Author Topic: Tales of New America  (Read 6037 times)

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Offline Libertas

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Re: Tales of New America
« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2013, 06:44:56 AM »
I wonder if living in the Peoples Paradise of NY hasn't contributed in some way.

I know in Minnie, especially the way things are going now, feeling to urge to bolt is growing.

Being surrounded by more and more libiots does take its toll, it's not just the high-profile ones we like to disparage, it's the day-to-day dealings with asshats of everyday life that can really suck the life out of us.  Fran mentions health but also mentions jackasses, the latter is probably not helping the former.

Stay well Fran, and good luck.  Your always welcome to stop in here anytime!   ::thumbsup::
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

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Offline Libertas

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Re: Tales of New America
« Reply #62 on: March 19, 2013, 06:38:08 PM »
Hopefully we see through to the completion.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

charlesoakwood

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Re: Tales of New America
« Reply #63 on: March 19, 2013, 07:28:03 PM »

Thanks for the reminder, somehow I missed your #21, now I shall have the pleasure of it.  I do notice there are no comments.

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Re: Tales of New America
« Reply #64 on: March 19, 2013, 07:29:15 PM »

Thanks for the reminder, somehow I missed your #21, now I shall have the pleasure of it.  I do notice there are no comments.

Fran closed the comments before he decamped.  'S okay, we here usually have plenty to say.   ;)
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charlesoakwood

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Re: Tales of New America
« Reply #65 on: March 19, 2013, 09:46:50 PM »

#21 moves the story along, not. There is no development between citizens being run out of town to Trash Land, the labor camp in #20, and the Big Ten football functioning society. He focused on the labor camp in #20 then #21 leaps to Big Ten football.  It's awkward, the quick and easy transition no transition from chaos to a functioning, dynamic industrial America.  And he needs to get over his midnight fantasy of a lily white America.  I'll take a big giant leap and speculate he's not spent much time in flyover country.


Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Tales of New America
« Reply #66 on: March 20, 2013, 12:11:07 AM »

#21 moves the story along, not. There is no development between citizens being run out of town to Trash Land, the labor camp in #20, and the Big Ten football functioning society. He focused on the labor camp in #20 then #21 leaps to Big Ten football.  It's awkward, the quick and easy transition no transition from chaos to a functioning, dynamic industrial America.  And he needs to get over his midnight fantasy of a lily white America.  I'll take a big giant leap and speculate he's not spent much time in flyover country.



I think what we are witnessing is just  First Draft. He writes the segments as the fancy takes him, and at some point they will get polished into a book. Or maybe two books. 

I live in Colorado. I grew up in Littleton.  I was 16 before I actually  spoke to a black person, one of 2 in my High School of 2000 students. (No his name wasn't Token, but it might as well have been, as he was one of the richest kids in school too -- and yes Matt Stone went to my High School. ) 

Flyover country ( or at least my little bit of it)  was lily white, and for the most part still is 30 years later. Utah, Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, South and North Dakota -are pretty much the same.  What black populations there are self-segregate - Yes, I know where I can find almost exclusively black people. I also know where I can find almost exclusively  white people, and I can tell you which neighborhood I would feel more comfortable in at night. Its not about skin color- its about culture, but the cultures are strongly correlated with race. (And that shouldn't be surprising, culture is passed on by your parents and neighbors. ) 

I think Butterworth's  longing for Lily White is more about wanting to be with  people "acting white" (for the lack of a better term) Americans tend to accept Asians, because for the most part, their ethics are more strict (puritan?) than those of the White culture.  In Colorado, Mexicans are seen to come in two stripes: the hardworking, and the lazy. Guess which ones are readily accepted as neighbors and which rejected by whites? And granted - not all white people "act white" and we can certainly find all white areas I don't want to be at night either.

 Butterworth's portrayal of the NAR is hardly what I would consider Ideal or white-washed ( I am such a racist using that term!) -In the NAR you could run a racist establishment and keep blacks out. You could discriminate against lesbians and gays.  Why? Because you have a right to your own opinion in the NAR. You have the right to censure those you disagree with ( Ben Franklin wrote a wonderful article on the value of censure and gossip) which really, is how the liberals disarmed us and prevented us from defending our culture.  They took away our right to censure those we did not like ( for good reasons or for bad) and replaced it with the govt making those decisions for us. I believe living in the NAR would be difficult for minorities. I am sure they would get by, and most would at least tolerate them,  but you are always going to have a few who will go overboard - drunk with the perceived power of the majority. The Founders argued about the issue of Blacks and slavery  in the first congress before the Declaration  was even signed.  It was widely believed then that Blacks and Whites just simply couldn't live together - it was almost axiomatic that freeing the slaves would require deporting them back to Africa or would require the founding of a Black territory/State where they could (would be foreced to?)  go.
 
And in the end, that is pretty much exactly what happened - through the choices they made and the culture they adopted, they became separate from us, and that resulted in disparities in wealth and ethics that produced a geographical separation


I think, Butterworth, like me, probably grew up in Lily White America and perhaps has a bit of nostalgia for it - because it was safe, people weren't entitled, and even the  Rich White Liberals were of the JFK variety, not the super commie Marxist hack variety so common now - which you might note, are no more welcome in the NAR than the openly gay

But Lily White America does exist- and pretty much always has :
1850-1990

African-American population by County, 1850-1990


1990:


2000:




2010:





charlesoakwood

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Re: Tales of New America
« Reply #67 on: March 20, 2013, 03:14:11 AM »
Quote
"Flyover country ( or at least my little bit of it)  was lily white, and for the most part still is 30 years later."

My bit of flyover country was segregated but interactive, blacks had their own entrpenure culture of shoe stores, tailor shops, filling stations, a virtual city within a city. but they could patronize most stores albeit they had their own restrooms, counter areas, and water fountains.  My first interaction was about age 3, we had a maid.  The first time I worked with a black was age 10 up in the country.


Quote
"I think Butterworth's  longing for Lily White is more about wanting to be with  people "acting white" (for the lack of a better term) Americans tend to accept Asians, because for the most part, their ethics are more strict (puritan?) than those of the White culture. "

It would be much more realistic if that were so but by his hand *Asians are out and so are **Jews,  I think he lumped it as they would rather be with their own kind.  (I went back and pulled some quotes)


Quote
"In Colorado, Mexicans are seen to come in two stripes: the hardworking, and the lazy."
 
That's the way it is here.  Before the first amnesty and rulings that hospitals could not turn away etc. etc. a common saying was they come here to work - they go to California for welfare, no more of that thank you Uncle Sam.


Quote
"Butterworth's portrayal of the NAR is hardly what I would consider Ideal or white-washed ( I am such a racist using that term!) -In the NAR you could run a racist establishment and keep blacks out. "

My reading is that all blacks are out, all lesbians are out; all persons not white are out.  White practicing Christian as he believes it (example: you must tithe and donate to the church) are the only persons allowed in NAR so far except at the black labor camp experiment (what ever that was).  The general has a bit of Jim Jones in him.  And Butterworth's caricature of all blacks as stupid and lazy along with the juvenile Fat Albert phonetics ia stilted to say the least.

His writing is interesting and thought provoking but it is not Christian, not practical and highly improbable.  He's writing himself into a corner assuming that California is going to sit and wallow.  There are many very smart, disciplined folks there.  When those hot Asians from Stanford, those professionals who contract to the military, and the oil companies gain political control  NAR will suffer political and economic backlash.

He has written off and out the South, which is also a mistake.

He teeters between a white utopia (sounds eerily familiar) and a very good story line.  I'm anxious to read his next installment.  He should re=enable the comments, they were interesting.

...
WOW!  I just scrolled down and saw your maps.  I'm shocked. I never knew.  My big giant guess, of course he hasn't a clue, few do.  Everybody thinks blacks are Atlanta, California Crips, and Detroit.  They do have the market cornered but, so far, those are caricatures.  


*
Quote
"Are you also aware of the number of your fellow citizens who've been robbed, molested, raped, murdered, crashed into by the illegal aliens, Mexican and Asian, that you've harbored through the years?"
Chinatown and various Asian enclaves of Vietnamese, Filipino, Japanese. Korean, Thai, and Laotian were scheduled for a week later. It was complicated with language problems. Many Asians never bothered to learn much English at all, although their children generally did. Although considered to be generally docile and highly conforming as people, Asians often proved stubborn, intransigent, and combative when pushed farther than they felt was acceptable
...
If too many Latinos and Asians refused to relocate, they would shut power, water, and food off in their areas, give it some time as people gave up and gave in, and then clear out the dead enders

 **
Quote
"What about racism? And intolerance? I hear stories that you don't welcome all Christians or people if they're black or Hispanic or even Jewish. What about that?"

Rather than launch into a long, tedious defense of the culture of New America, he readily admitted guilt before his accuser.

"That's right. I don't deny that we discriminate, and even our constitution respects freedom of association so strongly that anyone or any private business is free to discriminate against anyone however they please. As far as race and religion goes, if you decide to become a Buddhist or Hindu, you won't find any intolerance, per se, but if you want to adhere to a satanic anti-religion like Islam, yes, you'll have a problem. You'll be asked to leave. As for Jews, they are the ones who prefer not to join us for the most part."

"What about race?"

"Nobody objects to the Japanese not welcoming people outside their race or culture as citizens and immigrants."

"But this is America. It's different."

"That was America, and all those differences were a large part of what destroyed it. Identity politics ruined the idea of the melting pot for good. Even for Christians. I love all my brothers and sisters in Christ. In Christ Jesus there is no Jew or gentile, male or female, slave or free. But the sad truth is that black Christians and white ones go to different churches; same for Orientals and Hispanics. Why? We're all saved; washed in the blood of the Lamb, children of the Living God, and kindly disposed to each other when we meet and share our faith . . . but when we leave the church or retreat or fellowship meeting, we find ourselves bound to those closest to us in color, culture, and likeness. That's human nature, and we should overcome it, but as ministers, we know that most of us, most people don't. We have to accept reality if we want our people, our children to thrive. And they are thriving in New America. While there is absolutely nothing, I repeat, absolutely nothing to prevent other people, blacks, Hispanics or Orientals from creating their own thriving communities or States."
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 10:54:43 AM by Charles Oakwood »

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Tales of New America
« Reply #68 on: March 20, 2013, 10:23:58 AM »
It would be much more realistic if that were so but by his hand *Asians are out and so are **Jews,  I think he lumped it as they would rather be with their own kind.  (I went back and pulled some quotes)

After living in Lily White Colorado, I headed to University; Columbia U.  in Harlem. I was appalled how the Koreans only associated with the Koreans. The Japaneses with the Japanese. The Orthodox Jews only with other Orthodox Jews. The Blacks I met were actually the group most open to associating with others (maybe because we were on their home turf?)
These were the "brightest and best" - the Ivy League, and in New York, one of the most vibrant and diverse places in the world! --and racism and slurs and segregation were far more rampant in New York City than they were in my lily-white hometown. Asian girls would have an Asian boyfriend "just for show" - The cute Jewish girl in the room next door dated a Korean until her parents refused to pay for medical school  if she continued to see him. I was told outright by a gang of Indians (the Asian kind)  that I must cease and desist my attentions toward a pretty young lady named Ami,currently  under "their protection."

I think Butterworth's point is that "being with your own kind" is human nature, and being forced to live together causes the conflict. From what I saw in New York, I have a hard time disagreeing with him.  I don't want to believe it,  but left to their own devices, different races self-segregate.

My reading is that all blacks are out, all lesbians are out; all persons not white are out.  White practicing Christian as he believes it (example: you must tithe and donate to the church) are the only persons allowed in NAR so far except at the black labor camp experiment (what ever that was).  The general has a bit of Jim Jones in him.  And Butterworth's caricature of all blacks as stupid and lazy along with the juvenile Fat Albert phonetics is stilted to say the least.

I don't get that they are "out" - one of the first episodes is about letting two lesbians in. What I do think is that those not "White Christian", are not going to be allowed to disrupt the "White Christian" culture. Really, if you think about it, Utah is very much that way. In my trips there I have discovered that  if you aren't Mormon, they are civil and polite, but not overly friendly. They definitely leave the impression "you don't belong, but if you insist, we will tolerate it, as long as you don't try to change things"- If Colorado had done similar to our California immigrants, maybe we wouldn't be where we are now.  Likewise, in my Lily-white hometown, the minorities ( being VERY MUCH a minority)  "acted white" and participated in the dominant culture - you had to go to the ghetto to find the "lazy" blacks Butterworth portrayed the camps.  I think that is what Butterworth's immigration quote is about - these are people who broke the law, and in so doing, demonstrated an unwillingness to assimilate into,and accept the rules of, the dominant culture. Butterworth was perfectly willing to put White, Rich, Suburban liberals into a camp to teach them a lesson about diversity, so it not like being "white" protected them from the NAR in any way.  There is simply a difference between letting a tribe of invading  foreigners live in the same place as you (Europe and Islam!) , and welcoming foreigners into your own group because those foreigners WANT to be part of it ( American Immigration using the already established path to citizenship)

 Butterworth also specifically said the blacks bused to the camp were from the worse set, clooected in the last weeks, from the  Ghetto. They had been pre-filtered to have only the very worst present.   He said the black girl  who was attacked was relocated to live with a "better class" of blacks,  so he acknowledged  there was such a thing. He indicated the  lesbians would be okay if they just didn't make a spectacle of themselves, and so on. I just don't think Butterworth is portraying   a "racially pure" society, but a culturally pure one, based on what he sees as Christian teachings. If such a society were to form, I do not think we would be wrong to assume that it would be predominantly white- especially when it begins in States that are predominantly white to begin with. 

His writing is interesting and thought provoking but it is not Christian, not practical and highly improbable.

Its certainly Teotwawki porn, and I am not a "real" Christian by most people's standards, so I don't know if his writing is Christian or not.  However I am not sure what is so impractical or improbable about it.  Utah has basically been running itself like the NAR for the last 40 years. The First settlers were Puritans ( who ironically decided religious persecution of their own members was cool) and lived in that sort of society a long time. The Amish still do it. Never perfectly. Never justly. They are after all, people.  The takeover of Liberal territory is a bit too much of a cake walk, but the premise is that the Liberals cut defense spending and the NAR concentrated on it, - eventually giving them a vast edge over the Old United States. If Obama weren't deliberately intending to Attack Americans you can bet that the police would not be getting tanks, drone research would end, and the Military budget would be cut to less than a 1/5 of what it is now. That is the United States the NAR is fighting.  Well meaning pacifist morons, who let the NAR leave the US because they were to weak to force them back in , not Dedicated Marxists hell bent on "transformation"


 He's writing himself into a corner assuming that California is going to sit and wallow.  There are many very smart, disciplined folks there.  When those hot Asians from Stanford, those professionals who contract to the military, and the oil companies gain political control  NAR will suffer political and economic backlash.

But they won't - they have already reached the point of economic collapse as we speak. California is already hostile to Oil exploration - to the point where they won't let drilling occur where naturally occurring oil just washes up on the beaches. I went to an Ivy... . I know a whole bunch of people way smarter and more disciplined  than me, and they are, almost to a person, die-hard liberals. Intelligence does not beget common sense. They, like most liberals,  are happy to vote bullies into office to enforce their will, but they would never lift a finger personally to engage in violence.   With no money to pay police or soldiers, you can't wage a war. With no principles to call your own, they is nothing to "fight for" - that is why the left plays identity politics - "War on Women!", "Discrimination against Blacks!", "Class warfare!" - translation: your tribe is being attacked! Because "Pigs get to eat apples in the farmhouse while the rest of you work!"  just won't work as a rallying battle cry.

The South has such a large percentage of the "lazy" black, that I don't see anything but a massive race war there if  these circumstances came about. I am not writing it off, but there would be  a huge period of turmoil before anything resembling civilization emerged.

charlesoakwood

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Re: Tales of New America
« Reply #69 on: March 20, 2013, 12:01:41 PM »
 
I forgot that scene with the lesbians and was thinking of the selection process in Washington.  And yes we all prefer to be with our own kind I just think in a real SHTF our kind may be many colors (I know some Koreans, I don't like them but I trust them. They are tough little bastards. They would be an asset to the community). Butterworth puts a disproportionate value on race, it's as if he has some personal issues he hasn't worked out.   Then again the scenario wavers between an orderly war and SHTF. I guess that's the way it will be, unstable.

Quote

California is already hostile to Oil exploration - to the point where they won't let drilling occur where naturally occurring oil just washes up on the beaches. I went to an Ivy... . I know a whole bunch of people way smarter and more disciplined  than me, and they are, almost to a person, die-hard liberals. Intelligence does not beget common sense. They, like most liberals,  are happy to vote bullies into office to enforce their will, but they would never lift a finger personally to engage in violence.

A California overfilled with the dregs of Washington and Oregon will be over the tipping point. In the natural, I speculate those uber liberals shed their "sensitive" veneer, join with others grounded in reality and rule California with a vengeance. With CAs natural resources, intelligentsia and wounded ego, it could become a technocratic Russia.

And, one more time, those graphs are awesome.

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Tales of New America
« Reply #70 on: March 20, 2013, 12:41:53 PM »
 Butterworth puts a disproportionate value on race, it's as if he has some personal issues he hasn't worked out. 

Yeah, I can probably agree with that. Really, I think I have gotten good enough at "spot the selfish, narcissistic, liberal"  that I don't think I will be relying on race as a determining factor. Nor do I have the illusion that  living in an "all white" or "Christian" community is any sort of protection of liberty in and of itself.  The original colonial population was white and arguably more Christian, and still lived with slavery for 100's of years, persecuted those with different beliefs and generally acted like you would expect humans to act. What made America unique was it was the first place where humans ever tried to be better than that. Maybe someday we can try it again, but apparently it takes a special group of people to accomplish it.





Offline Alphabet Soup

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Re: Tales of New America
« Reply #71 on: March 20, 2013, 03:27:32 PM »
It may be that he is placing an inordinate amount of value to the racial component of the blowback that is certain to come in an economic meltdown. I'm not so sure. It is clear (to me at least) that the parasite class will be the least prepared or capable to cope with civil disorder. At one time I was schooled that there were more whites on welfare than blacks. That was so long ago - and deliberately neglectful of the fact that blacks comprised only about 12% of the population at the time - that I do not know how true it is. Or how much of the black population as a whole welfare recipients represent.

The way I prefer to read his stories is not as a subscriber or endorser of the narrative per se, but rather as an interested bystander watching to see where he takes it. I may be pleasantly surprised or bitterly disappointed. But right now I'm definitely intrigued!

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Re: Tales of New America
« Reply #72 on: March 20, 2013, 03:56:01 PM »
I've mentioned The Last Centurion here before with reference to societal trust -- high level trust does better, even today -- and how race and culture determines the trust level.

Butterworth's "Tales" echo some of what Ringo posited in his tale.  One thing that stuck with me is Ringo's description of the small communities which cobbled themselves together here in the US, and that, in them, the main "problem children" were usually the Black females.  They were bossy, disruptive, disrespectful of Whites, particularly White men, and were held in contempt by "hispanic" men.

Now, anyone with has dealt with this type of loudly-filibustering, head-thrusting, finger-pointing woman knows exactly the type.  Stereotypes exist for a reason.

On the other hand, we've been dealing with our insurance agent for twenty years now; a smart, very nice, Black woman who has never steered us wrong.  But ... we've never had a confrontation either, so ...... who knows.
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Re: Tales of New America
« Reply #73 on: March 27, 2013, 11:59:10 AM »
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

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Re: Tales of New America
« Reply #74 on: April 09, 2013, 07:17:49 PM »
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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Re: Tales of New America
« Reply #75 on: April 09, 2013, 09:02:56 PM »
Loved the series. Not the ending.  Disappointing to me, personally.  I do not think it lived up to its potential.
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Offline Alphabet Soup

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Re: Tales of New America
« Reply #76 on: April 09, 2013, 09:55:39 PM »
Loved the series. Not the ending.  Disappointing to me, personally.  I do not think it lived up to its potential.

Agree. I stopped for a moment when I realized that I was silently adding up the typos. It was like he was rushed, ran out of steam, or lost interest.

Or perhaps it was like mental gymnastics - not really meaning to put out a finished product but rather getting some troublesome notions off his chest (I've never done that).

Offline Libertas

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Re: Tales of New America
« Reply #77 on: April 10, 2013, 06:50:35 AM »
I agree it kinda fizzled out, but there is time to fix that if he has a mind to.  I have some issues with his narrative but like 'Soup said earlier the interest was in seeing where this all went to.
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charlesoakwood

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Re: Tales of New America
« Reply #78 on: April 10, 2013, 09:49:27 AM »

The general was going full Jim Jones, internal dissatisfaction with the NAR were surfacing, Mexican cartels give up without a fight, life in the Chihuahua desert is wonderful. Many possibilities for development withered on the vine.