Topic: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine

[Libertas]

Ukraine would never be allowed to be independent like Switzerland, not under Putin, not under anybody on this planet, ever...they can only be somebody's vassal, period.  Thinking anything else is possible is akin to believing in faeries and unicorns...

I recently heard something similar about Tibet. Some US senior diplomat asked China about why not let Tibet be independent? China guy said Tibet would always be taken over by someone, so let it be China.

Law of the Jungle, might makes right...ya snooze ya get pulverized...get mighty or get on your knees!

[Libertas]

Not sure where that map came from...looks different than ones I've seen...it seems certain the Russians coming down from Belarus to Kyiv shot south (west of Kyiv) in one spot and then another to cut off the M6 or whatever the main highway west is to intercept refugees...concerned I believe that there may be non-refugees in the mix...good luck trying to figure out that without breaking some eggs...

ETA - Sorry, bad memory...M-06 highway...

https://liveuamap.com

Caveat - map refresh runs on a roughly 24 hour lag.

And all the screaming chickens are talking about the end of everything like its no big deal if it ends...so, yeah...all it takes is anybody anywhere (and everybody will distrust/over-trust the who started finger-pointing circle-jerk game) doing something stupid that somebody else jumps on and it all goes hot...so I am not going to tell anybody concerned about where all this is going is stupid to be unconcerned...

There are cabalists of every stripe on every side of this all with skin in the game not interested in backing down no matter what...they're too invested at this point to let any transient diplomacy kick the can down the road...

Nothing can stop the blood-lust consuming everyone...it will have its play...

[Libertas]

https://www.zerohedge.com/political/ukrainian-women-being-forced-prostitution-sex-traffickers-prey-refugees

Well, wars bring out the worst in many...

Friend/foe...hard to tell them apart...

[Libertas]

Things are lurching into bad B movie mode...

https://thelibertydaily.com/conspiracy-theory-confirmed-state-department-admits-concern-over-russia-gaining-control-of-ukraines-bioweapons-labs/

And not only did the fugly stupid Undertroll of FoggyBottom admit the bio-weapons labs are there...but this corrupt illegitimate regime's failure to own up to its role in the Wuhan Lab with the ChiComs is coming back to roost...since the CCP decided to slam the US first...

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/03/biden-official-victoria-nuland-admits-biological-research-labs-ukraine-following-china-russia-accusations-video/

...only in Clown World can you kick yourself in the balls repeatedly and call it "leadership"...   

OK, onto Snyder's 5 Questions:

#1 Are we ready for hundreds of millions of people to perish in a conflict with Russia?
By "we" if you mean the illegitimate JoeFraud regime and the DeepState operators pulling his strings and mouth-breathing imbeciles lapping up their MFM dreck, then the answer is probably yes...but see #2 below as a pause has been reached.
#2 If we provide fighter jets to Ukraine will that mean that we get sucked into a shooting war with Russia?
Yes, but that didn't stop them from wanting it.
Most of us are like Mike - Just, No!  But that didn't stop the Blinken Idiot from pushing it like it was a "done deal" after Poland called him a liar and then the Woke Pentagon in a moment of sanity said "No".
#3 Why are al-Qaeda fighters being allowed to fight for Ukraine?   Caveat-this is a Sputnik sourced allegation...if true I can only see the assclowns at CIA being this reckless.  If I were in the Ukrainian forces pretty sure I would volunteer to lead this trash into an ambush...problem solved.
#4 Does the United States really have 26 biological research labs in Ukraine?   Are regimes the world over in bed with one another hundreds of times over?  Is the Pope a Socialist tool?  Did Anna Nicole marry for money?
#5 Why are Chinese media outlets embedding reporters with Russian military units that are participating in the invasion of Ukraine?
B-b-but China abstained on the UN vote...LOL!  Duh, pals do pals "solids".  Though, not sure any lessons here will help China in Taiwan.
https://noqreport.com/2022/03/09/5-very-strange-questions-that-every-american-should-be-asking-about-the-war-in-ukraine-right-now/

Well that was fun, what else is there?  Seems fairly quiet at the moment.

But...looks like some of the Southern advances spread a hair from yesterday...as did the extension in the East Westward toward Kyiv.

https://liveuamap.com

[Libertas]

Wow, check this out...



The top editor of a Russian state-run media outlet who resigned in protest of President Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine last week is warning that the world could be in danger of a nuclear war.

Maria Baronova, the editor-in-chief of RT, stepped down last week after publicly criticizing the invasion, telling her followers on the encrypted Telegram messaging service: “Our granddads didn’t fight for this.”

The Moscow-based journalist fears that the bloody invasion of Ukraine won’t stop there.

“The problem is, I know these people very well,” Baronova told Fox News Digital.

“They never send threats, they just kill, so there is kind of [a] weird silence around me, but I really think we’re on the brink of a nuclear war right now. I’m not exaggerating.”

Journalists in Russia who publicly criticize government policy risk their safety, but the situation is so dire that Baronova was motivated to speak out, she said.

“I have a son, I can’t leave because his father won’t allow me to leave with him, and so I just prefer to stay in Moscow … It seems like we’re either in North Korea or we are going to be killed by a thermonuclear mushroom,” Baronova told Fox News Digital.

“I wouldn’t quit, and I wouldn’t lose my salary and job if I was sure that we are going to be alive for many years, but I really don’t know what is going to happen to all of us next.”

At the start of the invasion, Putin ordered that his country’s nuclear weapons be prepared for heightened readiness to launch because of what he described as “aggressive statements” by Western adversaries.

Baronova said she doesn’t believe that Putin would resort to nuclear weapons. Instead, she fears that the Russian leader will goad the West into using nonconventional arms against her country.

“I suspect the Western world will use it,” Baronova said. “This is a very dangerous situation.”

Baronova told Fox News Digital that she quit after a colleague at RT posted an Instagram message that read: “If you are now ashamed of being Russian, don’t worry, you are not Russian.”

She said she was “really disturbed” by her colleagues’ willingness to spread government propaganda.

In response to the Instagram post, Baronova wrote: “If I chose to be with Russia, this does not mean that I should walk in a totalitarian system, be silent or, for example, rejoice that the regime, which I do not want for my country, is being exported somewhere else.”

“And this regime will finally turn our life into one endless hell. What’s there. Already turned.”

Baronova said the Instagram post was the last straw, leading her to quit RT.

“That was the moment I decided, ‘OK, that’s it,'” she said.
https://nypost.com/2022/03/09/rt-editor-in-chief-quits-in-protest-of-ukraine-invasion/

I think she has a good read on things in Moscow and DC...she's saying Putin and his allies are thugs and will not stop at just Ukraine...I believe that...there's chatter about Moldova, he's threatening Finland and Sweden (and interestingly, there is an exodus of some Russians to Finland occurring right now), the Baltics are a concern as well as moves on Romania & Bulgaria being possible...she's saying Putin won't go nuclear first but even if true if he keeps rolling into other neighboring countries the triggers can fall fast and it doesn't matter who goes first...

And being labeled "not Russian" is akin to our Marxist ilk here calling us "domestic terrorists"...same crap...

Can you imagine one of the MarxistMedia puppets cutting their strings and saying similar things about JoeFraud et al?  Yeah, she's got more balls and credibility than our counterparts...

I don't think Putin will stop at Ukraine either.  Why would he?  Pentagon is nixing serious hardware for Ukraine and there are no more sanctions to issue.  The only real chance for escalation is if he moves on a current NATO member.  The million dollar question is will he?  Of those other nations I listed 3 including Moldova are not in NATO, so if he moves there it may be just more Westward movement and a strategic status quo...the other 2 currently not in NATO - Sweden & Finland are dicey...Russia and Finland have a history...and its debatable what the Western response to that invasion would be other than a lightning quick acceptance of Sweden into NATO if it plead for it upon seeing its neighbor invaded...then Putin is out of non-NATO nations to gobble up and the stakes could lead to the holocaust Maria Baranova fears.

[Pablo de Fleurs]

**BREAKING VIDEO** Russia Tells the US "We Have Found Your Biological Weapons"

[Libertas]

Nuland already stepped in it yesterday...

Hiding behind legality of Ukrainian ownership while dodging US funding only fools the stupid...

Kinda like Fascist Fauci hiding behind Wuhan...

Hey, wasn't that the same Russian chick that giggled about wanting the West to tell her the Ukraine invasion date...before the invasion?

Anyway, look deep enough...all such "arrangements" are made by gobs of nations and hypocrisy abounds.

And, don't worry...

https://www.weaselzippers.us/480040-russian-occupied-chernobyl-has-no-power-and-48-hours-of-backup-generator-fuel-could-spawn-disaster/

...I'm sure all is well.

Push to Kyiv grows closer and several air raid sirens have been heard - https://liveuamap.com

Suspect the same shelling that Mariupol, Kharkiv and Chernihiv experienced will be seen there soon.

7:37PM local...nothing on cams I can see...but those are so central and limited in view at that point too late has been met.

[Libertas]

More on the labs - https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2022/03/breaking-exclusive-hunter-biden-firm-rosemont-seneca-invested-firm-tied-ukrainian-biolabs/

Keep digging, I'm sure the other players involved in Burisma et al are connected here too...not just Biden's kids...Pelosi's, Kerry's, Romney's, McCain's...

[patentlymn]

Nuland already stepped in it yesterday...

Hiding behind legality of Ukrainian ownership while dodging US funding only fools the stupid...

Kinda like Fascist Fauci hiding behind Wuhan...

Hey, wasn't that the same Russian chick that giggled about wanting the West to tell her the Ukraine invasion date...before the invasion?

Anyway, look deep enough...all such "arrangements" are made by gobs of nations and hypocrisy abounds.

And, don't worry...

https://www.weaselzippers.us/480040-russian-occupied-chernobyl-has-no-power-and-48-hours-of-backup-generator-fuel-could-spawn-disaster/

...I'm sure all is well.

Push to Kyiv grows closer and several air raid sirens have been heard - https://liveuamap.com

Suspect the same shelling that Mariupol, Kharkiv and Chernihiv experienced will be seen there soon.

7:37PM local...nothing on cams I can see...but those are so central and limited in view at that point too late has been met.

Not widely known. Some reactors at Chernobyl were still running after the melt down and workers were bused in every day.

[patentlymn]

This guy talks about the UA bio labs at 12:00
rumble.com/vx0yxy-so-about-those-biolabs-in-ukraine-ep.-960.html
Lots of propaganda on both sides. He looked into the US side noted that they cited US defense agency sources and web site, and those sites were recently taken down and scrubbed. www.dtra.mil 

The US says the labs were not US run. But I recall the US said they were US funded.

I read elsewhere that the labs were level 2 and for food safety. If so why worry.
IMO the US shot their credibility thanks to Wuhan. US says these were to remove threats and dismantle USSR bioweapons.

The US govt said to visit this site for more info. 
www.dtra.mil

This guy tries to pull up links to funding grants and they were missing. Funding was from US DOD, not NIH.

[patentlymn]

Found this on vox day.
I recall that the Kiev govt was going to launch a major offensive on the East but I have no links. Maybe it was some captured plans or statements revealed. I recall reading some statement by some Kiev govt or military to that effect. There was a massive build up of Kiev forces around the Eastern provinces. You could say instead those were to defend against Russian invasion. Those forces are now surrounded. Better they had stayed in the west.  I say "Kiev" to distinguish the west from the east.

I also read several places that Russia was very gentle because they thought they would have more civilian support based on previous history. 75% of the Kiev navy defected? However for years Kiev shut down opposition TV networks and media, jailed opposition, supplied their own news,  and this had an effect.

Also, before, the Kiev troops facing the Donbas were from that region. They were replaced over years with anti Russian troops from the West.


https://voxday.net/2022/03/10/underestimating-the-enemy/

https://thesaker.is/the-opinion-of-a-professional-about-the-special-operation-in-ukraine-must-read/


The opinion of a professional about the special operation in Ukraine (MUST READ!)
35351 Views March 09, 2022 102 Comments

Note by the Saker: one of our readers today sent me a very interesting document in Russian.  First, I thought “more of the same” (5th columnist stuff) but then I started reading it and I changed my mind.  This was clearly written by a military professional, his name is Alexander Dubrovsky.
...
We underestimated the enemy’s power of informational, ideological, psychological resistance, they were waiting for us. Literally on the very first day, with one click of American bloody fingers, they deprived us of the support of the civilian population and those AFU units ready to become neutral. Millions of dollars, thousands of IT guys, global media corporations cut Ukraine off from any objective information, it stank in our country.

And our main losses were in the first three days. Now they will be rapidly reduced. Peacekeeping and humanitarian operations, like the Crimean one— are no longer carried out by the Russian army. The fighters received other orders, got involved, got angry, regrouped, any hopes for active support from the civilian population and those parts of the AFU who had changed their mind were dispelled.
...
There were few flowers and bread loaves to be seen, the people have been crushed by propaganda and lies, intimidated into insanity by the Nazis. Another important point was missed in the calculations — almost 600 thousand Ukrainians have passed through the ATO zone in the Donbas since 2014, today they have replenished the territorial defense everywhere, many have something to fear.

...

This is a war unfamiliar to us veterans. The Russians bent over backwards to avoid collateral civilian damage. This effort was not rewarded due to the successful propagandization of the Ukrainian people. While Russia is still not targeting civilians, it is no longer accepting the higher risks to its soldiers required to avoid collateral damage.

We beat them to it by a week or two, starting our own special operation. This is why Putin ordered the attack when he did, and why the timing came as a surprise even to some of the Russian generals. It’s also how the Russians managed to surround 22 brigades – previously estimated by outsiders to be 10-12 brigades – in the Donbass Pocket.
...

[Libertas]

This guy talks about the UA bio labs at 12:00
rumble.com/vx0yxy-so-about-those-biolabs-in-ukraine-ep.-960.html
Lots of propaganda on both sides. He looked into the US side noted that they cited US defense agency sources and web site, and those sites were recently taken down and scrubbed. www.dtra.mil 

The US says the labs were not US run. But I recall the US said they were US funded.

I read elsewhere that the labs were level 2 and for food safety. If so why worry.
IMO the US shot their credibility thanks to Wuhan. US says these were to remove threats and dismantle USSR bioweapons.

The US govt said to visit this site for more info. 
www.dtra.mil

This guy tries to pull up links to funding grants and they were missing. Funding was from US DOD, not NIH.

DOD could be connected as I believe some of the labs were studying for germ resistance, which would come in handy for new NBC equipment and medical treatment...and being in a former Soviet satellite state could have had local samples to play with.

[Libertas]

Found this on vox day.
I recall that the Kiev govt was going to launch a major offensive on the East but I have no links. Maybe it was some captured plans or statements revealed. I recall reading some statement by some Kiev govt or military to that effect. There was a massive build up of Kiev forces around the Eastern provinces. You could say instead those were to defend against Russian invasion. Those forces are now surrounded. Better they had stayed in the west.  I say "Kiev" to distinguish the west from the east.

I also read several places that Russia was very gentle because they thought they would have more civilian support based on previous history. 75% of the Kiev navy defected? However for years Kiev shut down opposition TV networks and media, jailed opposition, supplied their own news,  and this had an effect.

Also, before, the Kiev troops facing the Donbas were from that region. They were replaced over years with anti Russian troops from the West.


https://voxday.net/2022/03/10/underestimating-the-enemy/

https://thesaker.is/the-opinion-of-a-professional-about-the-special-operation-in-ukraine-must-read/


The opinion of a professional about the special operation in Ukraine (MUST READ!)
35351 Views March 09, 2022 102 Comments

Note by the Saker: one of our readers today sent me a very interesting document in Russian.  First, I thought “more of the same” (5th columnist stuff) but then I started reading it and I changed my mind.  This was clearly written by a military professional, his name is Alexander Dubrovsky.
...
We underestimated the enemy’s power of informational, ideological, psychological resistance, they were waiting for us. Literally on the very first day, with one click of American bloody fingers, they deprived us of the support of the civilian population and those AFU units ready to become neutral. Millions of dollars, thousands of IT guys, global media corporations cut Ukraine off from any objective information, it stank in our country.

And our main losses were in the first three days. Now they will be rapidly reduced. Peacekeeping and humanitarian operations, like the Crimean one— are no longer carried out by the Russian army. The fighters received other orders, got involved, got angry, regrouped, any hopes for active support from the civilian population and those parts of the AFU who had changed their mind were dispelled.
...
There were few flowers and bread loaves to be seen, the people have been crushed by propaganda and lies, intimidated into insanity by the Nazis. Another important point was missed in the calculations — almost 600 thousand Ukrainians have passed through the ATO zone in the Donbas since 2014, today they have replenished the territorial defense everywhere, many have something to fear.

...

This is a war unfamiliar to us veterans. The Russians bent over backwards to avoid collateral civilian damage. This effort was not rewarded due to the successful propagandization of the Ukrainian people. While Russia is still not targeting civilians, it is no longer accepting the higher risks to its soldiers required to avoid collateral damage.

We beat them to it by a week or two, starting our own special operation. This is why Putin ordered the attack when he did, and why the timing came as a surprise even to some of the Russian generals. It’s also how the Russians managed to surround 22 brigades – previously estimated by outsiders to be 10-12 brigades – in the Donbass Pocket.
...

The East and South are definitely more saturated and as a result I don't think we can rely on "news" from East or West that will tell the "whole" truth of anything...and we may never learn years later...

Is what it is...

I know Kiev/Kyiv is center stage, thought Odessa was of interest but perhaps only in mop up...

Lots of sirens going off in Kyiv today so the Russians must be inching closer...and not sure who said the bit about Russians avoiding civilians (seems to really hate Ukrainians bad), in the cities it sounds like not...but is there confirmation they are going door to door like the American's in Iraq?  Large force movements in Iraq bypassed many cities and sped towards Baghdad leave air assets to use smart bombs on military targets in the country and cities...I see no "smart weapons" used by Russian in Ukraine...there are videos of cruise missiles and mortars hitting building and streets indiscriminately...and little flying in recent weeks and not sure if that is a Stinger/Manpads concern but everything seems to be ground operation only.  Some reports put the Russians only 3 miles away from the city.

[patentlymn]

I see propaganda on both sides. Although the Russian central govt gave orders not to report without permission so there has been little news coming from Russia. Kiev is winning the PR/propaganda war by far. Russia is winning the ground war.

IMO Russia does not want to govern Kiev. Kiev would be pain in the butt. I could not find a number but Odessa is vastly Russian. I heard one guy say it was hard to find a Ukrainian speaker in the city to sign govt papers. That sounds extreme but he said it. Odessa may prove too tempting to give up. Absent some land bridge, UA could become land locked.

If the map below is accurate ......

[Libertas]

It looks thicker than my UA link...so the "truth" might be more between the two, but directionally they look alike.

[patentlymn]

I keep reading that the Russians are going to invade cities like Kiev. Why bother? Surround them and wait.
Maybe I am missing something. I can see the advantage of taking a port city like Odessa, but Russia could take their time.
The Russians can allow people out like they did in Syria. I heard that any mayor wanting to make nice with Russia will be executed. Also Zelensky. He is screwed.

I grew up hearing last letters from Stalingrad on  PBS radio every Christmas. As I recall, the German 6th Army was surrounded. They had to surrender. The generals wanted to retreat before winter but Hitler micromanaged.

Germans surrounded Leningrad and 1.5 million died. Why waste bullets and troops when you do not have to?

BTW the "Hardcore History" cheap/free audio book series is very good. Also Enemy at the Gates is an accurate movie.

[Libertas]

This seems desperate - https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/putin-send-fighters-middle-east-ukraine-despite-peace-optimism
"Volunteers"...Syrians?  Volunteered by Assad no doubt.  Why do they need them?

I see no real change 24 hours later - https://liveuamap.com

Disbursed seems to indicate an attempt to avoid juicy ambush targets...indicating ambushes are taking a toll - https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/satellite-images-appear-show-russian-convoy-near-kyiv-has-dispersed-redeployed

Well, if they are getting ambushed as much as some claim, it might be holding up any intent to enter Kyiv...

And if true, then...why are people so worried about Russia?


H/T-WZ

Seems a big fuss over nothing...an argument to throw in the towel...agree to some reasonable partition of Ukraine...have America pull of of NATO and let Euro's handle the Teddy Bear!   

On the other hand, if the slow movement is purposeful and has nothing to do with resistance encountered...I think it a risky move to wait it out and starve people in the city...it's more bad PR for Russia, it drags this on longer with all of the attendant risks and spawning of more schemes and invites Ukrainians to strike at static lines...and...

https://www.weaselzippers.us/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Screenshot-2022-03-10-214836-768x460.png
H/T-WZ

...and Russian bonds are in technical default.

Can the ChiComs really cover this much pain?  I doubt they can cover it all...

As for labs...seems it is still a finfer-pointing side-show...but with WHO involved (just like in Wuhan) I'm sure the BS is about to get bigger...wouldn't surprise me if the ChiCom's had a hand in these too, though we won't get the WHO or anyone admit that...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/who-told-ukraine-destroy-high-threat-pathogens-prevent-disease-spread

But, appears the side-show wants to entertain the UNSC...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/russia-calls-un-security-council-meeting-over-biological-activities-ukraine

...which seems to be a Hail Mary PR play at best since the US can return the Russian veto on any action.

[paulh]

Has anyone seen the tossing of bodies into a mass trench on our media. Saw it last nite on Univision, gruesome. Too bad I dropped Spanish 60 years ago.

[patentlymn]

I read different versions about the biolabs. One was that they related to food safety and were level 2 labs. Then were are told the contents are very dangerous. They were funded by US military budgets and the links to the grants recently vanished.
Tucker Carlson had some good comments about the bio labs. They had 17 years to remove USSR bio weapons ig that was their function. What exactly where they doing?
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker-carlson-questions-biolabs-ukraine-everyone-asking

Thanks to Wuhan lab and Fauci, the US govt had less credibility than Russia.



Map at 7:30 from the Guardian followed by repetition of the MSM narrative from reporters staying in Kiev. Mostly about Kiev.
https://youtu.be/U9uZLn35tzw?t=451

Map at 10:24 followed by Russian narrative, mostly about the east. Likely map from Russia?
https://youtu.be/U9uZLn35tzw?t=624

IMO the Russians are following their plan to encircle the UA army in the East and some big cities. They did not mean to invade Kiev or kill Zelensky.  They need a functioning govt to negotiate with. They do not want to destroy the UA govt. The US did that in Iraq, fired every Baath party member, and chaos was the result.

Good commentary from some Russia expert. Russia had lots of reserves and a small debt but many were in foreign central banks and they did not expect those to be seized.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTLXe8qId5A&t=1600s

[Pandora]

Has anyone seen the tossing of bodies into a mass trench on our media. Saw it last nite on Univision, gruesome. Too bad I dropped Spanish 60 years ago.

AC, just FYI, that clip is debunked as having nothing to do with Ukraine/Russia. It is from an Austrian ‘climate’ protest where protesters dramatically wrapped themselves in ‘body bags’, Greta Thunberg-style. #Foxfail.

From here:  https://www.anonymousconservative.com/blog/news-briefs-03-11-2022/

Comment by "Indigo Arc"