Author Topic: Just commodities  (Read 132897 times)

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Offline Libertas

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #460 on: April 10, 2013, 07:44:32 AM »
Man, PMs are a good buy right now, especially silver.

On the exploitation front, business as usual...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-10/goldman-buying-gold-selling-treasurys-muppets-whom-it-advises-do-opposite

Hmmm...    ::thinking::

Paper or PMs?  Decisions, decisions!

 ::saywhat::
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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #461 on: April 12, 2013, 11:35:10 AM »
Man, PMs are a good buy right now, especially silver.

On the exploitation front, business as usual...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-04-10/goldman-buying-gold-selling-treasurys-muppets-whom-it-advises-do-opposite

Hmmm...    ::thinking::

Paper or PMs?  Decisions, decisions!

 ::saywhat::

Oh My.. Junk Silver is trading with a Premium of $3.80/oz at APMEX.  Last time I did the cacluation was months ago - it was "high" - almost $0.90

Gold isn't too bad - premium is only up about $5 over what I paid last time ( before the boating accident) 


Offline Libertas

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #462 on: April 12, 2013, 01:04:17 PM »
Wow, that is up, especially when you see the pullback in market price.  Silver is still a solid value right now.  Once the paper chase ends the PTBs will find it a bit more problematic to manipulate markets.  Then again they can revisit the FDR plan and confiscate everything.  Boats still have a purpose.
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charlesoakwood

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #463 on: April 14, 2013, 03:51:24 PM »

Today's Low Gold & Silver Prices Are Not Realistic

Snippet:
Gold has been chopping sideways for 19 months now, and it has worn people out. But basically gold is up. It is not up from 19 months ago when it was nearing $2,000, but it sure is up over the last decade. So I do not let the short-term noise affect me now that I know that we have not reached the point where the price of gold equals the points on the Dow. Right now gold’s value is one-ninth of the Dow, and so I know that it needs to rise by a factor of 18 against stocks before I need to get worried and start watching gold.

charlesoakwood

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #464 on: April 14, 2013, 09:59:58 PM »

... everything is red - JGBs down, Japanese stocks down, US Stocks down, US Treasuries down, Gold and Silver down, Copper down, Oil down, Rubber futures limit down

Offline Libertas

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #465 on: April 15, 2013, 07:22:52 AM »
Why CO, you little mind reader, I just gangered these articles.

Another one popped up later - Gold rout most oversold in 14 years

"End result, whether due to a re-collapsing global economy, margin calls, fears forced Cyprus gold selling will be imposed on all other insolvent European countries, coordinated central bank slams, hedge fund positioning, long unwinds, liquidations, fears about future demand, or whatever the usual selling suspects are, is that gold tumbles an unprecedented 7.8% on 230,000 contracts in one day, and well over 10% in two days, pushing the yellow metal 14 day RSI band to 18, meaning it is now most oversold since 1999. In brief, it is an all out panic, with Goldman still telling clients to sell, i.e., buying every shiny ounce all the way down (not to mention India, where accordingto UBS Friday demand was double the average)."

The hard part is telling where the bottom is, the old joke being you'll know it when you hit it, but we are in the period where the last great buying opportunities might be in play, with the kabuki running out of steam and places to hide and just about every CB in the same boat bailing water into their neighbors lap...and the final battles of the currency wars has yet to commence.  Wait, anybody know if China is hoarding like the Ming Dynasty again?!  Their growth just hit the brakes...could be the global slowdown finally reaching the net exporters, so sad too bad, now they have a billion or so people to keep happy, that'll cut into their PM purchases, unless they want to Bernankie the Yuan to do it.  I'd bet on a double-play, Chi-Com's are as greedy as they are predictable.

Just checked APMEX, if you order at least 20 ounces you can get for 14.27% premium, might seem steep but at these prices you can stack more too.
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Offline Libertas

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #466 on: April 15, 2013, 07:54:19 AM »
The MFM catching the gold action now -

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/business/2013/04/gold-investors-exit-amid-price-collapse/

Snort meter alert activated! 

"The reasons for the plunge are linked to the recent rise in the stock market, the slow, steady improvement of the US economy and the recent strength of the dollar."

 ::hysterical::  Yeah, paper kicks ass!   ::laughonfloor::  Puppetmasters say "Dance, bitches!  Buy me up!"   ::rolllaughing::

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100640665

"Panic"! 

One of the few who should panic is Cyprus, at these prices 75% of their gold will not suffice, the ECB will need it all now.

I love the smell of panic in the morning!
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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #467 on: April 15, 2013, 10:06:24 AM »

One of the few who should panic is Cyprus, at these prices 75% of their gold will not suffice, the ECB will need it all now.

I love the smell of panic in the morning!

Done on purpose - for that reason.

Offline Libertas

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #468 on: April 16, 2013, 12:06:26 PM »
APMEX is running low on silver!

I bought some more, now scheduling my boat trip.

https://www.apmex.com/Category/520/Silver_Rounds_Secondary_Market__New.aspx
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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #469 on: April 16, 2013, 12:13:23 PM »
Apmex Junk silver is now commanding a premium of $6.50/oz.
Other premiums seem to be a little higher than normal, but not ridiculously so.  In 2008 the premium was $0.17.

My only theory as to WHY this is happening is that old US dimes, Nickels and Quarters are in short supply. No one is minting more of them , and there is clearly more demand for them than there ever has been.  The other premiums aren't advancing as quickly because they can be made "new" from current gold and silver production. Old US currency is  easily recognizable as silver and unlikely to be  counterfeits- making it ideal prepping bullion.

Online benb61

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #470 on: April 16, 2013, 12:51:45 PM »
Libertas, CO  & Weisshaupt,
I've never purchased silver or gold and am wanting to get into it, could you guys give a PM for Dummies quick overview of the terminology and some hints on what to do and especially what not to do?
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charlesoakwood

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #471 on: April 16, 2013, 01:17:32 PM »

I'll defer to the pro's.  I like US (first) or other national coins.  There's a local dealer who sells at 6 to 8 %, so when I have an extra buck and it's (silver) low as it is now I pay him a visit.    

Edited
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 01:20:35 PM by Charles Oakwood »

Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #472 on: April 16, 2013, 01:48:50 PM »
Hi Ben,  

Not sure what you are after? Is your goal prepping or "investing" (I put "investing" in quotes because gold is a shiny rock. Its not going to appreciate a lot in value on its own. There is always more coming out of the ground, so people who make money in gold are "speculating" - the rise in Gold price over the last 10 years has more to do with Fiat Management and inflation than it does with the value of the shiny rock.  If you think  Gold may someday be "money" - in that its commonly taken directly in trade as currency, then it has potential to gain "buying power" , otherwise, it much more like sticking money in a mattress, as a hedge against hard times, than it is a growth vehicle.  Many people have done historical ratio comparisons with Oil or other  commodities to decide if its under or over valued at a given moment- the implicit assumption being that a set amount of gold should be able to buy a particular set of goods regardless of what year it is or what fiat prices are attached to them.) Investors take advantage of periodic changes in market conditions to make money. Buy and Hold is not a good strategy if you are looking for real gains. Of course in a mark where treasury bonds are sold at negative real interest holding on to what you put in, is a gain. Gold should track inflation fairly well.

Silver is similar but more prone to market variation. 90% of silver demand is industrial - so even in a collapse, you may see prices fall as businesses are no longer buying it for use in their products. Gold has almost no commercial demand, and is therefore the better inflation-tracker.

There are many different forms of PM "investing" - Mining Stocks, ETF, Certificate accounts ( bank holds your gold physically for you), "stacking" (in possession holding) etc.

The paper market is certain suspect if not outright corrupt.  Many allegations are floating around about naked shorts by large players to manipulate the prices.  (in other words, its not much different than the HFT controlled stock market at this point) - "paper" gold has significant counter-party risk, and really just isn't a good idea at this point ( I don't think)  - Take physical delivery  and then loose it in a boating accident.

 There are also counterfeit bullion products out there- so you need to make sure you buy from a reputable dealer (though last year we found out that won't always protect you-  its entirely possible at this point that fakes being MANUFACTURED by respected mints)  - and probably prefer many items in small quantity by different manufacturers instead of say one large gold brick - thus minimizing the risk that all of your stuff will turn out to be fake.  There are chemical and electrical tests that can be done on bullion to determine is authenticity  - but they test surfaces- you have to file into or cut a bar to be sure. Then you get to reforge it because no one will buy it back in that condition.  Also many bars come in ASSAY packs - blister packs with a certificate - stating the history of the bar. Again, it helps, but its not a guarantee- especially if the manufacturer is corrupt ( or someone has gotten good at counterfeiting their certs and security) .  

The SPOT PRICE , loosely applied, is the going rate for a commodity. However, you will find the actual price varies by the form of the instrument, and the specific product you are after.

Numismatic Bullion has a "collector value"  - something about its shape, history, origin gives it values above its physical content or melt value. Rare coins, bars from a certain historical mine or mint, etc will have Numismatic value and vendors will charge a premium over and above the spot for them.  "Junk" Bullion  has no Numismatic collector value - but you will still  usually be asked to pay a premium over spot - Numismatic coins will vary more in value and have a greater potential upside. . . providing there is the right buyer willing to pay for that particular coin or ingot.

Junk bullion is usually preferred by the prepper.  Old US coins before 1964 are made of coin silver - 90%  pure. They are easily identifiable and come in small values that will be appropriate for trading  for things like eggs and bread. They have no Numismatic value - they are so many of them no one collects them as "rare"

Junk Gold is really jewelry.  In Argentina pure gold bars were sold for "junk gold" prices there being no really adequate way to determine they were pure. As such, a 10-18K gold chain may be a better investment for a prepper. Individual links can also be removed and sold individually allowing smaller purchases to be made.

I personally have used APMEX.com for my purchases which I then lost while fishing. . APMEX is  NOT the cheapest.  They are, however, in most circumstances, reliable. At least I have had no complaints, nor have I really ever heard of any.


 


Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #473 on: April 16, 2013, 02:01:05 PM »
About that paper manipulation

Quote
Gold bullion prices have been subjected to a cleverly orchestrated bear raid in our opinion. Selling of paper Comex contracts on Friday, April 12th, and Monday, April 15th, totaled 1 million contracts, exceeding global annual gold production by 12%.  The attack succeeded when the technical support in the low $1500’s/oz. easily gave way and led to waves of forced selling.  The volume is without precedent and has all the characteristics of a panic liquidation driven by naked short selling....

Emphasis mine.

This price drop may be the result of a loss of faith in the "gold-backed" paper. Apmex is now  running low - and this happened int 2008 too - prices were so low that no one with Physical was selling. At some point the physical market will decouple completely from the paper market.

And why did it happen in 2008? Because this is how Banks (like the ones in Cyprus) have to fund major shortfalls.
A better explanation here

 
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 02:47:30 PM by Weisshaupt »

charlesoakwood

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #474 on: April 16, 2013, 02:26:40 PM »

This: "There are many different forms of PM "investing" - Mining Stocks, ETF, Certificate accounts ( bank holds your gold physically for you), "stacking" (in possession holding) etc." , in Weisshaupt's post brought mutual funds such a Vanguard to mind.  There are PM funds that are a mix of PMs and Miners. They are usually less expensive to purchase and offer a balance of safety that buying just Miners or PMs do not.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 02:30:31 PM by Charles Oakwood »

Offline Libertas

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #475 on: April 16, 2013, 06:43:46 PM »
I obviously favor physical (damn boating accidents!) because you have it, no piece of paper or digital certificate of ownership to monkey with.  APMEX has been very reliable for me, I see the premium as a tolerable price to pay for direct ownership.  Gold is a better long term store of value and as Weisshaupt explained a much better hedge for inflation and debasement of fiat.  I favor silver (and used to won more of it, damn boat!) because I see it as a more reasonable medium of trade in a post-fiat economy.  Both offer long term value.  The beat down of late is similar in other instances - shorting, a lot of margin calls on the fall for those who are leveraged.  These shakeouts occur routinely, the long term prognosis for PMs for me has always been there and I take these dips as buying opportunities.  When you go to an online or in-store seller the other terms you run into other than spot (market) is bid and ask, what people want to pay for and what people want to sell at.  I compare purchase price to spot to see what the current premium is.  I also favor bullion (usually rounds, there are bars and other interesting forms that can command a higher collector premium) over Eagles and government issues as I see private minters being less likely to experience an FDR-like nab, probably all fictitious on my part but it (would have been, damn boat!) my excuse to tell the government attempting such lawlessness to KMA!  I forget the mining outfit but somebody recently suffered some sort of accident, mine collapse, will put a crimp on supply.  Demand by stackers seems strong so demand could push prices up again, odds are they'll float around this lower level before any run-up starts again.  More kabuki economic shocks could help jump-start that too.
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Online benb61

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #476 on: April 16, 2013, 07:56:01 PM »
Thanks for all the info, keep it coming. I'm thinking for me it is more prepping than investing.

The engineer in me has another question.  At the APMEX link earlier they advertise rounds of 1 oz. .999 Fine Silver, the description says 39mm diameter X 3.2mm thick.  So I created a CAD model of this round applied silver as the material and that size and material weighs 1.289 Troy ounces (1.414 standard oz.).  Seems like something is amiss.  Anyone?
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charlesoakwood

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #477 on: April 16, 2013, 08:32:08 PM »

It's not uncommon for a coin to be an alloy.  It will weigh more than an oz but contain an oz of silver.  Krugerand gold is that way, it weighs more than US or Maple Leaf.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 08:40:36 PM by Charles Oakwood »

Online benb61

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #478 on: April 16, 2013, 08:51:15 PM »
then how do they claim .999 pure silver?  Is that a percentage or a mass?
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Offline Weisshaupt

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Re: Just commodities
« Reply #479 on: April 16, 2013, 09:13:46 PM »
Thanks for all the info, keep it coming. I'm thinking for me it is more prepping than investing.

The engineer in me has another question.  At the APMEX link earlier they advertise rounds of 1 oz. .999 Fine Silver, the description says 39mm diameter X 3.2mm thick.  So I created a CAD model of this round applied silver as the material and that size and material weighs 1.289 Troy ounces (1.414 standard oz.).  Seems like something is amiss.  Anyone?

It should be by mass, and while CO is right, many Coins are coin silver - something stamped .999 pure should be exactly  that by mass. - and weigh pretty close to  10.49 gm/ cubic centimeter. . So My only guess is that the dimensions given aren't really that accurate   The design  may add/remove some volume as well making such measurements general and not specific.. . It should weigh one troy oz when you receive it because that what was struck in the first place if the mint was any good.