Author Topic: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine  (Read 16664 times)

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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #260 on: January 15, 2018, 10:25:05 AM »
It is ironic...Russophiles at ZH like to talk about how the DeepState in the US is aching for war and wanting to start sh*t with innocent Mother Russia...but then why is innocent Mother Russia feeding the war-monger-mania?

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-01-14/who-do-russians-consider-their-greatest-enemies

Wouldn't the smart play be to downplay your antagonism and not offer red meat to the statists in America?

I guess not.  See?  There are no "innocents", the lust of elitists everywhere is for the same thing and for the same reasons...hard not to see this not ending on the really bad end of the scale, isn't it?
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Offline Syzygy

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #261 on: January 15, 2018, 03:38:27 PM »
It is ironic...Russophiles at ZH like to talk about how the DeepState in the US is aching for war and wanting to start sh*t with innocent Mother Russia...but then why is innocent Mother Russia feeding the war-monger-mania?

...

Good question. 

And a lot of the "agitprop" that feeds the war-mongering-mania comes from the Russian sponsored news media, i.e. RT and Sputnik.

I don't recall these being around pre-Putin.  And I don't think 68% of the Russian people thought America was their biggest threat pre-Putin,  either,  with Ukraine coming in second at almost 30%. 

I think the answer to your question will have to include SOMETHING about Putin--a BIG something.  My 2 cents,  anyway.

Online patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #262 on: January 15, 2018, 05:06:37 PM »

How many times has the US MSM bashed Russia in the past year?  10,000 times maybe?
The US moved NATO forces to the Russian border after the Russians pulled back.
The US funneled $5 billion to subvert Ukraine.
US influenced a previous Russian election.
The US outspends Russia 10 to 1 on military.

We think of ourselves as the good guys but Russians have a right to their view of that, with our tanks on their border.  The US has accused Russia of economic warfare for building gas pipelines. I believe the US Senate has gone on the record about that as I recall.

Russia has been much better about causing trouble for the US in Latin America and Cuba.
What does it get them?
We gave Ukraine sniper systems. Why shouldn't Russia give such systems to MX narco gangs?

We should pull out of NATO. I don't care about Russia vs Ukraine.

When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown

Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #263 on: January 15, 2018, 06:24:40 PM »
It is ironic...Russophiles at ZH like to talk about how the DeepState in the US is aching for war and wanting to start sh*t with innocent Mother Russia...but then why is innocent Mother Russia feeding the war-monger-mania?

...

Good question. 

And a lot of the "agitprop" that feeds the war-mongering-mania comes from the Russian sponsored news media, i.e. RT and Sputnik.

I don't recall these being around pre-Putin.  And I don't think 68% of the Russian people thought America was their biggest threat pre-Putin,  either,  with Ukraine coming in second at almost 30%. 

I think the answer to your question will have to include SOMETHING about Putin--a BIG something.  My 2 cents,  anyway.

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!

It helps him with the masses, the strong man there to protect them from evil like nobody else can.  It also helps fund the Russian MIC/Oligarchy/Syndicates which he cannot cut loose to the wind of chance.

It shows the masses there can be just as stupendously moronic as those here or just about anywhere...and shows what a bunch of Putin gravy gulping idiots troll ZeroHedge!
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #264 on: January 15, 2018, 06:36:56 PM »

How many times has the US MSM bashed Russia in the past year?  10,000 times maybe?
The US moved NATO forces to the Russian border after the Russians pulled back.
The US funneled $5 billion to subvert Ukraine.
US influenced a previous Russian election.
The US outspends Russia 10 to 1 on military.

We think of ourselves as the good guys but Russians have a right to their view of that, with our tanks on their border.  The US has accused Russia of economic warfare for building gas pipelines. I believe the US Senate has gone on the record about that as I recall.

Russia has been much better about causing trouble for the US in Latin America and Cuba.
What does it get them?
We gave Ukraine sniper systems. Why shouldn't Russia give such systems to MX narco gangs?

We should pull out of NATO. I don't care about Russia vs Ukraine.

The Russia-Ukraine thing does piss me off, it's well documented, read this thread from the start.  The original impetus was twofold - 1) Outdated (See Soviet) Russian ego that all former satellites are their natural vassals and 2) kind of related to number one, the belief that they can dominate the region as sole-source energy provider (which after all is just another term for hydraulic despotism - control/fear/extort!).  Then they started lying about Ukrainians being the aggressors, lied about blowing the airliner out of the sky when nobody but them could have pulled it off...all on the heels of outright stealing Crimea.  On these factors alone they are thugs unable to cope with their low self esteem issues.  By using Russian logic there is not a damn thing that should stop us from seizing Cuba and the parts of Canada and Mexico we desire!

On the EU/NATO front they have more to legitimately bitch about IMO.  NATO is no longer needed, the candy-ass Euro-Socialists can pay for their own defense and should have been charged with doing so the moment the Soviet Union collapsed.  Screw those losers, never get one damn bit a thanks from them for bailing their ass out of two world wars and keeping the Russian Bear at bay for another 46 years!

I have also stated more than once, we should be allies in combating the Islamo-Fascist threat, but that can only go so far, since the Russians make a ton of money selling tech to batshyt crazies like Syria, Iran and North Korea.  In Syria we should be the hell out of there too, let Russians take that cesspool, getting out of NATO would finally cut us loose from Erdogan's batshyt crazy Turks too!
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Offline Syzygy

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #265 on: January 15, 2018, 09:41:23 PM »
...
On the EU/NATO front they have more to legitimately bitch about IMO.  NATO is no longer needed, the candy-ass Euro-Socialists can pay for their own defense and should have been charged with doing so the moment the Soviet Union collapsed. 
...

When the Soviet Union collapsed,  it being the reason for a NATO in the first place--a 3 Musketeers,  all for one and one for all defense against Soviet invasion--NATO's raison d'etre collapsed with it.  Instead of disbanding or at least downsizing,  they went on a membership drive,   thus proving once again a Reagan truism:  the closest thing to eternal life here on Earth is a government program.

I think that with the modern day Asian threats--China and NK--a new and improved SEATO treaty would make more sense today,  economically (cheaper) AND strategically.   But when was the last time our government did anything that made good sense? 


Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #266 on: January 16, 2018, 07:55:31 AM »
...
On the EU/NATO front they have more to legitimately bitch about IMO.  NATO is no longer needed, the candy-ass Euro-Socialists can pay for their own defense and should have been charged with doing so the moment the Soviet Union collapsed. 
...

When the Soviet Union collapsed,  it being the reason for a NATO in the first place--a 3 Musketeers,  all for one and one for all defense against Soviet invasion--NATO's raison d'etre collapsed with it.  Instead of disbanding or at least downsizing,  they went on a membership drive,   thus proving once again a Reagan truism:  the closest thing to eternal life here on Earth is a government program.

I think that with the modern day Asian threats--China and NK--a new and improved SEATO treaty would make more sense today,  economically (cheaper) AND strategically.   But when was the last time our government did anything that made good sense?

I agree.  The Pacific Rim is where we should be focused, let the Europeans worry about Europe.  Oh, and on record numerous times saying we should have wooed India not Pakistan...would have been better that way...and it would have thrown a wrench in the String of Pearls and BRICS!

Pan started this thread - http://itsaboutliberty.com/index.php/topic,3910.180.html

We have had lively discussions on it, primarily centered on the Chi-Com "String of Pearls" network.

Other threads related to the String of Pearls and related area interest include:

BRICS -

http://itsaboutliberty.com/index.php/topic,991.msg10575.html#msg10575

Pakistan -

http://itsaboutliberty.com/index.php/topic,15772.msg169597.html#msg169597

Philippines -

http://itsaboutliberty.com/index.php/topic,14240.msg158066.html#msg158066

http://itsaboutliberty.com/index.php/topic,14380.msg155598.html#msg155598

Vietnam -

http://itsaboutliberty.com/index.php/topic,14244.msg154262.html#msg154262

http://itsaboutliberty.com/index.php/topic,1854.msg21483.html#msg21483

India -

http://itsaboutliberty.com/index.php/topic,6518.msg73303.html#msg73303

http://itsaboutliberty.com/index.php/topic,12311.msg137548.html#msg137548

Norks -

http://itsaboutliberty.com/index.php/topic,15137.msg169082.html#msg169082

And because they are directly related to global issues -

http://itsaboutliberty.com/index.php/topic,4585.msg168199.html#msg168199

http://itsaboutliberty.com/index.php/topic,913.msg147158.html#msg147158

Now, get in there and post!   ::thumbsup::
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #267 on: November 26, 2018, 01:42:08 PM »
Russia being a bully again...

https://www.voanews.com/a/ukraine-demands-russia-release-ukrainian-sailors-ships/4673893.html

Supposed to be free passage in the Kerch Strait, and what threat two warships and a tug present to the mighty Rus Fleet let alone the mighty Rus Empire I don't know...and what "provocations" the Rus imagine were not spelled out, merely an allegation of no notification of passage that Ukraine denies...but that alone is insufficient to seize ships and crew.  Normally I wouldn't side with a Euro-ponce like Stoltenberg, but in this case the Russian claim looks weak.

Might makes right, old as Adam, eh?
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #268 on: November 27, 2018, 07:52:44 AM »
Well, shucks...should have known!

Gazprom.  The Invincible Rus Empire of Vlad the Conquerer threatened by the merest Ukrainian vessel exercising the right of passage so near a vital source of Imperial Life-blood!



https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-11-26/russian-south-stream-20-comes-out-shadows

Yeah...still waiting on the nature of that threat...

 foottapping
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #269 on: November 28, 2018, 07:53:56 AM »
Oh jeez, Brits want to sail a destroyer in Black Sea...Russia deploys missiles in Crimea...

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-11-28/russia-deploys-s-400-missiles-crimea-military-showdown-ukraine

Crimea river!   ::mooning::

But hey, Chi-Com's hopping mad over being told to play fair...threaten ALL OUT WAR.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-11-27/china-ambassador-warns-dire-consequences-if-no-deal-hints-all-out-war

Cui gotta a purdy mouth...how about put up or shut up?

Okie Dokie boys...we playing WWIII or not?

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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #270 on: December 07, 2018, 07:47:04 AM »
ZH cannot cite RT constantly...so their Russophile proxies come into play...

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-12-06/why-russia-wont-invade-ukraine-baltic-statelets-or-anybody-else

Kind of a nice fairy tale...Russia is good, Russia is wise, there is no place like Russia...will not invade neighbors, just wait for them to implode...and even then they will not take advantage of them!

In Alfred E. "What, me worry?" Putin we trust.
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Online patentlymn

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Russia and Ukraine incident
« Reply #271 on: December 07, 2018, 01:38:32 PM »
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 02:57:08 PM by patentlymn »
When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown

Offline Libertas

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Re: Russia and Ukraine incident
« Reply #272 on: December 07, 2018, 02:44:59 PM »
It speaks to the larger Russian-Ukrainian recent history and parallels older generation memory of the dark days behind the curtain of Soviet Russian oppression.  And forget not that Putin is a survivor of Soviet KGB (rose to Lt.Col. in the NKVD), so no stranger to intrigue, prejudice and exploitation is he.   Flash-forward to the invasion into Eastern Ukraine and the annexation of Crimea.  Now, Ukraine is effectively blocked at the Kerch...anything coming from Ukraine in the east on the Sea of Azov or west on the Black Sea is subject to the whimsy of Mother Russia.  I find it hilarious anybody who has pretensions of intelligence buying the poor Russia meme when it is not they who have been invaded and not they who have had territory stolen...or they who must obey their oppressor when traveling east-west or west-east in international waters.  It is also not Ukraine who has fossil fuel pipelines to extort Europe with.

If anybody has a valid gripe and an excuse to seize a ship in port is more likely valid by Ukraine than Russia...but, tit for tat in response to Kerch abuses?  Yeah, why the frick not?  Just like a diplomatic row and ousting consular staff.  All is fair...

Hey?  I've been documenting the crap out of this mess from the start, here - http://itsaboutliberty.com/index.php/topic,9929.260.html

Poor misunderstood oft victimized Russian peoples!

 ::ohno::

I feel not their pain.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 02:48:24 PM by Libertas »
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Online patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #273 on: December 07, 2018, 02:57:46 PM »
I came across this site that had more details on the Ukraine incident.
It seems factual to me. The guest is biased and says so.
He gives the history of that immediate region. I never heard these details on the MSM. Ukranian skips passed daily under the bridge without problem. Ukraine had decided that any ships visiting Crimea first then visiting a Ukranian port were subject to seizure and had seized Russian ship and sailors, mostly small boats.
Russia is holding the Ukranian sailors for an exchange.
etc.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdzEbltuiGg

Another video, different guest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlvvIuKv7AI

also
The Sea of Azov is the shallowest sea in the world, with the depth varying between 0.9 and 14 metres (2 ft 11 in and 45 ft 11 in).[1][4][5][6][7]
When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown

Online Pandora

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Re: Russia and Ukraine incident
« Reply #274 on: December 07, 2018, 04:33:31 PM »
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

"Let us assume for the moment everything you say about me is true. That just makes your problem bigger, doesn't it?"

Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #275 on: December 10, 2018, 08:51:43 AM »
 ::hat-tip::
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #276 on: December 11, 2018, 08:09:45 AM »
Russian tanks massing...more of a continued build up going on a while now.

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-12-09/new-satellite-imagery-shows-hundreds-russian-battle-tanks-amassing-ukraine-border

Bullish for peace and harmony, eh?

A third invasion in the works...what could go wrong?
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Online Pandora

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #277 on: December 11, 2018, 09:54:43 AM »
Not our business.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #278 on: December 11, 2018, 11:34:21 AM »
There is a lot that falls into that category...yet foolish people persist in being foolish, or willing stooges of the DeepState and crony-capitalist cabal...

If not entangled in Europe or its love-hate relationship with its neighbors (that hasn't changed much...has it, despite their shared enlightened socialist sentiments!) maybe our relationship with others as well as their own with each other would be different, funny how old animosities persists, eh?   The collapse of the old Soviet Empire basically fell into the lap of Clinton & Dem's who had little to do with its demise and whom still to this day probably mourn its fall.  What should have been consolidated into a conservative win was corrupted by uninterested politicians looking to reap the supposed guns-into-butter windfall that would ensure domestic obedience and continued rule.  Then Prince Vlad had to create ways to stay in power like an Emperor and devise economic means to tie neighbors into serfdom (fuel!) and reconstitute the Russian Empire to its former girth...and this time with Ukraine the target the Dems, the DeepState, the cronys, the EU et al get panties in a bunch?  Not saying without reason but for the wrong reason.  Ironic all the role reversals and lack of consistency or conscience.  And now...the dark powers have Trump (temporarily?) in a box with relations with Russia so that no cooperation between the two can exist...not on Islamic terrorism, not on economic issues...nothing...only conflict can be allowed.  And the dumb Russians don't help by invading neighbors repeatedly.  But that action seems to be encouraged than discouraged...so why don't we act the same?  Time to seize Cuba, we failed to claim all of it in the Spanish-American War, Gitmo not enough...the whole damn island should be ours!  Monroe Doctrine, Putin Doctrine...don't care what it is called...same rules should apply to all or to none!  Canada and Mexico better keep in line, look out!
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Online John Florida

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #279 on: December 11, 2018, 02:26:31 PM »
  Poland won't let them fall into Ruski hands and if Poland joins were in for it.  They don't trust Russians any closer than they are.
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