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Offline LadyVirginia

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grammar question
« on: September 30, 2013, 03:28:25 PM »
Is it:

None of the injuries is considered serious?

OR

None of the injuries are considered serious?
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Online Pandora

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Re: grammar question
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2013, 03:31:47 PM »
Is 'none' plural or singular?  Can 'not any' be a proper replacement for 'none'?  I believe so, so let's say 'none' is plural and 'are' is correct.

eta:  Then again, 'none' may mean 'not one', in which case, singular, and it's 'is'.

On the third hand, I figure it depends on the context.

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« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 03:40:18 PM by Pandora »
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Offline pisskop

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Re: grammar question
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2013, 03:38:56 PM »
The word 'injuries' is plural, so 'are' is correct.  None modifies injuries.  Pandora is correct to say 'are'.
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Re: grammar question
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2013, 03:42:45 PM »
The word 'injuries' is plural, so 'are' is correct.  None modifies injuries.  Pandora is correct to say 'are'.

True.

But ....

... remove 'of the injuries' and look again:  "None is/are considered serious".
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Re: grammar question
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2013, 03:46:16 PM »
Well, look at 'his injury is not serious' vs. 'his injuries are serious'.  Stick 'none of' in front of that last example.   'Injuries' is a plural noun, so the verb should be plural, too.

http://englishwithjennifer.wordpress.com/2010/01/11/student-stumper-none-is-v-none-are/

Quote
Student Stumper 16: NONE IS v. NONE ARE?

QUESTION: Should I say none is correct or none are correct?


ANSWER: A good number of sources confirm the use of a singular verb after the indefinite pronoun none. However, as I began to search for follow-up exercises on subject-verb agreement for one of my students, I became aware that we English language teachers and materials writers are not united when it comes to explaining the grammar of none. I understood that to help my student, I would have to choose a camp. Camp 1: Those who believe none is always followed by a singular verb. Camp 2: Those who believe none can be used with either a singular or plural verb.

In the end, I decided to set up my own offshoot of Camp 2, and I hope others will join me.

Point 1: In most cases none is followed by a singular verb. No grammar source I’ve found states that it’s incorrect to use a singular verb after none, so when it doubt, choose the singular verb over the plural.

a. Different students offered possible solutions to the math problem, but none was correct.

b. The detective grew frustrated as he listened to the conflicting accounts from witnesses. None of this is making any sense, he thought.

Point 2: Use of none with a plural verb may be considered completely incorrect by some, but others at least acknowledge that it’s a common practice in informal English. Betty Azar writes: “Subjects with none of are considered singular in very formal English, but plural verbs are often used in informal speech writing” (Azar 89)[1]. I would argue that the trend is moving toward acceptance of the plural verb in both oral and written use. I’ve found evidence in formal writing:

a. “26 residential students at the college had to be moved from their accommodation nearby, but none were injured.”  [From “Firemen injured fighting Belfast blaze.” RTE News. Dublin: Nov. 14, 2009.]

b. “None of the wheelchair users injured in incidents associated with improper or no securement were associated with passenger cars, as might be expected.” [From “Wheelchair Users Injuries and Deaths Associated with Motor Vehicle Incidents.” U.S. Department of Transportation, NHTSA Safety Note: September 1997.]

Point 3: Plural pronouns and possessive adjectives seem most appropriate in reference to the subject none when the full subject is none of + plural object, or at least the of + plural object is implied.

a. I was angry. None of my housemates were able to pay their share of the rent last month.

[Let’s say that I have three housemates of mixed genders. Wouldn’t it be laborious to say that none was able to pay his or her share of the rent? And none was able to pay their share lacks agreement between verb and possessive adjective.]

b. The workers were uneasy and confused. They looked at one another for answers. None (of them) knew why they had been summoned for an emergency staff meeting.

 --SNIP--

http://data.grammarbook.com/blog/singular-vs-plural/none-were-vs-none-was/

Quote
“None Were” vs. “None Was”
 
Rule: With words that indicate portions–some, all, none, percent, fraction, part, majority, remainder, and so forth –look at the noun in your of phrase (object of the preposition) to determine whether to use a singular or plural verb. If the object of the preposition is singular, use a singular verb. If the object of the preposition is plural, use a plural verb.

Examples:
 None of the pie was eaten.
 None of the children were hungry.

--SNIP--

I'm sorta maybe half correct.  I think which verb you use really depends on how it sounds out loud with the noun and its prepositional phrasing.

Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: grammar question
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2013, 03:49:35 PM »
Is 'none' plural or singular?  Can 'not any' be a proper replacement for 'none'?  I believe so, so let's say 'none' is plural and 'are' is correct.

Story by reporter on several people hurt during a train & car accident. She said IS.  Seems to me it would be ARE. I thought none would be plural in that case.
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Offline oldcoastie6468

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Re: grammar question
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2013, 03:52:52 PM »
Quote
"None" can be singular or plural, but many people believe it can only be singular.

"None" Is Singular
"None" can mean roughly “not one” and be followed by a singular verb. It also takes a singular verb when followed by a mass noun:

None of the water is polluted.

"None" Is Plural
Sometimes "none" means roughly “not any” or your sentence has a sense of plurality. In such cases, "none" can take a plural verb, and it often sounds more natural.

I talked to the boys, and none of them are coming to the party.

What Should You Do?
You may be chided by the uninformed when you follow "none" with a plural verb, but don’t be afraid to do so if your sentence calls for it.

- See more at: http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/none-or-none-are?page=all#sthash.B66HAxi3.dpuf/quote]
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Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: grammar question
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2013, 03:56:48 PM »
that makes sense to me

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Offline oldcoastie6468

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Re: grammar question
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2013, 04:02:13 PM »
Actually, "of the injuries" is a prepositional phrase, so "injuries" is not the subject of the sentence. "None" is the subject.

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Re: grammar question
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2013, 04:04:59 PM »
The only grammar rule in the English language is that rules are made to be broken.

Offline pisskop

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Re: grammar question
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2013, 04:14:40 PM »
All these rules.  Confuzzling.
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Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: grammar question
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2013, 04:23:10 PM »
It's "are". To test it, just take away the "none" and say the sentence.

A) The injuries is considered serious.
B) The injuries are considered serious.

B is the right answer.
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Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: grammar question
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2013, 04:25:56 PM »
Yes, it's a prepositional phrase.  I teach at home and the first rule they know is to cross out all the prepositional phrases before they move on to finding the subject and verb.

Which is why I asked the question because none are serious and none is serious both had potential to be correct but since it was about lots of injuries none seemed to me to be plural.

I love grammar!

My kids had to learn to diagram sentences.  I loved it.  Do they do that in schools any more?
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Offline oldcoastie6468

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Re: grammar question
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2013, 04:28:14 PM »
Yes, it's a prepositional phrase.  I teach at home and the first rule they know is to cross out all the prepositional phrases before they move on to finding the subject and verb.

Which is why I asked the question because none are serious and none is serious both had potential to be correct but since it was about lots of injuries none seemed to me to be plural.

I love grammar!

My kids had to learn to diagram sentences.  I loved it.  Do they do that in schools any more?

Nope. Actually, I didn't have to do much of either, way back before history books were written.
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Offline Glock32

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Re: grammar question
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2013, 09:42:42 PM »
You could also look at it from the perspective of set theory. "Injuries" is a set of n members, {I} = [I1...In], and if you interpret "None" to be equivalent to "Zero", zero being defined as an even integer, "None of the injuries are" sounds right.

Here's another example: "None of the band is on stage" vs. "None of the band are on stage". This one is interesting because there's cultural context too. The British tend to look at things like "the band" as a plurality (i.e. a set) and would say "are", whereas many Americans look at "the band" as a single entity unto itself (that happens to be composed of multiple people) and would say "is".

Shall we also bring up "the United States are" vs. "the United States is"? Same concept, and it's a telling question to ask because the USA as plurality was the norm for most of our history. The more modern USA as singularity says much about political development (and mostly for the worse).
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Offline Libertas

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Re: grammar question
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2013, 09:44:24 PM »
The squid says arrrrrgh!   ;D
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Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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Re: grammar question
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2013, 09:49:07 PM »
Every time I had a question for her she always told me to ask grampar..... ::rimshot::
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Online Pandora

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Re: grammar question
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2013, 10:29:57 PM »
::groan::

Two thirds of a pun .... a P U .
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Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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Re: grammar question
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2013, 10:36:11 PM »
::groan::

Two thirds of a pun .... a P U .

Groaners are me specialty....

I used to be able to make my wife laugh out loud......but even that has stopped now that we turn out the lights before I undress.
“My mission today is to go forth and tell people about why I follow Christ and also what the Bible teaches, and part of that teaching is that women and men are meant to be together.

“However, I would never treat anyone with disrespect just because they are different from me. We are all created by the Almighty and like Him, I love all of humanity. We would all be better off if we loved God and loved each other.”
Phil Robertson an elder in the church of Christ

Offline Predator Don

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Re: grammar question
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2013, 11:02:27 PM »
How about: ain't no one hurt bad.
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