Author Topic: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?  (Read 2378 times)

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Offline trapeze

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I stumbled across an obscure blogpost this morning or last night (can't remember where or when) and it is one of those things that is either total bullsh*t or it explains a LOT about what I see from day to day in the media and in DC.

The author's central premise (and the blogpost is quite short) is that people who are habitually dishonest become incapable of dealing properly with reality over time. This is because lying (in all its various forms) is a form of learning and the brain becomes conditioned to work within these confines (perpetual dishonesty).

Here is a quote from the blogpost although you should click on the link and read the whole thing because it isn't that long and it may stimulate something for you as it did for me:

Quote
Surveying the modern intellectual scene, the world of public discourse among the educational elites, I conclude that dishonesty does not only reduce the efficiency and effectiveness of thinking - but it actually reduces applied intelligence - probably by re-wiring the brain.

What I am suggesting is that, although the fundamental efficiency of neural processing is an hereditary characteristic which is robust to environmental differences and changes (short of something like destructive brain pathology - encephalitis, neurotoxin, head injury, dementia etc) - habitual dishonesty  (such as is mainstream among the modern intellectual elite) will generate brain changes, and a long-lasting (although probably, eventually, reversible) pathology in applied intelligence - such that what ought to be simple and obvious inferential reasoning becomes impossible.

I mean impossible.

Think about such things as:

-  Liberalism/leftism in general
-  9/11 trutherism
-  Denying that a fetus is a human
-  AGW (or cooling) or whatever
-  Various and sundry OWS memes
-  Socialism/Marxism as a viable economic model
-  Gun control reduces gun crime
-  Political correctness
-  The race grievance industry

These are but a few of the things which a large segment of the population believes with all of their hearts, souls and minds to be true but are mostly, if not entirely, utter nonsense. Not coincidentally, we refer to many of the proponents of and followers of these things as "true believers."

We watch (when forced to or when the opportunity presents itself) just about anyone on MSNBC say things that seem to be completely contrary to reality and we do not understand why or how they could say or believe such things. They literally do not make sense because they seem to be completely at odds with reality. And they are either exceptionally good actors or they really and truly do believe the utter bullsh*t that comes out of their mouths. I think that the above post explains how this might not be acting (as a way of advocating).

I can take this a lot further but I don't want to be selfish.

There is a companion article linked at the original blogpost which is much longer and provides additional food for thought on this subject. It explains how the super smart among us can be pretty stupid about certain things (common sense issues) and also utterly wrong on big issues.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 07:15:49 PM by trapeze »
In a doomsday scenario, hippies will be among the first casualties. So not everything about doomsday will be bad.

Offline Libertas

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2013, 07:34:45 PM »
For the former I always thought a liar trying to remember their last lie on a given inquiry would be exceptionally taxing and therefor impossible, making it necessary for the liar to adopt a new lie to be the undeniable truth.  Thus inconsistencies are avoided because a new truth simply replaced the previous one, no explanation is therefor necessary because the new truth trumps all.  Such juvenile thinking (if you can really call it thinking) seems totally insane to normal people, but then again for the insane it makes perfect sense because once again the new truth is proclaimed as undeniable, all skeptics of this truth are therefor ridiculed for being insane.  Hence the up is down, wrong is right nature of the backasswards world we are inflicted with courtesy of the moonbat crazy leftists.  I've always liked this explanation because it seems to fit the afflicted and is simple.  Perhaps this self-induced brainwashing explanation has some merit, it does not seem to negate but rather adds to my theory, especially with respect to explaining how habitual insanity can rewire brain function.  It seems to make sense, the host not wanting to cause injury to itself seeks to re-balance the operating system...the only avenue being to accept insanity as normal and the normal as an abberation to be ignored.

As far as the smart sucking at routine (hunter/gatherer) daily function, we have several examples of brilliant people and their "eccentricities".  The truly genius among us often devote so much thought to higher complex issues that simple day to day things get no allocation of resources...it is simply not important enough to waste valuable processing time on.  It also seems to exhibit itself in the generally poor social interaction skills of the gifted, being as so many are so severely introspective. Again, a low priority for processing resources.  Interesting stuff to ponder though.
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Offline trapeze

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2013, 09:20:40 PM »
One of the implications of this phenomenon, though, is the spread of the contagion into the popular culture through the media.

Remember the famous quote from Joseph Goebbels:   
   
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

Our present circumstances find a blurring of the line between the media and the state. The media serves the state and the state, well, it does whatever it likes.

So...where is this going?

I find a lot of untruths woven into plots and story lines in popular culture that, through repetition, become accepted as "truths" by a lot of people. For instance, how many times have you seen this plot device?

A man (evil developer)  purchases a piece of land and decides to do something with it. This land was deemed either too expensive or too worthless for anyone else to do anything with it but the developer sees some potential in it and purchases it anyway. When news of his plans for the property leak to the public the usual suspects (the "good" people) organize a protest to "stop" the developer from realizing the potential of his investment. Now, the busybodies don't want to buy the property at fair market value...they just want to somehow prevent the developer by any means possible (even violence) from exercising his private property rights. When they eventually win (because in the media they always win) the story ends and everyone live happily ever after (except the evil developer who does not deserve to breath).

That plot and its variants are extremely common in today's popular culture and yet, it is completely counter to the law and our heritage.

But, it is repeated ad infinitum in the media and there are enough people now that believe it that it becomes a true thing even though it is utter nonsense. So the public continues to be trained in untruths. And I say "continues" because these days the indoctrination into believing falsehoods starts in grade school and is seriously ramped up in college especially with political correctness training.

And this is how it becomes possible to not only elect but re-elect an absolute charlatan as president. He is custom tailored for the public at this point.

And our congress... The Senate Democrats' behavior should be self explanatory but why do the Republicans act as if they, too, have lost possession of their senses? Why would they, for instance, even consider let alone support amnesty when it is demonstrably detrimental to the future of their party? Why do they buy into the lie that they need to do this? Well, if they have become inured to truth then it becomes somewhat understandable that they are not able to properly process reality and come to a logical conclusion. This may explain why the "establishment" Republican party seems to ape the Democrats...why they seem to be "Democrat Lite." When they are fed a steady diet of untruths and begin to accept these untruths more and more then policy kind of follows. So we end up with not much difference between the Democrats and the (establishment) Republicans...we get the "we can do it better" rather than "they are wrong and we will do things completely different" sort of attitude.

As I said, there is a lot to explore here.
In a doomsday scenario, hippies will be among the first casualties. So not everything about doomsday will be bad.

Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2013, 09:42:15 PM »
Interesting.

I know people like this!

Unfortunately.   

So to take this on a more personal level-

Just as the post suggests I had begun to think that the people I know aren't capable of thinking any other way though I didn't have an explanation for it.  When I'm not frustrated I find it amazing.  I mean everyday offers proof that they are a party of one in their views of reality yet they can't see it.

I don't know if they were narcissistic first but they are now. It wears me out hearing them talk. So much of what they say are lies but they believe them as if they have to in order to get through the day.

I attribute a lot of it to the isolation and the faux independence people claim nowadays.  In the old days grandpa would've slapped you up side the head for being stupid and would've expected you to get your head on straight.  Now  people are afraid to hurt their kids feelings so they let them believe whatever.

edit:
having just read his post on the head girl syndrome I think that may also explain some politicians' behavior

and this little gem from today's post:
Quote
What happens now is that instead of selecting people on the basis of how they do the job, the job is redefined to include the kind of people you want to select.

thanks for sharing the link, Trap!
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 10:05:45 PM by LadyVirginia »
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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2013, 10:46:11 PM »
I don't like this theory for the simple reason that it gives an excuse for habitual lying: they can't help it because repetitive lying has made them too stupid to discern the truth.

No, I believe that each and every lie told is chosen; purposeful; deliberate. Each and every lie believed supports the ideology.

What is missing is not the intelligence to discern the truth, but rather the moral knowledge of right and wrong; they know they are lying and being lied to, they just don't know that lying is wrong. Their lack of moral discernment is reinforced by the fact that the lie furthers their ideology. So it's all wrapped up neat and tidy.

It's not a lack of intelligence, it's a lack of morality. It is good versus evil, not smart versus stupid.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

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Offline trapeze

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2013, 11:53:17 PM »
It's not a lack of intelligence, it's a lack of morality. It is good versus evil, not smart versus stupid.

I see it as the one leading to the other. It is good versus evil and then the wages of sin being death. In this case, brain death.
In a doomsday scenario, hippies will be among the first casualties. So not everything about doomsday will be bad.

Offline Libertas

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2013, 07:19:02 AM »
It's not a lack of intelligence, it's a lack of morality. It is good versus evil, not smart versus stupid.

I see it as the one leading to the other. It is good versus evil and then the wages of sin being death. In this case, brain death.

I agree it is hard to separate the one from the other...we can dispense with the chicken/egg argument...bottom line: the carriers of the virus can be unintelligent (lack of critical thinking ability, for whatever reason), overtly evil or both.  We don't really care about the "why", it is interesting the speculate upon, but in the end we have to realize all that is moot, it comes down to survival...them or us.

I do agree with IDP that we should not ascribe a cause to leftists or Pubbie enablers that exonerates them from responsibility for the actions they've taken.  As we all know ignorance can be cured...thusfar Pubbie enablers have shown no intention of wanting to be cured...therefor they are stupid or consciously in league with our enemies.  If the former they will no doubt find their way to removing themselves from our midst as a result of their condition...the latter are to be hunted down and slaughtered.
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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2013, 08:15:03 AM »
The guy has street cred

http://www.hedweb.com/bgcharlton/biog.html

Bruce Charlton MD
Reader in Evolutionary Psychiatry
Department of Psychology
University of Newcastle upon Tyne
NE2 4HH
England


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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2013, 08:35:48 AM »
I do like the theory.  It explains a lot.  It explains the sheer amount of bulls**t that is drowning our society.

Now, if our good doctor really want's to earn his money for the day, riddle me this.  Why are some immune?  I don't care how long one tells me 2 + 2 = 5, I will always know 2 + 2 = 4.  I don't care how uncool I look, to me being right trumps all.   Why is my brain different?

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2013, 09:22:29 AM »
Perfect example ....

Via Gateway Pundit --

"The NRA-ILA reported:

    Anti-gun U.S. Representative Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) recently urged members of Congress  to uphold their oath to “protect and defend” the Constitution by passing harsher gun control laws.  Yes, Pelosi is proposing that Congress should support the Constitution by radically violating it.  Such is the deconstructionist mindset of modern-day gun-control advocates.

    As reported by CNS News, Pelosi made the plea in a press release marking the one-year anniversary of the Aurora, Colorado shootings.  Said Pelosi:  “In Congress, there can be no more fitting memorial to the lives lost in Aurora, in Newtown, and across the country than a concerted effort to enact commonsense gun safety legislation.   We must uphold our oath to ‘protect and defend’ the constitution and all Americans by expanding background checks and keeping dangerous firearms out of the wrong hands.”"

Additionally:

"... the phrase “to protect and defend the Constitution” that Pelosi cited as the reason Congress must enact stricter gun control laws is actually not found in the oath that members of Congress take, but is, instead, a part of the Presidential Oath of Office; a small but significant mistake on Pelosi’s part."

Mistake?
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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2013, 09:56:38 AM »
It's not a lack of intelligence, it's a lack of morality. It is good versus evil, not smart versus stupid.

Sayet, had it right. Howard Zinn's quote IS liberalism.

Quote
Objectivity is impossible and it is also undesirable. That is, if it were possible it would be undesirable, because if you have any kind of a social aim, if you think history should serve society in some way; should serve the progress of the human race; should serve justice in some way, then it requires that you make your selection on the basis of what you think will advance causes of humanity.”

Liberals believe a lie that serves their ( oh so caring!) agenda  is noble.
Truth, where it does not serve the agenda, must be altered.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 10:28:10 AM by Weisshaupt »

Offline AlanS

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2013, 10:16:11 AM »
Locally, I've seen people who seem intelligent and successful vote dhimm just because that's the way they've ALWAYS voted. No reason or logic. ::outrage::
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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2013, 10:27:25 AM »

I agree it is hard to separate the one from the other...we can dispense with the chicken/egg argument...bottom line: the carriers of the virus can be unintelligent (lack of critical thinking ability, for whatever reason), overtly evil or both.  We don't really care about the "why", it is interesting the speculate upon, but in the end we have to realize all that is moot, it comes down to survival...them or us.

For years I was hoping to find the why and then work on a "cure" - but the reason is a Sayet says - because they reject the intellectual process altogether.  They want to return to Eden by throwing up the apple.  That that idiot woman who thinks that rejecting the personal responsibility of being the "good guy with the gun" will make there be no more bad guys with guns. The idea that if you do not acknowledge good nor evil,  then neither exists. If we do not acknowledge  that different groups have disparities in behavior, then they will all act the same.  They "side with the lesser over the better, the wrong over the right, and the evil over the good" because they want to live in a world where none of those things exist. They are convinced if they ignore what they know, if they stop thinking, if they become "beasts" it will become so.

Quote
"Creatures, I give you yourselves," said the strong, happy voice of Aslan. "I give to you forever this land of Narnia. I give you the woods, the fruits, the rivers. I give you the stars and I give you myself. The Dumb Beasts whom I have not chosen are yours also. Treat them gently and cherish them but do not go back to their ways lest you cease to be Talking Beasts. For out of them you were taken and into them you can return. Do not so."

So IDP, this is the question.. can you hold beasts responsible for their actions?   I think it is very likely that Aslan's words  are right - if you reject intellect consistently, you become an animal. You become "Feral", for what other word best describes it? Vermin. Spreaders of disease and pestilence. At some point, its no longer a choice, because you have robbed yourself of the power to choose or to think.  They heard Aslan's promise, and found it to be a great idea.
You can't reason with them, because at first they reject reason, and later, don't even comprehend the concept.  They no longer think- they just do, they just want, and they have no morals or principles.  They don't think about it anymore than any carnivore  spends hours on introspection on having to kill to eat. Watch them answer questions-= they are only trying to say whatever they can to get what they want.  When they understand that they can't get what they want ( at least from you) they shut up and say nothing. There is no thought as to what might be true.  I have never, ever, had a liberal try to explain to be why I am wrong, or why they are right - All liberals do - ever - is try to convince you to give them what they want - a feeling of superiority, unearned dignity, unearned merit, or a simple handout.  They never argue that they are "right" that a given idea is "true" because they reject the very idea of such a thing. They won't engage unless they perceive there is something in it for them, and the pursuit of truth for the sake of truth is totally outside their comprehension or experience, and they assume everyone else is just like them.

Offline Libertas

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2013, 11:25:43 AM »
Perfect example ....

Via Gateway Pundit --

"The NRA-ILA reported:

    Anti-gun U.S. Representative Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) recently urged members of Congress  to uphold their oath to “protect and defend” the Constitution by passing harsher gun control laws.  Yes, Pelosi is proposing that Congress should support the Constitution by radically violating it.  Such is the deconstructionist mindset of modern-day gun-control advocates.

    As reported by CNS News, Pelosi made the plea in a press release marking the one-year anniversary of the Aurora, Colorado shootings.  Said Pelosi:  “In Congress, there can be no more fitting memorial to the lives lost in Aurora, in Newtown, and across the country than a concerted effort to enact commonsense gun safety legislation.   We must uphold our oath to ‘protect and defend’ the constitution and all Americans by expanding background checks and keeping dangerous firearms out of the wrong hands.”"

Additionally:

"... the phrase “to protect and defend the Constitution” that Pelosi cited as the reason Congress must enact stricter gun control laws is actually not found in the oath that members of Congress take, but is, instead, a part of the Presidential Oath of Office; a small but significant mistake on Pelosi’s part."

Mistake?

...defend the constitution of the United States against enemies foreign and domestic..."

This left-wing psycho is declaring herself to be a domestic enemy of the constitution, as such it should be incumbent upon all good citizens to arrest, try, convict and execute this person for treason.
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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2013, 11:26:54 AM »
So IDP, this is the question.. can you hold beasts responsible for their actions?

My faith and common observation instruct me that without moral boundaries, all men are beasts, regardless of intellect. Without a moral code, we will inevitably pursue those activities that make us less human, insofar as humanity is defined by civilized behavior. Even in the presence of a moral code, our nature is to press against the boundaries of that code.

But the intellect is still there, even in the absence of morality. When we shed our morality, we are still able to understand cause and effect, especially when it is pointed out. The lack of moral code may allow us to justify the effect and deny the cause, but we are still capable of intellectually processing both.

So yes, I believe you can and should hold the human beasts responsible for their actions.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2013, 12:50:50 PM »

But the intellect is still there, even in the absence of morality.

Perhaps.  I have spent the last 10 years trying to find out,. But I really don't think  its possible. They aren't just immoral. They lack comprehension that they are moral agents.They reject the idea they are responsible for their own decisions, and in fact, make as few decisions of their own as possible, preferring the "wisdom of the mob" - they act and live like herd animals, and I am not even sure they are aware of having an individual consciousness unique or separate from that of the herd.  The herd isn't afraid or spooked so everything is fine. The herd thinks living this way is fine, so it is. The herd thinks that sacrificing a member is fine as long as it benefits the herd, so it must be, even if that animal is me.  My own mother (before I threw her out of my life, shortly after buying my own firearms)  said she would rather be brutally raped and murdered than pick up a weapon to defend herself.  She would be happy to die because the herd tells her to pick up a weapon and defend herself would be "wrong"


They HAVE no intellect. They are far more akin to animals than humans. They might have had intellect once, but really I don't think they have it anymore. I think there is a point of no return. I am always on the lookout for Left/right conversions, but they just don't happen.  Every single one that I hear of has a statement of the effect of " I just went along, even though I knew something was wrong. Even though it didn't make sense to me.."  All the conversions I know of are of the "I just wasn't paying close enough attention"  variety. Liberals aren't just "not paying attention"- they can't pay attention. You can't get them to acknowledge you have said anything.  You might as well make animal noises at them, for I am sure that is what our speech sounds like to them.

Offline trapeze

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2013, 01:20:48 PM »
I find it interesting that you quoted Lewis/Narnia. I thought of a different passage from the Narnia series and I will elaborate when I can use my laptop. On my iPhone now.
In a doomsday scenario, hippies will be among the first casualties. So not everything about doomsday will be bad.

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2013, 01:45:28 PM »
Animals...aware or not...

 ::laserkill::
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Offline trapeze

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2013, 02:30:08 PM »
Okay, so on my laptop now...

When I was returning from my weekend trip yesterday I was discussing this idea with mrs. trapeze which is to say that I talked a lot and she listened a lot because she prefers to not get in my way when I am deep into one of these things.

And at one point I brought up the notion of perceived "truth" in comparison to actual truth. That is, how two supposedly intelligent persons can look at the same thing and see things completely at odds with the other. I posited that God is truth and to reject God was to reject truth and everything after that is a slippery slope into insanity.

As an example of this I thought of one of the final scenes from C.S. Lewis' "The Last Battle" which, if you are unfamiliar with the Narnia series, is an allegory of Armageddon and the afterlife that follows. At one point toward the end of the battle, the enemy is pitching the heroes into a stable which was thought to contain certain death in the form of a secret executioner. In fact, as each hero was tossed through the doorway they found themselves in the afterlife, in heaven. If an enemy entered through the door, Tash (the metaphor for Satan) would instantly appear and devour them before vanishing again. This happened every time, good people were spared and evil people were destroyed, with one exception...the dwarves.

The dwarves (before being cast into the stable) had decided to reject everything and fight only for themselves. They attacked the good and bad alike declaring that, "the dwarves are for the dwarves." They rejected the very existence of both Tash (Satan) and Aslan (God/Jesus) and made the decision to follow their own "truth." After they were tossed through the stable door they were unable to experience the new reality inside. All of the heroes were able to see that they were, in fact, not inside a stable at all but in a vast and impossibly beautiful country (heaven). But the dwarves could not see any of it. They were, instead, only able to perceive that they were locked inside a dark, dirty and smelly donkey stable. Aslan appeared and caused a bountiful feast to be set before them and the dwarves were unable to experience it as it was. The dwarves' "truth" was that they were presented instead with such things to eat and drink that might instead be found inside of a stable.

So for the dwarves, their rejection of actual truth resulted in their minds being permanently altered in such a way that they could never experience it ever again.

Quote
"I don't think we want any more Kings-if you are Tirian, which you don't look like him-no more than we want any Aslans. We're going to look after ourselves from now on and touch our caps to nobody, see?"

"That's right," said the other dwarfs. "We're on our own now. No more Aslan, no more Kings, no more silly stories about other worlds. The dwarfs are for the dwarfs."

And the final word on them then became:

Quote
“They have chosen cunning instead of belief. Their prison is only in their minds, yet they are in that prison; and so afraid of being taken in that they cannot be taken out.”

I thought that was a pretty close description of the behavior I see being carried out today by most of those on the left and not a few of those on the right.

It also reminded me of the quote assigned to G.K. Chesterton: "When people stop believing in God, they don't believe in nothing -- they believe in anything."

EDIT: Another interesting quote from "The Last Battle" in light of Texas Democrats chanting, "Hail Satan!" would be this one:

Quote
“People shouldn't call for demons unless they really mean what they say.”
« Last Edit: July 29, 2013, 02:48:56 PM by trapeze »
In a doomsday scenario, hippies will be among the first casualties. So not everything about doomsday will be bad.

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2013, 02:37:07 PM »
Animals...aware or not...

 ::laserkill::

Its important-  if there is a way to turn them back into people then we are morally obligated to pursue it.  We don't call them Zombies entirely in jest. They were people once. Or at least I think they were. I have another friend who suggests that God ran out of souls to put into babies, making them soulless beasts from the beginning ( and demonstrating further why Liberals don't think its a baby till you have a "Strong feeling")