Author Topic: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine  (Read 92032 times)

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Online patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1720 on: September 29, 2023, 11:49:26 AM »

I have not watched this yet.
https://youtu.be/kjj__aya4BA
 
The SS in Britain 2001- Director Julian Hendy - Banned UK TV Documentary

or
https://twitter.com/ParrhesiaNous/status/1707081426527559774?s=20
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Online patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1721 on: October 02, 2023, 01:21:52 PM »


A useful link.
https://original.antiwar.com/jeffrey_sachs/2023/09/19/the-real-history-of-the-war-in-ukraine/

The Real History of the War in Ukraine
by Jeffrey D. Sachs Posted on September 20, 2023   

The American people urgently need to know the true history of the war in Ukraine and its current prospects. Unfortunately, the mainstream media – The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, MSNBC, and CNN – have become mere mouthpieces of the government, repeating US President Joe Biden’s lies and hiding history from the public.
...
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1722 on: October 03, 2023, 12:20:58 PM »
Picking on the MFM is easy because they are nefarious...but how come nobody ever asks what enables them to be nefarious?

Same elements that allow the DemoNazis and Cucks to thrive...a lazy and/or stupid populous...

Information is out there identifying a myriad of reasons why we should not be wasting time in Ukraine...but people are too lazy and stupid to seek it out...just like Cucks are too lazy and stupid to pushback on ANY encroachment upon Liberty, Life et al...

So...any argument boiling down to America-bad/Russia-good or America-can't win/Russia can't lose or any variations thereof are DOA.  The lazy and stupid don't react to that, and those insisting they should are themselves being stupid.

The reality just is.

What may work, and which as far as I can tell nobody has tried is something along the lines of...

Should America want to win when we are not told how much it will cost in the end in money and lives?   Why after the great Ukrainian Offensive and hundreds of billions of American money and war materials did the Russian gain a net 200 square miles along the war front?  Why are we wasting time and resources there when our border is being overrun by military aged males from around the globe?  Putin sucks bet lets be honest, we as citizens and a nation are gaining nothing, zip zero nada in supporting this mess that can only get worse and certainly not better than the current status quo...while our arm supplies are being depleted while the Communist Chinese dragon licks its chops and is armed to the teeth!

The KISS principle sans distractions is the way.  Not pointing fingers, not picking personalities not kicking pigs.
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Online patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1723 on: October 03, 2023, 06:31:36 PM »

The reasons for war have not changed much from the Romans to the Germans and Japs in WWII. More land, stuff, tribute, slaves, sex slaves, comfort women.

What were the reasons for Kiev wanting a war? They wanted to drive Russians off land they had been on for hundreds of years and the Russians in the east did not intend to leave and ultimately had the support of Russians in Russia. Kiev also wanted to stop those in the east from teaching their kids in Russian. Also no local  control over anything. Later on arrest priests etc. In short, they wanted to stick it to Russians in the east. That doesn't put food on the table.

The Donbass and even Crimea wanted autonomy after the 2014 coup, not separation. Later on separation.

If Lenin had drawn the map for Ukraine along the Dnieper River there would have been no war as Donbass would have been part of Russia back when.

They could have left the Russians alone. Promised to be neutral. No war. Either the US geniuses thought that the US actions would not result in war OR that US actions would result in war which US/NATO would win. I vote the latter. Those geniuses suck at their day jobs.

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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1724 on: October 04, 2023, 08:44:47 AM »
It's easy to pass on past sins, pretend to be more noble than your foe and not have to apologize for any of it while people in far away palaces passing judgements one way or another like they are free of sin and know everything...

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1725 on: October 04, 2023, 12:27:50 PM »
I'm mostly not talking about good and evil but smart vs stupid.
I am not expert in empires but ....
The Romans ruled by exacting tribute and pretty much leaving the locals alone because they were smart, not good. It worked.

Some Roman governor put down the Boudica revolt in Britain. He was sacked because his policies had incited the revolt. He was recalled not because he was evil but because he did stupid things.

NN Taleb said that Aleppo was a wealthy city on a trade route. The Romans and Ottomans did not mess with local govt.  It took the socialist Baath party to micromanage and drive out the wealth.

The Donbass was reportedly the wealth generating region of Ukraine. Lots of industry. I do not know the detailed history. Commies were big into industrialization. Percent Russian decreased some over time as Ukrainians moved in for the jobs.

Kiev could have sat back and collected taxes from Donbass. Even if a flat income tax or VAT Donbass was a money maker for them. Instead they drink the hyper nationalist NAZI cool aid, rewrite the history books (literally), decide that only ethnic Ukrainians should live within the borders drawn by Lenin, and only Ukrainian spoken.  IMO very stupid moves with predictable bad results.

Then Kiev creates a new sect of the orthodox church in 2019. Now they arrest priests, seize churches, recently seized a convent of some sort. The Romans would not make stupid moves like that. Messing with religion? Some of the worst PR the commies got in Tibet was what they did to Buddhist monks.

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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1726 on: October 04, 2023, 12:44:11 PM »
So?  What good comes in rehashing the past?  Others have other recollections of the past and they are dismissed.  Guess what?  None of that matters, none of that will solve the existing reality...it will only ensure violence continues and escalates.
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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1727 on: October 04, 2023, 02:04:34 PM »

Usually the real reasons for a war make some kind of sense looking back. This Ukr one is psycho. IMO it is in line with published US doctrines to weaken/degrade any major power, especially Russia.

E.g.
Captured ISIS/AQ troops in Syria were unemployed foreign males who got paid and understood that under the Koran, they could take sex slaves or wives. I do not condone that but it makes some sense.

There are some fast paced history docs with good animations of past US coups. I noticed that the real reason for them is never given at the time. Promoting "democracy" sounds better than "United Fruit Company."

The US govt/MSM create fairy tales for all the current wars. Libya. Syria. etc etc etc.

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1728 on: October 05, 2023, 03:16:39 PM »


Maybe Judge Nap was referring to the statement by the trans former Ukr spokesperson?

I used to watch lots of video clips from telegram from all sides. That included social media from soldiers and civilians on the Kiev side of the battle. I heard them say that Russians were subhuman and they were shelling civilians in the Donbass to drive them their sacred land. This went back before the invasion.

In short, NAZIs hated Slavs as subhuman. So the Banderites in the region of current western Ukraine created an alternate history. They were really European, Germanic, not Slavs like the Mongol Russians and were genetically different etc. This is taught to Ukr school children.

Civilians in Mariupol described how the Ukr troops acted towards them. This included shooting civilians etc. Why not? They were not human, after all. Mariupol was an ethnic Russian city.


The first 5 min or so are interesting.
https://youtu.be/-MSGD_V4_fU?t=43
[lowkeysays]https://youtu.be/-MSGD_V4_fU?t=43[/lowkeysays]
 American Neocons and Their Global Community w/Alastair Crooke fmr Brit ambassador
Judge Napolitano

Here is a recent article
https://strategic-culture.su/news/2023/10/02/jumping-the-shark-of-altruism-to-ethnic-war/

Jumping the Shark of Altruism – to Ethnic War
Alastair Crooke
October 2, 2023
© Photo: Public domain
...
Back to the Brzezinski doctrine: Does this Canadian imbroglio remind us that the sub-plot originally conceived by Brzezinski was identity-driven cultural war? Certainly, Ukrainian officials have embraced repeatedly, the aim of cleansing all things Russian from Ukraine. Democracy promotion may have been a pretext, but the quiet part always was to foment violent animosity towards Russians – and to Russia, as a cultural ‘idea’.

This raises an important question: Can a West of shared, cultural like-mindedness ‘imagine itself’ into total cultural war against the values of Russia?
...
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1729 on: October 05, 2023, 04:49:00 PM »
Cleansing is hardly a new idea...though last couple centuries saw a spike...Armenians, sundry "undesirables" in Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia...China (most recently the Uyghurs)...tribes in SE Asia and Africa...Japanese in WWII in several places...Mahdi Death Cultists in Iran crave it, Pali's crave it...
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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1730 on: October 05, 2023, 05:45:12 PM »

This is from the grumpy Russian ex pat, ex USSR military, now in US. What is interesting is the date. Long before the SMO.
update
In short, US destroyed its mfg base. US needs a war in Ukr to drive EU into our arms. RU does not need EU trade or the NS pipeline but EU does. If US sabotages NS it will destroy EU. US lost the conventional arms race and cannot even build anti ship missiles. US elites are idiots. US needs to provoke Russia into war over Ukraine.

https://www.unz.com/article/the-dictatorship-of-numbers/
The Dictatorship of Numbers
In Continuation of a Conversation with Paul Craig Roberts
Andrei Martyanov • April 7, 2021 • 2,800 Words • 290 Comments • Reply
...
America started to lose its only tool which was and even today remains the only valid mean to an end of economic prosperity—manufacturing capacity. A concept which is beyond the grasp of most American economists and political pseudo-scientists most of who today wear Chinese tailored suits, carry iPhones manufactured in China and use laptops and PCs assembled there as well.
...
So, to convince those 447 million EU’s residents that they need America’s protection and weapons, America needs Russia to get into the war in Ukraine and if it will end up with utter destruction, and it will if Russia really decides so, of the Ukrainian Armed Forces and, likely, Ukrainian statehood, so be it.
...
Making Russia obliterate Ukrainian Armed Forces is a perfect way to scare Europeans into abandoning any attempts to economically compete with the United States and deny them access to Russia’s energy.
...
1. Europe is not anymore a crucial trade partner for Russia and mutual trade plummeted in the last few years. ...

2. A much-discussed pipeline of Nord Stream 2 is, actually, not a crucial economic project for Russia anymore. Russia can absorb losses if the project eventually sabotaged by the United States and its European poodles such as Poland, but for Germany, and EU in general, this sabotage will result in catastrophe,...

3.  The United States lost the arms race. America’s weapons acquisition process and military doctrine-mongering cannot be viewed anymore as a normal, that is logical and justified, process....

4.  The United States simply cannot develop modern supersonic anti-shipping missile and the US Navy is forced, incomprehensibly, to buy Norwegian Kongsberg Naval Strike Missile ...

5. Lastly, the intellectual level and the level of awareness of modern American elites is in a precipitous decline,...

The United States already fails to meet a number criteria imperative for the status of superpower, among which a military one is crucial. If some American military “strategists” still exercised a suicidal idea of fighting Russia conventionally in Ukraine in 2014, today in 2021 such an idea is downright mad, because the United States cannot win conventional war in Russia’s vicinity and any US force will be annihilated. This leaves the United States only two options:

1. Indeed, believing its own propaganda, try to unleash mayhem in Ukraine, provoke Russia into a direct military operation and then introduce whatever the force US and NATO will muster into the theater of operations. Any such plan is bound to fail miserably because not only such a force will be annihilated but participating NATO nations will face the possibility of their military installations destroyed by stand-off weapons. ...

2. So, what’s left realistically is to push Ukraine into the suicidal campaign with Russia being designated aggressor before even the first shots are fired. ...Russia has many options, the United States has one—it needs war in Donbass, which, Washington’s thinking goes, will allow to drive Europeans into submission, which allegedly should allow the United States to save her hegemonic status. It will not even if Europe is driven into submission.
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1731 on: October 06, 2023, 08:30:59 AM »
US destroyed its mfg base

Greedy crony capitalists desiring cheap labor abetted by USCOC types started it...UniParty clowns for sale joined it once they saw how much kicked back to them for adopting friendly policy and legislation to it...

And a fat lazy and stupid populace let them get away with it...

And at first it wasn't "bad"...losing manufacturing capacity for mundane things is one thing...losing core manufacturing capacity overseas is criminally negligent from a national security perspective alone...

The rest of that screed is rather tortured logic IMO...

The Euro's were happy to be US vassals...plowing money into socialist BS vs defense that Uncle Sam provided eagerly...

Scarring Euro's?  Yeah....I think some Rus psyche is being projected...  They have demonstrated over the decades very clear and specific episodes of throwing up stops signs to America...track record there obliterates a blanket predisposition to fearfulness...

And is this shows...

https://www.zerohedge.com/commodities/russia-lifts-ban-seaborne-diesel-exports

...item #2 is not entirely true from either perspective and seems to throw pooh on the pre-SMO assertion cited...

#3 & 4 make no sense to me...but whatever, not important...

#5 is low-hanging fruit and hardly an outlier anywhere in this world.

The concluding statements seem full of hubris given historical performances though in general and all other things being equal proximity to ones own ground s/b an advantage at least at the start of any kinetic activity...

All in all I am underwhelmed.  But hey, thank the guy for playing.

Let's see how the show unfolds, shall we?   ::popcorn::
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1732 on: October 09, 2023, 12:02:20 PM »
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/10/russias-counter-offensive-donbas-front-is-accelerating/

Curious timing, I'm sure it is all coincidental and hardly nefarious...

/
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We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1734 on: October 11, 2023, 03:24:43 PM »

I had heard that the Ukr have created some history where they are Europeans and Russians are Asians and genetically distinct.  This has recently crept into EU language.

I recall seeing an ad for a Kiev sperm bank guaranteeing no Russian genes.
Former UK ambassador Crooke goes into this a little. Recently the Ukr trans spokesperson Sarah repeated this. She was suspended for a while then reinstated. She did not make this up by herself. I think Ukr school children are taught this.

35 min in. He talks about the Ukr post war period and Galen. Around 43 min he says Brzezi?ski wrote in his book to harm Russia by exploiting this Ukr belief in superiority over Russians.
https://youtu.be/0IKCo3MVW1o?t=2078
 
Extremist Politics in Israel and Ukraine - Alastair Crooke, Alexander Mercouris and Glenn Diesen
The Duran

https://strategic-culture.su/news/2023/10/09/sustained-peace-with-russia-is-it-possible/
Sustained Peace With Russia? Is It Possible?

Alastair Crooke

October 9, 2023
© Photo: Social media
This Ukrainian identitarian ‘play’ has a crucial part in the story of why sustained peace with Russia is foreclosed.

Few people even know the name ‘Gehlen’, yet Reinhart Gehlen and his SS men not only shaped politically the newborn OSS and CIA, but also, to a significant extent, determined post-war American attitudes toward Russia. A zeitgeist that has remained largely intact to this day, Gehlen – ‘man of light and dark’; both Führer loyalist and traitor – long before Hitler finally fired him. Sometimes it is necessary to look into deep history to identify the roots of contemporary issues.

Gehlen was adept in persuading Hitler how weak were the opposing Russian forces: When General Paulus’s Sixth Army was surrounded by Russian armies which methodically crushed everything inside the cauldron, Gulen reassured that “the enemy troop concentrations remained much too weak for far-reaching operations”. And whilst the Sixth Army of 300,000 German soldiers was being crushed, and Paulus’s last Panzer tanks had been lost, Gehlen sent Hitler old intelligence showing no indication at all of Soviet troop movements. Finally, just as Stalingrad was falling, and Paulus about to surrender, Gulen admitted to Hitler that “the situation of Stalingrad might very well be serious”.

It seems that underestimating Russia has a storied history …

...
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1735 on: October 12, 2023, 08:15:23 AM »
Well, dictatorships often result in underlings telling the dictator what they want to hear...

As for Brzezinski he was Polish living in a town that resides in modern day Ukraine and this part of Eastern Europe saw brutality by both Germans and Russians but more with the latter than the former...which isn't saying he favored the former over the latter...the latter were just worse.  And advancing superiority is hardly novel anywhere...and in this area the idea of the Rus claiming the mantle of King of the Slavs which is only a tad bit megalomaniacal...so why then cannot oppressed people claim their own superiority?  Fair is fair after all and sh*t should flow both ways.  No hypocrites.

And Brzezinski being shaped by Soviet occupation says more to me that the Nazi crap...saying either is better or worse than the other is a smokescreen...who abused the people first is something a lot of people like to forget...that Brzezinski saw opportunity to exploit resentments in Eastern Europe can hardly be seen as shocking or a surprise...it existed because the Soviets created it...if not for Communist revolutionaries we would not be talking about any of this...
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1736 on: October 16, 2023, 10:08:37 AM »
Keep doubling down on stupid...

https://www.reuters.com/world/us-must-be-ready-simultaneous-wars-with-china-russia-report-says-2023-10-12/

...there is only one primary foe - Communist China...followed by Islamist terror, Norks...and minor despotic regimes...

 ::bus::
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1737 on: October 16, 2023, 03:12:37 PM »
After months of an unsuccessful Ukrainian counteroffensive, where Kiev managed to conquer one quarter of one percent of the territory under Russian control, the tables now have turned.

With fierce assaults, non-stop shelling and combat aircraft work, starting on October 9th, Russian forces have been carrying out a sustained attack of their own.

Fighting intensified in multiple sectors of the 1,000-km-long (600-mile) front, but the world’s attention right now is centered in the siege on Avdiivka, ‘the key to Donetsk’.

It’s the seventh straight day of assaults in Russia’s biggest push since last spring, attempting to create a ‘cauldron’ around the Ukrainian defenders in the ‘industrial heartland of Donbas’.

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2023/10/siege-avdiivka-russian-forces-cut-all-supply-reinforcement/

OK, well...air dominance makes air support lethal in supporting ground forces...the Rus should be advancing...
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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1738 on: October 16, 2023, 03:32:25 PM »

I don't follow the short term aspects of the Ukr war. Kiev said their intention was to counter attack and retake land. I believed them. Russians said their intention was to demilitarize the Kiev forces. I believed them also. I recall something similar in the US civil war where one general said he wanted to destroy the other army, not take land.

So Kiev has been on offense for a long time and took heavy casualties compared to RU which was on defense. Now RU finally went on offense again and is taking heavier losses than before.

General mud is about to enter the war again. Maybe real soon or in a couple weeks.
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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1739 on: October 16, 2023, 05:52:14 PM »
Yup, and after the mud freezes the game will pick up pace again...

I would expect that mud phase to be open hunting season for aerial assets...lots of low-mobility targets to go after...
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