Author Topic: Just commodities  (Read 133168 times)

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charlesoakwood

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #140 on: October 16, 2011, 02:02:33 PM »


14 October 2011, 2:16 p.m.

In the Kitco News Gold Survey, out of 34 participants, 25 responded this week. Of those 25 participants, 21 see prices up, while three see prices down and one sees prices sideways or unchanged. Market participants include bullion dealers, investment banks, futures traders and technical chart analysts.


5238

LCH.Clearnet, gold bullion as eligible collateral, were not the first to accept gold as collateral.

Link

20th Oct 2009, 6:08 am
The CME Group (includes Chicago Mercantile Exchange) announced yesterday that it will now accept Gold as trading collateral for exchange members for all its exchange products. This is the first time a recognised exchange has allowed the commodity as an accepted collateral asset. Under the new ruling the CME will allow each exchange member to lodge up to US$200 million worth of physical Gold as collateral against its open trading positions.


And private businesses:

Off-Market/Private Sales



Offline Libertas

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #141 on: October 16, 2011, 06:38:37 PM »
Why would they want something real as collateral?

/

 ::hysterical::
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

charlesoakwood

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #142 on: October 16, 2011, 07:22:54 PM »

Wouldn't you really rather drive a FIAT?   The cost of collateral is going up.



Real stuff is becoming more valuable every day.


Offline Libertas

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #143 on: October 17, 2011, 07:10:53 AM »
Nothing is going to stop the climb upward, the PTB's of the world are simply incapable of seriously addressing let alone understand the fundamentally destructive nature stifling debt has on economies and currencies.  Manipulations can only postpone judgement day.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

charlesoakwood

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #144 on: October 18, 2011, 05:44:08 PM »

She wrote this specifically for cattle, I like steak. 
I also think can be applied to commodities in general, some more so than others.

"
Generic Cattle Market Comment
Posted by Ann Barnhardt - October 18, AD 2011 11:15 AM MST
Wow. A post about the cattle markets. Amazing. It's like I'm actually doing my job, or something.


Here is the generic conversation that I have many times per day for all of my cattle people:

Yes, we are making new all-time forever and ever in the history of the universe highs in the cattle market. Yes, I think the market will continue to grind higher. However, the end of the world as we know it does make for significant CHOP. Additionally, much of the liquidity has left the markets. The volume is there, but it is all big hedge funds and computer-driven trading schemes. The actual, real PEOPLE are few and far between. Given this, there is going to be hard-core volatility and there will be downside movements within the context of general choppiness. But the inflationary trend will probably continue.

If you would like to put yourself at ease, it would certainly be fine to buy a put or a vertical put spread and get a floor or a partial floor under the market. This will help you sleep at night and allow you to mentally deal with the chop without panic. Fine. No one will ever criticize you for putting a floor under things while the market is sitting at all-time highs.

DO NOT SHORT THE BOARD OUTRIGHT. Shorting the board outright is just about the riskiest thing you could do in an inflationary environment. And if I also may say, the dumbest. Why in the WORLD would you short an inflating market? Why would you convert your valuable, real cash cattle back into U.S. dollars by selling them on the board? As the market grinds higher (which may turn into GALLOPING higher at any time) not only are you no longer hedged against the inflation, but you are also in the worst possible cash flow position of having to take what fiat currency you have and send it to Chicago in the form of margin calls. The cash cattle on the hoof ARE YOUR PROTECTION AGAINST INFLATION. Why would you give that protection up, double-down on the U.S. dollar which is obviously TOAST and will eventually dissolve into worthlessness via inflation, and then call it "risk management"? That's insane.

Risk-limited, only, guys. That means puts or vertical put spreads. Short calls are a marginable short, and thus a no-no. Don't do that. Don't put ANY cap on the top of the market. Leave it WIDE OPEN so that when it runs you are carried right along with it. That is what will save you financially. That ability to ride the wave of inflation and have your wealth hold together is the best possible scenario. DON'T SCREW IT UP.

Rule of thumb: $2.50 premium is the "new normal" in the cattle markets. Start by finding what strike is trading in the $2.50 range and then work from there. The same goes for vertical put spreads. I usually look for a $10 strike spread and then find the highest $10 window that can be bought for $2.50 net. $2.50 in net premium is still less than the initial margin requirement on an outright futures, so you're keeping your cash outlay minimized with zero additional margin call risk. For the average cattleman, this is the only hedge that I can recommend in good conscience. Everything else is uber-risky risk magnification. If you want to play games, go to a casino. Don't send everything you and your family hve built over the decades to Chicago in the form of margin calls because some fool at Cattle-Fax told you that shorting the board is what all of the cool guys do. Cool guys use their brains.
DO NOT SHORT AN INFLATING MARKET. "



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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #145 on: October 18, 2011, 07:04:58 PM »
Yah, okay.  What I got from that?

Blahblahblah .... risk ...... blahblahblah .......DON'T SCREW IT UP ..........
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Offline Libertas

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #146 on: October 18, 2011, 09:04:37 PM »
Options market, gotta be real careful what you do there, can lose your ass in no time flat.  Translation to other commodities is a similar lesson, know what you are doing and why and understand what the risks are.  Managing risk is key.  Overextending yourself in either market direction is never wise.  As a general rule I avoid margin buys and too cute transactions.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

charlesoakwood

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #147 on: October 18, 2011, 10:03:21 PM »
"DO NOT SHORT AN INFLATING MARKET. "

Forget the puts and calls and change the nomenclature to owning
a commodity.  To me it is some of the most concise advice on
how to evaluate your situation.

"The volume is there, but it is all big hedge funds and computer-driven trading schemes. The actual, real PEOPLE are few and far between. Given this, there is going to be hard-core volatility and there will be downside movements within the context of general choppiness. But the inflationary trend will probably continue."

These times we see this day to day and week through week.

"Why in the WORLD would you short [sell what you own in] an inflating market? Why would you convert your valuable, real cash cattle [commodity] back into U.S. dollars by selling them on the board? As the market [commodities]grinds higher (which may turn into GALLOPING higher at any time) not only are you no longer hedged against the inflation [you no longer have your commodity that will increase in value], but you are also in the worst possible cash flow position of having to take what fiat currency you have and send it to Chicago in the form of margin calls.   [are stuck with fiat currency instead of something that will increase in value along with inflation.]

That's what I read.  If I went off the rails I'm all ::ears::


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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #148 on: October 18, 2011, 10:23:44 PM »
"DO NOT SHORT AN INFLATING MARKET. "

Forget the puts and calls and change the nomenclature to owning
a commodity.  To me it is some of the most concise advice on
how to evaluate your situation.

"The volume is there, but it is all big hedge funds and computer-driven trading schemes. The actual, real PEOPLE are few and far between. Given this, there is going to be hard-core volatility and there will be downside movements within the context of general choppiness. But the inflationary trend will probably continue."

These times we see this day to day and week through week.

"Why in the WORLD would you short [sell what you own in] an inflating market? Why would you convert your valuable, real cash cattle [commodity] back into U.S. dollars by selling them on the board? As the market [commodities]grinds higher (which may turn into GALLOPING higher at any time) not only are you no longer hedged against the inflation [you no longer have your commodity that will increase in value], but you are also in the worst possible cash flow position of having to take what fiat currency you have and send it to Chicago in the form of margin calls.   [are stuck with fiat currency instead of something that will increase in value along with inflation.]

That's what I read.  If I went off the rails I'm all ::ears::



Oh hell!  Somebody hurry up and tell Charles if he's got it right because if he does, I actually understand it!

/I need an economic/trader language interpreter.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Offline Libertas

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #149 on: October 19, 2011, 06:36:56 AM »
Charles has it right.  Inflation and debasement is killing the dollar, the murderers are the Fed & Treasury, the vultures are the big traders, the easily fleeced are us little nibblers who dare buy on margin.  Converting an inflation hedge into a declining currency is nuts.  When the downward trend is pronounced and perceived to be not changing direction anytime soon the only smart play is to hold the commodity, at least you are protected from eroding value.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #150 on: October 19, 2011, 09:40:13 AM »
Charles has it right.  Inflation and debasement is killing the dollar, the murderers are the Fed & Treasury, the vultures are the big traders, the easily fleeced are us little nibblers who dare buy on margin.  Converting an inflation hedge into a declining currency is nuts.  When the downward trend is pronounced and perceived to be not changing direction anytime soon the only smart play is to hold the commodity, at least you are protected from eroding value.

Worse comes to worst, ya can always eat it.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Offline Libertas

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #151 on: October 19, 2011, 10:17:10 AM »
Depends.  How long can I keep a side of beef viable?!
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

charlesoakwood

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #152 on: October 19, 2011, 10:26:44 AM »

Put it in a can or buy it already canned.


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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #153 on: October 19, 2011, 10:29:42 AM »
Depends.  How long can I keep a side of beef viable?!

Depends, as you said.  Isn't Prime Rib made by hanging the beef and letting it age (don't know the particulars)?

Then, there's butchering into "cuts" and freezing or canning.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

charlesoakwood

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #154 on: November 29, 2011, 06:28:39 PM »

Offline Libertas

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #155 on: December 14, 2011, 10:04:09 AM »
Last chance to buy physical before bodies start hitting the floor?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/commodity-unwind-continues-global-liquidity-scramble-accelerates

And a Neo-Keynsian with a poor investment advice record slams physical holders...what a douche...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/roubini-asks-%E2%80%98goldbugs%E2%80%99-twitter-%E2%80%9Cwhere-2000%E2%80%9D+

When the collapse comes, I don't know how many I'll be able to trade PM's for goods with (may need other tradables in the short-term) but long-term value will be based on something, and PM will always have value.  What are idiots like this going to do when that stack of cash isn't worth doing anything with except maybe wipe his ass or start a fire?
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

charlesoakwood

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #156 on: December 14, 2011, 11:38:26 AM »

Offline Libertas

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #157 on: December 14, 2011, 11:42:23 AM »
Wearing your ass for a hat must grow comfortable after a while...for people unable to learn from their mistakes...

 ::hysterical::
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

charlesoakwood

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #158 on: December 15, 2011, 11:10:38 PM »
Quote
http://www.thestreet.com/story/11346767/1/gold-prices-fight-to-recover-after-carnage.html

"Was it panic selling?" Asks Jeffrey Wright, senior research analyst at Global Hunter Securities. "No, more program selling that overwhelmed the bids that were in the system." Wright thinks gold's massacre and subsequent volatility is predicated on short term headlines and a lack of resolution out of Europe as well as light volume. "As we get closer to holidays there are less market participants and less on the retail side ... when you have a sharp event and you don't have the breadth of market liquidity it can make these moves sharper because there is no one to participate."

Sounds reasonable, today.


Offline Libertas

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #159 on: December 16, 2011, 07:07:05 AM »
Well, if I was into leveraged buys and hit with steep margin calls, yeah, I'd be a panicky seller too!  And the program selling, the Big Boys run that action, they get their cut, the flock being sufficiently fleeced, they bid their time until the next shearing...problem is, they're running out of sheep...they've shaved most of their vicitims out of the market it appearts to me...hence the light volumes.  Just wait, next year the mother-of-all-QE's will be unleashed and no amount of gaming will be able to restrain the upward march of PM's.  But if the economy, politics...the nation slide sideways...well, when chaos rules it will be hard to predeict what anything would do...get the hell out of everything before that happens!
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.