Author Topic: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?  (Read 2379 times)

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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2013, 02:46:26 PM »

Quote
“They have chosen cunning instead of belief. Their prison is only in their minds, yet they are in that prison; and so afraid of being taken in that they cannot be taken out.”

I thought that was a pretty close description of the behavior I see being carried out today by most of those on the left and not a few of those on the right.

Brilliant. I hadn't made that connection, even after you asserted there was another one within the Narnia Books. Yes, they are very much like the Dwarves.  and "cunning" is the right word.  Whatever story the can cunningly pull together to explain their situations, they will believe, and without reservation, without a care if it were true.  Of course, that would assert that these people are beyond the help of God. In reality, I think that was Always C.S. Lewis' vision of "hell"  - not so much a place of torment under the control of Satan, but a place of your own making.  If you deliberately turn  from truth, refuse to look upon it, you can never come to know God. You are not redeemable, either by nature or because God refuses to modify your nature ( or both)  But if God himself can't (or won't) help them, then there seems precious little we can do.

Offline trapeze

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2013, 03:18:16 PM »
My own personal opinion of C.S. Lewis' conception of hell was a place/situation that was permanently separated from God that was brought about by the willful rejection of God/Truth.

But...again, getting back into this in the here and now...

Take abortion as an example. Some (but not all) on the right support the right of the unborn to not be killed under any circumstances. Most on the left are willing to allow or to cause the death/murder of the unborn indiscriminately. There are others who think that there is a middle ground...who believe that abortion is okay under certain circumstances...the rape/incest/life of the "mother" crowd. Where is the truth in this scenario? Everyone is convinced that their belief(s) are the correct ones but logically (the 2+2=4 argument) that cannot be correct.

If you believe that an innocent human life is sacrosanct then you cannot under any circumstances conscience an abortion. That would be truth for me and, I assume, for anyone. I am forced to then conclude that if you believe otherwise, even with "exceptions" then you have made your own truth which isn't truth at all. If I am right and everyone else is wrong then there are a whole lot of people who believe that up is down and black is white...they are not properly in touch with reality and not capable of reasoning properly.

Take any of the other issues that I mentioned...AGW, 9/11 trutherism, etc. and apply the same process. Someone has to be right and everyone else is wrong. Those who are demonstrably wrong in their opinions, their thoughts, their "reality" are then on their way to being pretty much screwed up about just any subject that comes to mind and will only occasionally (broken clock) be correct on an issue.

We know damned good and well that you cannot perpetually spend more than you earn and yet that is the very basis of Social Security. Huh? We have a whole class of people who think that that line of thinking is perfectly acceptable. How can this be? It is accepted in the anti-truth world where real truth has been replaced by made up "truth." If your very thought processes have been corrupted then it all makes sense. For others like myself it is as if the world has gone crazy.

If nothing else, this completely explains the re-election of King Putt.
In a doomsday scenario, hippies will be among the first casualties. So not everything about doomsday will be bad.

Online Pandora

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2013, 03:59:46 PM »

Quote
“They have chosen cunning instead of belief. Their prison is only in their minds, yet they are in that prison; and so afraid of being taken in that they cannot be taken out.”

I thought that was a pretty close description of the behavior I see being carried out today by most of those on the left and not a few of those on the right.

Brilliant. I hadn't made that connection, even after you asserted there was another one within the Narnia Books. Yes, they are very much like the Dwarves.  and "cunning" is the right word.  Whatever story the can cunningly pull together to explain their situations, they will believe, and without reservation, without a care if it were true.  Of course, that would assert that these people are beyond the help of God. In reality, I think that was Always C.S. Lewis' vision of "hell"  - not so much a place of torment under the control of Satan, but a place of your own making.  If you deliberately turn  from truth, refuse to look upon it, you can never come to know God. You are not redeemable, either by nature or because God refuses to modify your nature ( or both)  But if God himself can't (or won't) help them, then there seems precious little we can do.

Does that supercede this:

Quote
... if there is a way to turn them back into people then we are morally obligated to pursue it.

I ask because I'm dealing with a situation, but with a mostly normal adult person, trying to help rectify the perceived dumbass aspect.  One can't *make*, one can only educate by offering the information, no?  It take a "sender" and a "receiver" for this to be effective.  The Left doesn't "receive", as is being discussed here, but there are aspects, principles, that apply as well to this sort of normal, are there not?  I'm of the opinion that one cannot save another from himself; some believe it can be done or at least attempted.  No talking them out of that either, if they are unwilling to "receive".
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Offline trapeze

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2013, 04:07:53 PM »
The blogpost author says that a retraining of the brain can only happen if the individual both repents and repudiates. In other words they have to want to be healed.
In a doomsday scenario, hippies will be among the first casualties. So not everything about doomsday will be bad.

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2013, 04:45:57 PM »
M Everyone is convinced that their belief(s) are the correct ones but logically (the 2+2=4 argument) that cannot be correct.
The correct answer is the Mormons

There is always the possibility as well that NO ONE has it right

If you believe that an innocent human life is sacrosanct then you cannot under any circumstances conscience an abortion. That would be truth for me and, I assume, for anyone. I am forced to then conclude that if you believe otherwise, even with "exceptions" then you have made your own truth which isn't truth at all. If I am right and everyone else is wrong then there are a whole lot of people who believe that up is down and black is white...they are not properly in touch with reality and not capable of reasoning properly.

You begin with a assumption, that one believes innocent human life is sacrosanct.   Lakoff wrote a whole book on instructing Liberals how to argue with Frames- sets of false assumptions - his entire philosophy is based on the idea that Government is like a parent, and if you accept that, then any number of other liberal assertions will, logically follow. Some fundamental assumptions (the American Govt was founded to be the Parent of its children subjects)  can be easily challenged and dis-proven.  Others, like your assertion that all innocent human life is sacrosanct, are taken more upon faith than on proof.  A person who believes in situational exemptions, or simply that a fetus is a blob of cells is rejecting that assumption out of hand - in preference for their own assumptions.  There is just one truth, but humans, of their nature, will perceive it unclearly and are severely limited in their information gathering and processing abilities. There is a reason C.S. Lewis used the term shadowlands- nor are all things laid before us a choice between good and evil. 
 This is fundamentally why we have an amendment protecting the freedom of Religion - the freedom to choose those basic assumptions for ourselves, and according to the dictates of our own conscience. A Baby of course, if its personhood is recognized becomes a complex and special case, because it can claim rights of its own - like the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - But if its mother is also in danger, MUST  she lay down her life for the baby - a baby that will grow up without its mother?  Some may be swayed by the idea than in a choice between the life of a mother and the life of a child ( assuming humans can accurately perceive when such a choice is before them) that choosing the live of the mother will allow MORE children to be born.  Others believe it is unjust ( and perhaps dangerous ) to make a mother bear and care for a child that she did not elect to bring into this world the assumption being that sometimes, it really would be better to to never have been born. "They aren't All Wonderful lives" and Nasty, brutish and short is also an option. The perceived commandments of God,  our own consciences, and practical considerations are all weighed in forming our assumptions.   

The real difference is in how one deals with conflicting information and ideas. Is one open to the idea that their assumptions could be wrong and in adopting a new philosophy if they perceive that to be closer to the truth? Can they explain WHY they think they are right? Can they answer objections to their explanation of how they arrived at their conclusions. Are they, in short, interested in the truth at the potential expense of their own egos? Because that is how we must all approach the Truth and God; in the dark,  with falls and bruises, and arms out stretched. Or do they sit in the dark like the dwarves, seeing only what they want to see, and totally uninterested in the truth, perhaps denying its very existence.

"Hey, hey. Don't be mean. There is no need to be mean, Because, No matter where you go, there you are."-Buckaroo Banzai.

I believe this is the basis for Christ's behavior toward the worst sinners.  Were they willing to see the truth? Were they willing to repent? And fundamentally that is the question I have been  wrestling with.. are liberals able to do this, or are they beyond the reach of all but God?

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2013, 05:03:27 PM »

Does that supercede this:
Quote
Quote
... if there is a way to turn them back into people then we are morally obligated to pursue it.

I ask because I'm dealing with a situation, but with a mostly normal adult person, trying to help rectify the perceived dumbass aspect.  One can't *make*, one can only educate by offering the information, no?  It take a "sender" and a "receiver" for this to be effective.  The Left doesn't "receive", as is being discussed here, but there are aspects, principles, that apply as well to this sort of normal, are there not?  I'm of the opinion that one cannot save another from himself; some believe it can be done or at least attempted.  No talking them out of that either, if they are unwilling to "receive".
This sort of refusal to deal with the facts is part of the human condition- and can affect everyone- so yes, it can apply to "normal." and I believe your assertion that it requires an open receiver to be correct.

I tried it the other way. I have rejected my entire family. I didn't stop loving my Mother, Father or Sister, but I can't have them around either- because they are unrepentant- either by choice as sentient beings and moral agents, or as stupid sheep unable to perceive themselves as individuals who could be held accountable for what they do. Part of me want to make it right- to "save" them.  It would certainly seem to  beyond my power, but emotionally I am having difficulty accepting that, though I am getting closer. Close enough that I am pretty sure of it intellectually anyway. For years I hoping to find some sort of Magic Bullet- a cognitive dissonance so powerful that  they would be forced to think. I even wrote a test but the liberals who took it REFUSED TO ANSWER.  My childhood friends - groomsmen at my wedding,  ejected me from their group blog for positing it there.. Give it to a liberal - tell them they can write their own answers in, where they think the choices I made  are "unfair"  - they will simply become visibly agitated and refuse to answer in any way.  If pressed they become angry.  Press harder and they tell you what an irretrievable jerk you are, how they have always hated you and how they hope you die a slow and painful death in disgrace.  I invented a fairly powerful liberal repellent, but nothing that would force them to reconsider their opinions.  Not even being cut off and despised by their eldest child and being denied access to their grandchildren did that, though I did not know it at the time. There is no way to argue a person out an opinion they never argued themselves into.  The intellectual process is simply non-existent- and that can be widespread or constrained to a narrow area, but there appears to be no way to undo it.  I admit I may  have such areas myself that I am not aware of ( and wouldn't care if I did)  but I hope not, and if I do, I hope they are small and unobtrusive on others.



Offline trapeze

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2013, 08:58:31 AM »
(and, yeah, I am pretty sure someone has brought this guy's story up before on the forum...just looked like it fit here on this thread)

An example of repentance and repudiation. Having been faked out before I will take a wait and see approach but this looks promising.

Problem is, though, that this isn't enough. If there were ten thousand more like this it wouldn't be enough. Fifty thousand wouldn't be enough.

As a country we are just too far gone now.

Full on brake and turning the wheel will not stop us from going over the cliff at this point.

But it's good to see the odd Democrat recognize truth and react honestly from time to time.
In a doomsday scenario, hippies will be among the first casualties. So not everything about doomsday will be bad.

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2013, 09:35:34 AM »

But it's good to see the odd Democrat recognize truth and react honestly from time to time.

Did he recognize the truth?  HE still  acknowledged there needs to be a "safety net" even after admitting that the safety net is exactly what created the moral hazard and the Government plantation he bemoans. Is that just playing politics?

 Did he always feel this way, and just now decided to take action? Was he a closet conservative that woke up, or was he a died in the wool Liberal?  He statement where he says he misses the "drive" blacks used to have suggests that he has been missing it a long time,  and that seems to suggest  the former. Has he just been playing a part till now because that is what was expected of a black man? Especially in politics..

 True Liberals do not admire Hard Work, much less work done with hands, effort and sweat. Its beneath them you see. Even while working at menial tasks  for a living they are sure its a result of fascism, racism,  and oppression- they are sure they were made for better things.

The article really doesn't have enough information to say for sure either way, and a personal talk with him would probably be required to find out.  I just very much doubt that a person who has ever fully accepted that they have the  right to live off the labor of others can ever really return, repent and acknowledge they were wrong.

Offline Libertas

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2013, 11:45:13 AM »
Animals...aware or not...

 ::laserkill::

Its important-  if there is a way to turn them back into people then we are morally obligated to pursue it.  We don't call them Zombies entirely in jest. They were people once. Or at least I think they were. I have another friend who suggests that God ran out of souls to put into babies, making them soulless beasts from the beginning ( and demonstrating further why Liberals don't think its a baby till you have a "Strong feeling")

Define "pursue"?
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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2013, 03:18:09 PM »
Define "pursue"?

AT some point I would really like to find out if cult-intervention techniques will work.  You kidnap them, isolate them and basically attempt re-brainwash them. Liberalism is very much like a cult.   Obviously we can't find out until the rule of law id completely dead, but yes - reprogramming them  (its its possible)  would be better than deporting them or simply driving them into the ocean from a moral point of view.  But then, I really am pretty much past the point of caring what is moral in regards to these people. So if "pursue" means with bats and guns with the intent of mowing them down, then yeah, I can accept that.  After all, they have the same plans for us.



Offline Libertas

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Re: Self Induced Brainwashing: Could This Explain MSNBC, et al?
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2013, 07:07:02 AM »
Define "pursue"?

AT some point I would really like to find out if cult-intervention techniques will work.  You kidnap them, isolate them and basically attempt re-brainwash them. Liberalism is very much like a cult.   Obviously we can't find out until the rule of law id completely dead, but yes - reprogramming them  (its its possible)  would be better than deporting them or simply driving them into the ocean from a moral point of view.  But then, I really am pretty much past the point of caring what is moral in regards to these people. So if "pursue" means with bats and guns with the intent of mowing them down, then yeah, I can accept that.  After all, they have the same plans for us.

I won't dispute any of that.  As a mere curiosity only I would entertain finding out if they can be deprogrammed (if I had the time), but I think this is a cult with an addiction attached to it...I suspect the deprogramming will only work when the subject has hit rock bottom and sincerely desires to be healed.  I think the latter instances are by far the exceptions to the rule.   There are some notable examples, like David Horowitz, whose parents infected him with idealistic commie rot, but I do not think forced deprogramming will be successful.
Irrumabo!  GOP? - Nope. No more. They made their bed, now let them die in it.*
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