Topic: Pope Jumps Another Shark: Church will fail if mired in rules for gays, abortion

[RickZ]

This guy got elected Pope?

http://news.msn.com/world/pope-church-will-fail-if-mired-in-rules-for-gays-abortion

Church will fail if mired in rules for gays, abortion

Unless the Catholic Church focuses on being a welcoming, healing place instead of on doctrine about divisive issues, it will fail, the pope says.


VATICAN CITY — Pope Francis is warning that the Catholic Church's moral edifice might "fall like a house of cards" if it doesn't balance its divisive rules about abortion, gays and contraception with the greater need to make the church a merciful, more welcoming place for all.

Six months into his papacy, Francis set out his vision for the church and his priorities as pope in a remarkably candid and lengthy interview with La Civilta Cattolica, the Italian Jesuit magazine. It was published simultaneously Thursday in other Jesuit journals, including America magazine in the U.S.

In the 12,000-word article, Francis expands on his ground-breaking comments over the summer about gays and acknowledges some of his own faults. He sheds light on his favorite composers, artists, authors and films — Mozart, Caravaggio, Dostoevsky and Fellini's "La Strada" — and says he prays even while at the dentist's office.

But his vision of what the church should be stands out, primarily because it contrasts so sharply with many of the priorities of his immediate predecessors John Paul II and Benedict XVI. They were both intellectuals for whom doctrine was paramount, an orientation that guided the selection of generations of bishops and cardinals around the globe.

Francis said the dogmatic and the moral teachings of the church were not all equivalent.

"The church's pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently," Francis said. "We have to find a new balance; otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel."

Rather, he said, the Catholic Church must be like a "field hospital after battle," healing the wounds of its faithful and going out to find those who have been hurt, excluded or have fallen away.

"It is useless to ask a seriously injured person if he has high cholesterol and about the level of his blood sugars!" Francis said. "You have to heal his wounds. Then we can talk about everything else."

"The church sometimes has locked itself up in small things, in small-minded rules," he lamented. "The most important thing is the first proclamation: Jesus Christ has saved you. And the ministers of the church must be ministers of mercy above all."

The admonition is likely to have sharp reverberations in the United States, where some bishops have already publicly voiced dismay that Francis hasn't hammered home church teaching on abortion, contraception and homosexuality — areas of the culture wars where U.S. bishops often put themselves on the front lines. U.S. bishops were also behind Benedict's crackdown on American nuns, who were accused of letting doctrine take a backseat to their social justice work caring for the poor — precisely the priority that Francis is endorsing.

Just last week, Bishop Thomas Tobin of Providence, Rhode Island, wrote in his diocesan newspaper that he was "a little bit disappointed" that Francis hadn't addressed abortion since being elected.

Francis acknowledged that he had been "reprimanded" for not speaking out on such issues. But he said he didn't need to.

"We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible," he said. "The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time."

Francis, the first Jesuit to become pope, was interviewed by Civilta Cattolica's editor, the Rev. Antonio Spadaro, over three days in August at the Vatican hotel where Francis chose to live rather than the papal apartments. The Vatican vets all content of the journal, and the pope approved the Italian version of the article.

Nothing Francis said in this or other interviews indicate any change in church teaching. But he has set a different tone and signaled new priorities compared to Benedict and John Paul — priorities that have already been visible in his simple style, his outreach to the most marginalized and his insistence that priests be pastors, not bureaucrats.

Two months ago, Francis caused a sensation during an inflight news conference when he was asked about gay priests. "Who am I to judge?" about the sexual orientation of priests, as long as they are searching for God and have good will, he responded.

Francis noted in the latest interview that he had merely repeated church teaching (though he again neglected to repeat church teaching that says while homosexuals should be treated with dignity and respect, homosexual acts are "intrinsically disordered.")

But he continued: "A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality. I replied with another question: 'Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?'

"We must always consider the person. In life, God accompanies persons, and we must accompany them, starting from their situation. It is necessary to accompany them with mercy. When that happens, the Holy Spirit inspires the priest to say the right thing."

The key, he said, is for the church to welcome, not exclude and show mercy, not condemnation.

"This church with which we should be thinking is the home of all, not a small chapel that can hold only a small group of selected people. We must not reduce the bosom of the universal church to a nest protecting our mediocrity," he said.

Great.  Gays:  Now taking applications for the priesthood and sisterhood.  What a Church!  What's next, Christ was gay because he didn't marry?

[Predator Don]

Man, it must be fantastic to know you can wallow in sinful lust, not flee from it, and be accepted by the church. Hell, maybe rewarded for it.  Religion is so great.

[Pandora]

Even the prophets of Israel that prophesy to Jerusalem, and that see visions of peace for her: and there is no peace, saith the Lord God. And thou, son of man, set thy face against the daughters of thy people that prophesy out of their own heart: and do thou prophesy against them, And say: Thus saith the Lord God: Woe to them that sew cushions under every elbow: and make pillows for the heads of persons of every age to catch souls: and when they caught the souls of my people, they gave life to their souls. And they violated me among my people, for a handful of barley, and a piece of bread, to kill souls which should not die, and to save souls alive which should not live, telling lies to my people that believe lies. Therefore thus saith the Lord God: Behold I declare against your cushions, wherewith you catch flying souls: and I will tear them off from your arms: and I will let go the souls that you catch, the souls that should fly.  And I will tear your pillows, and will deliver my people out of your hand, neither shall they be any more in your hands to be a prey: and you shall know that I am the Lord. Because with lies you have made the heart of the just to mourn, whom I have not made sorrowful: and have strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his evil way, and live. Therefore you shall not see vain things, nor divine divinations any more, and I will deliver my people out of your hand: and you shall know that I am the Lord.
Ezechiel 13: 16-23

Sew cushions: Viz., by making people easy in their sins, and promising them impunity.

They gave life to their souls: That is, they flattered them with promises of life, peace, and security.

Violated me: That is, dishonoured and discredited me.

To kill souls: That is, to sentence souls to death, which are not to die; and to promise life to them who are not to live.

http://www.barnhardt.biz/2013/09/17/on-jibberish-flattery-and-francis/

[LadyVirginia]

As you read the interview, and media coverage of the interview, you will find – and this is consistent with Pope Francis’ style of talking off-the-cuff – some truly quotable quotes, leap-out quotes that sit up and beg to be taken out of context.  Look at what the MSM is doing with some of them.

For example, the New York Times leads with a headline “Pope Bluntly Faults Church’s Focus on Gays and Abortion (By Laurie Goodstein).” Oh really? Is that what Pope Francis did? CBS has “Pope Francis: Catholic Church must focus beyond “small-minded rules” and goes on to say “Pope Francis has warned that the Catholic Church’s moral structure might “fall like a house of cards” if it doesn’t balance its divisive rules about abortion, gays and contraception with the greater need to make it a merciful, more welcoming place for all.” Oh really? Is that what Pope Francis really said? The CBS statement makes the Pope sound as if he think that they Church has the change it’s teaching about abortion or homosexuality or it will collapse like a house of cards.

Even if you haven’t read the whole interview/article, some 12000 words, common sense tells you that that is not what the Pope said.

It is important when reading the interview, and media coverage of the interview, to keep your eyes on those leap-out quotes. When you see the MSM using those leap-out quotes in a way that doesn’t pass the smell test, go back and look at the context, the whole paragraph.

The whole context of the paragraph deconstructs the leap-out quotes and makes those quotes make sense.

Also, think about the “Francis effect” in the reporting of this interview.

For example, if Benedict XVI – talking in an interview about the need for a theology of women and a deeper discussion of the role of women in the Church – had said what Francis said, the headlines would have screamed “POPE DENIES EQUALITY TO WOMEN!”. On the other hand, Francis, in this interview, spoke with real disdain for “female machismo” as a solution to the question of women’s roles. When you read the paragraph on women and women’s roles in the Church you discover that Pope Francis is NOT a fan of radical feminism. Francis about about what Popes before him have called “feminine genius”. Nothing new. He said, “a woman has a different make-up than a man” and “we must not confuse the function with the dignity.” But since this is Francis being interviewed, and not Benedict or John Paul, journalists will go withsomething like, “POPE WANTS GREATER ROLES FOR WOMEN!”.  You won’t read what the Pope really communicated: Yes, women must play an important role in the Church, but men’s roles and women’s roles are different, and that also means that women can’t be ordained.


***

Week by week a Francis of the Media is being crafted.

Another point:

Pope’s don’t govern through interviews.

Pope Francis’ speaks about a lot of heavy and burning issues: the role of women, abortion and homosexuality, to name a few. There is not a word in the interview that changes the Church’s teaching. He indicates what his interests and focus for his limited time and energy is going to be. That is an important take away from the interview.

If this Pope isn’t going to speak out a great deal about abortion or homosexuality, it’s because he knows that everyone is perfectly clear about what the Church teaches on these points. Francis – as is consistent with his old-fashioned Jesuit training – wants to be efficient in the use of his time and energy.

Because the Church’s teachings are clear, Francis will spend his precious time and energy showing a side of the Church that people, especially the MSM, hasn’t paid attention to: that the Church is not a museum of the perfect, it is a field hospital for sinners. Pope Francis is reminding the whole world that we are sinners and that we have to have compassion for each other, patience with each other, that we have to work to help each other even at some great cost.  Francis is, to put it simply, touching up the Church’s human face and presenting her anew to a jaded, fallen world.

link

[Predator Don]

As you read the interview, and media coverage of the interview, you will find – and this is consistent with Pope Francis’ style of talking off-the-cuff – some truly quotable quotes, leap-out quotes that sit up and beg to be taken out of context.  Look at what the MSM is doing with some of them.

For example, the New York Times leads with a headline “Pope Bluntly Faults Church’s Focus on Gays and Abortion (By Laurie Goodstein).” Oh really? Is that what Pope Francis did? CBS has “Pope Francis: Catholic Church must focus beyond “small-minded rules” and goes on to say “Pope Francis has warned that the Catholic Church’s moral structure might “fall like a house of cards” if it doesn’t balance its divisive rules about abortion, gays and contraception with the greater need to make it a merciful, more welcoming place for all.” Oh really? Is that what Pope Francis really said? The CBS statement makes the Pope sound as if he think that they Church has the change it’s teaching about abortion or homosexuality or it will collapse like a house of cards.

Even if you haven’t read the whole interview/article, some 12000 words, common sense tells you that that is not what the Pope said.

It is important when reading the interview, and media coverage of the interview, to keep your eyes on those leap-out quotes. When you see the MSM using those leap-out quotes in a way that doesn’t pass the smell test, go back and look at the context, the whole paragraph.

The whole context of the paragraph deconstructs the leap-out quotes and makes those quotes make sense.

Also, think about the “Francis effect” in the reporting of this interview.

For example, if Benedict XVI – talking in an interview about the need for a theology of women and a deeper discussion of the role of women in the Church – had said what Francis said, the headlines would have screamed “POPE DENIES EQUALITY TO WOMEN!”. On the other hand, Francis, in this interview, spoke with real disdain for “female machismo” as a solution to the question of women’s roles. When you read the paragraph on women and women’s roles in the Church you discover that Pope Francis is NOT a fan of radical feminism. Francis about about what Popes before him have called “feminine genius”. Nothing new. He said, “a woman has a different make-up than a man” and “we must not confuse the function with the dignity.” But since this is Francis being interviewed, and not Benedict or John Paul, journalists will go withsomething like, “POPE WANTS GREATER ROLES FOR WOMEN!”.  You won’t read what the Pope really communicated: Yes, women must play an important role in the Church, but men’s roles and women’s roles are different, and that also means that women can’t be ordained.


***

Week by week a Francis of the Media is being crafted.

Another point:

Pope’s don’t govern through interviews.

Pope Francis’ speaks about a lot of heavy and burning issues: the role of women, abortion and homosexuality, to name a few. There is not a word in the interview that changes the Church’s teaching. He indicates what his interests and focus for his limited time and energy is going to be. That is an important take away from the interview.

If this Pope isn’t going to speak out a great deal about abortion or homosexuality, it’s because he knows that everyone is perfectly clear about what the Church teaches on these points. Francis – as is consistent with his old-fashioned Jesuit training – wants to be efficient in the use of his time and energy.

Because the Church’s teachings are clear, Francis will spend his precious time and energy showing a side of the Church that people, especially the MSM, hasn’t paid attention to: that the Church is not a museum of the perfect, it is a field hospital for sinners. Pope Francis is reminding the whole world that we are sinners and that we have to have compassion for each other, patience with each other, that we have to work to help each other even at some great cost.  Francis is, to put it simply, touching up the Church’s human face and presenting her anew to a jaded, fallen world.

link

Great, the new Pope is a panderer and naive if he thinks the MSM will change it's strips towards anything religion. I'd say he isn't speaking out on homosexuality and abortion because HE IS pandering to the MSM.

Our religious leaders treat the MSM better than they treat God.

[trapeze]

Our religious leaders treat the MSM better than they treat God.

And there will be a price to pay for that.

[IronDioPriest]

You know, I heard the Pope's comments in their entirety this evening, recited verbatim by Hugh Hewitt.

He's getting smeared by the press. There's no way to come away from what the Pope said in its entirety with the opinion that the Pope is condoning, excusing, or ignoring the implications of any immoral behavior. In fact the exact opposite is true.

I'll see if I can find a transcript when I have more time.

[LadyVirginia]

You know, I heard the Pope's comments in their entirety this evening, recited verbatim by Hugh Hewitt.

He's getting smeared by the press. There's no way to come away from what the Pope said in its entirety with the opinion that the Pope is condoning, excusing, or ignoring the implications of any immoral behavior. In fact the exact opposite is true.

I'll see if I can find a transcript when I have more time.

here you go:

http://www.americamagazine.org/pope-interview

It's quite long, and frankly, I don't have time right now to read it but I will.  I don't trust the media to report conservative issues properly nor religious ones for that matter. I will read it for myself and not let Fox or NYT tell me what to think or believe.

[IronDioPriest]

The Leftists picked and chose a few words from this, and turned the meaning into the exact opposite of what the context shows.

He's just preaching forgiveness of sins, and God's supremacy as the judge of men. Nothing new.

Pope Benedict XVI, in announcing his resignation, said that the contemporary world is subject to rapid change and is grappling with issues of great importance for the life of faith. Dealing with these issues requires strength of body and soul, Pope Benedict said. I ask Pope Francis: “What does the church need most at this historic moment? Do we need reforms? What are your wishes for the church in the coming years? What kind of church do you dream of?”

Pope Francis begins by showing great affection and immense respect for his predecessor: “Pope Benedict has done an act of holiness, greatness, humility. He is a man of God.

“I see clearly,” the pope continues, “that the thing the church needs most today is the ability to heal wounds and to warm the hearts of the faithful; it needs nearness, proximity. I see the church as a field hospital after battle. It is useless to ask a seriously injured person if he has high cholesterol and about the level of his blood sugars! You have to heal his wounds. Then we can talk about everything else. Heal the wounds, heal the wounds.... And you have to start from the ground up.

“The church sometimes has locked itself up in small things, in small-minded rules. The most important thing is the first proclamation: Jesus Christ has saved you. And the ministers of the church must be ministers of mercy above all. The confessor, for example, is always in danger of being either too much of a rigorist or too lax. Neither is merciful, because neither of them really takes responsibility for the person. The rigorist washes his hands so that he leaves it to the commandment. The loose minister washes his hands by simply saying, ‘This is not a sin’ or something like that. In pastoral ministry we must accompany people, and we must heal their wounds.

“How are we treating the people of God? I dream of a church that is a mother and shepherdess. The church’s ministers must be merciful, take responsibility for the people and accompany them like the good Samaritan, who washes, cleans and raises up his neighbor. This is pure Gospel. God is greater than sin. The structural and organizational reforms are secondary—that is, they come afterward. The first reform must be the attitude. The ministers of the Gospel must be people who can warm the hearts of the people, who walk through the dark night with them, who know how to dialogue and to descend themselves into their people’s night, into the darkness, but without getting lost. The people of God want pastors, not clergy acting like bureaucrats or government officials. The bishops, particularly, must be able to support the movements of God among their people with patience, so that no one is left behind. But they must also be able to accompany the flock that has a flair for finding new paths.

“Instead of being just a church that welcomes and receives by keeping the doors open, let us try also to be a church that finds new roads, that is able to step outside itself and go to those who do not attend Mass, to those who have quit or are indifferent. The ones who quit sometimes do it for reasons that, if properly understood and assessed, can lead to a return. But that takes audacity and courage.”

I mention to Pope Francis that there are Christians who live in situations that are irregular for the church or in complex situations that represent open wounds. I mention the divorced and remarried, same-sex couples and other difficult situations. What kind of pastoral work can we do in these cases? What kinds of tools can we use?

“We need to proclaim the Gospel on every street corner,” the pope says, “preaching the good news of the kingdom and healing, even with our preaching, every kind of disease and wound. In Buenos Aires I used to receive letters from homosexual persons who are ‘socially wounded’ because they tell me that they feel like the church has always condemned them. But the church does not want to do this. During the return flight from Rio de Janeiro I said that if a homosexual person is of good will and is in search of God, I am no one to judge. By saying this, I said what the catechism says. Religion has the right to express its opinion in the service of the people, but God in creation has set us free: it is not possible to interfere spiritually in the life of a person.

“A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality. I replied with another question: ‘Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?’ We must always consider the person. Here we enter into the mystery of the human being. In life, God accompanies persons, and we must accompany them, starting from their situation. It is necessary to accompany them with mercy. When that happens, the Holy Spirit inspires the priest to say the right thing.

“This is also the great benefit of confession as a sacrament: evaluating case by case and discerning what is the best thing to do for a person who seeks God and grace. The confessional is not a torture chamber, but the place in which the Lord’s mercy motivates us to do better. I also consider the situation of a woman with a failed marriage in her past and who also had an abortion. Then this woman remarries, and she is now happy and has five children. That abortion in her past weighs heavily on her conscience and she sincerely regrets it. She would like to move forward in her Christian life. What is the confessor to do?

“We cannot insist only on issues related to abortion, gay marriage and the use of contraceptive methods. This is not possible. I have not spoken much about these things, and I was reprimanded for that. But when we speak about these issues, we have to talk about them in a context. The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time.

“The dogmatic and moral teachings of the church are not all equivalent. The church’s pastoral ministry cannot be obsessed with the transmission of a disjointed multitude of doctrines to be imposed insistently. Proclamation in a missionary style focuses on the essentials, on the necessary things: this is also what fascinates and attracts more, what makes the heart burn, as it did for the disciples at Emmaus. We have to find a new balance; otherwise even the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards, losing the freshness and fragrance of the Gospel. The proposal of the Gospel must be more simple, profound, radiant. It is from this proposition that the moral consequences then flow.

“I say this also thinking about the preaching and content of our preaching. A beautiful homily, a genuine sermon must begin with the first proclamation, with the proclamation of salvation. There is nothing more solid, deep and sure than this proclamation. Then you have to do catechesis. Then you can draw even a moral consequence. But the proclamation of the saving love of God comes before moral and religious imperatives. Today sometimes it seems that the opposite order is prevailing. The homily is the touchstone to measure the pastor’s proximity and ability to meet his people, because those who preach must recognize the heart of their community and must be able to see where the desire for God is lively and ardent. The message of the Gospel, therefore, is not to be reduced to some aspects that, although relevant, on their own do not show the heart of the message of Jesus Christ.”

Our media needs to suffer consequences.

[trapeze]

Picking nits...It should be: Jesus Christ has saved you if only you will accept it.

[IronDioPriest]

Picking nits...It should be: Jesus Christ has saved you if only you will accept it.

Right, but Catholic doctrine is slightly different from that. Pope Francis is just reiterating Catholic doctrine, but the Leftists are cheering as if he's embraced all their perversions.

If you go to LadyV's link, from where I pulled the extensive quote, you'll see from the very opening of the interview, the Pope begins with "I am just a sinner". He repeats this. From that foundation, Catholic doctrine flows. This is nothing new for Catholics, and the Leftists are wrong to give the false impression that it is. We're all sinners, and God is our only judge. The Pope is a minister, and all God's children are his flock. Including homosexuals, and every other freak. That doctrine is well established.

Jesus said "Go, and sin no more", but first, he reached out in kindness and without judgment to the lowliest of sinners. That's Catholicism, in a nutshell.

[IronDioPriest]

I told you guys: Leftist smear campaign.

To further show his support of Catholic values, Pope Francis has now defrocked and excommunicated a priest in Melbourne, Australia, because of his support of gay marriage and women in the clergy.

[Libertas]

He might not be a flaming liberal, but I think it fair to say he is a fairly toasty socialist on socio-economic issues.

IMO it's been a steady decline from John Paul II whom I could at least respect as a person as well as a Christian leader.

[LadyVirginia]

He might not be a flaming liberal, but I think it fair to say he is a fairly toasty socialist on socio-economic issues.

I haven't studied Catholic social/economic doctrine but from my conversations with people who have the Catholic view isn't socialist/communist/what ever political title you like. They tell me people who haven't studied it often try to shoe horn it into a political category and then there are those who try to use it for their own advantage.  It intrigues me quite frankly and I wish I had the time to study it.

I would say it does appear to me that the Catholic teachings aren't rah-rah pro-Western economics winner take all.  I do seem to remember years ago something being published by the Pope criticizing the extremes of capitalism and my conservative friends being quite annoyed that the Pope didn't see capitalism only as the "answer".  I thought it quite amusing that they expected a religious leader from half way around the world to endorse their political view.

[Libertas]

He might not be a flaming liberal, but I think it fair to say he is a fairly toasty socialist on socio-economic issues.

I haven't studied Catholic social/economic doctrine but from my conversations with people who have the Catholic view isn't socialist/communist/what ever political title you like. They tell me people who haven't studied it often try to shoe horn it into a political category and then there are those who try to use it for their own advantage.  It intrigues me quite frankly and I wish I had the time to study it.

I would say it does appear to me that the Catholic teachings aren't rah-rah pro-Western economics winner take all.  I do seem to remember years ago something being published by the Pope criticizing the extremes of capitalism and my conservative friends being quite annoyed that the Pope didn't see capitalism only as the "answer".  I thought it quite amusing that they expected a religious leader from half way around the world to endorse their political view.

Not sure it is a projection issue (maybe for some), I tend to see it in terms of emphasis...it's like the Cold War era and leftists thinking anybody against Soviet totalitarianism is a war-monger, or an extreme environazi thinking any private industry is purposely evil and interested only in raping the earth and killing people in the process...it is easy to pick on the excesses of capitalism (for which there are laws to punish the transgressors, or used to be until cronyism took root, is Corzine rotting in jail?) but it does not give people the right to give the other extreme a free pass because they appear to be for the little guy and join in the demonization of capitalism.  IMO the Church of Rome of late has been overly preachy one direction.  I never agreed with 100% of what JP2 said but when he advocated looking after the poor and misfortunate he did so in a manner that gave the impression he wasn't taking sides.  Maybe someday real capitalism and personal responsibility and accountability will return along with fair treatment of all people and a nonpartisan press...but I would be a liar if I held out much hope for any of that.

[Pandora]

I do seem to remember years ago something being published by the Pope criticizing the extremes of capitalism and my conservative friends being quite annoyed that the Pope didn't see capitalism only as the "answer".  I thought it quite amusing that they expected a religious leader from half way around the world to endorse their political view.

It's not political, it's reality, and it is the only answer.  Lightly regulated free markets have lifted millions out of poverty and misery; it's the best solution for the human condition.  And the only "system" that provides enough wealth to voluntarily share with the always-with-us poor.

The pope is a Jesuit.  Jesuits have been communist/socialist for a long time.  And socialism, because the socialists never mean to live within it as it's meant only for the hoi poloi, sucks.

[trapeze]

I told you guys: Leftist smear campaign.

To further show his support of Catholic values, Pope Francis has now defrocked and excommunicated a priest in Melbourne, Australia, because of his support of gay marriage and women in the clergy.

Yep, you were right and I was wrong. The stuff that he said, though, was not helpful in characterizing himself.

I would be really impressed, though, if he excommunicated a few liberal catholic politicians starting with the wicked witch of the west.