Topic: Legalized Marijuana Is On My Colorado Ballot

[trapeze]

In addition to the big question of whether or not the economy is going stay in the toilet with BO or have a chance at recovery with Romney, we in Colorado also get to contend with the hugely important issue of legalizing (or not) marijuana. Not "medical" marijuana...no, we already passed that legislation. No, this time it's on the ballot for complete legalization.

Here is a moderately lengthy article from (ugh) The Daily Beast about the situation.

Colorado is the developed world’s only regulated for-profit cannabis market, and sales—to the 100,000 residents who have a thumbs up from their M.D.s—are closing in on $200 million this year, a sum that generates tens of millions of dollars in local, state, and federal taxes. (Yes, the IRS taxes marijuana operations, even as the Justice Department attempts to shut them down.) Colorado is not the world’s only experiment in free-market pot, but it’s the most sophisticated, pushing beyond the Netherlands’ confusing ban on wholesale and California’s hazy nonprofit status. Denver’s former city attorney has called it California “on steroids.”

This is what an infusion of California refugees will do to your state.

Oh, and it doesn't help that Tom Tancredo is supporting this ballot initiative.

Former Congressman Tom Tancredo sent a letter this week to certain Republican state lawmakers outlining his support for a ballot measure that would legalize the sale of marijuana.

“I have decided that it presents a responsible, effective and much-needed solution to a misguided policy,” he said.

“Eighty years ago, Colorado voters concerned about the health and safety of their families and communities approved a ballot initiative to repeal alcohol prohibition prior to it being done by the federal government. This November, we have the opportunity to end the equally problematic and ineffective policy of marijuana prohibition.”

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand I sort of agree with Tancredo that prohibition has not worked and that the "war on drugs" is a big stinking failure that does put a lot of people behind bars for felonies who probably should not be there. I also hate what I see on our southern border with militant Mexican thugs killing dozens of people every week or so.

But...I also know from having seen dozens of my childhood friends wind up dead or physically, spiritually and emotionally ruined that yes, pot is a "gateway" drug that leads (more often than its cheerleaders will admit) to the use and abuse of other drugs. I know of no one from my youth who ended up on the very bad stuff who did not start with pot. One thing frequently does lead to another.

So, I have for the last twenty five years or so been pretty much as anti-drug as they come. I don't like what drugs do to people. It isn't pretty at all. I cannot imagine that legalized pot will make our state a better place in the end.

I won't be voting for the ballot initiative to legalize marijuana but I will not be surprised if it passes in this liberal and Ron Paul flavored libertarian environment.

[AmericanPatriot]

Trap, with all due respect, I have to disagree with you a little.
Marijuana is only a gateway drug in one respect. Users find out it won't turn you into a monster and question all the other info on other really dangerous drugs.

As someone who was a heavy user for around 17 years (long time ago), I tried quite a few other heavy drugs, usually once or twice, and didn't degenerate into a hopeless addict.

(I haven't used in 20 years)

All that really happened with my use and lots of others I know is that I got really lazy and hungry.

The real danger to the war on drugs has been the cost of billions and the taking away of lots of our liberty.
Marijuana use is truly a victimless crime.

The lives that were ruined were the result of the state's war on drugs. Jails are filled with these people and their lives were ruined because they took a little toke.

Other more harmful and legal drugs are alcohol and cigarettes. Both kill more people and ruin way more lives than a little pot did.

And no one was ever held up at gunpoint or gad their houses burglarized for a nickel bag.

Smuggling of the stuff has created real bad guys and helped finance real bad stuff.

Call off the war on pot, legalize it and tax it if you must.

[Libertas]

My thinking on the drug issue is pretty much in line with yours Trap.  Is everyone who has ever smoked pot an abuser of hard drugs?  Of course not.  But how many jump right into the hard stuff right off the mark?  I have mixed feelings about the whole issue.  Getting the violence and border chaos that accompanies it could be vastly reduced if pot was legalized, but I would not be in favor of that unless its misuse was as strictly (if not more) enforced as alcohol related offenses.

But hey, if this passes, maybe I should move there and open up a head shop that also offers a wide variety of junk food...it would be like legalized stealing!  

[trapeze]

Trap, with all due respect, I have to disagree with you a little.
Marijuana is only a gateway drug in one respect. Users find out it won't turn you into a monster and question all the other info on other really dangerous drugs.

As someone who was a heavy user for around 17 years (long time ago), I tried quite a few other heavy drugs, usually once or twice, and didn't degenerate into a hopeless addict.

You aren't disagreeing with anything that I wrote in my post. Read it again. I said:

I know of no one from my youth who ended up on the very bad stuff who did not start with pot. One thing frequently does lead to another.

I never said that as a "gateway" drug marijuana always led to harder drug abuse but rather that all hard drug abusers that I knew started with it. I'm certain that people can be found who started their drug abuse with substances other than marijuana...that was not my statement or my point.

And your point that "Users find out it won't turn you into a monster and question all the other info on other really dangerous drugs," is one that I left unsaid but completely agree with.

Some other points...

I do, of course, completely believe in and support state's rights. I believe, for instance, that Roe v. Wade should be overturned and returned to the state's jurisdictions. Therefore (my mixed feelings coming out again) I don't have a particular problem with states deciding to experiment with legalized marijuana. I think it's a mistake but I don't have a problem with it in theory based on state's rights.

But I also believe that legalization in one state, Colorado in this case, or two or three is not a good thing for the nation, either. Right now there are vacation excursions to places outside the USA where pot use is legal. I can see that phenom happening to our state...people buying up as much as they want and then taking it back home. Is that a good thing?

Has the normalization of gambling (in some states) been a good thing, over all, for our nation? I especially include state lotteries in that question because in my opinion they are a disproportionate burden to the poor. Yes, like the proposed pot legislation, state lotteries are a tax boon to things like education, etc. but the cost for these things are largely borne by the poor and ignorant. Is that good? And will legalized marijuana use be a similar burden to the poor, uneducated or just plain stupid? And if it is, is that tolerable?

Things to think about.

Other things you said:

Marijuana use is truly a victimless crime.

Not currently it isn't. There are thousands of dead in Mexico that argue to the contrary. Legalizing it would lower these deaths but perhaps not completely eliminate them.

The lives that were ruined were the result of the state's war on drugs. Jails are filled with these people and their lives were ruined because they took a little toke.

The vast majority of people incarcerated for marijuana related crimes are in jail for distribution rather than use. And, if you believe in the law, they should be in jail. I personally hate drug dealers. Those on the user end like to console themselves that they have no blood on their hands but the reality is that they do and choose to ignore their complicity in the big picture of drug trafficking.  

Other more harmful and legal drugs are alcohol and cigarettes. Both kill more people and ruin way more lives than a little pot did.

That is a bit of a straw man argument. Auto accidents kill more people than marijuana usage. Lots of things do. That isn't the point.

As far as harmful, I have read in numerous places that marijuana smoke has tremendous amounts of lung clogging tar in it. Is that good?

And again, no, pot use at the user level is not directly tied to ruining very many lives but it definitely is at the distribution level.

And no one was ever held up at gunpoint or gad their houses burglarized for a nickel bag.

Smuggling of the stuff has created real bad guys and helped finance real bad stuff.

Call off the war on pot, legalize it and tax it if you must.

And that's the real issue, isn't it? Will more lives (in the aggregate) be ruined if it is legalized? No one knows. I do know that marijuana is not the innocent drug that its proponents say that it is, legal or not.

[LadyVirginia]

 

I'm not sure that encouraging pot use (and that is what will happen) so that we have more hazy-thinking people is the way to go.

[Alphabet Soup]

Marijuana is only a gateway drug in one respect. Users find out it won't turn you into a monster and question all the other info on other really dangerous drugs.

I remember attending a PTA meeting circa 1968 where the agenda was "How do we rid our kids from this scourge called Marihuana?"

My buddies and I were highly amused (no doubt influenced by being high to start with) by all the "Reefer Madness" imagery being tossed about by the school, the PTA, and the cops they had there as guest speakers. I remember standing up and using exactly that same line. Naturally I was given all the due deference one typically affords your average 15 yo and we were escorted out of the hall.

As yet another example of the cognitive dissonance that is the leftist experience the pot issue is on our ballot as well, at the same time as several school districts are struggling with an explosion in student OD's.

I'm glad I no longer have to be a parent.

[ChrstnHsbndFthr]

I absolutely HATE drug use.....but I am for TOTAL legalization.

The war on drugs has been a disaster, costly both in rights and credibility.

If you want to shoot Draino into your vein, what right do I have to put you in jail for that?  Frankly, as harsh as it sounds, our society could become self-cleaning.  Use enough or the wrong things and you die. 

Also, it is completely ridiculous that I have paid doctors for years to tell me that, Yes, I still have my chronic conditions so they will go ahead and write me my prescriptions. I knew before I walked in to his office that I was not miraculously cured. I need the same drugs that I needed last year and the year before, but I waste his time and mine because of STUPID drug laws.  (No one is likely to steal my doxycycline but I still have to have a new prescription for it every six months.

We create crime.  (I do not just mean drug laws that people violate anyway!) We force the price so high that true addicts, who were not prevented from becoming addicts, have to steal to feed the drug habit.  That endangers people like me, who would not do drugs if they were legal.

The resulting price decrease means any addict could work a day and buy enough drugs to kill himself.

Even people who WANT help are afraid to get it. They fear they are confessing something criminal. (Not that I think there is any help for someone who does not want to quit.) 

We screw with quality and endanger lives with these laws . If this was brought above ground quality control would be like anything else, as would potency, meaning fewer accidental over doses and almost no poisonings.

We already tried this experiment with alcohol. We know where it ends.  The ONLY control we get is by legalization. We will still preach and teach against it.   But we must legalize everything to have a chance of winning this thing.

[IronDioPriest]

Trap, with all due respect, I have to disagree with you a little.
Marijuana is only a gateway drug in one respect. Users find out it won't turn you into a monster and question all the other info on other really dangerous drugs....

I think that pretty much defines "gateway drug". That said, I think I've come around to some kind of pot legalization as well. Its illegality is clearly, clearly not working - for anyone. Period.

I've written on our forums in the past that I used to work for a drug and alcohol rehab facility. Long-term facility - as in 12-18 months residential. The worst of the worst rock-bottom cases. Last chance before death cases.

My job was to interview them as they were well along the pathway to recovery, harvest the audio of their testimony, and edit that audio into radio PSAs. So I was privy to the details of every story of every graduate of the program for three years.

I can say unequivocally that pot is as nearly a universal gateway drug as one could imagine. Almost nobody just picks up a needle full of heroin, a pipe full of crack, or a hit of acid, and does that as their first excursion into the drug culture. Almost to a person, pot came first.

The social and legal barrier is smashed down by first doing something that causes few short-term consequences. After that barrier is smashed, people have less aversion to other drugs.

Do all or even almost all people who smoke pot move into other drugs? I don't think that's the case at all. But I can say that among those who have become addicted to hard drugs, prior pot use is so prevalent as to be all but a prerequisite.

But the war against pot is lost. People's lives are being ruined more by the war than by the weed. In far too many cases, the illegality of it is causing heinous death and destruction as the black market for it works its evil.

So I'd vote "Yes" if it was on my ballot.

ETA: The exception to my "prerequisite" comment: Alcohol. Plenty of people start drinking and never stop, and plenty of them never smoked weed first.

[Predator Don]

My opposition to legalized drugs is this.....I don't want one more product the gov't will over regulate. If pot becomes legal, your gov't will have one more avenue of attack.

[trapeze]

I absolutely HATE drug use.....but I am for TOTAL legalization.

The war on drugs has been a disaster, costly both in rights and credibility.

If you want to shoot Draino into your vein, what right do I have to put you in jail for that?  Frankly, as harsh as it sounds, our society could become self-cleaning.  Use enough or the wrong things and you die.  

I would actually be fine with this except for the stamp of legitimacy that legalization gives this behavior. I mean, it's evolution in action but I don't like giving tacit approval to people to f**k themselves up. I think that's wrong. It's yet another way of defining deviancy down.

We create crime.  (I do not just mean drug laws that people violate anyway!) We force the price so high that true addicts, who were not prevented from becoming addicts, have to steal to feed the drug habit.  That endangers people like me, who would not do drugs if they were legal.

The resulting price decrease means any addict could work a day and buy enough drugs to kill himself.

Even people who WANT help are afraid to get it. They fear they are confessing something criminal. (Not that I think there is any help for someone who does not want to quit.)  

We screw with quality and endanger lives with these laws . If this was brought above ground quality control would be like anything else, as would potency, meaning fewer accidental over doses and almost no poisonings.

We already tried this experiment with alcohol. We know where it ends.  The ONLY control we get is by legalization. We will still preach and teach against it.   But we must legalize everything to have a chance of winning this thing.

The only problem with your scenario is the government. You see, you cannot easily and safely make distilled alcohol at home. Operating a still is dangerous. Therefore there is little chance that the illegal manufacturing of alcohol will ever become widespread. Hence, there are few instances of people crossing the federal government and getting convicted and incarcerated.

But...anyone can grow marijuana. It's fabulously easy and not dangerous at all. Not, that is, in and of itself. But if the federal or state government gets involved then there will be lots and lots of arrests and convictions for anyone horning in on the state's new source of revenue. And what about potency? What if the state mandates a certain level of potency and you are caught with some that exceeds that limit? What then?

I do not believe that there will be any decrease at all in marijuana related "crimes" should it become "legal" because the game will remain the same while only the players will change.

Nor do I think that the price will come down very much. Once the state and (eventually) the federal government gets involved you can see a proportional tax similar to alcohol and cigarettes...which is huge. I remember when beer prices were a couple of bucks for a six pack. Then the government started to tax the heck out of it and you can't buy a single beer for two bucks now. Sure, inflation is part of that but not that much.

And if you don't think the anti-smoking people won't go nuts over smoking marijuana I think you are wrong. They will lobby for sky high taxes "for the children." We have seen this before and it will happen again.

Any way you look at this issue it is opening another huge can of worms by way of unintended consequences.

In a couple of weeks it will be decided one way or another but I am not sure that this is going to end up the way that some people think it will if it passes.

[Weisshaupt]

Never interfere with the enemy when they are commiting suicide..make em drug addled and unable to vote..the more we have lik like that at the collapse the better

[charlesoakwood]

If you buy legal pot one should be required to register,
by registering one forfeits the right to vote.  Stoners are
not allowed to vote.

[Libertas]

If you buy legal pot one should be required to register,
by registering one forfeits the right to vote.  Stoners are
not allowed to vote.

Guess all them illegal stoners came out in droves in '08...

[LadyVirginia]

I would actually be fine with this except for the stamp of legitimacy that legalization gives this behavior. I mean, it's evolution in action but I don't like giving tacit approval to people to f**k themselves up. I think that's wrong. It's yet another way of defining deviancy down.

there is no longer family or the neighborhood to determine acceptable behavior

as in everything else the government does that now

53 million abortions since legalization and now we're to the point of having to pay for them...