Topic: What Do You Score On This Survey?

[IronDioPriest]

Let's stop accusing each other of murderous desires and of being liberal, shall we? It's been a fairly civil and pointed conversation over an important and divisive topic. Spinning out of control with namecalling is pretty useless.

As I said when I first piped up, turning against each other over this kind of thing serves the enemy, and makes him grin. I have my eye on the real enemy, and it is not Weisshaupt, Charles Oakwood, ar anyone else here.

[Weisshaupt]

As I said when I first piped up, turning against each other over this kind of thing serves the enemy, and makes him grin. I have my eye on the real enemy, and it is not Weisshaupt, Charles Oakwood, ar anyone else here.

No,  claiming a right to enslave another and take things by force serves the enemy. It always has, and it always  will. The name calling is incidental to that act.

Social Security is nothing but a fraudulent  claim on the labor of others a claim that is unearned and invalid. The First generation paid nothing and stole the money from the first payers, and subsequent generations claim a right to steal from their innocent children to make up for what was stolen from them.  If that isn't Satanic, I don't know what is.

SS was created and implemented by FDR, a Marxist Fascist if there ever was one, with the EXPRESS PURPOSE of creating dependence and sapping American initiative. It was the first bribe offered to the American people to give up their individual  will and personal responsibility - to rely on the government to care for them instead of their own ability and family.   And so many took it and are willing to look the other way when they know its sisters, Welfare, Medicare, Medicaid and Obamacare ( a program implemented for the express purpose of creating death panels and Marxist Geriatricide) are evil. But if you want SS you have to signup for Medicare, don't you? Its a system designed to draw Americans into sin - against God and against each other.

Then,  after having sinned, the system encourages it to compound,  encouraging those in it to cling  to the lie that an obviously immoral Ponzi scheme based on thuggish theft is somehow a legitimate operation like a bank or annuity broker in an attempt to placate their conscience and  justify their theft. Have someone point that out,, and the sin compounds further, compelling some to bear false witness and claim  that  anyone who deprives Seniors of their income of  ill gotten gains and expects them  live responsibly and if needed depend on the voluntary charity of  friends, family, church and community rather than forced theft is trying to KILL them. (But forcefully depriving me of my income of honestly  earned gains isn't trying to kill me)  Yes, Satan is laughing with glee at those he has ensnared.

I have known what SS  was all of my life, and I have never expected to see one dime from it, and if I did it would be a undeserved and lucky bounty. This attitude is near universal in my generation because it was obvious the Ponzi would break and we would get  nothing. We have always prepared for our future retirement with the expectation that we alone would fund it, and accepted the losses that SS represented as the theft it was.  No one owes me a dime because I paid SS, because SS is a criminal enterprise.  

The criminal nature was just as obvious to those in the prior generation. Those who failed to fully fund their retirement through their own efforts, and  knowingly counted on SS, counted on being in a generation that was paid, and made a decision to depend upon money forcefully stolen from those they knew would never collect.  They sold their souls to the devil and conspired to enslave not only their fellow man, but their own children. They made a conscious decision to accept the lie that they are owed money from their children's bank accounts, because after all their parents stole from theirs. (The same is asserted about Reparations for slavery)

That is what causes the strife between us  IDP.  The same thing that causes the strife between us and the liberals. The expectation that you can get something for nothing by using the government to enslave others to provide it.  Buying in to an ideology that "someone owes you"  is the devils work. SS all the more insidious because decades of forced theft from you leaves you hungrier  for payback.  It was because we were silent that these systems perpetuate. It is because we were civil that the lost so much. I can no longer let such declarations pass without a rebuke.  No one owes anyone for anything unless you voluntarily contracted for the work, and by mutual consent agreed to pay. Anything else is by definition is criminal, immoral and evil.  It is, at the very heart, what we are fighting against , and we need to fight for it even it it  hurts us personally.  I have money in SS too.  I wrote it off before I started for what it is : a theft. A tax.

I stand by what I said before. Go ahead and take what you can from the criminals while it lasts. Just don't advertise or believe the lie that you are owed or earned the money you receive. Your money was stolen and lost.  It was not put on account, you didn't purchase an annuity, and no legally binding promise of insurance  was made to you. .  Owed. Earned.  Account. Annuity. Insurance- those  words refer to legitimate and voluntary dealings, and SS is not.  To declare them in the context of SS  is to declare a lie, to provide cover for and justify the perpetuation of an evil and fraudulent system, and, in so doing, you only  help the devil and encourage others to accept his works.
 
 

[warpmine]

Damn shame nobody in that Congress in the 30's had this debate so we could have exposed it to what it really is, theft of the future generations. Each rung of the welfare statist ladder is welded into place with all but a few understanding the the wholesale evil of them. I knew since my introduction into the workplace that I would never get a red cent from the ponzi scheme but only recently, the last three years did I full understand the evil but then I was never versed in Bible.

Weiss is absolutely correct when he says we can absorb this older generation back amongst the family if we stop now. Those that don't have that family should have already have enough saved since they never had the burden of pouring their earnings into extra food, diapers, medical care and education into a new generation. ZIRP and high inflation has already killed any attempt at savings for me and so I look forward to my inevitable death and pray that comes within my insurance policy's requirement.

I to look forward to a civil war for the obvious retuning of the government and the thinning of the parasites of welfare state. The reality, is we were all warned extensively on the Bible but many decided it was an obsolete book that was only dedicated for the welfare of souls of men and women. We were ignorant fools and we are now being judged but not for what we think. Not for compassion of other men but for falling into the ultimate traps of Lucifer, socialism.

[IronDioPriest]

...Go ahead and take what you can from the criminals while it lasts...

Which criminals? You mean the slaves who have been robbed by the government? What right have you to the redistribution of their money?

You're talking yourself into knots. Your "bust the system" claim to moral high ground is specious. You decry those who want what was promised, but you will gladly take it because you think it's the quickest way to break the immoral system we all paid into. You can feel good about yourself for taking that money as long as it lasts because you've prepped and you will be ready when it all collapses, but you would deny it to those who want promises fulfilled, and whose lives will be destroyed after you've contributed to collapsing the systems upon which they wrongfully depend because of a lie.

I still call BS, and I still say you have so much money and emotion invested in societal collapse that you're unable to see your own moral relativism when it comes to judging intentions vs actions in this regard.

Considering everything you've said about the evils of those who depend on the redistributive regime, the only choice for you to make and remain morally, intellectually, and ethically consistent is for you to refuse to take another red cent from this immoral redistributive government. Then you would have a claim on cutting it off from those who you revile. But instead you're taking the exact opposite position from moral, intellectual, and ethical consistency. You have no claim on cutting it off, and by advocating sucking on the teat for whatever reason, you are no better than those who depend on the system.

[Weisshaupt]

Which criminals? You mean the slaves who have been robbed by the government? What right have you to the redistribution of their money?

No I mean the Government Criminals.  The people who do the robbing of the slaves. The people who make the SS payments as a Bribe so they can remain in power. The SSI administration is a criminal enterprise.

You decry those who want what was promised, but you will gladly take it because you think it's the quickest way to break the immoral system we all paid into.

No. I understand perfectly why you want to get your money back for the people who took it. There is nothing immoral about that.  But since that is impossible, you decide to take money that was stolen from others. Its blood money.  and its immoral to take it regardless of your motivations or ultimate goals.  I do not pretend it is noble or moral do go on the dole for the purposes of breaking the system, merely that it is the one means I see available to fight back ( other than simply beginning a shooting war - and killing people in a shooting war is also immoral BTW)   I have said nothing other than this, and I don't understand why you refuse to accept it at face value.  I should also note that I have not actually gone on the dole myself at this point. I find the action repugnant, and I will probably avoid it until circumstances force me to it.

But lets return to these "promises"  - Who promised you money? Was your agreement with them voluntary, or coerced? Show me, in writing what they promised you.  Since its inception Social Security has been a tax with NO PROMISES LEGALLY IMPLIED OR GIVEN.  Please stop pretending it was ever otherwise because you choose not to see it that way, and buy in to the lies about "investments" .   You are dealing with promises offered by  Criminals.   Al Capone may have promised all sorts of things,  but really it was just   protection money. As long as you piad it his goons would leave you alone.  Now, for being such a good customer, he pays you monthly  back so you won't make waves and will be against the repeal ( at least till you get yours- funny how you are paid till you die)  of the very system that he used to shake down steal from you for years.

I didn't promise you anything. I certainly didn't consent to being the victim of the Mafia who collects and pays  your blood money to  you. If you think that mafia is keeping its "promises" , then you know the method by which it is doing so, and you also know that the people they are currently taking it from were not offered the "promises" you were offered. There is no pretext that we will get paid anything., and that is anything other than protection money.

but you would deny it to those who want promises fulfilled, and whose lives will be destroyed after you've contributed to collapsing the systems upon which they wrongfully depend because of a lie.

"but you would deny it to those who want promises fulfilled at the expense of our innocent children,  and whose lives will be destroyed  unless they sacrifice the lives of their  children   by perpetuating  the systems upon which they wrongfully depend because of a lie."

There. Fixed it for ya. But I do note that you admit it was a lie and you were wrong to believe it. That is progress. .

You were told a  Lie like those Bernie Madoff told.  You are right to be angry that someone held a gun to your head and forced you to invest in  false promises and lies - but NO ONE forced you to decide to depend upon that fraudulent system and bogus investment.   Your generation decided to do that WITHOUT being coerced.  I was forced to invest with Bernie too, but I am not demanding that anyone else pay for my loss, and I worked harder and saved more because I chose to NOT depend upon that.  I fail to see how the bad decisions of others obligates those who did not make them to submit to forceful robbery on their behalf.  You could try asking us to help, but I note that isn't what is proposed. What is proposed it that Bernie hire a bunch of Al Capone's thugs to keep the system working for one more generation , at the expense and loss of the next generation.

I still call BS, and I still say you have so much money and emotion invested in societal collapse that you're unable to see your own moral relativism when it comes to judging intentions vs actions in this regard.

As I have already stated, multiple times,  I do not believe going on the dole to be a moral action, nor do I believe it "justified" by an higher goal I might have. I will pay for my sins before God like any other mortal. If saying that is "moral relativism" then so be it.  I am not judging anyone who takes the payment. If God has a problem with it, then God can deal with it in his time.  My problem is with anyone who wishes to obfuscate and lie about the true nature of that payment.  A payment taken by force and threat of imprisonment or death, made on socialist grounds of "Gemeinnutz geht vor Eigennutz"  and nothing else - not earnings, not a contract, not consent, but a bargain of pure evil, in which one  promises to submit to slavery and only call it by other names  (investment, insurance, an account) as long as they  are promised the opportunity to recoup their losses by enslaving others later. Others who are your own children and who   are not even offered that  same deal  

Considering everything you've said about the evils of those who depend on the redistributive regime, the only choice for you to make and remain morally, intellectually, and ethically consistent is for you to refuse to take another red cent from this immoral redistributive government.

Oh , if I didn't have Kids and a wife, I would be right there with Ann Barnhardt. She IS taking the high road...a road I fear to tread for the effect it would have on my wife and kids. Perhaps its a moral failing on my part. I know Ann would tell me to have faith and trust God to guide us and keep us safe on that road.  Sadly, so far, I lack what I need spiritually to do that.  But I also lack the resolve to go on the dole just yet as well.  Does taking legal tax deductions count as "taking money" as the Democrats would portray it? Because I do that.  I also had and paid off a Student Loan that was in part subsidized by the Fed. Does  that count? If not, then I currently don't take one red cent from the criminal enterprise.

You have no claim on cutting it off, and by advocating sucking on the teat for whatever reason, you are no better than those who depend on the system.

My claim to cutting it off is that its ill-gotten gains stolen from me via a corrupt and evil system.  
 Do you really deny I can justly  make such a claim?

However, Were  I on the Teat  I suspect you  would find me just as adamant that be cut off and removed - and to my own peril if that were the case.  If I ever suck at the teat its with FULL KNOWLEDGE that what I receive is NOT my DUE.  I am not Owed a damn thing, and therefore have no cause to complain were  it cut off suddenly, without warning, and to the detriment of me and mine.  My Preps are aimed at self-sufficiency for that reason - so that if and when I do go on the dole, I am never tempted to SIN and demand it as my due because I have come to  depend upon it.  Being Dependant upon a thing - especially ill gotten blood money stolen by slavery and force, doesn't because your due because you depend upon it , even if you were fooled into doing so. . After all,  the Criminals who run and leach the system depend upon it as well, and if they depend upon it then we can't cut them off either, right?

 I understand that the temptation to this sin is strong, and that once caught, you are willing to sin more because the dependence has been established, the cancer has metastasized. But the choice to depend upon it still lies with the individual.  The choice to proclaim the sin as something other than what it is lies with the individual.  We are all sinners IDP and we all have our own crosses to bear. All I ask is that you carry your own and leave me to carry mine.  It is entirely possible that God would judge me more harshly for going on the Dole, for if I did I would do so with Full Knowledge of the Sin of it. I would do so not as the result of a lie, or a trick, but deliberately.  As I said, I don't pretend to understand Gods Karma accounting system. But of one thing I am sure- taking the blood and sweat of others and calling it your own, using it as your own is a sin. Even if you have come to depend upon it for survival.

[Weisshaupt]

Weiss is absolutely correct when he says we can absorb this older generation back amongst the family if we stop now. Those that don't have that family should have already have enough saved since they never had the burden of pouring their earnings into extra food, diapers, medical care and education into a new generation. ZIRP and high inflation has already killed any attempt at savings for me and so I look forward to my inevitable death and pray that comes within my insurance policy's requirement.

I would argue we have a moral duty to absorb them back, and that "family" has a much wider definition.  My Step-Dad, whom my Mom Divorced is more family to me now than my real parents ever were.  A friend from work, who was robbed of his retirement funds by his ex wife, and who  has selflessly helped me with my preps is also family. Right now they wouldn't need my help without SS, but if they ever did, they would find it and as much as I could offer.

I to look forward to a civil war for the obvious retuning of the government and the thinning of the parasites of welfare state.

And for all of our talk about some peaceful repeal of these programs,  and worries about those who would find themselves in a precarious position as a result,  it really is moot.  A war  or an all out collapse or both is going to result in far more deaths and far more suffering, and not just for the elderly. For everyone - for our children. These programs are gong to be repealed, and repealed the hard way.




 The reality, is we were all warned extensively on the Bible but many decided it was an obsolete book that was only dedicated for the welfare of souls of men and women. We were ignorant fools and we are now being judged but not for what we think. Not for compassion of other men but for falling into the ultimate traps of Lucifer, socialism.
[/quote]

[John Florida]

   Are we done fighting over this?We have plenty of people to fight with and none of them here.

[Libertas]

   Are we done fighting over this?We have plenty of people to fight with and none of them here.

The fact that people here cannot agree that a social welfare enslavement program begun more than 80 years ago cannot be immediately ended under any circumstance illustrates how truly effed we really are.  I see little difference in who gets labelled as a euthanasiaists (sp?) between those ending it now or the government ending it due to its complete collapse.  If the latter are we morally superior for having the deed done as a result of their failure rather than our choice?  And I do not buy the argument we cannot end it immediately...let those with younger relations care for their elderly, let those without family receive the charity of parishoners and self-proclaimed doo-gooders on the Left like those Hollywood jackasses doing all the feel-good PSA's demanding our time and money.  Either we are for small limited government or we are not.  It's like the healthcare debate all over again...what began as a limited desire to do something about a small minority of Americans morphed into healthcare mandates for all...apparently there is no such thing as too much government when an issue dear to ones heart is magnified under a microscope...and limited government is a swell notion, but it can now join the ranks of myths and legends.

Anyway the argument is moot, it will not be resolved, none of the gigantic issues confronting us will be resolved politically or peacefully...total system failure is all but assured...maybe completely assured...planning for the worst and hoping for the best is all there is...everything else is marking time...