Topic: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine

[patentlymn]

Nothing new, just more public now. Ukr must put up land for sale as a condition for loans?

https://youtu.be/zmreQ-K3Oek
 Zelenskyy Sold Ukraine To US Corporate? Kennedy's Nephew Adds To Russia Explosive Claim | World News
TIMES NOW

4.49M subscribers
 
516,441 views  Jan 18, 2024  #usnews #russiaukrainewar #johnfKennedy
Ukraine is already opening up for big investment, and hand-rubbing has been happening over a potential business bonanza. War-hit Ukraine might not look like a good financial investment, with no end in sight. Kyiv engaged BlackRock and JPMorgan in 2023 to help set up a fund to raise public capital. But has the Russia-Ukraine war created a massive profit opportunity for leading U.S companies?

[Libertas]

Hope they like owning ash...

[patentlymn]

From Avdeevka 2015 when people lived there. Says 90% want to join the DPR.

https://t.me/putingers_cat/8944
Forgotten footage of the way locals in Avdeevka protested the fortification of their town by NATO.

Whom was Ukraine protecting there, against whom?

[patentlymn]

From Avdeevka 2015 when people lived there. Says 90% want to join the DPR.

https://t.me/putingers_cat/8944
Forgotten footage of the way locals in Avdeevka protested the fortification of their town by NATO.

Whom was Ukraine protecting there, against whom?

A twitter version
https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1759326192488841349

[Libertas]

So...how about the Sudeten Germans?  Spoke German, German customs...after WWII the victorious allies annulled the German annexation and then at Potsdam the allies (including Russia!) forced all Germans out of their historical homeland...so, there is precedent for telling folks you do not like to GTFO of land within your borders even if you disagree with those borders...

And there are many other examples in history of forced relocations of people...

[Libertas]

And this...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/russia-says-nato-troops-disguised-mercenaries-control-air-defenses-ukraine

...isn't much different than Russians in North Vietnam...

Which is why nobody but one General is popping off about it...merely we know you know we know whuppty doo.

[patentlymn]

US forces manning the sophisticated weapons like Himars have been speculated about for a long time. Too much training time required.
After WWII ethnic Germans were forced out of many countries including Czech and the Baltics.
Russia imported lots of German farmers to the Volga region long ago to improve Russian agriculture. They had some self governance and spoke German.
I recall there were 30 French killed in the hotel they stayed at.
The Kiev govt said there were no military there then some local said that was BS so they arrested him. Headlines reversed the times and reported he gave away their position before the attack rather than after it was blown up.

[patentlymn]

Very recently Kiev hit Donetsk city again.  155 mm shells hit a pizza parlor and a cross walk. One Himar hit on one side of a library and one on the opposite side.  I think it missed the building proper and blew out the windows. I note the complete lack of US MSM reporting from areas under Russian control. 

All these weapons are from US. I recall the US said that US has to approve all Himars targets. IMO the US is likely operating the Himars. The Himars  are high precision weapons.

One theory is that Kiev wants to provoke Russia to reply in kind to regain sympathy from the west. Russia could destroy downtown Kiev. Back before the 2022 invasion I noted a great deal of spite from the 'ethnically superior' Kiev faction.
I linked to the library crater.
https://youtu.be/VeGqBJSlV3E?t=833

https://youtu.be/VeGqBJSlV3E
 Patrick Lancaster: LIVE from Donetsk - Russia/Ukraine
Judge Napolitano - Judging Freedom
296K subscribers
39,736 views  Streamed live 9 hours ago  #nato #ukraine #ukrainewar
LIVE REPORT:  Ukraine uses NATO / Western supplied weapons to Hammer the civilian population of center Donetsk. Several injured and killed as Ukraine fires western supplied HIMARS rockets and 155mm artillery shells.

All on the tail of Russia making big gains in the capture of the city of Avdeevka (a suburb of Donetsk)

[Libertas]

It can and will only get worse...unless a miracle happens and Trump actually makes it back into the White House and before the current imbeciles don't start WWIII and/or CW2...

[patentlymn]

I wondered why Russia did not pump weapons into, say, drug gangs inside the US or MX? US funded the Chechens who bombed Moscow and killed hundreds of Russian school children. Doing such things are well within US published doctrines.

If I were Russia  would supply the Houthis with weapons good enough to sink US or UK ships in the ME. UK has been supplying or even operating lots of surface maritime drones in the black sea.

Plus, after Gaza, there is  a surplus of orphans, widowers and widows bent on revenge against US.

[patentlymn]

I had this on this early AM trying to fall back asleep. This guy taught and lived in Lviv for 5 years.
In his opinion, the Ukr diaspora organizations in the west were taken over by ultranationalists. Then many returned after 1991.

Very detailed.
https://youtu.be/5C7DE2KFJHs
328,355 views  Apr 5, 2022  Rania Khalek Dispatches
For those who just discovered Ukraine two months ago, the fact that Ukrainian nationalism has been dangerously intertwined with fascism might sound like Russian propaganda. But is it?

How powerful is the Ukrainian far right? Are they really linked to Nazis? Why is the corporate-owned media denying this?

To place this war and the Ukrainian far right in its historical context, Rania Khalek was joined by Tarik Cyril Amar, a historian from Germany, who is currently associate professor of history at Koc University in Istanbul, working on Russian, Ukrainian, and generally East European history.

[Libertas]

I wondered why Russia did not pump weapons into, say, drug gangs inside the US or MX? US funded the Chechens who bombed Moscow and killed hundreds of Russian school children. Doing such things are well within US published doctrines.

If I were Russia  would supply the Houthis with weapons good enough to sink US or UK ships in the ME. UK has been supplying or even operating lots of surface maritime drones in the black sea.

Plus, after Gaza, there is  a surplus of orphans, widowers and widows bent on revenge against US.

Pretty sure FJB let them in too if you read the demographics of the invaders...so yet more proof this rogue regime is doing Putin's bidding...

[Libertas]

I had this on this early AM trying to fall back asleep. This guy taught and lived in Lviv for 5 years.
In his opinion, the Ukr diaspora organizations in the west were taken over by ultranationalists. Then many returned after 1991.

Very detailed.
https://youtu.be/5C7DE2KFJHs
328,355 views  Apr 5, 2022  Rania Khalek Dispatches
For those who just discovered Ukraine two months ago, the fact that Ukrainian nationalism has been dangerously intertwined with fascism might sound like Russian propaganda. But is it?

How powerful is the Ukrainian far right? Are they really linked to Nazis? Why is the corporate-owned media denying this?

To place this war and the Ukrainian far right in its historical context, Rania Khalek was joined by Tarik Cyril Amar, a historian from Germany, who is currently associate professor of history at Koc University in Istanbul, working on Russian, Ukrainian, and generally East European history.

Well, I had a pen pal in Lviv from mid-80's through the 90's and not once did he mention nazis, fascists or any outsider influence...I suspect most of that if it existed was centered further East...he was a commercial pilot flying medium-sized cargo planes...lost track of him and I moved about the same time...suspect he and his wife probably fled to Poland or something when this mess began...didn't seem the lay down his life for nothing kind of guy to me...

[patentlymn]

I had this on this early AM trying to fall back asleep. This guy taught and lived in Lviv for 5 years.
In his opinion, the Ukr diaspora organizations in the west were taken over by ultranationalists. Then many returned after 1991.

Very detailed.
https://youtu.be/5C7DE2KFJHs
328,355 views  Apr 5, 2022  Rania Khalek Dispatches
For those who just discovered Ukraine two months ago, the fact that Ukrainian nationalism has been dangerously intertwined with fascism might sound like Russian propaganda. But is it?

How powerful is the Ukrainian far right? Are they really linked to Nazis? Why is the corporate-owned media denying this?

To place this war and the Ukrainian far right in its historical context, Rania Khalek was joined by Tarik Cyril Amar, a historian from Germany, who is currently associate professor of history at Koc University in Istanbul, working on Russian, Ukrainian, and generally East European history.

Well, I had a pen pal in Lviv from mid-80's through the 90's and not once did he mention nazis, fascists or any outsider influence...I suspect most of that if it existed was centered further East...he was a commercial pilot flying medium-sized cargo planes...lost track of him and I moved about the same time...suspect he and his wife probably fled to Poland or something when this mess began...didn't seem the lay down his life for nothing kind of guy to me...

The professor said things got far right in the 2000s. He got into many details as to the various parties and the AZOV movement vs the AZOV battalion vs other groups. He said that AZOV infiltrated many military groups and networked well. He said they were very good at attaining "cultural hegemony" in infusing the NAZI culture/ideology  into society.
Like I said, complicated and very long. I always wondered why NAZI symbols are often illegal in other countries but not uncommon in Ukraine compared to other places.

[Libertas]

I had this on this early AM trying to fall back asleep. This guy taught and lived in Lviv for 5 years.
In his opinion, the Ukr diaspora organizations in the west were taken over by ultranationalists. Then many returned after 1991.

Very detailed.
https://youtu.be/5C7DE2KFJHs
328,355 views  Apr 5, 2022  Rania Khalek Dispatches
For those who just discovered Ukraine two months ago, the fact that Ukrainian nationalism has been dangerously intertwined with fascism might sound like Russian propaganda. But is it?

How powerful is the Ukrainian far right? Are they really linked to Nazis? Why is the corporate-owned media denying this?

To place this war and the Ukrainian far right in its historical context, Rania Khalek was joined by Tarik Cyril Amar, a historian from Germany, who is currently associate professor of history at Koc University in Istanbul, working on Russian, Ukrainian, and generally East European history.

Well, I had a pen pal in Lviv from mid-80's through the 90's and not once did he mention nazis, fascists or any outsider influence...I suspect most of that if it existed was centered further East...he was a commercial pilot flying medium-sized cargo planes...lost track of him and I moved about the same time...suspect he and his wife probably fled to Poland or something when this mess began...didn't seem the lay down his life for nothing kind of guy to me...

The professor said things got far right in the 2000s. He got into many details as to the various parties and the AZOV movement vs the AZOV battalion vs other groups. He said that AZOV infiltrated many military groups and networked well. He said they were very good at attaining "cultural hegemony" in infusing the NAZI culture/ideology  into society.
Like I said, complicated and very long. I always wondered why NAZI symbols are often illegal in other countries but not uncommon in Ukraine compared to other places.

Well, I have a hard time believing this was organic in Ukraine, especially the Western areas...I just don't believe it.  I have no idea what was going on in the East...when Hitler invaded "Russia" this area was heavily impacted as Hitler wanted to drive to the North and sack cities all the way to Moscow and he wanted to drive South to get Romanian oil and for the latter they had to go through Ukraine...can't imagine Nazi sympathizers just laid low, bred and passed on their ideology to succeeding generations.  Sounds way to purposely planted to me and for all I know anybody could have done it for a myriad of reasons but probably aimed at the same thing - to destabilize the area for future exploitation by somebody else...fodder for some power center to use directly or for exploitation and propaganda.  Not seeing any evidence of genesis and purpose I remain highly skeptical of any ever-present organic source.

[Libertas]

Now, this looks real and in-line with the panic button being repeatedly hammered...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/zelensky-opens-ukraines-national-guard-foreigners-amid-severe-manpower-crisis

...throw yourselves into the meatgrinder and prove how sick of living you are...

 

[patentlymn]

The bold parts sound familiar to some videos I saw about 1918 Ukr attempts at 4 different nations. Especially "romantic individuals."  RU people on videos say they are the same as Ukr and Ukr people on videos say are almost a different race. The whole Ukr nationalism seems recent and kinda fake. They are hopelessly intermingled. Some professor gave a history and said the nationalism really took off in the 2000s.

https://t.me/putingers_cat/9008
Here is a link (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/sites/default/files/public_file/
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/sites/default/files/public_file/2023/1948%20Policy%20Planning%20Staff%20paper%20re%20Ukraine.pdf
2023/1948%20Policy%20Planning%20Staff%20paper%20re%20Ukraine.pdf) to a Policy Paper on Ukraine of the US State Department from 1948, archived at the Foreign Affairs website. Fascinating reading, how times have changed.

A couple of excerpts:

There is no clear dividing line between Russia and the Ukraine. and it would be impossible to establish one. The cities in Ukrainian territory have been predominantly Russian and Jewish. The real basis of “Ukrainianism” is the feeling of “difference” produced by a specific peasant dialect and by minor differences of custom and folklore throughout the country districts. The political agitation on the surface is largely the work of a few romantic intellectuals, who have little concept of the responsibilities of government.

…The economy of Ukraine is inextricably intertwined with that of Russia as a whole. There has never been any economic separation since the territory was conquered, from the nomadic Tatars and developed for purposes of a sedentary population. To attempt to carve it out of the Russian economy and set it up as something separate would be as artificial and destructive as an attempt to separate the Corn Belt, including the Great Lakes industrial area, from the economy of the United States…

…the people who speak the Ukrainian dialect have been split, like those who speak the White Russian dialect, by a division which in eastern Europe has always been the real mark of nationality: namely, religion. If any real border can be drawn in the Ukraine, it should logically be the border between the areas which traditionally give religious allegiance to the Eastern Church and those who give it to the Church of Rome…

[patentlymn]

...

Well, I have a hard time believing this was organic in Ukraine, especially the Western areas...I just don't believe it.  I have no idea what was going on in the East...when Hitler invaded "Russia" this area was heavily impacted as Hitler wanted to drive to the North and sack cities all the way to Moscow and he wanted to drive South to get Romanian oil and for the latter they had to go through Ukraine...can't imagine Nazi sympathizers just laid low, bred and passed on their ideology to succeeding generations.  Sounds way to purposely planted to me and for all I know anybody could have done it for a myriad of reasons but probably aimed at the same thing - to destabilize the area for future exploitation by somebody else...fodder for some power center to use directly or for exploitation and propaganda.  Not seeing any evidence of genesis and purpose I remain highly skeptical of any ever-present organic source.

Russia hatred was organic in the west. The prof said that the NAZI stuff took off in the 2000s thanks to mostly the Ukr diaspora from the west whose organizations were taken over by far right in the west. This was mostly not a continuation from WWII as Ritter said.

Diaspora are a time capsule. The preserve the old country they left. E.g. some towns in WI celebrate Norway around 1850 and dress like that. That amuses modern  Norwegians who find it goofy. Ukr NAZIs who fled to Canada in 1945 returned as the same. There are some places in the US that have statues of Stepan Bandera.

[Libertas]

The bold parts sound familiar to some videos I saw about 1918 Ukr attempts at 4 different nations. Especially "romantic individuals."  RU people on videos say they are the same as Ukr and Ukr people on videos say are almost a different race. The whole Ukr nationalism seems recent and kinda fake. They are hopelessly intermingled. Some professor gave a history and said the nationalism really took off in the 2000s.

https://t.me/putingers_cat/9008
Here is a link (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/sites/default/files/public_file/
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/sites/default/files/public_file/2023/1948%20Policy%20Planning%20Staff%20paper%20re%20Ukraine.pdf
2023/1948%20Policy%20Planning%20Staff%20paper%20re%20Ukraine.pdf) to a Policy Paper on Ukraine of the US State Department from 1948, archived at the Foreign Affairs website. Fascinating reading, how times have changed.

A couple of excerpts:

There is no clear dividing line between Russia and the Ukraine. and it would be impossible to establish one. The cities in Ukrainian territory have been predominantly Russian and Jewish. The real basis of “Ukrainianism” is the feeling of “difference” produced by a specific peasant dialect and by minor differences of custom and folklore throughout the country districts. The political agitation on the surface is largely the work of a few romantic intellectuals, who have little concept of the responsibilities of government.

…The economy of Ukraine is inextricably intertwined with that of Russia as a whole. There has never been any economic separation since the territory was conquered, from the nomadic Tatars and developed for purposes of a sedentary population. To attempt to carve it out of the Russian economy and set it up as something separate would be as artificial and destructive as an attempt to separate the Corn Belt, including the Great Lakes industrial area, from the economy of the United States…

…the people who speak the Ukrainian dialect have been split, like those who speak the White Russian dialect, by a division which in eastern Europe has always been the real mark of nationality: namely, religion. If any real border can be drawn in the Ukraine, it should logically be the border between the areas which traditionally give religious allegiance to the Eastern Church and those who give it to the Church of Rome…

Intellectuals...  Snort!

As for "Catholic" there are sub-groups there...but bottom line you are saying a division pretty much following the Dnieper...

But doesn't matter...under all the current actors all that will happen is the meatgrinder goes on...

[Libertas]

...

Well, I have a hard time believing this was organic in Ukraine, especially the Western areas...I just don't believe it.  I have no idea what was going on in the East...when Hitler invaded "Russia" this area was heavily impacted as Hitler wanted to drive to the North and sack cities all the way to Moscow and he wanted to drive South to get Romanian oil and for the latter they had to go through Ukraine...can't imagine Nazi sympathizers just laid low, bred and passed on their ideology to succeeding generations.  Sounds way to purposely planted to me and for all I know anybody could have done it for a myriad of reasons but probably aimed at the same thing - to destabilize the area for future exploitation by somebody else...fodder for some power center to use directly or for exploitation and propaganda.  Not seeing any evidence of genesis and purpose I remain highly skeptical of any ever-present organic source.

Russia hatred was organic in the west. The prof said that the NAZI stuff took off in the 2000s thanks to mostly the Ukr diaspora from the west whose organizations were taken over by far right in the west. This was mostly not a continuation from WWII as Ritter said.

Diaspora are a time capsule. The preserve the old country they left. E.g. some towns in WI celebrate Norway around 1850 and dress like that. That amuses modern  Norwegians who find it goofy. Ukr NAZIs who fled to Canada in 1945 returned as the same. There are some places in the US that have statues of Stepan Bandera.

Well, Bandera gained more fame in death than he ever achieved in life...was always in the fringe, most people in "Ukraine" ignorant of him...but, since Poland & Germany principally did the same I guess that is where the seeds of fascism came from...and if some ignorant desperate fools chose to elevate him as a national hero, well, not like others still regard their past despots well - Russians still look fondly on its past rulers, Mongols still honor The Great Kahn, etc etc...people can argue they chose a poor hero, personally I would have gone with Taras Shevchenko & Mykhailo Drahomanov for someone "modern"...but whatever.  A people so dominated by others have few "nationalist" heroes.  And if one wanted to make a name for themselves they had to pick a neighboring host.  The most famous military leader from central Ukraine with ethnic Ukranian Cossak blood was Russian Imperial Field Marshal Ivan Fyodorovich Paskevich who served in the Napoleonic Wars through the Crimean War of 1853-1856, though an injury forced him to relive himself of command and he dies in 1870 and his line and title as a Count died when his only son died in 1903.  Can't really pick a loyalist to Russia as your national hero.  Such is the misery of an oppressed people never allowed to truly be independent and unmolested.