Author Topic: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine  (Read 88632 times)

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Online patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2120 on: March 29, 2024, 12:34:42 PM »


IMO Trump could not make any friendly moves towards Russia thanks to Russiagate.
I had some political analyst on. In his opinion the US does not do diplomacy period. Just threats.
Russia did a lot of diplomacy in lining up allies or at least neutrals before and after the SMO.

I heard some story about Dulles, JFK, and the bay of pigs. It was called "mousetrapping."

JFK as told that even Eisenhower had OKed the invasion of Cuba. JFK was told by Dulles that the Cuban people would rise up and overthrow Castro. In fact, Castro was popular then with most. JFK did not notice that CIA analysts were kept from him, only the ops people were included.

JFK told Dulles that in no case would US troops be sent in the invaders were trapped on the beach. They were trapped on the beach. Dulles wrote that if this happened JFK would be forced, "mouse trapped" into sending US troops. He was wrong and got fired maybe?

This was from Ray McGovern. He was concerned that US or NATO might be mouse trapped into sending troops into Ukraine after things got even worse.

Some other analyst, maybe Col Davies, said he thought the US needed a huge failure in order to re-orient our military strategy. That is what I think. Maybe a carrier or two sunk. Some fear if that happened US would use nukes.






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Online patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2121 on: March 29, 2024, 12:57:47 PM »

Huh? i wonder if true?

https://t.me/ukraine_watch/19495
🇺🇦🇧🇬The Ukrainian Army launched artillery strikes on a Bulgarian settlement in Ukraine, using munitions of Bulgarian manufacture.

The incident occurred in a settlement within the city of Aleshki, Kherson region, as reported by Igor Telegin, a deputy of the regional parliament.

120-mm mortar shells have been targeting Aleshki. In this settlement, where Bulgarians reside, homes are being struck by these Bulgarian-manufactured shells,
 he disclosed.

?? Shell markings indicate that the 120-mm fragmentation rounds were produced in 2016 at the 'Arsenal' factory in Bulgaria, according to Alexey Burlakov, a spokesperson for the separate volunteer reconnaissance battalion named after V.F. Margelov.

In part of Kherson still controlled by the Ukrainian Army, the resistance members discovered ammunition crates, whose coding and markings also suggest Bulgarian origin. These crates were likely smuggled into Ukraine through Odessa via 'grey' import schemes.

?? The West, including the Bulgarian authorities, have remained silent on the Ukrainian Army targeting ethnic minorities.

Acknowledging this situation would mean admitting that Ukrainian forces are inadvertently causing harm to their own Bulgarian compatriots with Bulgarian-produced arms.
When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown

Online patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2122 on: March 29, 2024, 01:00:57 PM »

this might be the source of the ISIS-K not likely being the planners of the Moscow Attack.

https://youtu.be/JW-GB8ZgQc8
What Did The U.S. Know Ahead of Moscow Terror Attack Claimed by ISIS-K? w/ Mark Sleboda


   
 

   
   

   
 
77,657 views  Mar 25, 2024
Nearly 140 people were murdered in a horrific terrorist attack on the Crocus City Hall in the Moscow region last week, with the Biden Admin immediately claiming Ukraine wasn't responsible, and that it must have been the elusive group ISIS-K...

International Relations and Security Analyst Mark Sleboda noted that ISIS-K has a history of being accused of being a CIA front, as it fights the same groups Washington is fighting—but never the U.S. Therefore, some have suggested the Russian government views ISIS-K as a "fig leaf of plausible deniability" in this attack, and a cover for Kiev.

In his latest comments, Russian President Putin said they know the attack was carried out by radical Islamists, but now they want to know who orchestrated it, saying, “We know who carried out the attack. We want to know who ordered it.”
When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown

Online patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2123 on: March 29, 2024, 01:42:59 PM »


From the NYT.
https://t.me/inessas1992/6468
NYT confirms U.S omitted information known to them (https://t.me/inessas1992/6383?single), regarding Moscow terror attack.

That's after Russia was first to send condolences gift post 9/11, as well as advise of impending Boston marathon attack (2013.)

Quote
The adversarial relationship between Washington and Moscow prevented U.S. officials from sharing any information about the plot beyond what was necessary, out of fear Russian authorities might learn their intelligence sources (themselves?) or methods.
In reality, the US has used ISIS as an armed proxy for years to advance US foreign policy objectives, and had everything to gain from the attack being successful - making Moscow look weak/incompetent - even the NYT in its article is helping shape that narrative despite admitting US omissions.
When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown

Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2124 on: April 01, 2024, 08:44:53 AM »


IMO Trump could not make any friendly moves towards Russia thanks to Russiagate.
I had some political analyst on. In his opinion the US does not do diplomacy period. Just threats.
Russia did a lot of diplomacy in lining up allies or at least neutrals before and after the SMO.

I heard some story about Dulles, JFK, and the bay of pigs. It was called "mousetrapping."

JFK as told that even Eisenhower had OKed the invasion of Cuba. JFK was told by Dulles that the Cuban people would rise up and overthrow Castro. In fact, Castro was popular then with most. JFK did not notice that CIA analysts were kept from him, only the ops people were included.

JFK told Dulles that in no case would US troops be sent in the invaders were trapped on the beach. They were trapped on the beach. Dulles wrote that if this happened JFK would be forced, "mouse trapped" into sending US troops. He was wrong and got fired maybe?

This was from Ray McGovern. He was concerned that US or NATO might be mouse trapped into sending troops into Ukraine after things got even worse.

Some other analyst, maybe Col Davies, said he thought the US needed a huge failure in order to re-orient our military strategy. That is what I think. Maybe a carrier or two sunk. Some fear if that happened US would use nukes.

So, Putin handcuffed and could not make proposals?  I thought the guy was supposed to be smart?  Getting stuck with FJB is working wonders for him...

 ::)

As for Dulles, he got his revenge Nov '63...

And thus the DeepState became ascendant...

And there is no mouse-trapping Trump...
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2125 on: April 01, 2024, 08:50:43 AM »

this might be the source of the ISIS-K not likely being the planners of the Moscow Attack.

https://youtu.be/JW-GB8ZgQc8
What Did The U.S. Know Ahead of Moscow Terror Attack Claimed by ISIS-K? w/ Mark Sleboda


   
 

   
   

   
 
77,657 views  Mar 25, 2024
Nearly 140 people were murdered in a horrific terrorist attack on the Crocus City Hall in the Moscow region last week, with the Biden Admin immediately claiming Ukraine wasn't responsible, and that it must have been the elusive group ISIS-K...

International Relations and Security Analyst Mark Sleboda noted that ISIS-K has a history of being accused of being a CIA front, as it fights the same groups Washington is fighting—but never the U.S. Therefore, some have suggested the Russian government views ISIS-K as a "fig leaf of plausible deniability" in this attack, and a cover for Kiev.

In his latest comments, Russian President Putin said they know the attack was carried out by radical Islamists, but now they want to know who orchestrated it, saying, “We know who carried out the attack. We want to know who ordered it.”

They believe it to be, swell...  This gives the clownshow more credit than they deserve...  Telling me a bunch of corrupt clowns didn't slip up anywhere and leave evidence of this assumed relationship?  The same idiots who said WMD's in Iraq and all we got was empty buildings?  Doesn't smell right to me.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2126 on: April 01, 2024, 08:52:56 AM »


From the NYT.
https://t.me/inessas1992/6468
NYT confirms U.S omitted information known to them (https://t.me/inessas1992/6383?single), regarding Moscow terror attack.

That's after Russia was first to send condolences gift post 9/11, as well as advise of impending Boston marathon attack (2013.)

Quote
The adversarial relationship between Washington and Moscow prevented U.S. officials from sharing any information about the plot beyond what was necessary, out of fear Russian authorities might learn their intelligence sources (themselves?) or methods.
In reality, the US has used ISIS as an armed proxy for years to advance US foreign policy objectives, and had everything to gain from the attack being successful - making Moscow look weak/incompetent - even the NYT in its article is helping shape that narrative despite admitting US omissions.

Did they mentions how Arab Spring Barry and the Bloody Bitch of Benghazi Hitlery created ISIS?  Or that they could not control all the factions thereof once the bottle's seal was broken?
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Online patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2127 on: April 01, 2024, 01:26:58 PM »
...
So, Putin handcuffed and could not make proposals?  I thought the guy was supposed to be smart?  Getting stuck with FJB is working wonders for him...

 ::)

As for Dulles, he got his revenge Nov '63...

And thus the DeepState became ascendant...

And there is no mouse-trapping Trump...

Putin/Russian govt did make proposals. There were proposals in Dec 2021 and Jan and/or Feb 2022. I do not know the contents.  Jeffrey Sachs had enough pull to get his calls to WH returned in this time period. He was told that the US had zero interest in negotiations with Russia. Then there were the Mar/Apr 2022 negotiations torpedoed by US/UK.

There were the Minsk negotiations going back to maybe 2015. Recently France, Germany, and UK(?) leaders said they were a  ruse to buy time to arm Ukr. IMO it was a big mistake to reveal this.

The more I learn the more I think the US relly wanted  war with Russia using Ukr. The US 'knew' that the sanctions would cripple RU,  Then would come regime change. Also the RU army was supposed to collapse. With a little luck, Russia could be sold off for parts.
When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown

Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2128 on: April 01, 2024, 01:38:49 PM »
...
So, Putin handcuffed and could not make proposals?  I thought the guy was supposed to be smart?  Getting stuck with FJB is working wonders for him...

 ::)

As for Dulles, he got his revenge Nov '63...

And thus the DeepState became ascendant...

And there is no mouse-trapping Trump...

Putin/Russian govt did make proposals. There were proposals in Dec 2021 and Jan and/or Feb 2022. I do not know the contents.  Jeffrey Sachs had enough pull to get his calls to WH returned in this time period. He was told that the US had zero interest in negotiations with Russia. Then there were the Mar/Apr 2022 negotiations torpedoed by US/UK.

There were the Minsk negotiations going back to maybe 2015. Recently France, Germany, and UK(?) leaders said they were a  ruse to buy time to arm Ukr. IMO it was a big mistake to reveal this.

The more I learn the more I think the US relly wanted  war with Russia using Ukr. The US 'knew' that the sanctions would cripple RU,  Then would come regime change. Also the RU army was supposed to collapse. With a little luck, Russia could be sold off for parts.

Right, zip zero nada by them under Trump...

So, hindsight shows Putin blew it...
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Online patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2129 on: April 01, 2024, 02:43:30 PM »

I recall Russia tracking down the bomb killer of Daria Dugan. It was very rapid with videos and photos of her at various locations including entry and exit of a car w various license plates. My impression was that they also used cell phone data.It seemed much faster than possible in the US.

I would expect that Russia rapidly used cell phone data on the recent terror attack. That provides more suspects who are likely tortured and their phones are used to provide more links.

When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown

Online patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2130 on: April 01, 2024, 04:49:10 PM »


This is one version of Bucha.
https://t.me/EurasianChoice/36249

It is the end of March: this means that Ukrainians and Westerners will be pushing their "Bucha remembrance" ritual. The only reason this is still possible is, ironically, the fact that no one remembers what even happened there. A very short recap.

On February 27th, 2022, RuAF entered Bucha, a Kiev suburb. The same day, Kiev issued a statement urging local residents not to comply with Russian efforts to evacuate civilians. By early March, the town was under RuAF control. On March 31st, Russian forces withdrew from Bucha due to a preliminary agreement that had been reached by the Russian and Ukrainian negotiators. Ukrainian forces entered the town the next day (not without claiming a victorious battle). On April 2nd, the Ukrainians started reporting that a "massacre" had taken place.

Huge efforts were undertaken to "prove" that a "massacre" had taken place in which RuAF had murdered >500 civilians. This was part of a coordinated campaign to legitimize Kiev pulling out of diplomatic negotiations and refusing to honor the preliminary agreement.

This propaganda campaign worked in two ways: 1) by inflating the civilian death toll; 2) by attributing all deaths in Bucha to killings by RuAF.

By now, it is common knowledge that RuAF entered Ukraine with clown school "Don't fire unless fired upon" Rules of Engagement and took unnecessary casualties due to this. There are several distinct groups of casualties that were grouped together for the Bucha story:

1) A group of about a dozen "Territorial Defence" fighters who were executed by RuAF. This has been documented by Western media outlets who were given access to military intelligence and presented as "civilians" being killed. They were captured and disarmed and then released to their homes. They took up arms again (from prepared weapons caches) and attacked Russian forces. They were captured again and this time killed. I admit that this is a grey matter and could warrant a war crime investigation, but they weren't wearing any uniforms/insignia and had guaranteed to return to civilian life, so it wasn't unreasonable for Russian troops to treat them as unlawful combatants. In any case, it's a huge stretch to call these people "civilians".

2) Local civilians who were killed by Ukrainian shelling. Russian artillery did not fire upon Bucha since February 27th because the town was effectively under Russian control and clearing operations were ongoing. Every artillery shell that fell on Bucha after this date was Ukrainian. Several dozen Bucha residents - a majority of the civilian casualties - were killed by this shelling, including with flechette rounds that are not used by the Russian army, but have been used by the AFU in Donbass since 2014. I've yet to hear a coherent response to the question "Who was firing artillery at Bucha while it was full of Russians?".

3) Local civilians who were executed by Ukrainian forces for "collaboration". Ukrainian and Western media published celebratory articles about "purging Russian collaborators" in Bucha, with the definition of "collaboration" including receiving food and water. We've all seen the pictures of tied-up dead civilians wearing white armbands to identify themselves as civilians to the Russian forces. We've seen the video posted by Sergey Korotkikh, a Russian Neo-Nazi who joined the Azov Battalion in 2014, in which Azov soldiers discuss "shooting people without blue armbands", and voices can be heard in the background pleading for their lives. This was filmed after RuAF had left Bucha. It is hard to estimate the # of people who were killed this way.

All the people described in 1)-3) were declared to have been victims of a "massacre" committed by RuAF, and then the number was doubled or tripled (or more). It was a disgraceful propaganda campaign with the sole purpose of providing legitimacy for Zelensky's refusal of the most beneficial peace deal Kiev was ever gonna get, and the hopeless NPCs who still speak of those made-up events as historical fact barely even deserve to be argued with.
When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown

Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2131 on: April 02, 2024, 08:18:07 AM »

I recall Russia tracking down the bomb killer of Daria Dugan. It was very rapid with videos and photos of her at various locations including entry and exit of a car w various license plates. My impression was that they also used cell phone data.It seemed much faster than possible in the US.

I would expect that Russia rapidly used cell phone data on the recent terror attack. That provides more suspects who are likely tortured and their phones are used to provide more links.

And proves they are harvesting data just like everybody else...
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2132 on: April 02, 2024, 08:22:15 AM »
[noae]


This is one version of Bucha.
https://t.me/EurasianChoice/36249

It is the end of March: this means that Ukrainians and Westerners will be pushing their "Bucha remembrance" ritual. The only reason this is still possible is, ironically, the fact that no one remembers what even happened there. A very short recap.

On February 27th, 2022, RuAF entered Bucha, a Kiev suburb. The same day, Kiev issued a statement urging local residents not to comply with Russian efforts to evacuate civilians. By early March, the town was under RuAF control. On March 31st, Russian forces withdrew from Bucha due to a preliminary agreement that had been reached by the Russian and Ukrainian negotiators. Ukrainian forces entered the town the next day (not without claiming a victorious battle). On April 2nd, the Ukrainians started reporting that a "massacre" had taken place.

Huge efforts were undertaken to "prove" that a "massacre" had taken place in which RuAF had murdered >500 civilians. This was part of a coordinated campaign to legitimize Kiev pulling out of diplomatic negotiations and refusing to honor the preliminary agreement.

This propaganda campaign worked in two ways: 1) by inflating the civilian death toll; 2) by attributing all deaths in Bucha to killings by RuAF.

By now, it is common knowledge that RuAF entered Ukraine with clown school "Don't fire unless fired upon" Rules of Engagement and took unnecessary casualties due to this. There are several distinct groups of casualties that were grouped together for the Bucha story:

1) A group of about a dozen "Territorial Defence" fighters who were executed by RuAF. This has been documented by Western media outlets who were given access to military intelligence and presented as "civilians" being killed. They were captured and disarmed and then released to their homes. They took up arms again (from prepared weapons caches) and attacked Russian forces. They were captured again and this time killed. I admit that this is a grey matter and could warrant a war crime investigation, but they weren't wearing any uniforms/insignia and had guaranteed to return to civilian life, so it wasn't unreasonable for Russian troops to treat them as unlawful combatants. In any case, it's a huge stretch to call these people "civilians".

2) Local civilians who were killed by Ukrainian shelling. Russian artillery did not fire upon Bucha since February 27th because the town was effectively under Russian control and clearing operations were ongoing. Every artillery shell that fell on Bucha after this date was Ukrainian. Several dozen Bucha residents - a majority of the civilian casualties - were killed by this shelling, including with flechette rounds that are not used by the Russian army, but have been used by the AFU in Donbass since 2014. I've yet to hear a coherent response to the question "Who was firing artillery at Bucha while it was full of Russians?".

3) Local civilians who were executed by Ukrainian forces for "collaboration". Ukrainian and Western media published celebratory articles about "purging Russian collaborators" in Bucha, with the definition of "collaboration" including receiving food and water. We've all seen the pictures of tied-up dead civilians wearing white armbands to identify themselves as civilians to the Russian forces. We've seen the video posted by Sergey Korotkikh, a Russian Neo-Nazi who joined the Azov Battalion in 2014, in which Azov soldiers discuss "shooting people without blue armbands", and voices can be heard in the background pleading for their lives. This was filmed after RuAF had left Bucha. It is hard to estimate the # of people who were killed this way.

All the people described in 1)-3) were declared to have been victims of a "massacre" committed by RuAF, and then the number was doubled or tripled (or more). It was a disgraceful propaganda campaign with the sole purpose of providing legitimacy for Zelensky's refusal of the most beneficial peace deal Kiev was ever gonna get, and the hopeless NPCs who still speak of those made-up events as historical fact barely even deserve to be argued with.
[/noae]

Smells funny from the start?  Who negotiates with an invading force?  Who are these so-called "negotiators"?  Probably one big fat he said she said...

But Russia deceived from the start, said their exercise was just an exercise not a prelude to an invasion, which turned out to be false...

Non angels on any side...
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2133 on: April 02, 2024, 09:10:10 AM »
From Special Military Operation (which they said last week is now a war) to special holding facilities (camps)...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/russia-mass-deportations-muslim-migrants-surge-after-moscow-terror-attack

I guess the word special makes it so much better, LOL...
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Online patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2134 on: April 02, 2024, 01:22:21 PM »
...
Smells funny from the start?  Who negotiates with an invading force?  Who are these so-called "negotiators"?  Probably one big fat he said she said...

But Russia deceived from the start, said their exercise was just an exercise not a prelude to an invasion, which turned out to be false...

Non angels on any side...

Kiev and Moscow were negotiating early on after the SMO started. Judge Nap has former diplomats on. Alasatir Crooke, chas Freeman, Matlock, others.
The consensus is that Russia wanted to force Kiev to the negotiating table and Russia did not have near enough troops to take Kiev. Kiev and Russia agreed to tentative terms and Kiev asked Russia to withdraw troops from around Kiev as a show of good faith. Russia withdrew. These details and others have been confirmed by some Israeli diplomat and very recently even a Kiev diplomat.

Then Boris Johnson came to town bearing instruction from US and told Kiev to back off from the agreement, maybe in Istanbul. There were also threats that US would not be guarantor to any such agreement and would pull funds.. This has been widely backed up by higher ups in the loop.

I posted because I had never seen a concise version of Bucha and some details were new to me.

After RU withdrew forces from Kiev US and/or Kiev said the troops left because they had been repelled by Kiev military.
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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2135 on: April 02, 2024, 04:28:40 PM »
Ukr FPV drones attacking RU tracked drones having automatic grade launchers. Likely on his twitter also. I have  hard time searching for things on twitter..


https://t.me/myLordBebo/26715
🇷🇺🇺🇦🚨?? WOW: Battle between drones and robots.

The Ukrainian military claims that the Russians have begun to use ground-based robotic platforms with an AGS-17 automatic grenade launcher near Avdiivka.

The 47th Brigade posted a video of these platforms being attacked by FPV drones.
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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2137 on: April 02, 2024, 04:47:26 PM »
...
Smells funny from the start?  Who negotiates with an invading force?  Who are these so-called "negotiators"?  Probably one big fat he said she said...

But Russia deceived from the start, said their exercise was just an exercise not a prelude to an invasion, which turned out to be false...

Non angels on any side...

Kiev and Moscow were negotiating early on after the SMO started. Judge Nap has former diplomats on. Alasatir Crooke, chas Freeman, Matlock, others.
The consensus is that Russia wanted to force Kiev to the negotiating table and Russia did not have near enough troops to take Kiev. Kiev and Russia agreed to tentative terms and Kiev asked Russia to withdraw troops from around Kiev as a show of good faith. Russia withdrew. These details and others have been confirmed by some Israeli diplomat and very recently even a Kiev diplomat.

Then Boris Johnson came to town bearing instruction from US and told Kiev to back off from the agreement, maybe in Istanbul. There were also threats that US would not be guarantor to any such agreement and would pull funds.. This has been widely backed up by higher ups in the loop.

I posted because I had never seen a concise version of Bucha and some details were new to me.

After RU withdrew forces from Kiev US and/or Kiev said the troops left because they had been repelled by Kiev military.

Did Boris hold a gun to Z's head?  If not history won't judge him very well...  If he did then same outcome...
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2138 on: April 02, 2024, 04:50:58 PM »
update found it
https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1774070745204731963

https://twitter.com/JABHA_Uk/status/1774201626997170635

Battle bots...   ::hysterical::

Jeez, does the music track they added sound like total crap...  Gonna knock down the production value score... 

Come on, man!

https://youtu.be/B_HSa1dEL9s
« Last Edit: April 02, 2024, 04:58:34 PM by Libertas »
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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2139 on: April 02, 2024, 07:23:31 PM »
...

Did Boris hold a gun to Z's head?  If not history won't judge him very well...  If he did then same outcome...

I think US/UK refused to be security guarantors of any such agreement and said they would not provide more money.
They promised to supply arms and money to defeat Russia. At first UK interference was a rumor. Then more and more people in the loop confirmed it. The Israeli diplomat. Then maybe  Turk. Most recently some Ukr diplomat involved.
When the law becomes a ruse, lawlessness becomes legitimate. -unknown