Author Topic: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine  (Read 88095 times)

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Online patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1120 on: November 08, 2022, 09:17:12 AM »


They are more tolerant under post-Soviet Russia than Soviet Russia, No?!

/

So, The Putin Doctrine of seizing territory where people (had to) speak Russian in the Soviet days and where settlement (of ethnic Russian) people in these areas (under said previous Soviet and Imperial Russian governments) makes domination of these areas (or having their pro-Russia puppet running the whole country) is sufficient legitimacy to annex territory?  How many people speak English around the world where the US and England could annex them?  How does that make the Russian government more ethical than the West wanting their puppet running things?  Toe-may-to/toe-mah-to!  Same thing.  As I said, nobody wants to give the Ukrainian people a true legitimate chance at independence. B-b-b-but they are too corrupt?  No sh*t?  Where did they learn that from?  Corrupt Imperial Russia, Soviet Russia, Western exploiters?  All of the above.

No angels, no saints, no morally superior folks involved on any side of this.  That is the only truth.

I never said any of those things.


Putin doctrine? Where did you get that?

I had no idea that at least a second local language is taught in Russian Federations schools in 21 or 22 republics. There must be a reason for that.  If some Russians proposed to stop teaching Chechen in Chechnya public schools, to remove those books, and fine people for speaking it in stores (as they did in Ukraine) what is the upside to compensate for the civil disturbance?

I understand the reasons for the WWII Germans and Japanese trying to grab some empire as they were late to that party. There was a big upside if they succeeded. I can't see a big upside to Kiev taking actions that would lead to war. The planned Mar 2022 invasion of Donbass would have done that. You can 'blame' many parties but a different route could have been taken to avoid war. I conclude that Kiev and especially  DC wanted war. We seem to have been in more than a few in recent decades and not by accident.

No analogy is perfect. What if the US wanted to have Taiwan join NATO but doing so would trigger a Chinese invasion? Would we do it because of some right we say Taiwan has? After all, the western press would blame Pres Xi for the invasion so that would be worth the mess?  Knowing all that should be have Taiwan join NATO?  Shouldn't they have that right? Or no?

The US used some "responsibility to protect" as a reason to destroy Libya. We used a similar excuse to protect ethnic Albanians inside Kosovo to bomb Serbia. These places are on the other side of the world.
When Russia claims similar motivations to protect Russian speakers and ethnic Russians inside Ukraine on their border we pretend these reasons are fake.

I think the real bad guys in Ukraine are the US and the west. If the US had made it clear that in the event of war we would not aid Kiev their actions would have been different. People in the Donbass did not want independence or to be part of Russia. Read the old polls. They wanted some autonomy. You can read that. Speak their language and maybe elect local officials like their governor. Russia did not want them independent or part of Russia until this year. You can read that. Kiev could have extracted wealth and taxes as before. Win win. But that would avoid war which the US wanted and planned for for years.

The US via UK messengers blew up the Apr 2022 Istanbul proposals from Kiev because we wanted more war. We care about Ukrainians as much as Libyans or Syrians. Zero.
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1121 on: November 08, 2022, 11:43:11 AM »
Putin Doctrine comes from, well...Putin...

Read his pre-invasion statements and annexation statements.  Zero mention of how those areas came to have Russians/Russian speakers.  It was a gift, without which we would not be having this conversation.

People in the CHAD or whatever it was called, all the defund the police folks...Somali and other "immigrants" (no distinction of legal or illegal necessary) basically want autonomy too...within the US...

Where is it writ we have to give it or tolerate it?   ::whatgives::

You come to a country, inside its borders regardless if you like those borders or not...you assimilate into that nation, its laws, its language...its culture...that had been the traditional American experience...doesn't say you cannot believe whatever the hell you want, doesn't say you can't speak whatever you want in your home...just means in day to day life you adapt to your host country...

Why didn't ethnic Russians leave Ukraine?  Did they have the option granted to them by post-Soviet Russia?  If they stayed did they think they could be autonomous?  Who gave them that idea?

I come back to the same point...no saints...nobody can mind their own business, nobody is accountable for any of their past actions...picking sides is futile and can only guarantee endless conflict...

If a meteor came down and made a crater of the entire area, perhaps then people would move on...but I doubt it...
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Online patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1122 on: November 08, 2022, 02:44:39 PM »
That is a rather provincial American way of viewing the whole world.
Many regions have more than one official language.
I gave several examples.
Live and let live is one way of getting along. I prefer that.
Much of the world gets along just fine that way.
Driving one ethnic group out a region is another way that has been done over history. You prefer that.
Ethnic Russians and Russian speakers loyal to Kiev have fled west and been driven back because people in western Ukr mostly hate Russians and Russian speakers.
Ukraine is not the US.
When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown

Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1123 on: November 08, 2022, 04:58:37 PM »
That is a rather provincial American way of viewing the whole world.
Many regions have more than one official language.
I gave several examples.
Live and let live is one way of getting along. I prefer that.
Much of the world gets along just fine that way.
Driving one ethnic group out a region is another way that has been done over history. You prefer that.
Ethnic Russians and Russian speakers loyal to Kiev have fled west and been driven back because people in western Ukr mostly hate Russians and Russian speakers.
Ukraine is not the US.

Provincial?  Ukraine not the US?  No sh*t?!

And I did not say drive anybody out...I asked why people chose to stay?  In America there is assimilation into the culture and tradition...well, used to be...now thanks to commies and cucks we have foreign enclaves in our midst, cultural degradation and dumbing down to the lowest denominator possible...

Since we're not driving anybody out you have to be loving latter day America, eh?
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Online Pandora

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1124 on: November 08, 2022, 05:04:36 PM »
I'd not like to see this place havin' a blowout, if y'all please.   ::curtsy4::
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Online patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1125 on: November 08, 2022, 05:54:01 PM »
That is a rather provincial American way of viewing the whole world.
Many regions have more than one official language.
I gave several examples.
Live and let live is one way of getting along. I prefer that.
Much of the world gets along just fine that way.
Driving one ethnic group out a region is another way that has been done over history. You prefer that.
Ethnic Russians and Russian speakers loyal to Kiev have fled west and been driven back because people in western Ukr mostly hate Russians and Russian speakers.
Ukraine is not the US.

Provincial?  Ukraine not the US?  No sh*t?!

And I did not say drive anybody out...I asked why people chose to stay?  In America there is assimilation into the culture and tradition...well, used to be...now thanks to commies and cucks we have foreign enclaves in our midst, cultural degradation and dumbing down to the lowest denominator possible...

Since we're not driving anybody out you have to be loving latter day America, eh?

Why does anyone chose to stay anywhere?
The same reasons as those.
They were born someplace  as where their parents and grandparents.
They have friends and relatives and jobs.
They don't all speak the same language in the one country as mostly in the US.
In Switzerland they have 3 official languages. Are they supposed to "assimilate"?
Q. Why doesn't Russia outlaw speaking any language but Russian in stores in their 22 republics?
A. Because it would be stupid and self destructive.
When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown

Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1126 on: November 09, 2022, 07:57:55 AM »
Well, I guess I stop asking questions...seems expectations are at variance with reality that no amount of wishes and finger-pointing are unlikely to alter in the slightest so I will restrain myself to only posting actual activity related to this unending conflict...
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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1127 on: November 09, 2022, 08:19:37 AM »
Well, I guess I stop asking questions...seems expectations are at variance with reality that no amount of wishes and finger-pointing are unlikely to alter in the slightest so I will restrain myself to only posting actual activity related to this unending conflict...

I don't see anything wrong with asking questions, however ............ horse to water/no drinkee seems to be the issue, as you've indicated.

And, apparently, a subtle word is non-effective in some parts.
"Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer." - Mark Twain

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Online patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1128 on: November 10, 2022, 11:26:53 AM »
Have this guy on in background. Covers a lot of ground.
I think he is on to something.
He reads a lot.
I have heard the same thing before.
The Chinese people believe that the system is generally responsive to what they want.
More so than US people.
Even a monarchy can be responsive.
https://youtu.be/6ZK25FLrlUY
EUROPE'S FUTURE IS SET.. AND IT AIN'T PRETTY
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1129 on: November 10, 2022, 11:47:12 AM »
Everybody's future is set...and it's gonna be a blast...

https://westernrifleshooters.us/2022/11/08/ap-not-good/

We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1130 on: November 11, 2022, 08:39:17 AM »
Silly Hungarians...

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/hungary-explains-huge-impact-total-failure-anti-russia-sanctions-europeans

...none of the antagonists (your perspective, pick any one!) wants peace...

...strength, power...violence is the order of the day...

...all states like Hungary will get is blown away by all sides.

This thing will get hotter, everybody excited to start tossing nukes.

Got the Arctic going hotter now...

https://www.zerohedge.com/military/watch-us-drops-experimental-parachuted-missile-arctic-warning-russia

All trends remain firmly in step with the war drum beat...

We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Online patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1131 on: November 11, 2022, 12:39:17 PM »
Silly Hungarians...

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/hungary-explains-huge-impact-total-failure-anti-russia-sanctions-europeans

...none of the antagonists (your perspective, pick any one!) wants peace...

...strength, power...violence is the order of the day...

...all states like Hungary will get is blown away by all sides.

This thing will get hotter, everybody excited to start tossing nukes.

 ...
Earlier anti Russian sanction destroyed lots of Ukrainian businesses not that anyone cared.

After banning Ukrainian sales to Russian customers other markets were closed to protect local businesses.

Watching these newer sanctions is like watching a car or train crash in slow motion. 100% predictable.
When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown

Online patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1132 on: November 11, 2022, 12:45:49 PM »

I had Garland Nixon on. Plain spoken. Retired cop. Big reader.
He recently said that US diplomacy is saying "nice doggy" until we can find a rock to kill the dog with, and Russia and China both know it. Ha! Funny guy.
When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown

Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1133 on: November 11, 2022, 01:23:02 PM »
H/T-WZ

Yorgi Bushnikov in Kyiv...

"More war comin'!"

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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1134 on: November 14, 2022, 09:13:41 AM »
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/surovikins-difficult-choice-kherson

Well, Big Serge is probably choosing the most logical reason for the Russian retreat back across the Dnieper in the Kherson Oblast...(side note, odd name, Big Serge...)...and I find it humorous he refers to Surovikin as General Armageddon

Anyway, things being fluid and action shifting to the North and Northeast...come spring I would not be surprised to hear Kherson once more being in play.

All sides committed here...the grind goes on...

Big Serge says Ares wants more blood...Ares or not, more blood there will be...
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1135 on: November 15, 2022, 12:13:47 PM »
"Today’s era must not be of war."
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/deep-division-g20-bid-produce-statement-condemning-russian-invasion

 ::laughonfloor::

I'm sure the Lavrov contribution will be likewise DOA for peaceful prospects...

 ::unknowncomic::

More impetus for global conflict...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/un-calls-russia-pay-war-reparations-breakdown-vote

...interesting how few pals, and what pals they are, Russia has...

...if anything they are losing the winning hearts and minds propaganda war...

...it's like the Soviet days all over again...

...and that pesky all-out throw-down question seems fully on track for a center ring show of shows...
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Online patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1136 on: November 15, 2022, 08:16:40 PM »
I did not follow the G20 thing.

Some of it depends on the audience. On a broader scale Lavrov got a hero's welcome in the so called global south. Blinken was really upset and stupidly said so. Made him look foolish. Africa remembers Russia in their support for national liberation back when and the west as colonizers. Could be all BS but that is what they remember. Lavrov took a victory lap through Africa

The Duran guys are both diplomats sons as I recall. I know Alex is from Cyprus and grew up in US, Mexico, and Russia. Hence their interest in diplomacy and disgust at current US children diplomats.  They have long admired Lavrov and recently Zacharova. Me too. They point out the former good diplomats around the world, including Canada long ago.

The Duran has long sold coffee mugs and Tshirts with We Lov Rov
The US finally sent an adult, former Russian ambassador Burns, to Istanbul.
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1137 on: November 16, 2022, 08:48:30 AM »
National liberation?  Is that what they call Soviets introducing Marxism?  Trading colonial imperialists for Marxist goons...liberation.  Ooh Kay...

And the poison is still wreaking havoc in the continent...

It's nice Lavrov has fanboyz...really, the ghost of Andrei Gromyko must be so incredulous...

Anywho...Herr Schwab still banging lecterns Kruschev-style and demanding "restructuring" ze veruld and introducing "stakeholder capitalism" (cough, "fascism!, cough)...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/wefs-klaus-schwab-gives-speech-g20-need-restructure-world

So, leftist totalitarianism...no different than centrist totalitarianism (fascism)...they just argue over how to spin the fact that its all about the elite using the peasants and middling bureaucrats in between!

More sanctions that won't amount to crap - https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/us-sanction-external-network-supplying-russia-military-tech

Another yawn-worthy development - RT Serbia - https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/serbia-under-fire-over-launch-rt-balkan-network

And, in war sh!t happens, in this case friendly fire on Poland - https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/futures-tumble-after-report-stray-rockets-hit-polish-town-near-ukraine-killing-two

Oops, sorry.

What a dull day...
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1138 on: November 16, 2022, 12:41:53 PM »
Jello-head JoeFraud impressing his, uhh, peers...

https://www.weaselzippers.us/487078-after-speaking-for-an-entire-minute-bumbling-biden-checks-mic-do-i-have-this-on/



I can just hear the chatter from Xi et al  (Attack America, now!)...

H/T's-WZ

 ::unknowncomic::

PS - Very good question...

https://twitter.com/WallStreetSilv/status/1592626555611926528

 ::hysterical::
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Online patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #1139 on: November 19, 2022, 11:35:19 AM »

He makes sense to me. He knows a lot of history and military history.
Right now near the end of #1 he tells of his grandfather home from WWI and was anti war after that.
He was involved with several wars including Yugoslavia and Iraq.

I found this playlist mostly about Ukraine war. 8 videos so far.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL20Ot3J1dJgG7XpqMJNa38houieHUYT9e
Straight Calls with Douglas Macgregor
When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown