Topic: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine

[patentlymn]

Do not follow that story about the missing guy.
The Norwegian prof says that Putin is not considered a hard liner in Russia and that if he goes things get worse.
Russian hardliners did not want to build the NS2 pipeline but Putin did. Now that blew up in his face for trusting the west and he has to eat lots of crow.

It is not hard to believe that US wants regime change also in Russia then China. Remember the Wesley Clark video clip about the US wanting regime change in 7 countries in 5 years. The rest of the world is not blind.

The US does not care about UA. They will destroy it like they did Libya and Syria.

https://youtu.be/TY2DKzastu8?t=73

[Libertas]

If things got worse in Russia would the average Russian even know it?   

Yeah, exactly my point on Shoigu...NOBODY knows anything...

Why worry?  Dude is only in the troika of Rus nuclear command authority...nothing to see here...move along...

/



Latest news - https://www.zerohedge.com/military/limited-russian-pullback-near-kiev-no-breakthroughs-talks-amid-colossal-attack-chernihiv - same old same old.

[Libertas]

Senor Escobar seems to be excited and cannot stop touching himself...out with the Uke nationalists, in with the, uhh, Rus nationalists...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/escobar-how-mariupol-will-become-key-hub-eurasian-integration

...while I am not as enthused as he, I see this as a good thing...the Uke's would be better off letting their Rus-favoring former Eastern province go merrily into their new masters hands...and the ecological mess and everything that goes with it...

And I'm sure the BRICs and Iran will dance and sing or whatever...don't care...

As for the Uke diaspora...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/over-4-million-have-fled-ukraine-65m-internally-displaced-un

...seems many in Europe are less charitable about hosting Caucasian Christians than they are rampaging Mohammadans...

And, since consolidation of East and whatever into the arms of the Russian Empire...i reckon eyes will turn to Moldova, Baltics, Poland...

Oh lookie, Puti's lapdog snarling about the very same...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/kremlin-warns-poland-over-becoming-natos-front-line

Yeah, poor Rus, always getting blamed for everything...gosh, perhaps we should just green light them to loot, rape and pillage...

Heck, DemCom's here specialize in just that very thing!!!

Looks like the Shoigu Shuffle could still be in play...

[patentlymn]

^^^
I do not follow the details on the steel plant. Good post on the details above.
Alex on the Duran said that he heard Kherson had declared independence. That should be interesting.
I hope the Russians hold back some on attacking the plant. Every week that Zelensky delays in settling the worse the settlement will be.

Thanks to the 2015 anti Russian sanction many UA heavy industries and others that sold to Russia were harmed.Motor Sich?

Fighting over the steel plant made me think of Stalingrad. There were battles over a single floor of  plants which changed hands over time, back and forth. I watched the Soviet Storm documentaries on the Eastern front, Ukraine, Sevastopol. I think the docs were on Amazon Prime.

From memory. In the fall before this kicked off the exchange rate was around 70 rubles per USD. Then weeks ago around 130. Now around 82. I thought the ruble was supposed to crash? There is some confusion about paying for gas in rubles. Is there a work around where the EU pays in Euros, and some Russian banks coverts them to Rubles?  Putin made a recent speech where he explained that accepting Euros meant Russia was giving its gas away as the Euros would be seized.

[Libertas]

Yes, posted that in the Econ thread, basically its a semantics game, nothing has changed...or if you will the sanctions are being ignored...EU pays in Euro's, Gazprombank flips to Rubles which props up the Ruble, EU gets their gas...

Literally, nothing has changed, except semantics.

As to the larger points on sanctions, many are saying Russia is not the target, we are.  But as always it is bogus to engage in investing only in one or the other or quibble on scale loads...it is truly both.

As for this...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ukrainian-forces-reportedly-blow-fuel-depot-russian-territory-daring-cross-border

...I find it a little hard to believe a Russian false-flag attack on their own fuel depot...but regardless...some of the most daring/bloody events occur when enemies are negotiating peace, history is full of examples.

ETA - Tyler(z) "huge escalation"...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/germany-approves-sending-combat-tanks-ukraine-huge-escalation

56 Soviet relics from East German days...huge escalation...   

It's not like helping Mahdi Death Cultists with nuclear sh!t!   

ETA - Found this...


H/T-CTH

It's where I started, and where I expect to end.

[patentlymn]

I had youtube on this am. It was reported that 5 helicopters tried to remove Azov leaders from Mariupol. 3 succeeded. 2 were shot down, one of those with survivors. Not great for morale IMO when the brass leaves the others behind.

It said that one of the helicopters was shot down with a stinger missile.

[patentlymn]

Here is how I understand the rubles for gas deal. The Russians have managed to structure this deal so that their money is not at risk of being confiscated which was the west's plan so the west is pissed off. Also, Russia gets to control  the exchange rate! EU might get off better by buying rubles elsewhere.

Holeee sh*t. The duran just said that 80% of UA think they are winning the war. IMO that shows the propaganda is working as UA is losing.

The UA strike on the Russian oil depot is like the Doolittle raid on Japan. Great for PR but changes nothing.
The Doolittle raid actually screwed over the Chinese as the Japs thought that the planes came from China as I recall. The Japs retaliated against Chinese.

also
The best military analysis I have heard. 50 minutes.
The Russians have pinned down UA forces in Kiev and Odessa to keep them from fighting elsewhere.  Also somewhat in Khrakov?  Amphibious forces outside Odessa are used like the US did in one of the Gulf Wars, to keep Iraqi forces from leaving as they must remain just in case the amphibious US forces landed.  The UA forces in the east are surrounded per plan.

Ritter gave the UA a grade of A as they did the best they could with what they had. He gave the Russians a grade of B as they abandoned their traditional training and tactics and fought with one hand tied behind their backs and screw up on occasion. He said only the Russians can maneuver now.

Ritter said the Russians expected a warmer welcome as they had before e.g. in Kharkov.

He said the UA army was well trained to NATO standards and had good weapons. But they were not up to NATO standards for air power and anti air defense.

https://rumble.com/vz4nx4-gonzalo-lira-in-conversation-with-scott-ritter-30-march-2022.html
Gonzalo Lira in conversation with Scott Ritter - 30 March, 2022

https://twitter.com/realgonzalolira/status/1509142811781832707?s=28&t=IuVGU0Hej4CkWnJdwp9yYQ

The duran said the CEO of Germany's largest chemical company said if gas shuts off he will lay off 40K people and shut down.

Scott Ritter gives a 2 min summary how Azov took over the peace process and the military.
https://rumble.com/vx80dh-we-trained-nazis-former-us-marine-corp-intelligence-officer-scott-ritter..html

[Libertas]

As I said, the whole Rubles for gas thing is semantics only...sanctions bypassed...JoeFraud humiliated yet again...

And, I think it is wrong to think of this pissing contest being "won" by anybody, everybody lost...especially civilians...especially those in the former Soviet gulag...(that quip about Rus being surprised at not be welcomed as the Slavic liberator...remember that!)...

Don't care about Nazis, don't care about Imperialist Russians wanting to regain their Soviet size, don't care about feckless Eurotard's, don't about oligarchs East or West getting their balls battered...

Winning?  Come on, the propaganda on both sides is thick with BS!  Russia for whatever reasons it may admit or not admit didn't achieve a total victory and the Ukrainians didn't get totally defeated despite being totally outnumbered, out-equipped and almost completely without any air assets...and regardless if we will ever learn the truth Russia can characterize their special operation any way they desire and I think it obvious they will have nothing but heroics and no admissions of error to declare. 

No matter the outcome, no matter what gets negotiated...if anybody thinks the region will remain peaceful is batshyt-crazy.  As I said many times...this is going to be a pyrrhic victory for Putin & Co...if he thinks this is going to dissuade other for Soviet occupied peoples from reaching out for NATO or dissuade Americans to abandon NATO it is the exact opposite that is occurring...regardless if you, me...we don't like it...it is happening, it will continue to happen and there isn't a damn thing we can do to stop it.

Hero of the Russian Federation, General of the Army and most recently Russian Minister of Defense Sergei Shoigu...is still missing...and after this much time I have to presume he is either rotting in the cells of Lubyanka or rotting in a hole in Khimki forest...so, out with Putin's closest friend and in ascendance is the incendiary Nikolai Patrushev, the Director of the Russian Security Council and FSB.  Patrushev is a long time spook recruited by the KGB in 1975 and this clown is a true-believer in the nobility of his FSB elect and he has hated America since the Cold War and remains convinced America wants Russia to disappear and he is on record stating the Theocracy of Iran is and will remain a vital ally and partner with Russia.  He loathes the West like a diehard Soviet and it shows and he is rumored to have a hand in all of the big corruptions and assassinations over the past two decades.  A model Russian Christian in every respect, eh?  And it appears Putin is also shuffling other high-ranking officers in and out of top positions over opposition to Ukraine policy.  The hard-liners are in ascendance, there will be more special operations, more threats, more opportunities for catastrophic errors.  Bank on it.

ETA in support of NATO point...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/natos-poland-says-its-willing-hosting-us-nukes-russia-deterrent

Past abuse victims memories have not faded...

[patentlymn]

From the above ZH link

Addressing the US troop presence, he said, "Poland would be pleased if the Americans increased their presence in Europe from the current 100,000 soldiers up to 150,000 in the future due to Russia's increasing aggressiveness."

I have a better idea. EU can suck it up and increase their own spending and number of troops.

I do not think that Russia will try to increase control over all of UA. Military people have estimated the number of troops to, say, take over Kiev. The number is much too high. Invading Poland? No way. The cost to Russia would be much too high.

I think Russia will hold referendums in the south in UA.  They will never give up some independence for the eastern regions. UA had the chance to settle for mild terms before the invasion. After Russia shed blood the terms will be much worse. 

The WSJ reported that German chancellor Scholz told Zelensky on Feb 19 that if he went public renouncing plans to not join NATO then Biden and Putin would sign a security agreement for UA but Zelensky refused. War could have been avoided. IMO Scholz should have gone public and said UA would never join NATO.

IMO there will be regime change in Germany, France, and UK long before any in Russia. They will freeze in the dark thanks to their own mismanagement, not due to Russia.

[Libertas]

I'd put money down on Putin and his new inner circle of Patrushev and the rest of the hardliners causing more trouble in the coming years...

ETA - How timely!

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/niall-ferguson-seven-worst-case-scenarios-war-ukraine

[Libertas]

Despite the (p)anti-war scribblers bias...I do not see this as being all that revealing...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/zelensky-rejected-german-security-proposal-russian-invasion

...pretty sure two devils pledging to be stand up fellows to a third party each wants to devour for their own selfish lusts is a stupid idea only a fool could praise...

...it's closest comparison would be the Hitler-Stalin Non-Aggression Pact...we know how well that worked out.

I think Zelensky rejected it for good reason, it was NATO and Article 5 or nothing...he had no desire to see Ukraine split in half, and he had no desire to be gobbled in whole by Russia given their historical domination and persecution of his people...he wanted the full-meal-deal with the Western Devils...and he got screwed.  Once again, it shows true independence can only be achieved if you seize it for yourself.  Picking a master to kneel to is stupid, always has been, always will be.

[Libertas]

Speaking of stupid...

The Bucha BS...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/kremlin-calls-bucha-narrative-monstrous-forgery-eu-urgently-readies-energy-sanctions

Dead civilians?  Sure, in lot's of towns...who killed them?   

Russians have "video" days after leaving Bucha and Uke's moving back in?  What is the provenance of the "video"?  <crickets>

You cannot tell me both the US and Russia...and likely China and others...with all the spy satellites in orbit are NOT watching Ukraine 24/7...

So, where's that "evidence", hmmm?

To me the finger-pointing and lack of proof is only making it look like all concerned have zero interest in sharing their dirty laundry!  ALL are culpable, period!  That's the truth nobody wants to discuss.

And this is over-dramatized to be sure...there is no way that corrupt and divided body will boot Russia from the Security Council...it won't boot China...it won't boot the US, though I wish it would!  Then, the dissolution Zelensky threw out there would go quickly from fantasy to reality...and the US could expel all that crap out of our country.

Still, it's a happy thought...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/watch-zelenksy-addresses-un-security-council-bucha-mass-killing-allegations

"Dissolve yourself" is a rallying cry I can get into without any preconditions or debate!  Today the UN, tomorrow NATO...if we can flush DemCom's & DecptiCons from power it would be the ultimate Liberty Trifecta!

 

[patentlymn]

Despite the (p)anti-war scribblers bias...I do not see this as being all that revealing...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/zelensky-rejected-german-security-proposal-russian-invasion

...pretty sure two devils pledging to be stand up fellows to a third party each wants to devour for their own selfish lusts is a stupid idea only a fool could praise...

...it's closest comparison would be the Hitler-Stalin Non-Aggression Pact...we know how well that worked out.

I think Zelensky rejected it for good reason, it was NATO and Article 5 or nothing...he had no desire to see Ukraine split in half, and he had no desire to be gobbled in whole by Russia given their historical domination and persecution of his people...he wanted the full-meal-deal with the Western Devils...and he got screwed.  Once again, it shows true independence can only be achieved if you seize it for yourself.  Picking a master to kneel to is stupid, always has been, always will be.

I think Zelensky rejected it for a good reason. Azov would have put a bullet in his head.
It would not have hurt to try it, and at least try to honor the Minsk agreements. Zelenzky outright refused to even meet with the eastern regions as agreed to in the agreements.

Also, I understand that article 5 does not require mutual aid or has not been used that way.
Scott Ritter notes that UA govt apparently is not gathering evidence or allowing investigations in Bucha. He says UA already won the propaganda war on this will not benefit from any investigation. Russia has already been blamed by the west. He says the international human rights criminal court  investigator(?) is already on the ground in UA and asks why he is not investigating.

Also, Russia wanted some emergency meeting of the US security council but UK voted to block it and US said it was a Russian trick.
https://rumble.com/vzmkp3-facts-are-not-the-friends-of-ukraine-and-its-allies-right-now-scott-ritter-.html
‘Facts are not the friends of Ukraine and its allies right now’ – Scott Ritter on Bucha allegations
RT
Published April 4, 2022 4,013 Views

[Libertas]

Despite the (p)anti-war scribblers bias...I do not see this as being all that revealing...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/zelensky-rejected-german-security-proposal-russian-invasion

...pretty sure two devils pledging to be stand up fellows to a third party each wants to devour for their own selfish lusts is a stupid idea only a fool could praise...

...it's closest comparison would be the Hitler-Stalin Non-Aggression Pact...we know how well that worked out.

I think Zelensky rejected it for good reason, it was NATO and Article 5 or nothing...he had no desire to see Ukraine split in half, and he had no desire to be gobbled in whole by Russia given their historical domination and persecution of his people...he wanted the full-meal-deal with the Western Devils...and he got screwed.  Once again, it shows true independence can only be achieved if you seize it for yourself.  Picking a master to kneel to is stupid, always has been, always will be.

I think Zelensky rejected it for a good reason. Azov would have put a bullet in his head.
It would not have hurt to try it, and at least try to honor the Minsk agreements. Zelenzky outright refused to even meet with the eastern regions as agreed to in the agreements.

Also, I understand that article 5 does not require mutual aid or has not been used that way.
Scott Ritter notes that UA govt apparently is not gathering evidence or allowing investigations in Bucha. He says UA already won the propaganda war on this will not benefit from any investigation. Russia has already been blamed by the west. He says the international human rights criminal court  investigator(?) is already on the ground in UA and asks why he is not investigating.

Also, Russia wanted some emergency meeting of the US security council but UK voted to block it and US said it was a Russian trick.
https://rumble.com/vzmkp3-facts-are-not-the-friends-of-ukraine-and-its-allies-right-now-scott-ritter-.html
‘Facts are not the friends of Ukraine and its allies right now’ – Scott Ritter on Bucha allegations
RT
Published April 4, 2022 4,013 Views

Yeah, I despise all potentates on the planet...my default is unchanged...



The PTB's have ruined every spot on the planet...made this world a universal sh!thole...

[patentlymn]

Russian response to the Bucha incident.

https://thesaker.is/press-briefing-by-permanent-representative-vassily-nebenzia-on-the-situation-in-the-town-of-bucha-kiev-region-and-related-matters/

Press Briefing by Permanent Representative Vassily Nebenzia on the situation in the town of Bucha (Kiev Region) and related matters
15774 Views April 05, 2022 99 Comments

https://russiaun.ru/en/news/pressconf_040422

4 April 2022

Vassily Nebenzia: These are unprecedented times, as you know. What is also unprecedented is what happened yesterday and earlier today. It was unprecedented, unbelievable, and unthinkable. We were denied a Security Council meeting that we requested today from the British Presidency. During my time here, I had emergency meetings of the Security Council on many issues that happened on weekends, on US holidays, etc, and we never objected. What happened is something unbelievable and unprecedented in the history of the United Nations. That is a fact.
....[much more at link]

[patentlymn]

Scott Ritter on his bio. He was air force brat. Majored in Russian history. Joined USMC to kill Russians. Studied Russian military history and doctrine.

Scott says this war has been decades in the making. Not a sudden risky act by Putin.
16:00 Scott cites 2007 Putin speech in Munich. He says it was a great speech. "Do you not know what you have done?"
17:00 He cites the Amb. Wm Burns memo 2009 "Nyet means nyet."   Burns said Russian concerns are real. Consequences will mean Russian will have no choice but to attack. UA will be destroyed. Crimea and Donbas will be lost. He wrote this in 2009.

2014 US backed coup. UA became hyper nationalistic. Nazis weaponized.  Russia was threatened.

23 min. Current goals de Nazi and de militarize. From 2015 on UA army was NATO trained. 1/3 are inter operable with NATO units.

fascinating guy. said he lived in Russia as part of weapons inspector at a rocket factory and learned Russians were humans. Later He quit as UN weapons inspector due to US pressure to do things? He was invited by Jack Kemp to run for congress but did not feel comfortable. So he told donors that he thought abortion was woman's choice and thought training and registration should be required for weapons ownership and would not lie about either.

https://youtu.be/EFpKmbjhuk0
 
SCOTT RITTER: Ukraine War Could Have Been Avoided, but Here's Why Putin Will Achieve His Goals
96,259 views
Premiered Apr 1, 2022
Gerald Celente
172K subscribers

[Syzygy]

You left this bit out of Ritter's bio,  Pat:

Scott Ritter's Sex Charges from 2001 Unsealed
Published on December 29, 2010 by

By BRENDAN J. LYONS
Albany Times Union | December 29, 2010

William Scott Ritter Jr., a former United Nations weapons inspector who gained renown for his criticism of U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East, contends his online sexual encounters with teenage girls were only fantasy.

Nearly two years ago, Ritter, of Delmar, watched his computer screen reveal that an anonymous person who had been exchanging sexually charged messages with him for 80 minutes was not a 15-year-old girl.
......
https://constantinereport.com/scott-ritters-sex-charges-from-2001-unsealed/

I remember agreeing with him about some of his criticisms of our ME foreign,  e.g.,  when he criticized the way we took out the Taliban in Afghanistan,  saying it could have been done with air supported special forces,  and his opposition to the Iraq war.  But it eventually got to the point where all he did was criticize,  seemingly only for the purpose of being a contrarian--whatever position the U.S. took on foreign policy,  he would take the opposite.  Nothing wrong with that if you're right and know you're right,  but I don't think anyone at that time could be as honestly self assured as Ritter was in his criticisms. 
Then when the above story broke about him,  I wrote him off...for good. 

[Libertas]

Russian response to the Bucha incident.

https://thesaker.is/press-briefing-by-permanent-representative-vassily-nebenzia-on-the-situation-in-the-town-of-bucha-kiev-region-and-related-matters/

Press Briefing by Permanent Representative Vassily Nebenzia on the situation in the town of Bucha (Kiev Region) and related matters
15774 Views April 05, 2022 99 Comments

https://russiaun.ru/en/news/pressconf_040422

4 April 2022

Vassily Nebenzia: These are unprecedented times, as you know. What is also unprecedented is what happened yesterday and earlier today. It was unprecedented, unbelievable, and unthinkable. We were denied a Security Council meeting that we requested today from the British Presidency. During my time here, I had emergency meetings of the Security Council on many issues that happened on weekends, on US holidays, etc, and we never objected. What happened is something unbelievable and unprecedented in the history of the United Nations. That is a fact.
....[much more at link]

Vassily needs a tissue.   

 

Russia wants meeting!  West wanted NSC vote to end the war.  They are all stupid little brats!   

[Libertas]

You left this bit out of Ritter's bio,  Pat:

Scott Ritter's Sex Charges from 2001 Unsealed
Published on December 29, 2010 by

By BRENDAN J. LYONS
Albany Times Union | December 29, 2010

William Scott Ritter Jr., a former United Nations weapons inspector who gained renown for his criticism of U.S. foreign policy in the Middle East, contends his online sexual encounters with teenage girls were only fantasy.

Nearly two years ago, Ritter, of Delmar, watched his computer screen reveal that an anonymous person who had been exchanging sexually charged messages with him for 80 minutes was not a 15-year-old girl.
......
https://constantinereport.com/scott-ritters-sex-charges-from-2001-unsealed/

I remember agreeing with him about some of his criticisms of our ME foreign,  e.g.,  when he criticized the way we took out the Taliban in Afghanistan,  saying it could have been done with air supported special forces,  and his opposition to the Iraq war.  But it eventually got to the point where all he did was criticize,  seemingly only for the purpose of being a contrarian--whatever position the U.S. took on foreign policy,  he would take the opposite.  Nothing wrong with that if you're right and know you're right,  but I don't think anyone at that time could be as honestly self assured as Ritter was in his criticisms. 
Then when the above story broke about him,  I wrote him off...for good.

"It's all fantasy..."

Said every groomer and Epstein rape buddy ever!

[Libertas]

In other news...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ukraine-receives-tanks-czech-republic-after-reports-us-quietly-assisting

...a dozen old T-72's won't win the war...but will make the cost a bit higher for the invaders, and that's about all.

However, the woke Pentagon REMF's are all-in on a long bloody conflict in Europe...

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2022/04/05/joint-chiefs-chairman-general-mark-milley-sees-ukraine-as-a-long-term-protracted-battle/

...so, unless legitimate leadership returns to the White House and Congress and the unraveling of sh!t and more important the mass expelling of sh!t occurs, or it doesn't and the descent into Hell nationally and globally goes full-tilt unstoppable...

PS - How to get raw data, verify dates?

https://twitter.com/Maxar/status/1511095975821168650

Otherwise this thing remains unproven either way.

ETA - Now the Mayor of Motyzhyn and her husband and son are claimed to have been tortured and murdered by Russians.

https://nypost.com/2022/04/04/ukrainian-mayor-found-executed-as-images-of-mass-grave-are-released/

These pictures and those of Bucha are not pleasant...somebody killed them...and so far Ukraine appears to be winning the propaganda war on it...

But, as I stated earlier...no government releasing their sat info...nobody getting a different story out of locals...and all it takes is for one episode to be true and it won't matter how many aren't...damage done.