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Online Weisshaupt

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Ultimate Questions
« on: October 08, 2013, 04:33:36 PM »
While the idea isn't to pick on Pablo, I am going to pick on Pablo a bit.( sorry dude)  mostly because while looking the the Ultimate Questions, I realized that they illustrate some of the fundamental problems I have with Christian Theology in my own life.

If you are going to convince people, particularly non-believers,   the bible is true and worth paying attention to , you can't start with quoting the bible as truth. Its circular, and counter-productive.  This isn't to say any the  Bible isn't truth - but there is no reason to rely upon faith that is it true - some of it is self evidently true and a great many other things can be shown to simply be good ideas, even if God didn't say them. The truth doesn't rely upon anyone or anything other than perhaps God's initial creation of the concept. Showing how the verse is true, vs quote the verse as proof of truth will get you a lot farther with people like me ( but perhaps I am hopeless in this regard) 
But on to the questions:

1) Is there anyone there?  In my opinion, the answer is a self-evident yes.  I have had enough  experiences and seen enough miracles ( creation is miracle enough really) to know that yes, there is someone there
2) Is God Speaking?  As with answer 1, yes he is speaking all of the time and to everyone, and in my  experience not just using the Bible and those who profess that faith.
3) What is God like?  I know him (her, it, them)  only though his works. But the Richard Bach principle seems to apply. Everything that happens seems to be "learning" or "fun" and I am too small to perceive if there is justice, fairness, perfection or ultimate good behind it. 

However the text offers  that God is Sovereign ( that nothing happens outside of his control) and Omnipotent.  If man has free will,  personal responsibility, and the capability of sinning  this cannot be true. If I have no free will, then god created a man he knew would sin, and then punished him for sinning, even though that man had no choice in the matter, for his sinning was both forseen and preordained. Without freewill - personal responsibility and sin are meaningless terms.  The whole pretext of Christ dying for our sins collapses. If free will exists, then God has relinquished such control over men, and while he could be omnipotent and sovereign, in and by his own terms he is most self-evidently NOT completely in charge even if that is by his own choice.  Which leads into the next question

Who Am I? I am nothing and nobody if I have no free will. Otherwise I am as my creator made me. Trying to learn and grow as all life around me tries to do,

What went Wrong?  Another contradiction. If God is both Sovereign, Omnipotent, Just  and perfect nothing could have gone "Wrong" but everything would be as our Just and perfect God ordained it to be.  If something went wrong, and God is perfect, it must be Man who messed it up ( Original sin) - but Man must have sinned with God's Approval, or at least without his interference. There must therefore be some limits on his power, if something went "wrong"

Is SIN serious?  It most self evidently is, as sinning tends to bring you bad consequences in this life long before it brings them to you before God's judgement.

Where do I go from Here?  Again, I only know what to do because all other life does it. You grow. You learn. You have fun. Hopefully all together.  Maybe there is something after. Maybe there isn't. Maybe there is a point. Maybe there isn't.  I believe there is a God, and implicit in that is that there is a point, but that point may only be to enjoy what God has set before us for a time. The best scene in Blade runner is when the replicant is contemplating all of the memories that will be lost.. or perhaps they are persistent. as me, or as a soul, or as something else far more useful to God. .  I am grateful either way. I do not require everlasting life to appreciate what I have been given.

CAN RELIGION HELP? Sure. As can a library. Other people. Your own thoughts and experiences.  Ultimately this is a personal journey, and I seriously doubt God created so many different people, with so many different ways of seeing things and then made  single path for them all to tread on their way to him. Some paths may be easier and more well worn, but God made me a natural bush-whacker. Why would he do that? So I learn worn paths are easier?  Perhaps.

IS THERE AN ANSWER? Probably. I am not convinced we need to know it.  I think Douglas Adams had it right.  42. It really doesn't matter to us.  The text suggests it is so I can have everlasting life in a state of perfection. Really, I don't want that. Life to me is always learning, always growing, always becoming something more than you are. Suffering so you appreciate the times when you are not.  The Christian view of Heaven and Salvation as always ( even as a child) seemed static and dull to me.   

WHY THE CROSS? And here is where it really breaks down for me.  God demanded someone else suffer (himself) for what I have done? How is that "just"? That seems to indicate  at the very least there is some cosmic scale that even God is not at liberty to fiddle with. He is not at liberty to simply change our natures so we are naturally good and obedient to him, nor is he at liberty to forgive without punishing. The rules, even though they are his, and perhaps implicit in God's nature, are the rules.  He cannot change them, and therefore he cannot be sovereign or omnipotent. God is still subject to the Nature of God. Good and Evil subject to the nature of Good and Evil.
 
HOW CAN I BE SAVED? Okay, why must I repent of my Sins of Christ already took responsibility for them and dies on the cross for me? Why is Christ a middle man between me and God?  Why is this the only road upon which repentance for my sins is possible? I cannot doubt that sin is in my nature, for I have sinned. But  what about the millions who never heard of Christ? God just left them out of the loop? Really?  The perfect all-powerful, just  God wrote those people off? If not, then this can't be the only process.

WHICH WAY NOW? The text implies I can't pray to God now, because I have never fully accepted the story of Christ, but I do pray, and I am comforted . God has always sent me what I needed, though I suppose that could be a trick of hindsight. he has even given me what I would consider signs. Likewise I can read the bible and find fellowship with other fellow travelers, and do things in the service of my own conscience.

The whole thing has just never worked for me. SO I ended up a Deist I guess. Does that make me the enemy? Evil?

Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: Ultimate Questions
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2013, 04:44:21 PM »
I don't think faith is found with an answer to every question.

At some point you take the leap...
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Online Weisshaupt

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Re: Ultimate Questions
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2013, 04:59:45 PM »
I don't think faith is found with an answer to every question.

At some point you take the leap...

Sure, but faith in who and what seems to differ - I have faith. Just not the kind a lot of people approve of



Online Pablo de Fleurs

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Re: Ultimate Questions
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2013, 05:20:01 PM »
A lot of tempest in a pot of tea, Weisshaupt. The booklet isn't given to non-believers, but to those who have just (like 10 minutes prior) made a decision for Christ. They will have questions and the pamphlet is a beginning (locating a Bible preaching church in their neighborhood is another).

And you're correct; when my Apologetic hat is on, I don't quote the Bible as a reference to an atheist - precisely because they wouldn't acknowledge it as truth...but I can dispatch their arguments by leveraging their "own leaps of faith" as regards naturalism, evolution & the problem with asserting "nothing" (be it quantum nothing, absolute nothing, scientific nothing or next-to-nothing) as their first cause.

In a galaxy long ago & far away, I suffered some misguided wag named Chicago Gabriel on a board that prefaced this one by a version or 2. Conservatism & belief in Christ should walk hand-in-hand as their core values & fundamental principles are quite similar. He didn't think so...& we argued back & forth as I bitch-smacked him from one end of the forum to another....

...but I really didn't seek re-entry to do it all again. If you have personal problems with Christian theology...deal with it. But you'd be better served focusing your time on what you'll do when you run out of ammo, water & food supplies....and the legacy you're planning to leave to your children.
2 Timothy 1:7
For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but of power & of love and of calm, a well-balanced mind, discipline and self-control.

Online Pandora

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Re: Ultimate Questions
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2013, 06:04:00 PM »
Oh yeah, him.

The pressing question for him regarding babies born alive during an abortion was "who pays"?
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Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: Ultimate Questions
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2013, 07:13:18 PM »
Chicago Gabriel was an atheist. Weisshaupt is clearly not. There is no comparison on that front.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

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Online Pablo de Fleurs

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Re: Ultimate Questions
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2013, 07:20:22 PM »
I don't think faith is found with an answer to every question.

At some point you take the leap...

Sure, but faith in who and what seems to differ - I have faith. Just not the kind a lot of people approve of

O.K. - I'll make you a deal. Here's a great page of Resources, http://apologeticsworkshop.wordpress.com/for-starters/resources/ for seekers of questions. You can filter out the direct Bible links (Bible Gateway, Wisdom of the Bible, You.Version Bible app, etc) & drill down into some of the Apologetic (defense of faith) resources there. If after that, you'd like to discuss things, I'll do my best to answer.

The basic premise is that God has offered us a gift for our salvation in Christ's atoning death on the cross. We have free will to accept or reject that offer, just as we have free will to commit sin. Rejecting Christ's offer means you're saying you'd rather not have that relationship; accepting means you do.

Did you ever have a person in your life you disliked so much that & with whom you never wanted to be around or maintain a relationship? If so, think of Hell as a place for those who don't want that relationship (why would they want to be near God for eternity?)...and Heaven as a place for those who do.
2 Timothy 1:7
For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but of power & of love and of calm, a well-balanced mind, discipline and self-control.

Online Weisshaupt

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Re: Ultimate Questions
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2013, 07:23:45 PM »

In a galaxy long ago & far away, I suffered some misguided wag named Chicago Gabriel on a board that prefaced this one by a version or 2. Conservatism & belief in Christ should walk hand-in-hand as their core values & fundamental principles are quite similar. He didn't think so...& we argued back & forth as I bitch-smacked him from one end of the forum to another....

Of course conservative values and Christianity walk hand in hand, but Jefferson Himself  picked his own Diamonds from the Dunghill when he had a need to - believing the word of god had been corrupted by men over the last 2000 years.  (We couldn't even keep a Republic and its five page Constitution un-corrupted  for 200. )

 I am fully aware that my own principles and morality spring from that source, but try as I Might, I can't swallow that pill whole, and I believe it to be for that reason.  I can only pursue faith when logic has failed me, for I do not think God is capricious or irrational in nature. I understand I may lack the ability to comprehend what God comprehends, nor that I can see what he can see, but I do not believe he acts without reason. I believe there is a logic there, somehow, if you can collect enough of the pieces.  I have faith the pieces fit somehow. But I can't believe that every word of the Bible is truth till I see them fit. 

I am asking genuine questions  - stating simply where the logic fails me, hoping  others will tell me how they have resolved the conundrums. If that involves bitch slapping me from one side of the forum to the other, that's fine, as one way or another  one or both of us will learn something, but I didn't mean to imply you were  obligated to do it by any means. If you choose to do so I will accept it as the gift it is, as I will with anyone else who chooses to weigh in.

Quote
But you'd be better served focusing your time on what you'll do when you run out of ammo, water & food supplies....and the legacy you're planning to leave to your children.

When I run out of ammo, water and food, I suspect my children will be right there with me and be going to the same place I am going, if perhaps a little later.  If it comes to that there won't be a legacy, at least not  here on earth. Christ taught me to Pray to God, but am I really to believe God won't hear my prayers unless I pay in Jesus' name? That God will cast me and my children into eternal hellfire if I refuse to acknowledge his middleman? If that be true, I am not sure this god is worth worshiping. Of course, that is assuming I have the  free will to make that decision, and if I don't then what is the point? There is nothing I can do if God has already decided - knew before the moment of my creation, my fate is to burn in hell for testing the faith of others as I was apparently destined to  do according to God's will.

Online Weisshaupt

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Re: Ultimate Questions
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2013, 07:40:20 PM »

O.K. - I'll make you a deal. Here's a great page of Resources, http://apologeticsworkshop.wordpress.com/for-starters/resources/ for seekers of questions. You can filter out the direct Bible links (Bible Gateway, Wisdom of the Bible, You.Version Bible app, etc) & drill down into some of the Apologetic (defense of faith) resources there. If after that, you'd like to discuss things, I'll do my best to answer.

That is a lot of material and I I browsed through it a bit, but I don't see a simple way to narrow in on arguments that deal with my specific concerns. . Any chance you could narrow it a bit for me (you know, not right this second or anything - maybe just posting to the thread when you run across something relevant  in your own studies you think I ought to look at)  I certainly don't mind reading material rather than trying to force you to write what has already been written elsewhere, but I must confess I am not getting lucky hitting anything I consider terribly useful via this list.

Quote
Did you ever have a person in your life you disliked so much that & with whom you never wanted to be around or maintain a relationship? If so, think of Hell as a place for those who don't want that relationship (why would they want to be near God for eternity?)...and Heaven as a place for those who do.

I can deal with (and have pretty much bought into )  the C.S. Lewis Shadowlands interpretation of Hell and punishment. What I don't understand is why God would turn from me if I don't accept his middle man? I understand that man by his nature will sin, but I don't accept that I must atone for the sins of a man I never met - especially if that man had no free will before he ate of the apple.  If Christ died for my sins (and the sins of all mankind past and present) why will God deny repentance if I accept the gift, but do not worship the giver? If  they are one and the same, why is Worshiping God the Spirit insufficient? Why must I pay homage to the material shell of clay he wore 2000 years ago? These are the questions I struggle with, and why I can't attend Church without substituting the word "God" in my head every time someone says "Jesus" - something that I am sure would offend many if they knew..
 

Online Pablo de Fleurs

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Re: Ultimate Questions
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2013, 08:50:11 PM »
O.K. - as I can, I'll drop a few links and/or "answers" (actually more like lived out processes or responses) to the following:

• What I don't understand is why God would turn from me if I don't accept his middle man?
• I understand that man by his nature will sin, but I don't accept that I must atone for the sins of a man I never met - especially if that man had no free will before he ate of the apple. 
• If Christ died for my sins (and the sins of all mankind past and present) why will God deny repentance if I accept the gift, but do not worship the giver?
• If  they are one and the same, why is Worshiping God the Spirit insufficient? Why must I pay homage to the material shell of clay he wore 2000 years ago?
2 Timothy 1:7
For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but of power & of love and of calm, a well-balanced mind, discipline and self-control.

Online Pablo de Fleurs

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Re: Ultimate Questions
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2013, 09:54:54 AM »
This post was prepared for Weisshaupt - however all are obviously free to read it...as well as add to it.  ;)
--PdF

  • What I don't understand is why God would turn from me if I don't accept his middle man?
    The main answer is because God declares it to be that way. The second is that, being pure holiness, he cannot look upon sinful man. The Old Testament required the blood sacrifice of an animal, performed mostly in temples where there was preparation of mind & body, preparation of the sacrifice (a burnt offering which people made knowing that it covered their sin), then the actual atonement of sin & a restored relationship t God. The New Testament saw that blood sacrifice in Christ, who was sinless & therefore a perfect “bulletin board” on which to pin mankind’s collective sin.
  • I understand that man by his nature will sin, but I don't accept that I must atone for the sins of a man I never met - especially if that man had no free will before he ate of the apple.
    Bad luck, pal. You’re part of the human race…which, despite your own attempts to live a good life…makes you (and, btw, me) part of the problem. And Adam DID have free will. He was given the garden with 1 caveat: not to eat of the tree of knowledge. But he did and the rest is what we’re talking about. In your own strength, you cannot atone for those sins…simply believe on the One who did it for you.
  • If Christ died for my sins (and the sins of all mankind past and present) why will God deny repentance if I accept the gift, but do not worship the giver?
    I see a slight misunderstanding here: God WILL declare you redeemed by accepting the gift of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross. It is not required that you also worship Him. But just as you’d be grateful to a man if he pulled you out of the burning wreckage of your car
    by cutting you free of that which is holding you to the seat…most are grateful to Christ for gong to the cross. Jesus sweated blood in the garden, praying to the Father that the Cross could be avoided (ever see the Mel Gibson’s The Passion – scourging scene makes me wince & weep to this day knowing what my Savior did for me). You might want to drill down into the reality of what was done on your behalf & then examine your level of gratitude over it.
  • If  they are one and the same, why is Worshiping God the Spirit insufficient? Why must I pay homage to the material shell of clay he wore 2000 years ago?
    This goes back to the relationship. Religion isn’t about ritual…it’s about a relationship 7 a pursuing of that relationship. Jesus was as much God in the beginning as He was when He began His earthly ministry; it’s a mistake to assume He first arrived on the scene as a baby in Bethlehem. And “paying homage” would be considered an understatement; love, worship and obey would be more appropriate (for the reasons outlined in Question 3, above). God the Father created, God the Son became your sin & atonement for it and God the Spirit is IN you at the moment of acceptance and can answer you IF you spend a lot of time pursuing a relationship with the “Counselor“.

    And while the concept of the Trinity is hard to absorb, what harder for me to absorb is the pure love God has for us as His creation. I would NOT have gone to the Cross for mankind.

    Free will is essential to one’s faith and acceptance of God. He could have made us automatons, exclaiming “I…love…God!” every 2 hours and constantly smiling. How would you like it if your wife did that (I mean really – gaze into space and proclaim your greatness every few hours with zero friction? What would be the point?). God seeks us but we must accept the gift. And in accepting, most experience & then express gratitude.

Okay…end of sermon. With all this in mind, here are several resources: The first is the New Testament book of John, chapter 3. The second is a new link to the resources page which I added expressly for you, last night, after searching for a succinct way to package this set of answers for you.

If you do your part, this should take a little bit of time to fully understand (not simply intellectually, but spiritually). Then maybe we can go another round.


This was, "coincidentally", this morning's Scripture, read by Max McClean, via You.Version (thank you, Lord, for the "assist")

John 3

John 3 | New American Standard Bible (NASB) | The New Birth

3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these [a]signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born bagain he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus *said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5 Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born [c]again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can these things be?” 10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things? 11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; 15 so that whoever [d]believes will in Him have eternal life.

16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [e]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the [f]only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

John’s Last Testimony
22 After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing. 23 John also was baptizing in Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people were coming and were being baptized— 24 for John had not yet been thrown into prison.

25 Therefore there arose a discussion on the part of John’s disciples with a Jew about purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified, behold, He is baptizing and all are coming to Him.” 27 John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing unless it has been given him from heaven. 28 You yourselves [g]are my witnesses that I said, ‘I am not the [h]Christ,’ but, ‘I have been sent ahead of Him.’ 29 He who has the bride is the bridegroom; but the friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the bridegroom’s voice. So this joy of mine has been made full. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

31 “He who comes from above is above all, he who is of the earth is from the earth and speaks of the earth. He who comes from heaven is above all. 32 What He has seen and heard, of that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony. 33 He who has received His testimony has set his seal to this, that God is true. 34 For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God; for He gives the Spirit without measure. 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not [j]obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Footnotes:
a.   John 3:2 Or attesting miracles
b.   John 3:3 Or from above
c.   John 3:7 Or from above
d.   John 3:15 Or believes in Him will have eternal life
e.   John 3:16 Or unique, only one of His kind
f.   John 3:18 Or unique, only one of His kind
g.   John 3:28 Lit testify for me
h.   John 3:28 I.e. Messiah
i.   John 3:34 Lit because He does not give the Spirit by measure
j.   John 3:36 Or believe

2 Timothy 1:7
For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but of power & of love and of calm, a well-balanced mind, discipline and self-control.

Online Weisshaupt

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Re: Ultimate Questions
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2013, 10:44:02 AM »
Thanks for the answers,and they are genuinely appreciated.. and I am trying to not be overly snarky in challenging them, but I just can't accept them as they are.

The second is that, being pure holiness, he cannot look upon sinful man.


He, who can do anything, cannot look upon a sinful man? How did he have all of these conversations with Satan then?  Just phone calls? Again, the illogicis hanging me up. God may not choose to look upon sinful men, but that he is not capable of it, restricted by some deep magic or something  seems a little far-fetched.

The Old Testament required the blood sacrifice of an animal, performed mostly in temples where there was preparation of mind & body, preparation of the sacrifice (a burnt offering which people made knowing that it covered their sin), then the actual atonement of sin & a restored relationship t God. The New Testament saw that blood sacrifice in Christ, who was sinless & therefore a perfect “bulletin board” on which to pin mankind’s collective sin.[/li][/list]

What use could a being of spirit possibly have for a bloodletting on earth? Again, the only answer is that there is some deep magic that binds God so he must use spirit to cleanse spirit. And while possible, that does imply that there is a complete  lack of benevolence in this system, a system which God must be imposing upon himself if he is all powerful - where one must be killed in another's stead in order to cleanse a soul. Why would a supreme being design such a system, when even an imperfect little lowlife like me can see the harsh injustice in it??

Bad luck, pal. You’re part of the human race…which, despite your own attempts to live a good life…makes you (and, btw, me) part of the problem.

Yep, and those people descended from Slaveowners bear the guilt of their ancestors even though they never owned a slave. Those born of Nazis bear the guilt for the holocaust because their ancestors took part.  What kind of Justice is that? Its Tribal Guilt, and its completely at odds with the entire idea of personal responsibility. If this is true we might as well give up and join a tribe with the liberals, since being an individual doesn't matter to God.  There is no doubt that I have sinned and that sinning is in my nature. I do not, and will not, accept the blame for what Adam did, only for what I have done.
 
And Adam DID have free will. He was given the garden with 1 caveat: not to eat of the tree of knowledge.
Without the gift from the tree of knowledge, how could Adam have really have had free will? He had no knowledge before eating of Good and Evil.  No Knowledge of Sin.  At the very least he could not make an informed choice - his sin was that of a child disobeying his father, not understanding the ramifications of his decision beyond that.  If you tell a 5 year old there are cookies in the cookie jar and then tell him not to eat one and leave him alone , what is the 5 year old going to do? When he eats the cookie, is that the fault of the child or of the Adult who should have known the likely outcome? And in this case, its not an adult, its God himself, with complete foreknowledge of events.
 
  • If Christ died for my sins (and the sins of all mankind past and present) why will God deny repentance if I accept the gift, but do not worship the giver?
Okay, I need to clarify further. Either Jesus is God's Son ( complete and separate) or some portion o God incarnate- a subset if you will. I tend to lean toward the latter interpretation. The theory being here that the deep magic (or whatever)  that requires spirit to cleanse spirit was donated by God himself. ("Son" being the closest human analogy to such a thing)  So God created for himself a human appendage, a bit of mud and clay he could use as a tool to cleanse the souls of men using the deep magic - if Christ was more-  an independent being who could have turned from God's path himself then is make sense that I should be grateful to him, but I have run into a lot of dogma over the years that says otherwise.. as you own answer following  suggests..

Jesus was as much God in the beginning as He was when He began His earthly ministry; it’s a mistake to assume He first arrived on the scene as a baby in Bethlehem.  God the Father created, God the Son became your sin & atonement for it and God the Spirit is IN you at the moment

Why would God be picky about which aspects of him I acknowledge? Other than capriciousness and whim?

I would NOT have gone to the Cross for mankind.

Having not been tested with that task, I am not sure anyone knows what they would or would not have done.

Still digesting the links..


Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: Ultimate Questions
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2013, 11:38:33 AM »
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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Re: Ultimate Questions
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2013, 12:13:08 PM »
Weishaupt,

I think Pablo did a very good job on this. But, each Christian relationship is different, started from a different point along the path of life, and influenced by different experiences. The promises of God remain the same, for all men, of course, as God is no respecter of persons.

The doctrine of original sin, saying that children are born in sin and must atone for Adam's sin, is in my opinion error. It is a fact of scripture that all MEN have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, but to say we are born that way is beyond me.  I think we all agree that WE cannot atone for Adam's sin, anyway. Only Christ could. In fact, I cannot even atone for my own. Only Christ can. That is what makes it such a marvelous gift, in that we could not gain our salvation for ourselves.

The only thing God cannot do, is be different than Himself.  So, you are correct in noting that the way of saying "cannot" is not so say it is impossible for God, but that He WILL NOT accept sin. The penalty for sin is death....but for us the death is paid by Christ. And sinful man cannot look upon the full glory of God and live. This is why God comes to us as Man, or part of the reason. Not magic, but the Who of His being God.

Blood is life. Man has understood this from early on. The Old Testament was a school master to bring us to Christ. To understand the foundational skills needed to know how great a gift was being given, man had to have a deep understanding that death was the penalty for sin and only life can be given to redeem life. There can be no Holiness with the accceptance of evil. God spoke the penalty. The penalty stands. But, the penalty is paid. And we have eternal life, though we sinned. My debt was paid by another.

We do not know the time in the Garden, whether five years or five hundred. But, we do know Adam sinned. The bible makes clear that Eve was FOOLED, but Adam SINNED. In other words, he KNEW what he was doing.

The bible makes clear there is ONLY one God. And it makes clear that He presents himself in at least three different ways. The Father is Him, that the Son is Him, and that the Spirit is Him.  How this is I can only explain as an ant might explain the Universe. It just is. I see the Father as the Pure Judgment of God, the Son as the incarnation of God's work, word, and being, and the Spirit as the conveyor of hope, power, knowledge, and comfort directly to our spirit.  Men have studied and written for millenia on the subject. This is just my 2 minute synopsis of my current understanding. But, it is clear to me that one is not a "lesser god;" as well as it is clear to me that they are not a tribunal arguing and debating amongst themselves. They are of one nature, one purpose, one Being. Just as it is in our nature to sin, though our sins are our Own, it is in God's nature to be perfect.

There is no other name in Heaven or upon earth, whereby we can be saved. There are verses that teach us that it is God's plan for our salvation. What use to complain about the laws of gravity either? This was His plan. Might he have devised another? Sure. Did He promise it to us? No.

I am rather pain averse. And sin-prone. I too doubt i would have gone to the cross willingly, and know I would have been an unfit sacrifice so it doesn't matter.


On the other hand, these are much more pleasant thoughts than my usual concerns about politics and the current plans of Obama and Pinky as they try to take over the world.
 
“My mission today is to go forth and tell people about why I follow Christ and also what the Bible teaches, and part of that teaching is that women and men are meant to be together.

“However, I would never treat anyone with disrespect just because they are different from me. We are all created by the Almighty and like Him, I love all of humanity. We would all be better off if we loved God and loved each other.”
Phil Robertson an elder in the church of Christ

Online Pablo de Fleurs

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Re: Ultimate Questions
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2013, 04:21:03 PM »
Thanks for the answers,and they are genuinely appreciated.. and I am trying to not be overly snarky in challenging them, but I just can't accept them as they are....

O.K. - got it.

You're welcome and, as I wrote earlier, I do not relish a back & forth tug-of-war trying to convince someone. I do think you're over-thinking the situation & that it'd be a pity to swim 90% of the way across the pool...& still drown.

I will take leave of the conversation & hope we can perhaps sharpen each other in non-theological areas. I depart with these lyrics from a current favorite song.

Upon a life I did not live
Upon a death I did not die,
Another's life, another's death
I stake my whole eternity.
2 Timothy 1:7
For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but of power & of love and of calm, a well-balanced mind, discipline and self-control.