Author Topic: Officers rip woman's clothes off, leave her naked on cell floor  (Read 5916 times)

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Online IronDioPriest

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Officers rip woman's clothes off, leave her naked on cell floor
« on: October 02, 2013, 11:45:41 AM »
I can't watch the video because its particular format won't play on my iPad. But if it is as described....

Quote
Officers rip woman's clothes off, leave her naked on cell floor (video)

Dana Holmes was arrested in May on a DUI charge to which she pleaded guilty. However, she never could have known what would be in store for her when she arrived at the LaSalle County Illinois jail.

Holmes is alleging that she was illegally strip searched, when officers reacted to her moving her leg during a pat down. The video shows her move her leg slightly when officers quickly react and restrain her, then they throw her to the floor. After securing her, they then carry her into a padded cell, strip off her clothes and leave her lying there naked and alone.

State law in Illinois requires that strip searches only be performed when police have a “reasonable belief” that an individual is concealing a weapon or controlled substance on their body and they must be done by officers of the same sex only where they can’t be watched. Resisting arrest is not grounds for a strip search in Illinois. The video clearly shows three male officers and one female. Holmes is suing for unspecified damages.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

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Offline Libertas

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Re: Officers rip woman's clothes off, leave her naked on cell floor
« Reply #1 on: October 02, 2013, 11:54:39 AM »
Yeah, good luck with that lawsuit...the city will gladly throw up some taxpayer funds to make this go away and then get back to business as usual...

Your better option is to GTFO!
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline Eupher

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Re: Officers rip woman's clothes off, leave her naked on cell floor
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2013, 12:01:53 PM »
Well, at the risk of being politically incorrect, the young lady probably wouldn't have undergone that entire arrest thing had she not been drinking and driving -- assuming, of course, the police were correct in their suspicions.


No person deserves to be treated in that fashion, so I am making NO excuses for the officers who lost their cool somehow and overreacted to what was probably a smart-ass drunk bimbo running her mouth.


But had the bimbo not been drinking and driving, none of that would've happened.


So when they get done dealing with this lawsuit, perhaps they can get down to the real business of this woman's evident DUI arrest.

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Re: Officers rip woman's clothes off, leave her naked on cell floor
« Reply #3 on: October 02, 2013, 12:28:53 PM »
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TOLEDO, OH — A bizarre scene was recorded in Toledo involving an officer aiming his Taser at an entire family, including a boy, as they were forced to lay in the middle of the street. According to witnesses, the aggressive encounter originated when a man questioned the way an officer was handling a license plate citation for his neighbor.  The man who spoke up, and his entire family, were ripped from their vehicle and threatened with a taser.

http://www.policestateusa.com/2013/bizarre-scene-toledo-cop-holds-entire-family-ground-taser/

I guess this wouldn't have happened to this family either, Euph, if they'd not stopped and spoken up.
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Offline Eupher

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Re: Officers rip woman's clothes off, leave her naked on cell floor
« Reply #4 on: October 02, 2013, 12:55:46 PM »
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TOLEDO, OH — A bizarre scene was recorded in Toledo involving an officer aiming his Taser at an entire family, including a boy, as they were forced to lay in the middle of the street. According to witnesses, the aggressive encounter originated when a man questioned the way an officer was handling a license plate citation for his neighbor.  The man who spoke up, and his entire family, were ripped from their vehicle and threatened with a taser.

http://www.policestateusa.com/2013/bizarre-scene-toledo-cop-holds-entire-family-ground-taser/

I guess this wouldn't have happened to this family either, Euph, if they'd not stopped and spoken up.


Strawman.


The drunk woman -- based on what was in the article -- was arrested due to her operating a motor vehicle under the influence of alcohol.


The situation you're citing appears to be a cop being a bully.


Those two situations aren't even remotely similar.
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Re: Officers rip woman's clothes off, leave her naked on cell floor
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2013, 01:21:17 PM »
Quote
TOLEDO, OH — A bizarre scene was recorded in Toledo involving an officer aiming his Taser at an entire family, including a boy, as they were forced to lay in the middle of the street. According to witnesses, the aggressive encounter originated when a man questioned the way an officer was handling a license plate citation for his neighbor.  The man who spoke up, and his entire family, were ripped from their vehicle and threatened with a taser.

http://www.policestateusa.com/2013/bizarre-scene-toledo-cop-holds-entire-family-ground-taser/

I guess this wouldn't have happened to this family either, Euph, if they'd not stopped and spoken up.


Strawman.

The drunk woman -- based on what was in the article -- was arrested due to her operating a motor vehicle under the influence of alcohol.

The situation you're citing appears to be a cop being a bully.

Those two situations aren't even remotely similar.

No, not "strawman".

The woman was suspected of DUI.  There are protocols in place for dealing with that and those cops bullied her above and beyond what one would presume are the protocols, mouthy or not.  That she was drunk, and in custody, it does not follow that a stripping is a rational response to that.

It's exactly the same as the cop bullying that family in the middle of the street -- how much you want to bet the cop was screaming obstruction of justice?  So, if they hadn't stopped (hadn't been driving drunk) none of it would have happened.
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Offline Eupher

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Re: Officers rip woman's clothes off, leave her naked on cell floor
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2013, 01:37:56 PM »
Quote
TOLEDO, OH — A bizarre scene was recorded in Toledo involving an officer aiming his Taser at an entire family, including a boy, as they were forced to lay in the middle of the street. According to witnesses, the aggressive encounter originated when a man questioned the way an officer was handling a license plate citation for his neighbor.  The man who spoke up, and his entire family, were ripped from their vehicle and threatened with a taser.

http://www.policestateusa.com/2013/bizarre-scene-toledo-cop-holds-entire-family-ground-taser/

I guess this wouldn't have happened to this family either, Euph, if they'd not stopped and spoken up.


Strawman.

The drunk woman -- based on what was in the article -- was arrested due to her operating a motor vehicle under the influence of alcohol.

The situation you're citing appears to be a cop being a bully.

Those two situations aren't even remotely similar.

No, not "strawman".

The woman was suspected of DUI.  There are protocols in place for dealing with that and those cops bullied her above and beyond what one would presume are the protocols, mouthy or not.  That she was drunk, and in custody, it does not follow that a stripping is a rational response to that.

It's exactly the same as the cop bullying that family in the middle of the street -- how much you want to bet the cop was screaming obstruction of justice?  So, if they hadn't stopped (hadn't been driving drunk) none of it would have happened.


I just don't see how the two situations are even remotely related and based on the classic definitions of "straw man" or "straw man fallacy", that's exactly what your comparison is. You are trying to compare a drunk woman who is in the police station in the process of being searched with a man and his family who, in the process of sticking their nose into a situation involving a friend who is being cited by most likely an overbearing or bullying cop, they wind up on the ground with a taser pointed at them.


To make matters worse for your straw man argument, the article clearly says the man's wife got lippy with the cop when he got back in the truck after registering his "complaint" with the cop citing the man's friend.


You can scream police brutality all you want, the fact remains the woman would not have been arrested at all had she not been drinking and driving. That is a stone fact.


Another stone fact is had the man not gotten out of his truck and approached a cop in the performance of his duties, registering a "complaint," HE wouldn't have wound up on the ground either.


Now, that said, I guess you missed the part where I said that I didn't and don't condone what the cops did to the drunk woman. Based on purely the soundless video, there's no way the cops could remotely justify that behavior. And while I'm on the subject, even a lippy woman isn't grounds to put that woman and her entire family on the pavement with a taser pointed at them.

But let's look at this in a little more detail.


At one point in the video, the woman made some sort of sudden move while she was being patted down. Her arms were up on the wall and it looked to me like the female officer was in the process of determining whether or not the drunk had a weapon on her. Bingo, the woman winds up on the floor and that's were things went south.


Both instances revealed cops who, at least based on what we're permitted to see in the form of the video and photos, probably overreacted. That isn't right and they should be held accountable.


The premise of my argument is, basically, "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes." Driving drunk is stupid behavior. Going off on a cop in the performance of his duties is also fundamentally stupid. Neither the man nor the woman had any business getting mouthy with the cop.


Had they had a problem with what the cop was doing, they could have registered a complaint with the police department and gone down that road. Instead, they stick their nose where it doesn't belong and complain when those same noses wind up getting intimate with asphalt.
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Re: Officers rip woman's clothes off, leave her naked on cell floor
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2013, 02:00:42 PM »
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You can scream police brutality all you want, the fact remains the woman would not have been arrested at all had she not been drinking and driving. That is a stone fact.

Another stone fact is had the man not gotten out of his truck and approached a cop in the performance of his duties, registering a "complaint," HE wouldn't have wound up on the ground either.

Say "strawman" one more time.

These stone facts are not the point.  The point is breaking the law engenders certain consequences as prescribed by law and what happened to these people is extra-legal punishment administered by cop.  That's the point.  And lippy, last time I looked, isn't illegal nor requiring proning.

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Now, that said, I guess you missed the part where I said that I didn't and don't condone what the cops did to the drunk woman.

No, I didn't miss it.

Just as I haven't missed you making excuses now for the cop proning a family in the street because a woman got "lippy" on the way to doing what the cop wanted -- getting back into their vehicle.

And they weren't sticking their nose in; it was their daughter-in-law the cop had under his "authority".

What you've said here is the equivalent of "attract a cop's attention -- legal or illegal -- reap the consequences".  So, I guess we the citizens just have to mouse around being careful to not, oh, mistakenly run a tire on the yellow line in the street: illegal!;  and make sure any ABC officers lurking around know I'm buying water instead of booze if I'm underage.  Sure, she should have waved the bottles in the air.

No, dude; the cops in this country are f**king out of control and there's no excuse for turd-world behavior by them, even for DUI.
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Re: Officers rip woman's clothes off, leave her naked on cell floor
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2013, 02:47:12 PM »
Now, that said, I guess you missed the part where I said that I didn't and don't condone what the cops did to the drunk woman. Based on purely the soundless video, there's no way the cops could remotely justify that behavior. And while I'm on the subject, even a lippy woman isn't grounds to put that woman and her entire family on the pavement with a taser pointed at them...


...The premise of my argument is, basically, "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes." Driving drunk is stupid behavior. Going off on a cop in the performance of his duties is also fundamentally stupid. Neither the man nor the woman had any business getting mouthy with the cop.

It seems to me like you're trying to straddle both sides of the fence. It's not logical to say cops were out of line in one breath, and she did it to herself in another. She didn't do it to herself. All she did was get drunk and drive and get arrested.

Everyone knows that drunk driving and mouthing off to cops are bad ideas. The point is, there are legally acceptable procedures for the police when they encounter such instances. None of them involve any of the actions we see in either of these two videos.

The citizen isn't subject to extra punishment from cops beyond what the law allows. In each step of an escalating encounter with a lawbreaker, the police have a fixed set of responses that will keep them on the right side of the law.

Cuffs. Frisk. Miranda. Booking for DUI. Phone call. Detention. That's what she had coming. If she resists arrest, a new set of acceptable procedures become available to the cops, and NONE of them legally involved a strip-search, let alone a strip search by males.

Your position is the rough equivalent of saying that if people aren't breaking the law, they should have nothing to fear from government monitoring their communications.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: Officers rip woman's clothes off, leave her naked on cell floor
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2013, 02:52:00 PM »
Cuffs. Frisk. Miranda. Booking for DUI. Phone call. Detention. That's what she had coming. If she resists arrest, a new set of acceptable procedures become available to the cops, and NONE of them legally involved a strip-search, let alone a strip search by males.

ding ding ding

you are correct, IDP

PLus she was not guilty of anything at that point as she had not yet been tried...

she was accused of DUI

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Re: Officers rip woman's clothes off, leave her naked on cell floor
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2013, 02:59:50 PM »
Cuffs. Frisk. Miranda. Booking for DUI. Phone call. Detention. That's what she had coming. If she resists arrest, a new set of acceptable procedures become available to the cops, and NONE of them legally involved a strip-search, let alone a strip search by males.

ding ding ding

you are correct, IDP

PLus she was not guilty of anything at that point as she had not yet been tried...

she was accused of DUI

That's what I said:  "The point is breaking the law engenders certain consequences as prescribed by law and what happened to these people is extra-legal punishment administered by cop."

The rest I did not say.  ::whatgives::
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Re: Officers rip woman's clothes off, leave her naked on cell floor
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2013, 03:00:49 PM »
Cuffs. Frisk. Miranda. Booking for DUI. Phone call. Detention. That's what she had coming. If she resists arrest, a new set of acceptable procedures become available to the cops, and NONE of them legally involved a strip-search, let alone a strip search by males.

ding ding ding

you are correct, IDP

PLus she was not guilty of anything at that point as she had not yet been tried...

she was accused of DUI

Yup. But even assuming she was blind-ass drunk, cursing at the cops, resisting arrest, and spitting at them, they were STILL out of line.

If one says she brought it on herself, or that she could have avoided it by not drinking and driving, then one assumes that the abuse she suffered was within the realm of what she should expect as a consequence.

That's just plain wrong. We are a nation of laws, not a nation of cops. EVEN if one were to give cops the benefit of the doubt, sympathize with their tough job, and understand how someone could lose their self control when confronted with a lawbreaker, the police are STILL required to follow the law in all encounters with citizens.

That is because as you say it is not the cops job to judge guilt or innocence. Only to make an arrest, and let the judicial system take over.

If we stand by while cops increasingly abuse their badges and say  ::whatgives:: "oh well, she shouldn't have______," then it will only get worse.

As Pan said earlier, if this woman can be strip searched against the law for moving her leg in a way the cops don't like, then drifting over the yellow line can potentially engender the same response.

No f**king way.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2013, 03:03:52 PM by IronDioPriest »
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Officers rip woman's clothes off, leave her naked on cell floor
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2013, 03:01:38 PM »
Cuffs. Frisk. Miranda. Booking for DUI. Phone call. Detention. That's what she had coming. If she resists arrest, a new set of acceptable procedures become available to the cops, and NONE of them legally involved a strip-search, let alone a strip search by males.

ding ding ding

you are correct, IDP

PLus she was not guilty of anything at that point as she had not yet been tried...

she was accused of DUI

That's what I said:  "The point is breaking the law engenders certain consequences as prescribed by law and what happened to these people is extra-legal punishment administered by cop."

The rest I did not say.  ::whatgives::

Hey, I was just backin' you up.
 ::hat-tip::
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: Officers rip woman's clothes off, leave her naked on cell floor
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2013, 03:02:25 PM »
Cuffs. Frisk. Miranda. Booking for DUI. Phone call. Detention. That's what she had coming. If she resists arrest, a new set of acceptable procedures become available to the cops, and NONE of them legally involved a strip-search, let alone a strip search by males.

ding ding ding

you are correct, IDP

PLus she was not guilty of anything at that point as she had not yet been tried...

she was accused of DUI

That's what I said:  "The point is breaking the law engenders certain consequences as prescribed by law and what happened to these people is extra-legal punishment administered by cop."

The rest I did not say.  ::whatgives::

yes you did! I was too lazy to quote you too   ;D
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Re: Officers rip woman's clothes off, leave her naked on cell floor
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2013, 03:06:31 PM »
Cuffs. Frisk. Miranda. Booking for DUI. Phone call. Detention. That's what she had coming. If she resists arrest, a new set of acceptable procedures become available to the cops, and NONE of them legally involved a strip-search, let alone a strip search by males.

ding ding ding

you are correct, IDP

PLus she was not guilty of anything at that point as she had not yet been tried...

she was accused of DUI

That's what I said:  "The point is breaking the law engenders certain consequences as prescribed by law and what happened to these people is extra-legal punishment administered by cop."

The rest I did not say.  ::whatgives::

Hey, I was just backin' you up.
 ::hat-tip::

Oh, don't I know it.  And thank you!
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Offline Eupher

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Re: Officers rip woman's clothes off, leave her naked on cell floor
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2013, 08:31:48 PM »
Now, that said, I guess you missed the part where I said that I didn't and don't condone what the cops did to the drunk woman. Based on purely the soundless video, there's no way the cops could remotely justify that behavior. And while I'm on the subject, even a lippy woman isn't grounds to put that woman and her entire family on the pavement with a taser pointed at them...


...The premise of my argument is, basically, "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes." Driving drunk is stupid behavior. Going off on a cop in the performance of his duties is also fundamentally stupid. Neither the man nor the woman had any business getting mouthy with the cop.

It seems to me like you're trying to straddle both sides of the fence. It's not logical to say cops were out of line in one breath, and she did it to herself in another. She didn't do it to herself. All she did was get drunk and drive and get arrested.


I wouldn't know how to straddle a fence. Haven't done that since I was a kid. Last time I checked, getting drunk and driving is a crime.


Quote
Everyone knows that drunk driving and mouthing off to cops are bad ideas. The point is, there are legally acceptable procedures for the police when they encounter such instances. None of them involve any of the actions we see in either of these two videos.

If we all know that, then what's the problem? You didn't hear me making excuses for the cop -- in comparison to what I just heard you say about the drunk woman.

Quote
The citizen isn't subject to extra punishment from cops beyond what the law allows. In each step of an escalating encounter with a lawbreaker, the police have a fixed set of responses that will keep them on the right side of the law.


Agreed. And they (in each case) appeared to have hosed up. Next argument?

Quote
Cuffs. Frisk. Miranda. Booking for DUI. Phone call. Detention. That's what she had coming. If she resists arrest, a new set of acceptable procedures become available to the cops, and NONE of them legally involved a strip-search, let alone a strip search by males.


And it looked to me like they (the female cop, in fact) were frisking her. Maybe they should've cuffed her and they didn't, in which case they were wrong right after the drunk woman was wrong. Lots of wrongs going on here. Woman got drunk and drove. Wrong No. 1. Cops failed to cuff her before frisking. Wrong No. 2. Drunk woman makes a sudden move and finds herself stripped by a bunch of cops. Wrong No. 3. Did I run out of wrongs?

Quote
Your position is the rough equivalent of saying that if people aren't breaking the law, they should have nothing to fear from government monitoring their communications.



Not at all. What I said quite clearly was had the woman not gotten drunk and driven -- a crime last time I checked -- she wouldn't have found herself arrested to begin with.


That single act cascaded into a comedy (the "not funny" kind of comedy) of errors.


Several of you have the mistaken notion that there's a wrong, crooked, dirty cop on every street corner just waiting to beat the hell out of somebody just for the exercise.


I don't march to that drumbeat. For every wrong, crooked, dirty cop there are a couple dozen that are out there beating feet, seeing the absolute dregs of humanity, staying above it all, and being a service to their community.


You guys can live in your persecuted world if you like. I choose not to.


And with that, I'm done in this thread. Have at your bash-a-cop fest. I've seen enough.
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Offline Eupher

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Re: Officers rip woman's clothes off, leave her naked on cell floor
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2013, 08:41:23 PM »
Quote
You can scream police brutality all you want, the fact remains the woman would not have been arrested at all had she not been drinking and driving. That is a stone fact.

Another stone fact is had the man not gotten out of his truck and approached a cop in the performance of his duties, registering a "complaint," HE wouldn't have wound up on the ground either.

Quote
Say "strawman" one more time.


I said I was done in this thread, but I can't let this one go. Is this some kind of threat?






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Re: Officers rip woman's clothes off, leave her naked on cell floor
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2013, 09:04:14 PM »
Several of you have the mistaken notion that there's a wrong, crooked, dirty cop on every street corner just waiting to beat the hell out of somebody just for the exercise.

I don't march to that drumbeat. For every wrong, crooked, dirty cop there are a couple dozen that are out there beating feet, seeing the absolute dregs of humanity, staying above it all, and being a service to their community.

I don't believe anyone here has suggested that there's a dirty cop on every corner waiting to beat the hell out of somebody. I also don't think anyone has suggested there aren't many good cops.

I think what you'll find here is an acute awareness that all around the country, at all levels of law enforcement, there is an escalation of tactics and abuse, and an increase in the instances of such. We're pointing them out when and where they exist. We're gathering the evidence, and commenting on it.

That is just a chronicling of events. You seem to be viewing this chronicle as the board's monolithic view of police in general, and that is an untrue view. Our critique is of abusive cops, not all cops.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

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Re: Officers rip woman's clothes off, leave her naked on cell floor
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2013, 09:05:06 PM »
Quote
You can scream police brutality all you want, the fact remains the woman would not have been arrested at all had she not been drinking and driving. That is a stone fact.

Another stone fact is had the man not gotten out of his truck and approached a cop in the performance of his duties, registering a "complaint," HE wouldn't have wound up on the ground either.

Quote
Say "strawman" one more time.


I said I was done in this thread, but I can't let this one go. Is this some kind of threat?

I'll let Pan speak for herself, but I took it as a comment on your repetition of the phrase.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson