
“My mission today is to go forth and tell people about why I follow Christ and also what the Bible teaches, and part of that teaching is that women and men are meant to be together.

“However, I would never treat anyone with disrespect just because they are different from me. We are all created by the Almighty and like Him, I love all of humanity. We would all be better off if we loved God and loved each other.”
Phil Robertson an elder in the church of Christ

CatholicCrusader

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2012, 05:05:40 PM »
Okay, it is time to consider another mark of the church, an identifier that allows us to know if the church we have joined ourselves to, is really the church Christ built, or a man-made organization. 
Who adds souls to the church according to scripture?  Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Not men. Not a vote of other Christians. Not a priest. Not a preacher. Not a council. The Lord.

Yes, but the Lord works through people quite often to achieve that goal.

In fact, God has almost always worked through men: The prophets, Moses, David, the writers of the scriptures....   ...he even became a man himself.

Online IronDioPriest

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2012, 07:44:03 PM »
Okay, it is time to consider another mark of the church, an identifier that allows us to know if the church we have joined ourselves to, is really the church Christ built, or a man-made organization.  
Who adds souls to the church according to scripture?  Acts 2:47
Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Not men. Not a vote of other Christians. Not a priest. Not a preacher. Not a council. The Lord.

Yes, but the Lord works through people quite often to achieve that goal.

In fact, God has almost always worked through men: The prophets, Moses, David, the writers of the scriptures....   ...he even became a man himself.


It strikes me to say that the people that God works through are not even close to exclusively Catholic. He can use whoever He chooses to accomplish His will, and the same goes for churches. He works how He will, where He will, when He will, and through whomever He will. God has no preference for Catholicism or Catholics in how He chooses to influence people in choosing to seek Jesus Christ.

Unless you're going to posit that people like Billy Graham, the late Charles Colson or NFL player Tim Tebow are leading people astray - away from Christ - because they are not Catholic.

This whole thing is just ludicrous to me. The idea that all Christian truth resides in Catholicism - with all its gothic and pagan traditions intermingled with Christianity - and that other sects that rest on the truth of John 3:16 just don't quite measure up to the "truth" meter... just ludicrous. Ridiculous. False.

Equally false to me is the notion that the Catholic Church resides outside of truth and completely outside of God's will.

Institutions are man-made. Period. Men built Catholicism as a way to spread the Gospel, accumulate wealth, and control populations. Pagan men infused pagan traditions with it. Protestantism sprang from it. Men built non-denomimational Christian sects.

Jesus Christ built His church when He died and rose again, and invited the entire human race to accept His Lordship and sacrifice. Catholicism may well be a part of that invitation. But they aren't the only ones invited.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2012, 07:51:34 PM by IronDioPriest »
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2012, 09:48:02 PM »
IDP, the fact is, according to scripture, the membership of the church that Christ built, is decided by Christ. Not me. Not Catholic Crusader. Not the Pope. Not some council in Tennessee, nor one in Utah, or England. That knowledge and judgment belongs to Christ.
My advocacy is that we TRY to follow the scripture as best we can. We should return to the religion that Jesus taught. It is my belief that we can trust Christ to keep his word if we obey him. I know more today than I did yesterday. It is almost assured that I know less today than I will tomorrow. Does that mean I am not a Christian today? Does it mean that someone who only understands what I did yesterday is not a Christian today?  These standards do not belong to us, imo.  They belong to Christ. He told us some things on this subject:
Phillipians 1
15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:

16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:

17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel.

18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.
Mark 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.


And the words of Jesus make clear our obligation:
John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.
“My mission today is to go forth and tell people about why I follow Christ and also what the Bible teaches, and part of that teaching is that women and men are meant to be together.

“However, I would never treat anyone with disrespect just because they are different from me. We are all created by the Almighty and like Him, I love all of humanity. We would all be better off if we loved God and loved each other.”
Phil Robertson an elder in the church of Christ

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2012, 09:38:11 AM »

Offline Libertas

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #50 on: September 13, 2012, 11:50:14 AM »
Heh.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

CatholicCrusader

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2012, 12:18:09 PM »

Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2012, 10:01:11 PM »
According to scripture, the word comes to us no longer through the prophets or the angels or through men. The word comes through the Son.
Hebrews 1:1-3
King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

It also points our where the leadership of the church is......on the throne of Heaven, certainly not in any earthly city.
“My mission today is to go forth and tell people about why I follow Christ and also what the Bible teaches, and part of that teaching is that women and men are meant to be together.

“However, I would never treat anyone with disrespect just because they are different from me. We are all created by the Almighty and like Him, I love all of humanity. We would all be better off if we loved God and loved each other.”
Phil Robertson an elder in the church of Christ

CatholicCrusader

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2012, 05:00:11 PM »
According to scripture, the word comes to us no longer through the prophets or the angels or through men. The word comes through the Son..........

Yes, I understand that. Jesus was the final "word" that God had to say to the world.

What I am talking about is who has the authority to teach what Jesus taught.

Look: Some Christians say you are supposed to baptise babies, some say you can't. Some say you must observe the Sabbath on Sauturday, most others don't. Some say you must speak in toungues to prove you have the Holy Spirit, others do not. Yet they all claim the Bible as the source of their doctrine. Who has the final authority on earth to decide what is correct doctrine? Protestant Christianity is awash in a sea of contradictory and conflicting doctrines. And why is that? Becuase they are doing the same thing that was condemned long ago, "every man did that which was right in his own eyes” (Judges 21:25).

The Bible is plain and clear on this point: Jesus chose men to teach: He gave them the authority to bind and loose. How did they first excersize this authority? In Acts 15, it was a Council that decided on the matter of Circumcision. They made this decision based on their authority. They did not consult any scriptures in their decision, but were rather guided by the Holy Spirit: "It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements" (Acts 15:28).

This is how doctrine is decided: Not by popular vote, not by each individual reading a Bible and deciding for themselves what is right or wrong, but by a Council of those appointed by Christ. It was a Council that decided many things you hold to be true. It was a Council that decided which of the 27 books belong in the New Testament. Jesus never said to make a New Testament; he never said to write anything at all. Yet in the 4th century, during the Pontificate of Pope Damasus I, he ratified the canon of the New Testament. It was Council that decided that Jesus is fully God and fully man against the arch-heretic Arius.

The Bible is the written word of God. But like any book it must be interpreted. Now, YOU show ME in the Bible where it says that every individual is to decide what is right for themselves.

Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2012, 05:30:20 PM »
The scriptures teach that Jesus is the High Priest and everyone else are priests directly before Him, who rules to this day. It is our responsibility to read the word and study it ourselves. If we allow men to stand between us and God, more the fools are we.

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;.
Hebrews 4:14
Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Hebrews 6:20
Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 7:23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely[c] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
Hebrews 4:2016 Let us then approach God’s throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need.
(WE approach the throne, not some priest who stands between us and our High Priest and King, but WE approach, and why not? We have the right, granted by God as his special possession!)
1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.
“My mission today is to go forth and tell people about why I follow Christ and also what the Bible teaches, and part of that teaching is that women and men are meant to be together.

“However, I would never treat anyone with disrespect just because they are different from me. We are all created by the Almighty and like Him, I love all of humanity. We would all be better off if we loved God and loved each other.”
Phil Robertson an elder in the church of Christ

charlesoakwood

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2012, 05:32:44 PM »

"Christian unity is required now more than ever if humanity is to survive the evil onslaught now faced by good and decent Christians. Intellectual debates over the falsehood of someone else's Christian faith serve the cause of dividing Christians - doing the devil's work."

Needed to be emphasized.


!


Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2012, 06:39:21 PM »
Look: Some Christians say you are supposed to baptise babies, some say you can't. Some say you must observe the Sabbath on Sauturday, most others don't. Some say you must speak in toungues to prove you have the Holy Spirit, others do not. Yet they all claim the Bible as the source of their doctrine. Who has the final authority on earth to decide what is correct doctrine? Protestant Christianity is awash in a sea of contradictory and conflicting doctrines. And why is that? Becuase they are doing the same thing that was condemned long ago, "every man did that which was right in his own eyes” (Judges 21:25).
.....
 It was a Council that decided which of the 27 books belong in the New Testament. Jesus never said to make a New Testament; he never said to write anything at all. Yet in the 4th century, during the Pontificate of Pope Damasus I, he ratified the canon of the New Testament. It was Council that decided that Jesus is fully God and fully man against the arch-heretic Arius.

And those councils were anointed directly by  Jesus? No, it was a council of men deciding FOR OTHERS what will be right, each member exercising their own judgement - what was right in their own eyes - which may, or may not, have been influenced by the Spirit.  A similar council voted to change "Virgin" to "Young Woman" to update the bible.  Was that council lead by the holy spirit? How about the Council that approved "Virgin" in the the first place? Them too? Holy Spirit changes his mind with the times too?  

It takes a huge leap of faith to assert that all church councils were always made up of virtuous men filled with and guided by the Holy Spirit.  Especially when some of those councils thought it was okay to issue pardons for sins (sometimes in advance!)  in God's name in return for donations to their coffers.  I will grant having a central authority and a group of well intentioned men is more likely to produce a better and more uniform outcome, and that may be as Christ intended, but given some of the very wrong things those councils did ( Spanish or Medieval  Inquisitions anyone?) I find it hard to fathom that they can be relied upon to always arrive at the right decisions - Men are Men and Men are Fallible - even the ones who claim to be holy - and especially men who have risen into the ranks of authority.   Do you really believe that the Catholic Clergy are somehow special and not prone to human failings?  Why then have they allowed so many of their ranks to be infested with Gay men and preacher of Social Justice?  Why do they have issues with Priests molesting young boys?  I don't think that is the Church's fault mind, I  am merely pointing out that the church suffers from corruption and the vile nature of man just as much as any other human maintained institution, and that vesting Church Councils (of any church!) with some form of   guidance not available to all men is fallacious, as all of human history will demonstrate.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2012, 06:52:36 PM by Weisshaupt »

Online IronDioPriest

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2012, 06:43:21 PM »
....It takes a huge leap of faith to assert that all church councils were always made up of virtuous men filled with and guided by the Holy Spirit....

A huge leap of faith in men. Only a fool puts his faith in the integrity of men. Or institutions.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2012, 07:34:21 PM »
To be clear, I do NOT assert that men have authority over other men, except on the congregational level, and then only as regards orderly worship. There is not such thing as church doctrine, only the doctrine of Christ and each man is free to study, and not only that, REQUIRED to study. How else can a man serve God and keep his commandments, lest he study his Word?  I do not serve some appointed Apostle, Pope, Council, or whatever the denomination might call it. I serve God, through his Son, Jesus, by his Word. If I am not to allow even my own mother or father to come between me and God's Word, how can I allow a mere man to intervene?  Certainly, to the degree a man may show me SCRIPTURE, he may influence my thinking THROUGH that scripture, but otherwise, I serve NO MAN, but only God!
“My mission today is to go forth and tell people about why I follow Christ and also what the Bible teaches, and part of that teaching is that women and men are meant to be together.

“However, I would never treat anyone with disrespect just because they are different from me. We are all created by the Almighty and like Him, I love all of humanity. We would all be better off if we loved God and loved each other.”
Phil Robertson an elder in the church of Christ

CatholicCrusader

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Re: Why I am Catholic
« Reply #59 on: September 14, 2012, 08:34:49 PM »
The scriptures teach that Jesus is the High Priest and everyone else are priests directly before Him, who rules to this day. It is our responsibility to read the word and study it ourselves. If we allow men to stand between us and God, more the fools are we.........

So you are saying Jesus was a fool for giving the apostles the authority to teach and to bind & loose?

I never said not to study the Bible. You aren't even listening to what I am saying. I never said not to study the Bible., in fact I study the Bible too. What I said is, who has the AUTHORITY to decide what is correct doctrine and what is not.