Topic: Evidence

[Pablo de Fleurs]

Great Apologetic this morning by RZIM's Canadian director, Andy Bannister:


Evidence
by Andy Bannister

A charge that some people make is that religion in general and Christianity in particular are irrational. It’s ridiculous to believe in God, they say; there’s no evidence that God even exists! Richard Dawkins, in his best-selling book The God Delusion, makes this very claim, saying that faith in God is just like belief in Santa Claus!

But of course, there’s a major problem with comparing faith in God to belief in Santa Claus. I  don’t know anybody who came to believe in Santa Claus in adulthood. Yet I know many Christians—often former atheists—who discovered God as adults. This alone Evidence1should tell you that God and Santa are utterly different. (If they weren’t, one wonders why Richard Dawkins didn’t write “The Santa Delusion.”) Furthermore, thousands upon thousands of great thinkers— now, and throughout history, have believed in God. That alone suggests that belief in God is hardly “irrational.”

But what about the other claim: “You can’t prove God exists!” What might a believing person say to skeptics? Well, I might start by gently pointing out that there are many good arguments that, whilst not proving God exists, certainly suggest God’s existence is extremely likely. There are philosophical arguments, such as the cosmological argument:

    (i)                  Everything that begins to exist had a cause;
    (ii)                The universe began to exist;
    (iii)             Therefore the universe had a cause. Most philosophers would say that’s a powerful  argument.

There are also arguments from design. The universe and the laws of nature look, as one physicist once put it, suspiciously like a put up job. Or we might talk about the purpose that seems to be inherent in life. Most of us intuitively know that life has meaning and purpose. Indeed, a question one might fire back at our atheist friends concerns this very point: how does the atheist avoid nihilism, the view that life is meaningless, pointless, and nothing really matters. The question for the nihilist becomes “Why not suicide”?

The Christian would also want to point out that the deepest things that matter to us as humans all lie beyond the physical and the material: morality and meaning, love and friendship, beauty and truth. All of these don’t fit happily with atheism: “Darwinian mistakes,” Richard Dawkins once called them. That to me is tragic.

But perhaps the most powerful evidence for God is the one the Bible uses most consistently. The Bible doesn’t offer an argument for God, rather it points to God’s involvement in the world. Most significantly, that would be how, in the person of Jesus Christ, the God who created the world took on flesh and stepped into our world to rescue and save it. This is not a distant, remote, theoretical God, but a God who is very much alive. That’s a quite different proposition—and if that God exists, that changes everything. C. S. Lewis put it this way:

    “I believe in Christianity in the same way as I believe that the sun has risen. Not because I see it, but that by it, I see everything else.”

___________________________________________________________________________________________

Andy Bannister is a member of the speaking team at Ravi Zacharias International Ministries in Toronto, Canada.
http://apologeticsworkshop.wordpress.com/2013/12/05/evidence/

[Libertas]

The "Big Bang" just happened, you know?  Something just happened.  It was like, magic!  And then some stuff got together and formed stuff...and billions and billions of years later some amino acids coalesced and oozed forth life...and here we are...

No intelligent design, no Divine intervention...it just happened.

And such types accuse believers of putting too much faith into a giant spaghetti monster in the sky?  Really?!

 

Intellectual laziness is not a becoming trait I find attractive.  The detractors of the Almighty need to come up with something better than this routine!

[Pablo de Fleurs]

The "Big Bang" just happened, you know?  Something just happened.  It was like, magic!  And then some stuff got together and formed stuff...and billions and billions of years later some amino acids coalesced and oozed forth life...and here we are...

No intelligent design, no Divine intervention...it just happened.

And such types accuse believers of putting too much faith into a giant spaghetti monster in the sky?  Really?!

 

Intellectual laziness is not a becoming trait I find attractive.  The detractors of the Almighty need to come up with something better than this routine!

The arguments on both sides end with uncaused first causes. We have God, along with a historically documented & consistently validated (whenever new scrolls are found, they match with what already exists) texts. They have what is termed a "singularity"; a one-off scientific marvel for which explanations undergo an intense, elongated & extremely scientific PFA* process. Their main strategy is to toss more time @ the entire equation; arguing that with enough time...anything's possible: even nothing turning into something ( ).

.

(*Pulled From the Air)

[Weisshaupt]

Great Apologetic this morning by RZIM's Canadian director, Andy Bannister:

Hi Pablo, the following comments are offered only in the spirit of letting you see how an unbelieving ear hears what is said, and not in an effort to start a fight.. but..

 A "great" Apologetic doesn't rely on fallacious argument.  The first part is nothing but an Appeal to Popularity  or Bandwagon fallacy. The argument would be much better without it.

Yes, many smart adults have been Christians or have believed in God.  Many Smart Adults once believed the sun went around the Earth, and many smart adults believe humans are causing global warming, and also cite a "consensus" to suggest they are in the right.  It is not proof that anything "rational" is going on.. and suggest rather the opposite; that some herd mentality is in effect, otherwise one would not resort to such musing in one's defense.

The Christian would also want to point out that the deepest things that matter to us as humans all lie beyond the physical and the material: morality and meaning, love and friendship, beauty and truth. All of these don’t fit happily with atheism: “Darwinian mistakes,” Richard Dawkins once called them. That to me is tragic.

This is the far better argument..because  creation itself is the best (and only) evidence we have of God's existence - be he an active God as the article suggests, or a  "clockmaker" who rarely interacts with his invention. However, I feel the most eloquent expression of this argument I have seen was the  David Wilcox's song, The Big Mistake  which points out the absurdity of creation if it wasn't designed.

Most of us intuitively know that life has meaning and purpose. Indeed, a question one might fire back at our atheist friends concerns this very point: how does the atheist avoid nihilism, the view that life is meaningless, pointless, and nothing really matters. The question for the nihilist becomes “Why not suicide”?....

I don't think knowledge of purpose or morality is  inherent. Look at the liberals who have no moral compass and, I suspect,  no souls.  Does anything matter to a soulless being? Only themselves.  I think any knowledge of these things comes from the culture. Ben Franklin wrote a letter to a Christian-hating  Atheist, that has always stuck with me.

At present I shall only give you my Opinion that tho’ your Reasonings are subtle, and may prevail with some Readers, you will not succeed so as to change the general Sentiments of Mankind on that Subject, and the Consequence of printing this Piece will be a great deal of Odium drawn upon your self, Mischief to you and no Benefit to others. He that spits against the Wind, spits in his own Face. But were you to succeed, do you imagine any Good would be done by it? You yourself may find it easy to live a virtuous Life without the Assistance afforded by Religion; you having a clear Perception of the Advantages of Virtue and the Disadvantages of Vice, and possessing a Strength of Resolution sufficient to enable you to resist common Temptations. But think how great a Proportion of Mankind consists of weak and ignorant Men and Women, and of inexperienc’d and inconsiderate Youth of both Sexes, who have need of the Motives of Religion to restrain them from Vice, to support their Virtue, and retain them in the Practice of it till it becomes habitual, which is the great Point for its Security; And perhaps you are indebted to her originally that is to your Religious Education, for the Habits of Virtue upon which you now justly value yourself.

In other words, what Morality we have probably comes from being immersed in a Christian culture. I think there is ample evidence to suggest that the less openly Christian a nation we are, the more barbaric and immoral the people around us become. Even to a non-believer, the utility of the Christian Religion should be  obvious, but  Most Atheists have such a hostility to Religion they won't and can't  see it. You need to remove that barrier first, and you do that as Franklin did, by getting them to see Religion as a tool - a tool that like a screwdriver, hammer, saw or gun can be turned to useful or to evil purposes based on the men wielding it. It leaves their ego intact, as they are still the superior ubermench who doesn't need that "crutch" , but it opens the door enough that they can look at what is being said ( as if it were some kind of in-secret) and investigate why it is such an "opiate"  and a "crutch" to  those "unwashed masses" without dismissing it out of hand.   

Nor do I feel that is a lie or a false frame or a trick.. for Jesus' teachings  are  a  tool  for approaching God- I see others using them for that purpose even if I haven't figured out how to myself. .  But until the atheist sees those teachings as a tool, and a tool that isn't inherently evil - something that only causes wars and misery, they won't even consider what good they MIGHT BE. first to the lesser others around them, and perhaps ultimately to themselves..

[Pablo de Fleurs]

Thanks for the reply – I don’t take what you have to say as an attack or offered up in mean-spiritedness. The perspective of sincere unbelieving ears (as opposed to vitriolic ones) is useful.

The average atheist states he does not believe in a “god”. But as to the philosophy behind that statement, they are usually unaware or care not to look at. Atheism posits life as a random, meaningless happenstance and life as purposeless because we’re born, we die so what’s the point? Atheists can certainly claim pragmatism as an innate quality of mankind, and to a certain extent learned reasoning – but all must be viewed within the margins of their worldview (meaninglessness) – for the moment they attempt to shoehorn in morality, which one can’t get to via reasoning, they enter into the worldview(s) of Judeo/Christianity.

Whenever I say that atheists, in order to behave morally, must borrow form Christianity, the knee-jerk reaction from them is to hear “atheists cannot be moral” – and a rant ensues. Being immersed in God’s created world, they no longer have the intellectual tools to splice where God’s created order begins to blend into their manufactured set of rules for attempting to live in His world while maintaining human sovereignty. The fact they argue for issues such as abortion and homosexuality on moral grounds exposes their reason-derived misconceptions. Pragmatically, they may argue that it’s better to be alive than dead…but cannot, within the structure of their worldview, explain why some should live (as in the case of euthanasia) or some should die (as in the case of abortion).

As to their assertions that religion causes wars, death & misery – they’d do well to weigh the numbers of atheistic regimes vs. religious ones in terms of total death count. Man, left to his own designs/nature, has slaughtered hundreds of millions more than any religion ever has.

Spiritual metrics will always be difficult to prove. My method, when dealing with real-time, in the flesh human beings in the course of my work or ministry is to point: an alcoholic, a womanizer, a pornographer or even a murderer who encounters Christ within the confines of a private world which they know is inherently wrong becomes changed to a point that defies logical explanation. I like this excerpt from Napoleon Bonaparte as to helping to pint towards and explain that mystery:

Well, then, I will tell you. Alexander, Caesar, Charlemagne, and I myself have founded great empires; but
upon what did these creations of our genius depend? Upon force. Jesus alone founded His empire upon love,
and to this very day millions would die for Him I think I understand something of human nature; and I tell you,
all these were men, and I am a man: none else is like Him; Jesus Christ was more than man. ... I have inspired
multitudes with such an enthusiastic devotion that they would have died for me, .. but to do this it was necessary
that I should be visibly present with the electric influence of my looks, of my words, of my voice. When I saw
men and spoke to them, I lighted up the flame of self-devotion in their hearts. ... Christ alone has succeeded in
so raising the mind of man towards the Unseen, that it becomes insensible to the barriers of time and space.
Across a chasm of eighteen hundred years, Jesus Christ makes a demand which is beyond all others difficult to
satisfy; He asks for that which a philosopher may often seek in vain at the hands of his friends, or a father of his
children, or a bride of her spouse, or a man of his brother. He asks for the human heart; He will have it entirely
to Himself. He demands it unconditionally; and forthwith His demand is granted. Wonderful In defiance of time
and space, the soul of man, with all its powers and faculties, becomes an annexation to the empire of Christ. [/b]All
who sincerely believe in Him, experience that remarkable supernatural love towards Him. This phenomenon is
unaccountable; it is altogether beyond the scope of man’s creative powers. Time, the great destroyer, is powerless
to extinguish this sacred flame; time can neither exhaust its strength nor put a limit to its range. This is it which
strikes me most I have often thought of it. This it is which proves to me quite convincingly the Divinity of Jesus
Christ”

[Libertas]

The "Big Bang" just happened, you know?  Something just happened.  It was like, magic!  And then some stuff got together and formed stuff...and billions and billions of years later some amino acids coalesced and oozed forth life...and here we are...

No intelligent design, no Divine intervention...it just happened.

And such types accuse believers of putting too much faith into a giant spaghetti monster in the sky?  Really?!

 

Intellectual laziness is not a becoming trait I find attractive.  The detractors of the Almighty need to come up with something better than this routine!

The arguments on both sides end with uncaused first causes. We have God, along with a historically documented & consistently validated (whenever new scrolls are found, they match with what already exists) texts. They have what is termed a "singularity"; a one-off scientific marvel for which explanations undergo an intense, elongated & extremely scientific PFA* process. Their main strategy is to toss more time @ the entire equation; arguing that with enough time...anything's possible: even nothing turning into something ( ).

.

(*Pulled From the Air)

Yeah...sure...you meant Air!   

[Libertas]

Weisshaupt - "But until the atheist sees those teachings as a tool, and a tool that isn't inherently evil - something that only causes wars and misery, they won't even consider what good they MIGHT BE. first to the lesser others around them, and perhaps ultimately to themselves."

Well said, and I do see some who are capable of seeing the good religion and Judeo-Christian morals have on large segments of society as a positive thing that benefits the whole.

And that Franklin letter is good, classic Franklin in action...and toward the close the most famous quote from it - "If Men are so wicked as we now see them with Religion what would they be if without it?".

 

[Pablo de Fleurs]

Weisshaupt - "But until the atheist sees those teachings as a tool, and a tool that isn't inherently evil - something that only causes wars and misery, they won't even consider what good they MIGHT BE. first to the lesser others around them, and perhaps ultimately to themselves."

Well said, and I do see some who are capable of seeing the good religion and Judeo-Christian morals have on large segments of society as a positive thing that benefits the whole.

And that Franklin letter is good, classic Franklin in action...and toward the close the most famous quote from it - "If Men are so wicked as we now see them with Religion what would they be if without it?".

 

An updated version of Franklin is the refutation to Richard Dawkins claim that

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
--Richard Dawkins

Note that the esteemed atheist mentioned “in all fiction”. So, if God is fictional, yet all these supposed character flaws abound & are perpetrated by man upon man…WHO is committing them, Richard?

[BigAlSouth]

Whenever I say that atheists, in order to behave morally, must borrow form Christianity, the knee-jerk reaction from them is to hear “atheists cannot be moral” – and a rant ensues.

On my list of books I've not yet written:

Better Living for Atheists by Utilizing Christian Principles.

I'm very serious. If Atheists and non-believers alike applied Christian Principles to their lives, I think they would all live a much more complete and rewarding life, regardless of whether or not they believe their death is the end of their soul.

[IronDioPriest]

Whenever I say that atheists, in order to behave morally, must borrow form Christianity, the knee-jerk reaction from them is to hear “atheists cannot be moral” – and a rant ensues.

On my list of books I've not yet written:

Better Living for Atheists by Utilizing Christian Principles.

I'm very serious. If Atheists and non-believers alike applied Christian Principles to their lives, I think they would all live a much more complete and rewarding life, regardless of whether or not they believe their death is the end of their soul.

You'll have to trick them into reading it.

[BigAlSouth]

I'm kinda thinking pissing them off enough to read it.

[Libertas]

Weisshaupt - "But until the atheist sees those teachings as a tool, and a tool that isn't inherently evil - something that only causes wars and misery, they won't even consider what good they MIGHT BE. first to the lesser others around them, and perhaps ultimately to themselves."

Well said, and I do see some who are capable of seeing the good religion and Judeo-Christian morals have on large segments of society as a positive thing that benefits the whole.

And that Franklin letter is good, classic Franklin in action...and toward the close the most famous quote from it - "If Men are so wicked as we now see them with Religion what would they be if without it?".

 

An updated version of Franklin is the refutation to Richard Dawkins claim that

“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
--Richard Dawkins

Note that the esteemed atheist mentioned “in all fiction”. So, if God is fictional, yet all these supposed character flaws abound & are perpetrated by man upon man…WHO is committing them, Richard?

Richard lives in a vacuum...