It's About Liberty: A Conservative Forum

Topics => Politics/Legislation/Elections => Topic started by: Libertas on September 06, 2016, 12:27:30 PM

Title: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on September 06, 2016, 12:27:30 PM
I think this subject deserves it's own thread.  The issue of America's survival/revival into anything it once was - a thriving lone bastion of freedom, liberty and unequaled economic prosperity - is indelibly linked to the 2016 Trump-Clinton election but it is hardly the sole mile marker counting down the demise of this once great representative republic...outside of the few who pushed encroaching despotism back a peg or two like Ronald Reagan...the march has been steadily towards statism and away from Liberty...while some (GW Bush) were a push, giving in, taking a little back, breaking even elsewhere...merely slowed the tide.

I think this article by Peterson pretty much nails it...the consequences of a Hillary Clinton Presidency would doom this nation, there would no longer be any doubt the Rubicon was crossed the last time...there will be no recovery from this, no political Renaissance...no hope of peacefully restoring the republic, it will be literally over.

It is important that people realize this, it is even more important that those responsible know this...because people like us who know for certain where the blame belongs will ensure they know one way or another!

Reprinted in its entirety -

September 6, 2016
NeverTrumps and the End of America as We Know It
By Jared E. Peterson
The election of Hillary Clinton would mean final defeat for American conservativism -- for at least a generation and almost certainly for much longer than that.  The demographic changes certain to flow from eight more years of open borders, general amnesty, and distribution of the newly arrived statist voters to electorally vulnerable states would make the Left’s presidential victory this fall, for all practical purposes, permanent.

And that’s without considering the effect on the electorate of the increasingly intolerant and repressive educational and political environment, an environment that for eight more years would continue driving substantial segments of the populace, especially the vulnerable young, into the ever more mandatory belief systems of the Left.


But don’t worry: After Clinton’s election the elegant and witty columns of George Will, William Kristol and Jonah Goldberg, aided by the surpassing political skills of the Bush and Romney families, will save us all from both these calamities, and from all the other unnamed ones that Hillary and the Left will bring.

Uh, maybe not.

If Clinton prevails there will be no conservative (or Republican) president during the lifetime of any adult member of the feckless Republican royal families, or of Mr. Goldberg or the children of George Will or William Kristol. Their prediction that the presidency will be recovered in short order is a pipe dream. Over the medium term, twenty to twenty-five years, that recovery would approach demographic impossibility. 

Despite the inarguable magnitude of the coming Clinton/Left disaster, Republican/conservative turncoats, led by these and other members of what Peggy Noonan aptly terms the “protected classes,” are working for Clinton’s election.

In unalloyed self-destructive irrationality, the support of Hillary Clinton by Never Trump commentators and Republican politicians is sui generis. 

Never before in American history have intellectual and political leaders of a major party deliberately attempted to open the gates of enduring power to an enemy sworn to their eradication.

Are they moved by general snobbery, confusion caused by overwork, East Coast social pressure?  I’ve stopped trying to figure it out and stopped caring.

But on a different level, on the level of their own personal careers and perceived short-term well-being, I’m absolutely certain what they think:

“We’ll do fine under Clinton and the Left. Under Obama we’ve experienced all of what Clinton will bring and we’ve flourished. Under Clinton we’ll do it again. We’ll continue speaking out, politely and carefully of course, and they won’t touch us; we won’t lose our jobs, our children won’t be expelled, there’ll be no unpleasant changes in our expensive neighborhoods or our children’s toney private schools, we’ll drink with the same refined people in our clubs and cocktail parties. Through it all, we’ll continue making an excellent living as the articulate opposition to the wretchedness the Left will be imposing on the American working and middle classes. The little people, the unprotected people, will endure the downside -- low wages, high taxes, unsafe and decaying neighborhoods, destroyed public schools, and violent racial animosity.  We’ll be the Left’s safe and well paid critics.”

What an appalling betrayal of the vast majority of Main Street voters who elected two Bush Presidents and made conservative intellectuals ‘cushy lives possible!

This is clear: Trump’s defeat, if it occurs, will be the work of the NeverTrumps.

The margin by which Trump now trails in national and battle ground polls is almost exactly equal to that small but significant segment of the Republican and conservative voter base -- some 20 - 25% -- that’s still following the NeverTrumps off the cliff.  Recent polling puts Trump’s support among likely Republican voters at about 73% (Romney got 93% in 2012).

So, if Trump falls, the NeverTrumps will be grinning beside the body -- like Brutus perhaps a bit nervously -- bloody knives in hand.  But as the Clinton debacle unfolds, and their role in bringing it about is meticulously established, dissected and seared into memory, who will be their political friends? Perhaps more pertinently, where will they hide?  Questions for a different essay.

Victory by the execrable Clinton and the Left is still avoidable, but only if the usually overwhelming percentages of conservatives and Republicans unite behind their Party’s candidate.  73% will not do, even with the new voters Trump’s issue candor and personal bravery are bringing.

The Republican and conservative voter base has got to be persuaded to ignore the suicidal advice of their failed former leaders and snobbish intellectuals, and come together behind a candidate who ever more clearly is solidly with them on almost all the great issues: immigration and borders, freedom of expression and religion, the role and composition of the federal judiciary, taxation and regulation, national security, and public safety.

But if 20-25%% of the Republican core continues to follow the wrist slitting advice of the Never Trump crowd, the Left once again will be victorious --as in 1992, when Republican defections to Perot gave the presidency to Bill Clinton with a puny 43% of the vote.

America thereafter would be permanently transformed into a new nation, molded by the Left’s dystopian dreams of multiculturalism, racial and ethnic balkanization, boiling hatred of black for white, open borders, and a government suffocated economy, a new nation whose populace would be increasingly beaten down by the dictates of governmentally mandated orthodoxies. 

Here -- of singular importance for any future chance of conservative governance in America -- is what we know is coming from Clinton and the Left:

Intensification of the Democratic Party-sponsored third world invasion of the country.  In this so far highly successful project, the Left has substituted millions of statist newcomer voters for the politically uncooperative Americans who shunned them in 1968, 1972, 1980, 1984, and 1988.

But the Left’s revolutionary demographic transformation of America is not complete. A stubborn and significant core of patriots and traditionalists remains.  It will be the primary task of the Clinton presidency to overwhelm this annoyingly tenacious opposition once and for all.   

The following states require only a modest infusion of statist newcomers to place them out of reach for any Republican or conservative presidential candidate not pledged to open borders and a huge welfare state: Virginia, North Carolina, Ohio, Florida, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Iowa, Nevada, Colorado and Arizona.

When any five of these ten are gone it’s game over.

Under Clinton, Illegals would continue moving north across America’s southern border in numbers sure to exceed those who came during Obama’s presidency (a minimum of 2.5 million according to liberal leaning Pew Research and the Center for Migration Studies).

In addition to the illegals, at least 1.5 million overwhelmingly third world legal immigrants will arrive annually (up from 1.1 million per year under Obama), nearly all impoverished and nearly all with expectations of government formed in their statist homelands.

Added to the legal and illegal immigrants will be the sure-to-be-legalized 11-20 million illegals already here (again Pew and Homeland Security admit to 11.2 million illegals already in America, but the actual figure is unknowably higher).

And if Clinton’s amnesty runs into Congressional opposition and she resorts to unconstitutional executive orders, this time there’ll be no help from the Supreme Court. The US Supreme Court will become a five vote rubber stamp for the Left immediately upon Clinton’s appointment of Justice Scalia’s replacement. That majority will be sustained or enlarged by whatever further vacancies come Clinton’s way.

So, adding it all up, the number of new future statist client voters after Clinton will be in the neighborhood of 26-38 million: 11-20 million amnestied illegals; 12 million new, almost exclusively third world, statist voting legal immigrants; and another 4-6 million newly arrived illegals.

With the full power of the federal executive branch in their hands, and no opposition from an increasingly partisan federal judiciary and Supreme Court, the re-empowered Left will move its newly chosen voters around as it chooses -- to the states where their voting presence will have the greatest effect.

Have the Bush and Romney families -- and their intellectual enablers – given all this even passing thought?

How many of these new voters do Messrs. Kristol, Will and Goldberg expect to persuade with their erudition?

Much more likely, what they’ve focused on is what’s always been their main concern: continued politically useless but personally remunerative occupation of the places of party power.

Over the last 25 years, neither the intellectuals nor the Party leaders of the NeverTrump crowd has prevented, or even slowed, the Left’s march through our cultural institutions.  And now, to round out their litany of failure, they urge us to give the Left permanent possession of the presidency and the federal judiciary.

One last fatal give-away from the crowd that’s already failed so grandly. I submit that Ronald Reagan, America’s most successful conservative president, and William Buckley, America’s most effective conservative intellectual, would be appalled by this selfish, self-destructive claque of clueless politicians and confused scribblers who are trying to lead America into the arms of the Left.

Reagan and Buckley had the unfailingly good judgement to vigorously support the most conservative electable candidate. Especially where the US presidency was at stake. Barring calamity, the list of possible next American Presidents contains two names. There are no others. It would take Ronald Reagan or Bill Buckley all of a microsecond to give Trump their full support in this crucial election.

It should be evident by now that the determined suicides within Republican Party and conservative leadership ranks can’t be reached by reason. This is the time to simply ignore them. Doing so now will be good practice for the future.

As for the rest of us, we can only work to ensure that, in the end, the overwhelming majority of America’s conservatives and Republicans are guided by what their greatest leaders would have done in these circumstances, and not by the willfully destructive, self-interested counsel of the snobs who are trying to hand America to the Left.

The election of Hillary Clinton would mean final defeat for American conservativism -- for at least a generation and almost certainly for much longer than that.  The demographic changes certain to flow from eight more years of open borders, general amnesty, and distribution of the newly arrived statist voters to electorally vulnerable states would make the Left’s presidential victory this fall, for all practical purposes, permanent.

And that’s without considering the effect on the electorate of the increasingly intolerant and repressive educational and political environment, an environment that for eight more years would continue driving substantial segments of the populace, especially the vulnerable young, into the ever more mandatory belief systems of the Left.

But don’t worry: After Clinton’s election the elegant and witty columns of George Will, William Kristol and Jonah Goldberg, aided by the surpassing political skills of the Bush and Romney families, will save us all from both these calamities, and from all the other unnamed ones that Hillary and the Left will bring.

Uh, maybe not.

If Clinton prevails there will be no conservative (or Republican) president during the lifetime of any adult member of the feckless Republican royal families, or of Mr. Goldberg or the children of George Will or William Kristol. Their prediction that the presidency will be recovered in short order is a pipe dream. Over the medium term, twenty to twenty-five years, that recovery would approach demographic impossibility. 

Despite the inarguable magnitude of the coming Clinton/Left disaster, Republican/conservative turncoats, led by these and other members of what Peggy Noonan aptly terms the “protected classes,” are working for Clinton’s election.

In unalloyed self-destructive irrationality, the support of Hillary Clinton by Never Trump commentators and Republican politicians is sui generis. 

Never before in American history have intellectual and political leaders of a major party deliberately attempted to open the gates of enduring power to an enemy sworn to their eradication.

Are they moved by general snobbery, confusion caused by overwork, East Coast social pressure?  I’ve stopped trying to figure it out and stopped caring.

But on a different level, on the level of their own personal careers and perceived short-term well-being, I’m absolutely certain what they think:

“We’ll do fine under Clinton and the Left. Under Obama we’ve experienced all of what Clinton will bring and we’ve flourished. Under Clinton we’ll do it again. We’ll continue speaking out, politely and carefully of course, and they won’t touch us; we won’t lose our jobs, our children won’t be expelled, there’ll be no unpleasant changes in our expensive neighborhoods or our children’s toney private schools, we’ll drink with the same refined people in our clubs and cocktail parties. Through it all, we’ll continue making an excellent living as the articulate opposition to the wretchedness the Left will be imposing on the American working and middle classes. The little people, the unprotected people, will endure the downside -- low wages, high taxes, unsafe and decaying neighborhoods, destroyed public schools, and violent racial animosity.  We’ll be the Left’s safe and well paid critics.”

What an appalling betrayal of the vast majority of Main Street voters who elected two Bush Presidents and made conservative intellectuals ‘cushy lives possible!

This is clear: Trump’s defeat, if it occurs, will be the work of the NeverTrumps.

The margin by which Trump now trails in national and battle ground polls is almost exactly equal to that small but significant segment of the Republican and conservative voter base -- some 20 - 25% -- that’s still following the NeverTrumps off the cliff.  Recent polling puts Trump’s support among likely Republican voters at about 73% (Romney got 93% in 2012).

So, if Trump falls, the NeverTrumps will be grinning beside the body -- like Brutus perhaps a bit nervously -- bloody knives in hand.  But as the Clinton debacle unfolds, and their role in bringing it about is meticulously established, dissected and seared into memory, who will be their political friends? Perhaps more pertinently, where will they hide?  Questions for a different essay.

Victory by the execrable Clinton and the Left is still avoidable, but only if the usually overwhelming percentages of conservatives and Republicans unite behind their Party’s candidate.  73% will not do, even with the new voters Trump’s issue candor and personal bravery are bringing.

The Republican and conservative voter base has got to be persuaded to ignore the suicidal advice of their failed former leaders and snobbish intellectuals, and come together behind a candidate who ever more clearly is solidly with them on almost all the great issues: immigration and borders, freedom of expression and religion, the role and composition of the federal judiciary, taxation and regulation, national security, and public safety.

But if 20-25%% of the Republican core continues to follow the wrist slitting advice of the Never Trump crowd, the Left once again will be victorious --as in 1992, when Republican defections to Perot gave the presidency to Bill Clinton with a puny 43% of the vote.

America thereafter would be permanently transformed into a new nation, molded by the Left’s dystopian dreams of multiculturalism, racial and ethnic balkanization, boiling hatred of black for white, open borders, and a government suffocated economy, a new nation whose populace would be increasingly beaten down by the dictates of governmentally mandated orthodoxies. 

Here -- of singular importance for any future chance of conservative governance in America -- is what we know is coming from Clinton and the Left:

Intensification of the Democratic Party-sponsored third world invasion of the country.  In this so far highly successful project, the Left has substituted millions of statist newcomer voters for the politically uncooperative Americans who shunned them in 1968, 1972, 1980, 1984, and 1988.

But the Left’s revolutionary demographic transformation of America is not complete. A stubborn and significant core of patriots and traditionalists remains.  It will be the primary task of the Clinton presidency to overwhelm this annoyingly tenacious opposition once and for all.   

The following states require only a modest infusion of statist newcomers to place them out of reach for any Republican or conservative presidential candidate not pledged to open borders and a huge welfare state: Virginia, North Carolina, Ohio, Florida, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Iowa, Nevada, Colorado and Arizona.

When any five of these ten are gone it’s game over.

Under Clinton, Illegals would continue moving north across America’s southern border in numbers sure to exceed those who came during Obama’s presidency (a minimum of 2.5 million according to liberal leaning Pew Research and the Center for Migration Studies).

In addition to the illegals, at least 1.5 million overwhelmingly third world legal immigrants will arrive annually (up from 1.1 million per year under Obama), nearly all impoverished and nearly all with expectations of government formed in their statist homelands.

Added to the legal and illegal immigrants will be the sure-to-be-legalized 11-20 million illegals already here (again Pew and Homeland Security admit to 11.2 million illegals already in America, but the actual figure is unknowably higher).

And if Clinton’s amnesty runs into Congressional opposition and she resorts to unconstitutional executive orders, this time there’ll be no help from the Supreme Court. The US Supreme Court will become a five vote rubber stamp for the Left immediately upon Clinton’s appointment of Justice Scalia’s replacement. That majority will be sustained or enlarged by whatever further vacancies come Clinton’s way.

So, adding it all up, the number of new future statist client voters after Clinton will be in the neighborhood of 26-38 million: 11-20 million amnestied illegals; 12 million new, almost exclusively third world, statist voting legal immigrants; and another 4-6 million newly arrived illegals.

With the full power of the federal executive branch in their hands, and no opposition from an increasingly partisan federal judiciary and Supreme Court, the re-empowered Left will move its newly chosen voters around as it chooses -- to the states where their voting presence will have the greatest effect.

Have the Bush and Romney families -- and their intellectual enablers – given all this even passing thought?

How many of these new voters do Messrs. Kristol, Will and Goldberg expect to persuade with their erudition?

Much more likely, what they’ve focused on is what’s always been their main concern: continued politically useless but personally remunerative occupation of the places of party power.

Over the last 25 years, neither the intellectuals nor the Party leaders of the NeverTrump crowd has prevented, or even slowed, the Left’s march through our cultural institutions.  And now, to round out their litany of failure, they urge us to give the Left permanent possession of the presidency and the federal judiciary.

One last fatal give-away from the crowd that’s already failed so grandly. I submit that Ronald Reagan, America’s most successful conservative president, and William Buckley, America’s most effective conservative intellectual, would be appalled by this selfish, self-destructive claque of clueless politicians and confused scribblers who are trying to lead America into the arms of the Left.

Reagan and Buckley had the unfailingly good judgement to vigorously support the most conservative electable candidate. Especially where the US presidency was at stake. Barring calamity, the list of possible next American Presidents contains two names. There are no others. It would take Ronald Reagan or Bill Buckley all of a microsecond to give Trump their full support in this crucial election.

It should be evident by now that the determined suicides within Republican Party and conservative leadership ranks can’t be reached by reason. This is the time to simply ignore them. Doing so now will be good practice for the future.

As for the rest of us, we can only work to ensure that, in the end, the overwhelming majority of America’s conservatives and Republicans are guided by what their greatest leaders would have done in these circumstances, and not by the willfully destructive, self-interested counsel of the snobs who are trying to hand America to the Left.

Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2016/09/nevertrumps_and_the_end_of_america_as_we_know_it.html#ixzz4JUuyuBkJ (http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2016/09/nevertrumps_and_the_end_of_america_as_we_know_it.html#ixzz4JUuyuBkJ)
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Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Alphabet Soup on September 06, 2016, 12:47:33 PM
If Trump loses I will have a "going out of business" sale, followed by a "fire sale" followed by a fire, followed by me slipping out the back gate. After that you won't hear from me - you'll hear about me.

I'm a poor loser.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Predator Don on September 06, 2016, 02:20:35 PM
If all goes well, I'm a few weeks from selling my business. Figure I'll have 3-4 years of collecting lease for the building before it gets so bad under Clinton that it goes away. Once it goes bad, I'll give the building up....because we once thought to pay it off but if Hillary is elected, I don't think it is the wise thing to do.

Truthfully, we resisted the belief that economically it could totally bottom out. This election will change our entire outlook on how we move forward. I've never been one who wanted to be in debt, we like to pay things off, be debt free and have worked hard toward that goal. Now? I can't believe we will entertain keeping a building note because we see such a downturn, such a poor economic future that it would be better to use our resources in other ventures, and once our leasee can't pay, just toss the keys to the bank. Here ya go. It's yours. Take it. It drives me nuts...but after the business sells, we may consider selling the building too. Totally against our nature.

I could never get my wife to pack it up and move out of country and I'm sure there will be a period of time before we need to decide what to do....but I'm fairly certain, at this point, paying off our building won't happen.

I know how we got here......but it's still difficult to think, after 60 years of responsibility, planning, sacrificing, we could be faced with decisions I never thought fathomable. Welcome to the new America.

Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: IronDioPriest on September 06, 2016, 03:06:05 PM
I'm pretty much of the opinion that Obama's presidency was the last twist of the dagger in the heart of this nation. Politics will not save us.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Pandora on September 06, 2016, 03:30:34 PM
I'm pretty much of the opinion that Obama's presidency was the last twist of the dagger in the heart of this nation. Politics will not save us.

Yes.  No.  Almost every institution has swung Left; the courts are the most egregious injury.  The Senate Republicans just slotted in Obongo's lower court choices and from thence come the reversals on voter ID cases and the screwed up decisions on "transgender rights".
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: ToddF on September 06, 2016, 06:14:47 PM
I had all my fire sales after Obama's second election, plus Minnesota going Full Retard (DDD).

Nothing short of the country splitting in two will have a chance of creating anything worthy of coming back to.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Glock32 on September 06, 2016, 08:52:18 PM
I'm pretty much of the opinion that Obama's presidency was the last twist of the dagger in the heart of this nation. Politics will not save us.

Yes.  No.  Almost every institution has swung Left; the courts are the most egregious injury.  The Senate Republicans just slotted in Obongo's lower court choices and from thence come the reversals on voter ID cases and the screwed up decisions on "transgender rights".


At this point, my only real interest in politics is the extent to which it can illuminate some necessary facts that will inform people's thinking in the post-collapse period.  By that I mean such things as:

Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Pandora on September 06, 2016, 10:12:21 PM
I'm pretty much of the opinion that Obama's presidency was the last twist of the dagger in the heart of this nation. Politics will not save us.

Yes.  No.  Almost every institution has swung Left; the courts are the most egregious injury.  The Senate Republicans just slotted in Obongo's lower court choices and from thence come the reversals on voter ID cases and the screwed up decisions on "transgender rights".


At this point, my only real interest in politics is the extent to which it can illuminate some necessary facts that will inform people's thinking in the post-collapse period.  By that I mean such things as:

  • the finally laid bare fact that the GOP were not simply incompetent in their inability to prosecute a conservative agenda, but were in fact active opponents
  • the fact that white people will have to begin thinking and behaving in explicitly tribal modes -- whether one thinks it right or not doesn't matter

No, it doesn't matter ........ to the alt-right.  For all the various definitions, inclusions and exclusions, one can be sure of one thing, some Whites have finally come awake to what's at stake.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Glock32 on September 06, 2016, 11:08:01 PM

No, it doesn't matter ........ to the alt-right.  For all the various definitions, inclusions and exclusions, one can be sure of one thing, some Whites have finally come awake to what's at stake.

And not a moment too soon.  It may be what saves Western Civilization.  For 30 years or more the liberals have been trumpeting the extinction of white people, triumphantly reeling off all the statistics of birthrate, immigration, etc, etc.  But our destiny is not riding on rails.  Directions can change suddenly.  Europe is getting a cold slap in the face by reality right now, and the response has been Brexit and the rise of the new Right all over the continent.  Trump's popularity over here didn't really take off until he "went there" and singled out the invasion over our southern border as a key issue, and his rise has been meteoric since.  The media can try to marginalize this all they want, but the fact is the frog is showing some signs that it knows the water is getting too hot.

The elites don't get to set our destiny for us.  We do.  All this fait accompli talk of theirs, about our demographic destiny, is essentially nothing more than a confidence trick and people are realizing it.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Pandora on September 07, 2016, 05:36:58 AM
Quote
... For 30 years or more the liberals have been trumpeting the extinction of white people, triumphantly reeling off all the statistics of birthrate, immigration, etc, etc. ,,,

And it's been sickening!  It's one thing to hear the Blacks do it, those of other races as well, but to hear the lunatic White Left doing it is horrifying.  For the same White Left that goes into paroxysms of grief over any and all other species, endangered or extinct, to cheer at the prospect .........  Horrifying and infuriating. 
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Weisshaupt on September 07, 2016, 08:11:11 AM

  • the fact that white people will have to begin thinking and behaving in explicitly tribal modes -- whether one thinks it right or not doesn't matter

While I don't dispute this is probably the case, and it might be required for survival-  it is in effect throwing the baby out with the bath water. We already have a Tribe - the American Tribe -  one of the first in history in which membership was not determined by skin color, or religion,  but acceptance of a set of simple principles about law, freedom and justice, and I think we will be best served rallying, organizing and identifying around a Gadsen Flag, than around "White Lives Matter (too) " hashtag.

Sticking with the American tribe  has the (significant) disadvantage that we can not easily and quickly tell friend from foe on a battle field - and hence my comment about  basic survival. But the number of White liberal we already have make that moot anyway. In fact, I think the white liberals will be the first or organize on racial lines if  they get over their white guilt. In what comes ways must be found to exclude liberals from our ranks -  and if the south becomes a black controlled region with white slaves, I have no problem at all selling the liberals we capture to them, or failing that,  to the Caliphate. I would in fact find it a fitting punishment that they be enslaved to the very powers they were aiding and abetting in the overthrow of the old republic.

However, conservatives,  responding in kind and organizing  around the color of our skin,  will  only turn  away like minded individuals in the American tribe who do not happen to have white skin - serving the enemies purpose of divide and conquer.- and even if we emerge victorious completely or in enclaves, could result in white-focused, racist culture that ultimately will not serve us well. (Just as the Black Lives Matter Black focused racist culture does not serve lacks well)  America became a superpower by accepting other cultures and ideas into the game, as long as they adopted and played by the rules - as long as they joined the American Tribe and accepted the truths we find to be self-evident, and if we loose tat ability, we loose a large part of what we are fighting for. 
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on September 07, 2016, 08:14:45 AM
My interest is reduced to just taking notes for the coming bellum propter libertatem sancti...the holy war for liberty.

The Progs have never and will never play nice with us, so peaceful coexistence with them is as remote and insane as peace is with Islam.

The E-GOP was never going to reform itself, grow a set and stand and fight on God-given principles illuminated by our Founders.

A people grown fat, lazy and stupid was never going to stand up on their own two feet and take responsibility for their actions.

A complicit press spreading deceit is never going to willingly reverse their Goebbels-like loyalty to progressive dogma.

A corrupt judiciary is never going to go back to original constitutional construction and undo its own excesses.

A crony-capitalist cabal living parasitically off this necrotic state is not going to stop feeding on the corpse until there is no corpse left to feed upon.

A popular culture that worships itself is not going to reform its morality simply because it is the right thing to do.

This trajectory has but one path, the path can be deviated, but nothing can ultimately stop it unless all of the above if effectively and permanently reversed.

Trump has a chance to slow the pace...Hillary can only quicken it.  Regardless of the outcome...the E-GOP has to be put on notice...the Progs are our #1 enemy but the treachery of the E-GOP is perhaps more despicable, because they should know better and are purposely siding with the enemy out of pure blind spite.

That spite will be returned unto them 1,000 fold!

I've made my choice...everyone will have to make theirs or have it made for them.

(http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss291/libertasinfinitio/Flags/dtom_zpsqysru1um.jpg)
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Pandora on September 07, 2016, 08:59:35 AM
Quote
... We already have a Tribe - the American Tribe -  one of the first in history in which membership was not determined by skin color, or religion,  but acceptance of a set of simple principles about law, freedom and justice, and I think we will be best served rallying, organizing and identifying around a Gadsen Flag, than around "White Lives Matter (too) " hashtag.

First, the Founders wrote our Documents in which they established those principles about law, freedom and justice for themselves and their posterity, essentially their descendants: White Christians/agnostics.

Having written that, I don't largely disagree with the propositional nation theory, but as there has to be a starting point for a reclamation and renewal, I believe tribal identification to be necessary at this point.

Keep in mind, the White Left will want NOTHING to do with any group that thus identifies, so there's the benefit of them self sorting OUT.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Weisshaupt on September 07, 2016, 09:02:34 AM
Yeah I just want to make sure we adopt the Gadsen as our banner, and not something like this:

(http://15130-presscdn-0-89.pagely.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Confederate-Flag-Design-485x271.jpg)

Quote
Thompson was proud to admit that “As a people we are fighting to maintain the heavenly ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause. Such a flag would be a suitable emblem of our young confederacy, and sustained by the brave hearts and strong arms of the south, it would soon take rank among the proudest ensigns of the nations, and be hailed by the civilized world as THE WHITE MAN’S FLAG.”

 I thought about using the confederate flag in my first post instead of the hashtag example, but refrained  because I didn't wish to offend anyone here,  but after coming across this ( and verifying it)  this morning, I realized this flag is, in fact, the symbol of what I want to avoid.  The Confederate flag did indeed stand for defiance, freedom, self-determination and  States Rights, and those in the South have every right to feel proud of that part of it,  but it was also designed by a Racist White  Democrat to be the  banner of the White Tribe - a symbol of  limiting the extension of those principles and values we value to only those  whose  skin has less melanin content. .

I would never try to stop someone from freely expressing their opinions by displaying one,  but the  confederate flag is a mixed bag. Perhaps a truer symbol of America as it was in reality  when first founded - imperfect in the application of our principles, mixed with the bad blood, wrongs, and prejudice  inherited from the old world via citizens who came from that world.

As racial relations worsen, immigration remained unchecked , and more and more whites become the victims of assaults the government will do nothing about,   I think there will be a strong temptation to return to it, and your original sentiment about organizing upon racial lines. One of the Stories on Fran's site dealt with this -  where the loyal Black member of the  American Tribe  was rejected by  the militia fighting a race war - and I have no doubt that is exactly  what will happen in some places. I fear it will ultimately weaken us and strengthen the enemy. "Don't Tread on Me" - means  everyone.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Pandora on September 07, 2016, 09:10:34 AM
I understand your reluctance and objections, Weisshaupt, human nature being what it is.  However, please give a thought to those of 'other melanin content' who seem/ed to be with us, but at the first sign of opposition, have flipped to revert to racial tribe.  I am loathe to support, for elected office or otherwise, any who campaign or claim membership in any other tribe than American, but it happens often and it's always a disappointment.  In other words, I don't believe they can be trusted.

Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Weisshaupt on September 07, 2016, 09:57:34 AM
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First, the Founders wrote our Documents in which they established those principles about law, freedom and justice for themselves and their posterity, essentially their descendants: WHO HAPPENED TO BE LARGELY  White Christians/agnostics.

There. Fixed it for ya. America was founded using principles and morality based upon Christianity and the more general traditions of what we call Western Civilization. It doesn't follow that  those principles are reserved to White Christians.  The Founders preached tolerance  for those other ideas because the American Tribe at the time was so ridiculously dominant that these small minorities spouting nonsense posed little threat. 


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The bill for establishing religious freedom, the principles of which had, to a certain degree, been enacted before, I had drawn in all the latitude of reason and right. It still met with opposition; but, with some mutilations in the preamble, it was finally passed; and a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read, "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination. - Thomas Jefferson on the First Amendment

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Both house and ground were vested and in trustees, expressly for the use of any preacher of any religious persuasion who might desire to say something to the people at Philadelphia; the design in building not being to accommodate any particular sect, but the inhabitants in general; so that even if the Mufti of Constantinople were to send a missionary to preach Mohammedanism to us, he would find a pulpit at his service. - Benjamin Franklin Autobiography


Of course the founder's didn't  foresee a time when our Government would be actively using taxpayer dollars to deliberalty import adherents of religions whose principles are opposed to those of the American Tribe. Obviously those who don't accept our principles cannot become members of the American tribe- because the American tribe is BASED ENTIRELY on those principles. They are  the binding force, the thing we have in common that makes us a tribe.

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Having written that, I don't largely disagree with the propositional nation theory, but as there has to be a starting point for a reclamation and renewal, I believe tribal identification to be necessary at this point.

But what will be the basis of that identification?  Will being "white"  or being "Christian" be necessary for membership? We have a need to band together. But do we rally around the Gadsen or the Confederate flag?


Quote
Keep in mind, the White Left will want NOTHING to do with any group that thus identifies, so there's the benefit of them self sorting OUT.

You make the mistake of thinking the Left has morals or principles. They simply don't. They are all narcissistic sociopaths. 

And narcissistic  sociopaths  want only one thing - power over others.  If the way to get that is to become KKK leaders, they will do it . If they way to do it is to lie about their comrades in arms in  winter soldier testimony, they will do it.  If the way to do it is to slander a man over his taxes,  they will do it.  If the way to do it is to lie and tell you that you can keep you plan and doctor, then they will do it.  If the way to do it is to run servers in your bathroom and blame You Tube videos, they will do it.

Anywhere there is a locus of power, they will swarm to it like moths. 

The Democrats are and always have been the party of white supremacist racists with stars upon thars, and coloreds  are their favorite people to seek control over. Forming a tribe based on race will most likely attract liberals. They react viscerally to the Confederate flag only because it allows them to virtue signal their moral superiority to the herd, while bullying and controlling the expression of people who disagree.  If a preference cascade occurs and it appears the herd values whiteness, then they will gladly laud the Confederate flag as a symbol of virtue, and bully and control those who disagree.

The Gadsen, on the other hand will repel them. It means that bullying and controlling others is off the table, and it offers them  nothing to satisfy tier narcissistic egos and craving to impose their will on others. ( Remember, "Live and Let live" is a philosophy that unfairly  imposes on them the  idea that "others aren't property")  True conservatism, or Traditional Americanism, or whatever label you want for it  - offers nothing to the narcissist

Organizing on racial lines poses significant danger in my opinion - to our principles, our ability to succeed, and  probably to our immortal souls as well.



 

Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Weisshaupt on September 07, 2016, 10:00:48 AM
I understand your reluctance and objections, Weisshaupt, human nature being what it is.  However, please give a thought to those of 'other melanin content' who seem/ed to be with us, but at the first sign of opposition, have flipped to revert to racial tribe.  I am loathe to support, for elected office or otherwise, any who campaign or claim membership in any other tribe than American, but it happens often and it's always a disappointment.  In other words, I don't believe they can be trusted.

They didn't trust the black guy in  the story for that reason..  but bottom line, you can't trust a person cause they are white either. In the absence of information and a high cost of knowledge, sure , go wit your gut, and trust the white guy. But if you do have the ability and time to make this judgement on better information,  Melanin content just isn't (and shouldn't be)  relevant in deciding who to trust.*

* Void where prohibited by law.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Pandora on September 07, 2016, 10:48:06 AM
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... essentially their descendants: WHO HAPPENED TO BE LARGELY  White Christians/agnostics.

No. Wrong.  You didn't fix it, you distorted it.  The descendants they were concerned with WERE White; none put stock in those from the other side of the blanket if there were any.

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It doesn't follow that  those principles are reserved to White Christians.

And I didn't write that they are; I was speaking specifically of the Founders.

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But do we rally around the Gadsen or the Confederate flag?

I do not hold the Confederate flag with opprobrium, regardless of its designers sentiments, rather I view it through the eyes of the Southerners to whom it, indeed, stood for "defiance, freedom, self-determination and  States Rights, and those in the South have every right to feel proud of that part of it".  Maybe one has to actually live in the South to get that, one's origins notwithstanding.  So, I'm fine with the Gadsden flag or no flag.  It ain't the GD flag that matters.

We know who the Left is and how they manage to twist everything; I believe we'd 'see them coming'.

Quote
They didn't trust the black guy in  the story for that reason..  but bottom line, you can't trust a person cause they are white either. In the absence of information and a high cost of knowledge, sure , go wit your gut, and trust the white guy. But if you do have the ability and time to make this judgement on better information,  Melanin content just isn't (and shouldn't be)  relevant in deciding who to trust.*

Yeah? Well, tell that to Black Lives Matters and LaRaza.  We have to organize a pushback against them because they're out for Whitey blood.  And did I write that just because someone is White, they should be automatically trusted.  No, so please stop straw-manning me here.

As for "Organizing on racial lines poses significant danger in my opinion - to our principles, our ability to succeed, and  probably to our immortal souls as well", I'm not suggesting genocide here, I'm suggesting a beginning phase.  It's clear your mileage varies and that's fine.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on September 07, 2016, 11:30:30 AM
Not to pile on, but...

"There. Fixed it for ya. America was founded using principles and morality based upon Christianity and the more general traditions of what we call Western Civilization. It doesn't follow that  those principles are reserved to White Christians.  The Founders preached tolerance  for those other ideas because the American Tribe at the time was so ridiculously dominant that these small minorities spouting nonsense posed little threat."

The Founding Principles are not reserved to any ethnic or religious group...they are completely color blind...but they are not blind to cults hostile to their very existence either!  I will argue with anybody willing to listen that Islam and Progressive ideology and militant atheism are cults and completely incompatible with Founding Principles!  It is the cultists who have to renounce and repent their hostile beliefs if they wish to enjoy the gift of our Founding Principles...if they cannot do that then I don't give a rats ass what color they are...they are OUT!  And if they attack me or my Principles, their lives are forfeit, period.

(https://westernrifleshooters.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/preparedness-update.jpg)
H/T-WRSA

Yes?

PS - Is this color blind?  Religion blind?  Racist?

http://iotwreport.com/caterpillar-hires-h-1b-foreign-graduates-fires-300-american-professionals/ (http://iotwreport.com/caterpillar-hires-h-1b-foreign-graduates-fires-300-american-professionals/)

How about this?

http://iotwreport.com/youve-come-a-long-way-baby-cal-state-offers-segregated-housing-for-blacks/ (http://iotwreport.com/youve-come-a-long-way-baby-cal-state-offers-segregated-housing-for-blacks/)

But this is beyond offensive to snowflakes...

(http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss291/libertasinfinitio/Flags/starsandbars_zpsmend6yvy.jpeg)

 ::facepalm::
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Glock32 on September 07, 2016, 01:02:10 PM
I'm past the point of pretending we can have a propositional color blind society.  If one truly implements a color blind society based entirely on individual merit, then the results are going to end up being highly disproportionate along, ta da, racial lines.  It will forever be a wellspring of grievances and you will end up with all the same social pathologies we currently enjoy.  Nevertheless, intellectual honesty requires me to always treat people as individuals, and I do.  I am just never surprised that my preconceived expectations are confirmed more often than not.

I think the time for nuanced answers are over.  If white people as a biological group disappear, the whole of Western Civilization disappears too.  The progenitors of this civilization did not "happen to be" white people.  This civilization was the unique product of their intellectual and moral characteristics with a Christian operating system.  You could have instead put Africans, Arabs, or Chinese into the North American wilderness and they would have founded an entirely different sort of society.

I think white people have made a pretty good effort at the color blind ideal, of welcoming different people and cultures as immigrants, and what we've achieved with all that is our imminent extinction.  Self-conscious tribalism is the only way to head that off now.  There is never going to be the anarcho-libertarian fantasy of multiple types of people all joined in unity by common ideals.  You can maybe pull that off in a particular time and place, but it hasn't the ability to transfer from one generation to the next -- in marked contrast to ethnic identity which is, literally, in the blood.  The multi-ethnic society will always have fault lines and grievances baked into the cake.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Weisshaupt on September 07, 2016, 01:47:46 PM

And I didn't write that they are; I was speaking specifically of the Founders.

You can go back as far as Locke's Letter on Tolerance -  The Founders were I am sure, primarily concerned with their own progeny, but I am still failing to see how its relevant or why you are mentioning it if you aren't asserting these principles were primarily for white Christians..

So, I'm fine with the Gadsden flag or no flag.  It ain't the GD flag that matters.

No, it  is what the flag symbolizes or represents that matters - it sets the standard that people rally around and support - what the movement is for, what its adherents believe. - and in fact the word "standard"  can be used anonymously  with "flag".  It serves as a form of  the public display that communicates to others that you are a supporter  of that movement - and your beliefs and actions  as a follower of that flag  both come from and feed back into that symbol. This  TED talk (https://www.ted.com/talks/derek_sivers_how_to_start_a_movement?language=en) shows in a simplified way how this comes about-- and the flag becomes the public face of what you are trying to accomplish.  In fact , it may be impossible to have a genuine movement without a flag or symbol of some kind, because you need that publicly visible aspect  to create the preference cascade among the frigging sheeple.


We know who the Left is and how they manage to twist everything; I believe we'd 'see them coming'.

While no one cares what the left would think, its best to not give them ammunition. But its a lot harder to make the case that the Gadson is racist than it is to make that case for the Confederate flag. Perhaps an entirely new symbol is needed, and if so, you can bet it will be created. You need some outward sign of tribal loyalty - be it a uniform,  it gang colors, insignia, tattoos or simply skin color.

Yeah? Well, tell that to Black Lives Matters and LaRaza.  We have to organize a pushback against them because they're out for Whitey blood. 

Those groups want to make their skin color the  tribal standard,  but that doesn't mean the organization pushing back need be arranged upon the same lines.  Iconography does matter.  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdtqtfXdR-c)


And did I write that just because someone is White, they should be automatically trusted.  No, so please stop straw-manning me here.

You said, "please give a thought to those of 'other melanin content' who seem/ed to be with us, but at the first sign of opposition, have flipped to revert to racial tribe." - This statement implied to me  that  those with the "same melanin content" wouldn't or didn't flip. I am sorry I misinterpreted it, but I am still failing to see how the melanin content matters. You are with us, or against us and we will know you as an enemy by your actions and words,  not by  your skin color (though in the absence of information and in an environment where  such  information comes at high risk or cost,  skin color might well provide a best guess)


I'm not suggesting genocide here, I'm suggesting a beginning phase.  It's clear your mileage varies and that's fine.

Beginnings are important, and you can't depend on changing things later. A movement and nations develop their own culture. What is acceptable in the beginning tends to get grandfathered in even  if something changes. . witness the 3/5s clause  if you need evidence of this, and our current problems pretty much prove that a civil war and an Amendment didn't solve it either. Old grievances die hard- especially when those who are trying to destroy you keep resuscitating them.

In the stories of the New American Republic on Fran's site, the new nation was mostly white and explicitly Christian, and maybe that is the way it has to be to save us. Maybe there are so many narcissistic sociopaths that victory can only be had by gaining their support by playing to their needs. . Maybe the Gadsen and "Liberty for all" is ultimately too  ineffective against the tide, where "liberty for White Christians" will work ( and I would argue a new symbol would be needed for that) .Will I take a White Christian New American Republic  over death and tyranny? Yes. Just as the Founders accepted an America with Slavery over no America at all.  That doesn't mean I would prefer it, and starting that way probably means it will stay that way.  I am not convinced yet that is the only course to victory, but I concede that perhaps it could be.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Weisshaupt on September 07, 2016, 02:59:47 PM
I'm past the point of pretending we can have a propositional color blind society.  If one truly implements a color blind society based entirely on individual merit, then the results are going to end up being highly disproportionate along, ta da, racial lines.  It will forever be a wellspring of grievances and you will end up with all the same social pathologies we currently enjoy.  Nevertheless, intellectual honesty requires me to always treat people as individuals, and I do.  I am just never surprised that my preconceived expectations are confirmed more often than not.

The trouble is getting the perception of a  "clean slate".. if that can be achieved  - and it probably can and will be - once the dollar collapses and everyone is reduced to poverty and suffering -  then you can't point back further and complain about what your father did to my father - or  at least not if you are intellectually honest - because everyone started at zero. But of course there are those who will not be intellectually honest, and they will ALWAYS be there ( more on that in a moment)

 I don't think the performance differences between races are endemic by birth or DNA,  or at least not so ingrained they can't be overcome (If you are American Indian - don't be dumb enough to drink and so on) . I think  performance differences are largely caused by culture and values. Thomas Sowell's Cultures series supports that hypothesis in more detail than I will recount here.  And as you point out the "white people's" success came largely from a Christian operating system, and I can guarantee that the first Christians were not white - just that the ones who weren't white ( and far away) were hunted to extinction by Mohammed and his tribe of barbarians.  The White people happened to be the ones who established a stronghold of Christianity  in Europe, and again I don't think that was because they were white (are Spaniards white? I am remembering something about Moors...) 
I believe the  Christian  OS can run on any human being that chooses to run it, unless one wants to try to make the case that some races are too inferior to run it.

I know Lincoln was not a saint but in this I think he was right

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"Now I ask you in all soberness, if all these things, if indulged in, if ratified, if confirmed and endorsed, if taught to our children, and repeated to them, do not tend to rub out the sentiment of liberty in the country, and to transform this Government into a government of some other form.

"Those arguments that are made, that the inferior race are to be treated with as much allowance as they are capable of enjoying; that as much is to be done for them as their condition will allow. What are these arguments? They are the arguments that kings have made for enslaving the people in all ages of the world.

"You will find that all the arguments in favor of king-craft were of this class; they always bestrode the necks of the people, not that they wanted to do it, but because the people were better off for being ridden. That is their argument, and this argument of the Judge is the same old serpent that says you work and I eat, you toil and I will enjoy the fruits of it.

"Turn it whatever way you will---whether it come from the mouth of a King, an excuse for enslaving the people of his country, or from the mouth of men of one race as a reason for enslaving the men of another race, it is all the same old serpent." -- Abraham Lincoln. Speech at Chicago, Illinois | July 10, 1858

Self-conscious tribalism is the only way to head that off now.  There is never going to be the anarcho-libertarian fantasy of multiple types of people all joined in unity by common ideals.  You can maybe pull that off in a particular time and place, but it hasn't the ability to transfer from one generation to the next -- in marked contrast to ethnic identity which is, literally, in the blood. 

I agree that Self-conscious tribalism is required - I disagree that a tribe can only be based along racial differences   Jews aren't a race, but they are still considered an ethnicity.. because they share a common belief system based on a religion. And the liberals basically now have a ethnicity  based on shared narcissistic sociopathy  ( how many Jews are liberal and are happy to see Israel destroyed? Are they still Jews really?)  Islam is both a religion and a Political system, and it has persisted for centuries.  Why can there not be an ethic system based on an American political ideology? 

The multi-ethnic society will always have fault lines and grievances baked into the cake.

Humans will always find reasons to fight.   Every single  North American Indian tribe probably descended from a common group of ancestors, but yet they all formed distinct tribes and cultures, passed their ideals and traditions on for generations, warred with one another, enslaved one another, and yet  they were all part of the same race. Likewise Chinese and Japanese are both "Asian" but can certainly tell each other apart, and war with each other based on facial characteristics.One could conceive of tribes based on Eye Color (Aryans)  or Hair color ( Kill the soulless Gingers!) The human race is prone to faction  and we will invent a difference if one doesn't exist,  because it is by exploiting those differences that certain individuals can gain power for themselves.  Faction in ANY large human  society is simply inevitable. ANY and Every society has this baked into the cake, multi-ethnic or not. Simply the greater talents and resultant prosperity of a few is enough to create these divisions.   But there will always be a reason found to fight

(http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c341/weisshaupt/halfwhite_zps4bzq66sw.jpg)

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By a faction, I understand a number of citizens, whether amounting to a majority or a minority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adversed to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the community.

There are two methods of curing the mischiefs of faction: the one, by removing its causes; the other, by controlling its effects.

There are again two methods of removing the causes of faction: the one, by destroying the liberty which is essential to its existence; the other, by giving to every citizen the same opinions, the same passions, and the same interests.

It could never be more truly said than of the first remedy, that it was worse than the disease. Liberty is to faction what air is to fire, an aliment without which it instantly expires. But it could not be less folly to abolish liberty, which is essential to political life, because it nourishes faction, than it would be to wish the annihilation of air, which is essential to animal life, because it imparts to fire its destructive agency.

The second expedient is as impracticable as the first would be unwise. As long as the reason of man continues fallible, and he is at liberty to exercise it, different opinions will be formed. As long as the connection subsists between his reason and his self-love, his opinions and his passions will have a reciprocal influence on each other; and the former will be objects to which the latter will attach themselves. The diversity in the faculties of men, from which the rights of property originate, is not less an insuperable obstacle to a uniformity of interests. The protection of these faculties is the first object of government. From the protection of different and unequal faculties of acquiring property, the possession of different degrees and kinds of property immediately results; and from the influence of these on the sentiments and views of the respective proprietors, ensues a division of the society into different interests and parties.

The latent causes of faction are thus sown in the nature of man; and we see them everywhere brought into different degrees of activity, according to the different circumstances of civil society. A zeal for different opinions concerning religion, concerning government, and many other points, as well of speculation as of practice; an attachment to different leaders ambitiously contending for pre-eminence and power; or to persons of other descriptions whose fortunes have been interesting to the human passions, have, in turn, divided mankind into parties, inflamed them with mutual animosity, and rendered them much more disposed to vex and oppress each other than to co-operate for their common good. So strong is this propensity of mankind to fall into mutual animosities, that where no substantial occasion presents itself, the most frivolous and fanciful distinctions have been sufficient to kindle their unfriendly passions and excite their most violent conflicts. But the most common and durable source of factions has been the various and unequal distribution of property. Those who hold and those who are without property have ever formed distinct interests in society. Those who are creditors, and those who are debtors, fall under a like discrimination. A landed interest, a manufacturing interest, a mercantile interest, a moneyed interest, with many lesser interests, grow up of necessity in civilized nations, and divide them into different classes, actuated by different sentiments and views. The regulation of these various and interfering interests forms the principal task of modern legislation, and involves the spirit of party and faction in the necessary and ordinary operations of the government.....t is in vain to say that enlightened statesmen will be able to adjust these clashing interests, and render them all subservient to the public good. Enlightened statesmen will not always be at the helm. Nor, in many cases, can such an adjustment be made at all without taking into view indirect and remote considerations, which will rarely prevail over the immediate interest which one party may find in disregarding the rights of another or the good of the whole.

The inference to which we are brought is, that the causes of faction cannot be removed, and that relief is only to be sought in the means of controlling its effects.

If a faction consists of less than a majority, relief is supplied by the republican principle, which enables the majority to defeat its sinister views by regular vote. It may clog the administration, it may convulse the society; but it will be unable to execute and mask its violence under the forms of the Constitution. When a majority is included in a faction, the form of popular government, on the other hand, enables it to sacrifice to its ruling passion or interest both the public good and the rights of other citizens. To secure the public good and private rights against the danger of such a faction, and at the same time to preserve the spirit and the form of popular government, is then the great object to which our inquiries are directed.

James Madison , Federalist #10

What we need is a tribe that viciously and jealously protects its principles and denies rights or protections  to those who do not adhere to the tribe's principles as Libertas suggested. .  Our original constitution was too open, and allowed the freedom for outsiders to live in our country, benefit from our laws , but live outside of our  tribe.  That has to stop. If you can't agree to the rule of law, that the constitution can only be changed via the consent of the governed, and that a government exists primary and foremost to secure the inalienable, individual rights of its citizens - then you should be denied the protection of that government, captured, and sold into slavery or killed  to teach you (and others) a lesson about the importance of  individual rights and freedom.  As I admitted to Pan, maybe that sort of unity can only occur with people of the same race and religion, but America did quite well without that for at least 100 years, and didn't start to suffer from external tribal forces until the Civil war.  I think Madison is right, that there is a solution to faction in the sort of government he set up, but for any constitutional government to work  everyone has to follow the rules in the constitution, and the old republic's constitution did not  enforce the perpetuation of those cultural teachings well enough.  They could be passed down, and perpetuated,  I think, even in a multi-ethnic society.

The problem isn't the color of a person's skin. Its just not.  Its the refusal to join our tribe, and instead to perpetuate another culture/tribe  within  our borders  - like a parasite- till it bursts and destroys the host.. . Because that is what happened. Our culture was infected. Both from within and without. There is proof the Russians deliberately infected it. And our own laws and beliefs prevented us from cutting out the cancer, and we were forced to let it grow.

We simply need to alter the deal.  If you can't recognize the rights of others  you have no claim to rights of your own. If you deny laws need the consent of the governed, then no law protects you. If you reject  the original limits of our government, and wish to change them without amendment,  then the country should reject you as a despot.  And that needs to be written right into the Constitution as a form of Treason.  If you don't run the American Freedom via  Constitutional Republic OS,  you are deemed a virus and deleted. ( and if that means Genocide within our borders, I am okay with it.)  "American"  needs to become an ethnicity.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Pandora on September 07, 2016, 07:06:14 PM
Quote
Posted by: Weisshaupt ...

(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa189/sugarlake/duty_calls.png) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/sugarlake/media/duty_calls.png.html)

 ;D

Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Weisshaupt on September 07, 2016, 08:09:39 PM
(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa189/sugarlake/duty_calls.png) (http://s200.photobucket.com/user/sugarlake/media/duty_calls.png.html)



I have that one framed on my office wall.

And no, I don't think you or  Glock are "wrong". In fact we know from many years of history that you are both right -  A tribe formed on Racial and Religious lines will unquestionably be possible. 
I am merely arguing my case that there may be a different and better way that is more in line with the philosophical principles of the founders and the  experiment the Founders began based on those beliefs. 

"Its a Republic, if you can keep it."  We couldn't .  So the original needs to be augmented in some way. If we win a war, we will face these questions directly just as the founders did. If we don't,  then we need to figure out if and how we will survive - even if its as some protected minority like the Amish, or in some enclave like an indian reservation.

Perhaps both scenarios can be accommodated by requiring a homogeneous ethnic makeup and a loose religious conformity. Maybe that will be more stable because it gives the narcissistic  bullies something to do other than tear down the society, since there is a nice, defined "other"  based on simple and easily identifiable characteristics they can go harass ( if we win)   or blame ( if we loose)

So can "American" become an ethnicity? Can our ideological positions be tribalized  so they foremost define us as a group and as a people? Is it impossible to have a largely open and free multi-religious,  mutli-cultural and multi ethnic society  as a republic , and what evidence suggests that such a endeavor  is doomed to failure no matter what. Was Madison incorrect when he described the causes of faction and the remedy for them?
Can we have a society where you are American first, and whatever else, after - where individuals accept American principles above any beliefs held upon ethnic, religious or racial lines? Or does that leave us too vulnerable to divide and conqueror attacks (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23X14HS4gLk) that highlight and exacerbate our differences?  Is there a way that could be combated socially -  perhaps with  education or ritual? A shared rite of passage perhaps? Something along the lines of Bill Whittle's three an half days (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAOrT0OcHh0) perhaps?

The founders thought about this stuff - a lot. And they got it wrong.  Do we give up on the experiment completely, or are there sacrifices we need to make in the principles to make it work? I think its important that we discuss these things so we understand the options and directions we can go in, and understand the ramifications of a given choice.   Later, there might not be the time or luxury to think this through.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Pandora on September 07, 2016, 09:18:42 PM
Wrong, in quotation marks?

Weisshaupt, compromising or sacrificing principles never works; I know you know that.  Perhaps we should start by defining our principles.  One of -- no, my Chief Principle is Truth.  Face the Truth and work from there.  What I believe is Truth is a multi-ethnic society doesn't work in the long run.  Ever.  People want to be with their own, and twisting or trying to redefine "own" -- as in, an American Tribe, an American ethnicity -- isn't going to work.  Because it hasn't, despite us giving it our best shot.

As I wrote previously, your mileage may vary and that's okay.  I'm done with this in any case.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Weisshaupt on September 08, 2016, 12:26:09 AM
Wrong, in quotation marks?

"Wrong" - as in quoted from the cartoon you posted. Its fine if you are done discussing it, but I would like you to consider my words.

Weisshaupt, compromising or sacrificing principles never works; I know you know that.  Perhaps we should start by defining our principles.  One of -- no, my Chief Principle is Truth.  Face the Truth and work from there.  What I believe is Truth is a multi-ethnic society doesn't work in the long run.  Ever. People want to be with their own, and twisting or trying to redefine "own" -- as in, an American Tribe, an American ethnicity -- isn't going to work.  Because it hasn't, despite us giving it our best shot.

So the same goes for a Republic then as well? None of those has ever "worked" either, and we gave this last one our best shot as well...and Madison failed to control the faction problem so we should give up.. right?  Or did Madison's check fail because Government became too Centralized and politics too polar for his check to work??

I am an engineer - first designs often fail. You figure out why, figure out how to address the issue and you try again. Or if the thing can't be fixed, you work around the expected failure  by creating backups, checks  and redundant systems that work in the interim allowing time for the failure to be corrected. yes, human nature is the largest expected failure point in any political  system,  and I am not suggesting we change that. But we can't consider others our own because of ideology? 

I consider you and everyone here "one of my own", because ideologically we want the same things- we both value individual  freedom, the rule of law, and "live and let live" ethics  but what I am hearing is that if I now  reveal myself to be black man, you won't reciprocate the sentiment? If I showed up post collapse in your little town, I wouldn't be welcomed in your enclave? What about the Sicilian? What if someone else in your enclave doesn't consider him "white" enough?  I can't believe that is actually what you mean here.. what bonds people together in a meaningful way is shared tradition, shared experiences ,and shared beliefs, and that is all I am talking about with the American tribe. I don't think I have to twist anything to call everyone here one of my own.



The Left hasn't had a problem with multiculturalism - to the point where they are totally illogical and suicidal  about it - Feminists side with Islamic Terrorists who would genetically mutilate them and lock them in an apartment wearing a burka. Gays side with Muslims who would throw them off of buildings. Jews side with Terrorists to who intend to destroy Israel and every Jew they find. Blacks make threats against the same police who patrol their own neighborhoods to protect them from other blacks.  They reject their own identities  because of their ideology - their belonging to the Master Tribe of enlightened philosophers called Liberals trumps any other concerns.. hell they are even getting Whites to deny and apologize for their whiteness in order to become "good allies" of the enlightened philosopher tribe. 

I don't see any reason why those who believe in liberty  can't do the same thing, and have the same devotion to what they believe in to protect it by denying the liberals their rights, just as their tribe intends to do to us. Our mistake has been in treating them civilly - as equals - as fellow tribe members -when they have as little intention of getting along as the Muslims will when the leftist sheep are finally delivered into their hands.  Allowing them to remain united, while allowing them to divide us isn't going to work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23X14HS4gLk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23X14HS4gLk)

 
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on September 08, 2016, 07:10:57 AM
I think Weisshaupt likes nuance and argument...just a wild guess on my part...might be some retentiveness there, which I can relate too.

I don't think we have to get hung up on race at all, it is going to sort itself out as Pan and Glock mentioned...white folks cherishing Liberty are not going to have to adopt any of the old trappings or pander to attract anybody to the cause nor will they overtly repel anybody...those of "color" who do not share the same zeal for Liberty as we do and who still cling to race-centric views are going to out themselves...there is not going to be any special status afforded anyone merely because of their skin color, there is not going to be any PC bullsh*t, there isn't going to be any quotas, there isn't going to be any handouts, there isn't going to be any of that sh*t!  But there will be Liberty for any and all who abide by Founding Principles.  We'll find out pretty fast who is genuinely honest in their beliefs, isn't that really all that matters?

I like things simple...Principles make than possible.

My two bits...
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Weisshaupt on September 08, 2016, 08:06:20 AM
I don't think we have to get hung up on race at all, it is going to sort itself out as Pan and Glock mentioned......white folks cherishing Liberty are not going to have to adopt any of the old trappings or pander to attract anybody to the cause nor will they overtly repel anybody...those of "color" who do not share the same zeal for Liberty as we do and who still cling to race-centric views are going to out themselves...

Maybe I had a stroke and my brain isn't functioning correctly, but I am pretty sure what I am reading here is that Pan and Glock are going to start clinging to their own race-centric views and will be doing some sorting on that basis. No, I am not sure they are wrong to do so, nor am I thinking ill of them, and I support their right to make such decisions about who they will associate with...  but yes it disturbs me - not because I like to argue ( a compulsive disorder for sure)  - but because of what that potentially means in the bigger picture. There aren't many liberty lovers left and I fear we will need every last one of them in the coming days, plus the idea is an rejection of  conservative principles liberty lovers have  held since Locke's letter on Toleration. Maybe I should  put my money on that stroke.
 
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on September 08, 2016, 11:28:03 AM
Yeah I didn't read it that they were going to start the sorting, just that those wanting (as a result of their own foolishness) to be sorted out would present themselves (primarily because as fools they cannot help themselves) for culling.  I don't think anybody is eagerly awaiting open season on people just because of their skin color...but that is not to say there isn't any eagerness for open season on all manner of Progs, punks and cultists of all races...I think we'll all be equal opportunity dispatchers of domestic enemies.  Nor do I particularly see it as a bad thing if people want to reclaim their Judeo-Christian heritage that was shared by our Founders...if some see that as inherently "white", so what?  I don't think anybody is going to don white sheets and hoods and anybody equating that with Founding Principles and Judeo-Christian heritage are the ones in error, not us.  The beauty of the Founders and their vision of Liberty is that people outside of the Judeo-Christian heritage can enjoy the benefits of that society...so long as they are not undermining it...anybody guilty of the latter is incompatible with true Liberty and should be expelled from our midst no matter their race.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Alphabet Soup on September 08, 2016, 12:57:54 PM
Perhaps I was absent that day but it seems to me that it's been the status quo who have been doing the melanin-based sorting for us (or perhaps to us). I live in a significantly diverse community which means exposure to a wide range of ethnic groups. The fraud that is multiculturalism informs me quite frankly that everyone is entitled to celebrate their heritage and culture.....except you pesky white devils.

This RWNJ was taught by my parents to be largely colorblind. It was only through immersion into liberal dominated environments that I was treated to systemic institutional racism. Despite decades of (small "l") libertarianism that leaned on the notion of "Ill do my thing - you do yours" I've learned that if I didn't watch my own butt no one was going to watch if for me.

As for "race-centric" views, I think I'm gonna need someone to teach me what "white-views" look like cuz that isn't anything that I was ever exposed to. I don't view the world through colored lenses like blacks and latinos do.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on September 08, 2016, 05:18:08 PM
Perhaps I was absent that day but it seems to me that it's been the status quo who have been doing the melanin-based sorting for us (or perhaps to us). I live in a significantly diverse community which means exposure to a wide range of ethnic groups. The fraud that is multiculturalism informs me quite frankly that everyone is entitled to celebrate their heritage and culture.....except you pesky white devils.

This RWNJ was taught by my parents to be largely colorblind. It was only through immersion into liberal dominated environments that I was treated to systemic institutional racism. Despite decades of (small "l") libertarianism that leaned on the notion of "Ill do my thing - you do yours" I've learned that if I didn't watch my own butt no one was going to watch if for me.

As for "race-centric" views, I think I'm gonna need someone to teach me what "white-views" look like cuz that isn't anything that I was ever exposed to. I don't view the world through colored lenses like blacks and latinos do.

I'm whichu...

But uhh, I dunno, maybe "white-views" look like this?

http://www.weaselzippers.us/293796-white-week-fliers-prompt-protest-investigation-on-kentucky-campus/ (http://www.weaselzippers.us/293796-white-week-fliers-prompt-protest-investigation-on-kentucky-campus/)

 ::ohno::

OMG, poor oppressed peeps-o-color living in such tyranny and oppression!  Honestly, I don't know wtf they are doing here...the message never ends, hate and harrassment everywhere, nothing ever changes...you'd think they'd flee to safer harbors, eh?

WTF is wrong with these people?  Maybe they like the abuse...fear of fleeing and having not a damned thing to bitch about, eh?

I mean the outright vicious racism is everywhere!  Look?!  They named a parasite, a blood fluke flatworm, Baracktrema obamai (http://www.popsci.com/newly-discovered-blood-fluke-is-named-after-obama) after our beloved black prez, and by distant relatives no less!

Is there no shame?  How long must these people endure such oppression before fleeing?!  Are they stupid or what?!

 ::laughonfloor::


Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Glock32 on September 08, 2016, 07:10:47 PM
My position is based on this: there is a clear and present danger to the continued existence of Western Civilization.  Resistance against those carrying out this destruction must be packaged in some sort of cultural vehicle that resonates with people.  Traditional conservative political parties have failed pretty badly and proven themselves incapable of being that vehicle.  So what is getting traction instead?  The nascent neo-nationalism we see sprouting in Europe.  It's getting traction because it pushes some button built into populations.  It doesn't even require focus grouping or educating people on a party platform.  Is it just collectivism of another sort?  Perhaps.  I don't see other efforts working as well though, and we're in the 11th hour already.

We are now in the era of post-conservatism.  The Alt-Right gets this.  I'm reminded of something they tell you when you're training for self-defense, combat, or other types of emergency response: you will always fall back on your training rudiments.  In particular a lot of martial training emphasizes gross motor skills over finesse, the theory being that in distress gross movements are easier to accomplish.  I think the Culture War is similar.  People aren't resonating with the editorial board at the National Review, but they are resonating with "this is my nation, these are my people."
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Weisshaupt on September 08, 2016, 08:09:19 PM
Traditional conservative political parties have failed pretty badly and proven themselves incapable of being that vehicle.

Well no. There has been a group of people pretending to be conservative and running a conservative party who were in fact fully owned and controlled by  the enemies of western civilization. There may be reasons and problems with conservatives in general  why that was allowed to go on so long, but an actual conservative party hasn't really been tried because we had this fake bs one people supported instead of starting a new real  one. 


  So what is getting traction instead?  The nascent neo-nationalism we see sprouting in Europe.  It's getting traction because it pushes some button built into populations.  It doesn't even require focus grouping or educating people on a party platform.  Is it just collectivism of another sort?  Perhaps.  I don't see other efforts working as well though, and we're in the 11th hour already.

Yes,  the button is "belonging" 

Quote
  People aren't resonating with the editorial board at the National Review, but they are resonating with "this is my nation, these are my people."

"our nation and our people"  - as Mal said to Simon- That doesn't include you unless I conjure it does.

But until you define those terms, and explicitly state what they mean in terms of behavior and beliefs,   anyone can fill in the blank to satisfy themselves. It may be helpful in winning elections, but its also dangerous depending on what those terms eventually get defined as. In NAZI Germany they got defined as Aryan, and if you didn't fit that description..  watch out.  Patriotism is a tool for uniting  people under a common standard - but it matters what that standard is --   point it the wrong way and it becomes a weapon - and  in many ways it relies on having someone to point it at to be effective.  And sure, there are illegals and Islamic people who deserve it, but there will be many more who don't. There will be collateral damage and you will turn away people who could have been allies.
And perhaps that is necessary for us to successfully protect "our nation and our people"  - however that is defined.  Its the definition we end up with that I fear.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Pandora on September 08, 2016, 09:24:09 PM
Quote
Its the definition we end up with that I fear.

I have felt that sort of fear, not for where we end up, but how we get there.

White people are already being hunted, harassed and discriminated against.  So, what's your move?
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Glock32 on September 08, 2016, 11:25:29 PM
It doesn't matter, because it has already been decided for us.  Every other group of people already thinks and acts tribal.  When they perceive themselves threatened as in a post-collapse world, their tribal identity will only intensify.  It's like what happens inside prisons. I'm prepared to accept the reality of this arrangement.  It must be why there are different tribes in the first place.

I was for a long time prepared to believe in the creedal nation, but look what has resulted from it.  Every variety of non-white has been organized and made militant against the hated white man.  It will always be so. Trying to make it work is so much pissing in the wind.  We knew what our "American nation" looked like prior to 1965.  It's why immigration law specifically favored compatible immigrants, mostly from Europe.  It's been the virtual inverse of that since 1965 and now instead of an American nation we have dozens of nations that happen to exist on the land mass called the USA. Frankly, it's fanciful to expect to meld them all into a single national identity based on veneration of the Founding Fathers. That ship long since sailed.

Something has changed with my perception of things.  I think a lot of it has to do with the invasion of Europe.  The Camp of Saints used to be a fictional reference that seemed increasingly likely, until suddenly it's no longer just likely but actual reality.  The Founder's Republic is dead and not coming back.  That admission has now, for me, called into question the purpose of conservatism.  What's the point anymore?  Another site put it well: "Conservatism couldn't even conserve the women's bathroom"  American Conservatism...50 years of failure.  I'm more interested now in figuring out how to establish a human seed vault so that civilization might germinate again some day.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on September 09, 2016, 07:18:56 AM
Quote
Its the definition we end up with that I fear.

I have felt that sort of fear, not for where we end up, but how we get there.

White people are already being hunted, harassed and discriminated against.  So, what's your move?

I think Weisshaupt is looking for something pristine...but it's like looking really hard to find that one little flower growing out of a gigantic mound of crap...there's going to be weeds...I don't know what he thinks the right answer is and we can have him address that if he can but to me and I am guessing to you and Glock and others it probably doesn't matter.  I told people 20 years ago and have ever since said that if this country ever imploded it would make the breakup of the former Yugoslavia look like a Boy Scout Jamboree...the relentless demonizing of our heritage, the non-stop denigration of the Principles and morals that made this nation the envy of the world, the systematic progressive conditioning, the cowardice of the only available so-called opposition party, the hatred directed at whites and especially white males, the complicity of the press and crony capitalists, all of that crap...decades and lifetimes worth of bullsh*t people have had to navigate...is going to release megatons of suppressed angst...and there will be excesses, how can there not be?  The Progs, Pubbies, Press, Cronys and Criminals have left us no other choice...it is surrender to them...or something else.  I think the time for somebody to tap into that energy, translate it into any kind of movement with a means to reverse course before it is too late and restore the Republic to its Founding Principles and Founding Heritage has passed.  Our shot was the Reagan Revolution...and it was hijacked by E-GOP operatives and nothing challenged it...except for the Tea Party for a brief moment, but then it's fractured leadership combined with E-GOP vindictiveness and statist thuggery by the Obama Regime killed it.  I have no illusions about Trump or what a Trump administration will accomplish...bottom line it buys time and maybe puts a few more wrinkles in the narrative making it harder for the statists when the shat hits the fan.  But when the snap comes...sh*t will happen...we'll all be very very tribal.  What coalesces afterward?  Who knows.  That's where Glock's "human seed vault" comes into play.  Hopefully the predominant strain in these vaults produces a society that once again values Liberty as we and our distant Founders understand it.  Some of us may find out, many of us will not...but if I fall in the latter category...I hope I fought for those that do.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Pandora on September 09, 2016, 07:32:48 AM
Good post, Libertas, and Glock's as well.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Weisshaupt on September 09, 2016, 11:17:28 AM
White people are already being hunted, harassed and discriminated against.  So, what's your move?

To continue prepping for the things I can't avoid, and getting ready to give aid to insurrectionists, and what little force I can provide to the initiative while defending the borders of mine and my neighbor's property.  If race war against conservative Americans who happen to be Hispanics is going to happen, then my community is already lost.

It doesn't matter, because it has already been decided for us.  Every other group of people already thinks and acts tribal.  When they perceive themselves threatened as in a post-collapse world, their tribal identity will only intensify.  It's like what happens inside prisons. I'm prepared to accept the reality of this arrangement.  It must be why there are different tribes in the first place.

I agree.  This is exactly why I think ex-pats are going to be in trouble post SHTF. -

Perhaps we need a few definitions, because I think words like "Tribe", "Ethnicity", "Race","Creed"  and "Culture" are being used almost interchangeably. They are related, but they aren't the same.

Tribes are groups of people in a mono-culture  usually related by blood ( but not always)   and those organizations are communistic and cohesion depends on  personal knowledge of others and whom you can depend on.

Ethnicity - identification of a cultural tradition "inherent" in an individual  based on genealogy.

(https://shortcut-test2.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/role_template_image/attachment/112306/default_ubuntu-goode.jpg)
A Person of  South African Heritage

Race -  Merriam Webster actually has this : "a class or kind of people unified by shared interests, habits, or characteristics" as a possible definition along with "a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock" -- but basically I think for the purposes of this discussion, I think it can be summed up by  sorting  humans into a category via a particular set of visual cues.

(http://cimg.tvgcdn.net/i/r/2015/06/16/f091461b-64ac-4a3e-89e9-c5d88ca7df81/resize/900x600/260439df46d4ea61a32d0b0b494f9e27/150616-news-dolezal.jpg)

A member of the Black Race.

Culture  - A collection of rules, values, traditions, rituals and beliefs shared and practiced  by a group of people.

Creed - essentially  the  rules, values and beliefs of a culture ( which may imply rituals and traditions)

The Pictures,  while meant to be humorous,  also point out that Race and Ethnicity are - of their nature - subjective.
What is Obama's ethnicity?

Did you think "Black"? But his Mom was white. Can you choose his ethnicity by looking at him? Or can he choose it for himself? Do we decide after seeing how he acts - and which set of cultural norms he adheres to?   Can  "Leftist A-hole" be considered an Ethnicity  or a culture?

Hitler Used Race BECAUSE its ambiguous.  He could arrest anyone he wanted, accuse them of Jewish Blood and Bingo! Now he is an enemy of the State.  Even if he was blond and blue eyed.

I was for a long time prepared to believe in the creedal nation, but look what has resulted from it.

This seems to imply you think a nation based on Creed will not work.  The Catholic Church was basically the default Government of Europe for Centuries, able to muster an army from kingdoms and City-states all over the continent - sure they were "white" - but they were not of the same ethnicity- they had different cultures and traditions, and had only the Creed of the Catholic church in common.. . .  Likewise early Islamic Caliphates covered huge areas, integrated many different tribal customs, but Islam was the creed that bound them together ( at sword point of course)   The Jews considered themselves a Nation without a country for much of their history - in much the same way  as we refer to Indian Tribes as nations. And the Jews are multi racial  (http://popchassid.com/10-photos-to-remind-you-that-jews-dont-fit-into-a-stereotype-and-never-have/)- its passed through the mother. 


Every variety of non-white has been organized and made militant against the hated white man.  It will always be so. Trying to make it work is so much pissing in the wind. 

Even within in a tribe they fought over who would lead, and there were intrigues and betrayals-  particularity if the tribe became large enough - say 200-300 members when personal knowledge of everyone in the tribe was no longer possible -  those groups would splinter. They may make alliances etc, but they were no longer a single tribe. .

China was conquered how many times, but how many different tribes and clans? Do you think there is such a thing as a genetically pure "Chinese" (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/07/how-chinese-genetics-is-like-chinese-food/) but do we doubt that  the China is a nation or Stable as a culture? Are they pissing in the wind and have been for millennia?

It will always be true  that group  differences will be arbitrarily seized upon and exploited to sow dissent and carve  out an area of power within any human sociological structure -  If its not skin color, it will be eye color, or hair color, or cheekbone structure, or ass size, or tattoos.

(http://nancyebailey.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/sneetch.jpg)

But its not a given that every culture will succumb to such attacks. China remained culturally Chinese, no matter who conquered them. The real question is how they managed to do it.  The point is that Multi-race and multi-ethnic societies have been formed and have lasted for years -and I think that happens when the Creed is loose and local areas are left alone to practice what sub-cultures they wish. Is the centralization of power and vast treasuries to be looted that provide the incentives for one-size fits all legislation and the payments of tributes to subcultures out of the public funds.   The White Man - having formed the systems and culture that allowed him to become prosperous and successful makes him the target for looting by all of the creeds, clans, cultures and tribes who are less successful.

Quote
“Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all right-thinking people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.

This is known as "bad luck.”

? Robert A. Heinlein

Our skin color is just the excuse. Its not the cause.

It's been the virtual inverse of that since 1965 and now instead of an American nation we have dozens of nations that happen to exist on the land mass called the USA. Frankly, it's fanciful to expect to meld them all into a single national identity based on veneration of the Founding Fathers. That ship long since sailed.

It failed because we allowed people of a different and conflicting creed to settle and prosper here, and then allowed power to become more and more centralized. No, I understand that these others  will not join our creed. They aren't Americans in anything but a geographic sense.

 Islam is such a creed, but not at the moment the most threatening one--  that would be the creed of the Left-- because they have created a system  - like that  of the Catholic Church in the Dark ages - where you can be ethnic,  as long as you don't commit heresy.  Commit Heresy and you are an Uncle Tom, an inauthentic Gay, not a real woman, not a good White Ally  and so forth. You can be whatever you want to be - even the opposite sex - as long as you are liberal and support the liberal herd agenda.    The left  tied and enforced  ethnic identity in such a way that it entails  being a Good liberal. The Right FAILED to do this when the new immigrants - and we allowed the non -immigrants to be recruited into other creeds and tribes.  Its not that such an organization is impossible,  its that our principles made it repugnant to us to force our principles upon others living next to us.  That is the flaw. One the Left doesn't share.

 We are not under attack from blacks, we are under attack from Statists who happen to identify as black. The Blacks are just the paid by  EBT shock troops on the front lines. 
We will either destroy them or they  destroy us and then themselves  -through the same divisions and creed  they have promoted .

The Founder's Republic is dead and not coming back.  That admission has now, for me, called into question the purpose of conservatism.  What's the point anymore?  Another site put it well: "Conservatism couldn't even conserve the women's bathroom"  American Conservatism...50 years of failure.  I'm more interested now in figuring out how to establish a human seed vault so that civilization might germinate again some day.

Yes. The Republic is Dead.  Does that mean Christian Morality changes?  Because that is still where the  principles of the former United States originated. The GOP betrayed us,  they didn't defend the woman's bathroom, because like Benedict Arnold they were planning all along to to surrender it to the enemy. Conservatives failed to demand real leadership, and failed to fight well in the culture wars,  but that doesn't mean the ideas behind them were wrong. It means that they allowed their own civility ( and laziness ) to hamper their ability to protect themselves and their creed.  Its like when the Liberals were going on about Bush breaking the Geneva Convention rules wen we weren't even fighting a Nation that had signed them. Hell - they  did not even wear uniforms- but the left demanded we treat them as if they had. . The left was very successful following Alkinski's dictate to make us live up to our own rules. And we let them.  Our principles didn't fail- we turned the other cheek too many times. Way past Seven times Seventy.

And yes in the coming conflict we are going to have to rely on tribe - a group of people we know and trust, with whom we will knowingly share our effort and resources, wit confidence that others in the group will do the same. If you live in an area where you can select members that are all white,  or all with blue eyes,  or all with red hair, or all with stars upon thars, and still successfully survive and create that seedbank, then  more power to you. ( but then I do wonder what seeds you are trying to preserve)   In my area, if it becomes a race war DESPITE the fact we share a common creed, we will  be wiped out by each other and the  Statist forces will do everything they can to exacerbate that conflict. .  They would love it if my little rural conservative town tore itself apart over our skin color, and they could just come in, mop up and seize the farmland.


I think Weisshaupt is looking for something pristine...but it's like looking really hard to find that one little flower growing out of a gigantic mound of crap...there's going to be weeds...I don't know what he thinks the right answer is and we can have him address that if he can but to me and I am guessing to you and Glock and others it probably doesn't matter. 

The right answer for me is and always will be individual freedom and individual merit. Yes, its a natural and instinctual human tendency  to bond with others over superficial physical characteristics. Its also a natural and instinctual human tendency  to kill "the other". Heck its a natural and instinctual human tendency  to break all 10 Commandments and behave little better than an Animal in the wild.  Civilization is largely about suppressing and harnessing those tendencies- first for a greater chance of survival and then for a greater chance of prosperity and happiness. If the goal is to preserve Civilization,  you aren't doing it by going back to primitive definitions of the other based on physical characteristics.  Its easy. It will work.  It feels right.   So does sleeping with your neighbors wife if you  have no moral compass.

is going to release megatons of suppressed angst...and there will be excesses, how can there not be? 

Of of the hardest things to do is a war is not loose what  you are fighting for ( civilization)  in a wholly uncivilized environment ( war)
But I have noticed if you don't aim at a target, or don't ever hit the mark. You probably won't even come close.


  I think the time for somebody to tap into that energy, translate it into any kind of movement with a means to reverse course before it is too late and restore the Republic to its Founding Principles and Founding Heritage has passed.

You can't restore the republic. Its gone. We can start a new one someday, possibly.  The truths are self-evident. Even if we are all wiped out, they can be rediscovered,  and at some point a fertile ground will present itself -- if just via chance or human error in a police state. It would be better, however, if what we have learned and the tale of our failure be part of the  seeds we preserve so the future can learn from it, as the founders attempted to learn from  failures in Greece, Rome and elsewhere. I am not yet willing to call it quits on these ideas. 

Part of what we are fighting here is the fact that the only people have a use for Liberty are that segment of the population who need it because they think for themselves. At least 1/3 and possibly 2/3s of the human race are simply happy to follow orders, live in a tribal group and feel like the belong. "Baaa. Baaaa. I am a Sheep! That's Awesome. I am a sheep too! Baaa"  The tribe keeps them safe. As long as they do as others do,  they sink or swim together, and they are fine with that.  They read the Declaration of Independence and they DO NOT UNDERSTAND why anyone would risk their life to fight the government. For liberty? The Kardashians  are on,  and my house is warm, an I have a dinner in the oven.  What is your problem? Cavemen don't want liberty- they want comfort.  Liberty is a esoteric civilized concept based on individuals.. and cavemen  identity- as far as they are aware of having one-- is completely tribal.  And I think this is where Pan and Glock's understanding of te situation come from..  that because 2/3 of the human race is this dull sort of animal, and  you can't beat em - you can't get them to understand your creed because they are incapable of doing so,  so you give up and  join them on the basis of something they CAN understand.

 America probably only came about because a mass migration to a new land gave  those with the need for freedom from the herd a way  to find it. The Sheep had no interest in colonization - its hard, and you need to think for yourself to survive because you are encountering new challenges and new problems that the Herd rules won't necessarily get you through. But once colonized, and prosperity reigns,  the comfort seeking cavemen show up in droves. But the freedom seekers - that small minority Heinlein talks about - are the ones who ave always pushed forward and tried new things - they need the freedom to do so -- and as a survival trait every herd of humans has that "nutjob" who won't conform who suddenly discovers this Fire thingy, invents a tool, or eventually invents a Constitutional Republic. Those people are your tribe. You aren't like those "other humans"  ( And I bet every one of you has used that phrase at least in your minds)

We  are living in the largest conglomeration of Free-Thinking humans ever assembled on this planet - descended by an even larger population of free thinkers who fled Europe and other places - I think that is the seedbank that we need to preserve though this, and it doesn't come in a certain color, a certain ethnicity, and not all of them have stars upon thars.  But You meet them individually , and you know though, don't you? And that is the point -  your tribe -  - contains people you know and trust. You select them based on Merit - on the skills they bring, on what they can contribute to the group. Or  one  can pick them by color or some other characteristic , and hope the two are correlated well enough for that to work.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on September 09, 2016, 12:18:07 PM

We  are living in the largest conglomeration of Free-Thinking humans ever assembled on this planet - descended by an even larger population of free thinkers who fled Europe and other places - I think that is the seedbank that we need to preserve though this, and it doesn't come in a certain color, a certain ethnicity, and not all of them have stars upon thars.  But You meet them individually , and you know though, don't you? And that is the point -  your tribe -  - contains people you know and trust. You select them based on Merit - on the skills they bring, on what they can contribute to the group. Or  one  can pick them by color or some other characteristic , and hope the two are correlated well enough for that to work.

Well your are just begging for statistics, aren't you?  Well, I am not going to chase after specifics, so...let's play with loose generalities for arguments sake.

I don't disagree with any of the above...but you seem stuck on race...or you think others are...either way...to the point: I, as a Liberty-centric Founders-revering believer in the Almighty and our God-given rights and the morality of my Judeo-Christian upbringing have always and still to this day judge each and every person I meet according to their character and merit.  I will either be the best friend you will ever have...or your worst nightmare...people do have it within their ability to choose which is more desirable to witness.  Having said that...there are certain traits that, well, let's just say they stick out and they will surface rather quickly without much prodding...I don't know what tack others may choose, but if I encounter someone hostile to Liberty...they better high-tail it outta my sight faster than bullets fly.  Some of these traits may be telegraphed in advance by indiscreet self-advertising, some advertising may be more subtle than others...these are what may be termed "indicators" putting a Liberty-centric person on crosshair mode...and it is entirely possible these indicators can have direct racial relationships...pc-oriented types who will soon be culled from the seed bank call this "profiling".  It is going to happen.  Now, what percentage of certain ethnic groups exhibit the signs and traits we are talking about...who cares?  I'm not interested in numbers, just probabilities so that I can protect me and mine.  Others can fuss over ethnicity...I'll fuss over survival. 
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Glock32 on September 09, 2016, 01:18:01 PM
I think the conclusion you can draw from this back and forth is that we are entering the Undiscovered Country.  Nobody knows how things are going to go.  It's speculation, some of it informed by history and some of it nothing more than a wild ass guess.

To Libertas' point:

Quote
"Some of these traits may be telegraphed in advance by indiscreet self-advertising, some advertising may be more subtle than others...these are what may be termed "indicators" putting a Liberty-centric person on crosshair mode...and it is entirely possible these indicators can have direct racial relationships"

i.e.  that there is likely to be overlap between desirable mental/moral traits and racial traits, that is what I think will always represent a unique problem in multiracial societies.  It won't go unnoticed if the people you deem as having desirable mental and moral traits just so happen to be mostly white people, while a disproportionate number of undesirables just so happen to be black.  It's the gift that will keep on giving to provocateurs and other sh*t-stirrers.  And would the grievances be limited just to those who have been deemed undesirable?  What about the blacks who have been accepted as having quality mental and moral traits, will they be fine with accepting that they're a lucky outlier?  Or will they feel aggrieved on behalf of their fellow blacks who were rejected, and work to manipulate the "tribe" so that membership is broadened for their sake?  It's true that sh*t-stirrers can find or invent fault lines in any nation, even an homogeneous one, but it's vastly easier in societies that are obviously heterogeneous.

Nobody knows how this is going to go.  What I do know is that it's going to be much uglier and bloodier than it needed to be, and that is entirely because the Left was hellbent on initiating our civilization's self-destruct mechanism and it is now too late to override.

! No longer available (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQJ2DlKfGuE#)
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Weisshaupt on September 09, 2016, 04:35:21 PM
i.e.  that there is likely to be overlap between desirable mental/moral traits and racial traits, that is what I think will always represent a unique problem in multiracial societies.  It won't go unnoticed if the people you deem as having desirable mental and moral traits just so happen to be mostly white people, while a disproportionate number of undesirables just so happen to be black.

And it won't go noticed if its the Jews, or people with red hair, or members of the Masons, or if its only people with a star upon thar.  It will happen in any society - multi-cultural, multi race, or in a mono culture with only purple people. If there is a correlation between behavior and some superficial outward characteristics it will be noticed and exploited. Look at how the Irish were treated at the turn of the last century - and they were White in a predominantly white society.  Humans are at heart behaviorists - and its the correlation between that and some other nice and visible trait that leads to the economization of knowledge via stereotypes - collections of those  indicators Libertas mentions. . Race comes up a lot because its the most visible and is most often correlated to  a given culture - the norms of which dictate a particular set of behaviors and values , which in turn lead to a differing set of results. There is a hell of an (ethnic)  difference in a Black form the American South and one from Jamaica , or Morocco. So yeah, Glock, its probably easier to find and exploit those fault lines in a multi ethnic/multi racial nation. But I would argue its only marginally harder in a mono-culture. The Left has successfully exploited the inherent natural differences between men and women - and probably to greater overall effect and damage  ( because EVERYONE must interact with the opposite sex and not everyone comes into contact with different races every day)   and you are going to have sexually based differences  in every society unless you Brave New World it with sexless babies grown in test tubes from Male and Female donors kept in out of sight cages somewhere. Is it that much harder to exploit sex differences vs skin color differences?

 I really don't think you are gaining much protection from these sh*t-stirrers by having a single race society or tribe, and you are loosing the ideas, inventions and brainstorming that come about when people with vastly different world views and experiences  interact- and in a survival situation having multiple ideas, approaches and options to a problem can become an advantage..

  And would the grievances be limited just to those who have been deemed undesirable?  What about the blacks who have been accepted as having quality mental and moral traits, will they be fine with accepting that they're a lucky outlier?  Or will they feel aggrieved on behalf of their fellow blacks who were rejected, and work to manipulate the "tribe" so that membership is broadened for their sake?

In my experience,  they know perfectly well they are an outlier. They know perfectly well, because like us, they can think for themselves and made a conscious choice to not follow the herd. When I was at Columbia University in the early 90s, I knew a number of other black students (no I never met or saw Barry Sotero), and they had no problem telling you what was wrong with other blacks.  I had one such friend  (correctly) berate me for giving another black guy a pass on being an asshole because I didn't want to seem racist.  "No!" he said, and with evident anger, " You apply the same standard to everyone. If he is an asshole , you call him an asshole and give him the gift of the same honest feedback you would give to a white that they are an asshole. As it is that  Nigger is never going to hear it and he is never going to change. You are hurting him. You are being Racist." This as held true whenever I have met a  Black person in my profession-  they are eager to tell you why the god damn grievance mongers are wrong and how much they hate other blacks screwing it up for them by creating, perpetuating and validating  a  stereotype  of bad behavior. Like us they know they aren't like the "other humans"  - before the rampant affrimative action without merit movement really got started,  the only Blacks who has "made it" were blacks  who had actively rejected American-Black ethnicity ( If you read "White Liberals, Black Rednecks" , Sowell gives  a compelling picture of where that ethnicity originates) and adopted our culture of success and they looked down on those in their own race who had tried to pull them back down when they tried to get out.

 "Now, what percentage of certain ethnic groups exhibit the signs and traits we are talking about...who cares?  I'm not interested in numbers, just probabilities so that I can protect me and mine.  Others can fuss over ethnicity...I'll fuss over survival. " 

Pretty much were I am at. And I am not turning away anyone with a like mind  and a strong back who can aid my survival, because I don't have an escape pod with a hibernation chamber.  I do have a cat, however.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on September 12, 2016, 07:38:03 AM
Heh, now you got me thinking of cats...have to rethink having them "fixed" and "de-clawed"...gonna need progeny and weapons to keep (insert dwelling here) free of pests.

 ;)
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Weisshaupt on September 12, 2016, 09:04:32 AM
Heh, now you got me thinking of cats...have to rethink having them "fixed" and "de-clawed"...gonna need progeny and weapons to keep (insert dwelling here) free of pests.

 ;)

Well,  You will constantly loose them to people looking for meat.. and its a shame by my current set are neutered -- My Tom Cat is the sweetest guy( and was before we snipped him.. which went wrong and he started spraying anyway.. he hid one from us..)   - and his sister I probably would have refused to spay-  she was also just a really pleasant cat. She was also buff white, and its just not good camouflage.  One day she just never came home.  Oh well,  the neighbors never spay or neuter their cats. That is where my Tom came from. Maybe get a few more later..

Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on September 12, 2016, 12:15:21 PM
Heh, now you got me thinking of cats...have to rethink having them "fixed" and "de-clawed"...gonna need progeny and weapons to keep (insert dwelling here) free of pests.

 ;)

Well,  You will constantly loose them to people looking for meat.. and its a shame by my current set are neutered -- My Tom Cat is the sweetest guy( and was before we snipped him.. which went wrong and he started spraying anyway.. he hid one from us..)   - and his sister I probably would have refused to spay-  she was also just a really pleasant cat. She was also buff white, and its just not good camouflage.  One day she just never came home.  Oh well,  the neighbors never spay or neuter their cats. That is where my Tom came from. Maybe get a few more later..

 ::laughonfloor::

As for cat (and dog, etc) eaters...well, if the cat wanders off too far...can't always be helped...but (regardless if true or not) put signs out on bodies marking your boundary warning all trespassers what awaits them.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Glock32 on September 30, 2016, 11:14:32 AM
http://anti-gnostic.blogspot.com/2016/09/the-gay-feminist-democratic-rainbow.html (http://anti-gnostic.blogspot.com/2016/09/the-gay-feminist-democratic-rainbow.html)


Quote
The Left continues its rampage through the institutions. Being the Left, of course, they never stop until somebody or until circumstances stop them. And, to mount a particular hobby horse, ideological conservatism simply lacks the tools to oppose the Long March. I can hear the dialectic already: "How can you POSSIBLY deny opportunities for advancement to this brave homosexual/transgendered/female veteran? HAVE YOU NO SHAME SIR?"

The conservative--the espouser of meritocracy, equality before the law, and support for the politically popular military--can only gulp back his words and cast desperately for another line to draw in the sand.
.
.
.
The Right is hoisted on its own petard. If indeed all men are "created equal," then by God they are, and biological and social reality be damned. If we're a Proposition Nation, and a Propositional American says, "Give me your tired, your poor," then tired and poor we shall have.

A dedication to conserving the existence and well-being of a discrete people in their geographic redoubt elides these ideological conundrums completely, but conservatives are trapped by their own universalist rhetoric.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on September 30, 2016, 11:55:05 AM
(http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss291/libertasinfinitio/Warnings/BSDetector.gif)

WTF?  Not everybody is a gutless coward...just like not everybody is a real Conservative or a true lover of Liberty and Freedom!

Let me illustrate!

1 - Low-life Progressive Agitator - "How can you POSSIBLY deny opportunities for advancement to this brave homosexual/transgendered/female veteran? HAVE YOU NO SHAME SIR?"

2 - Gutless coward - (crickets)

3 - Unflinching believer in Liberty, Freedom and Founding Principles - "Opportunites for people of confused and/or weaker genders outside of combat roles exist...and many more opportunities exist in the civilian sector.  There is no Constitutional or rational source to cite granting every person of whatever background real, imagined or otherwise that guarantees automatic opportunity.  I'm sorry reality is not working out for you, but this is the military...we break things and kill people...in order to preserve the freedom and liberty for all of our citizens, even citizens as f**ked up in the head as you.  There is equality and choice in this nation, but there are no quotas, no set asides, no shortcuts or line cutting, no affirmative action.  I'm sorry reality is not working out for you and no, I don't care if you suck cock and take it up the ass or play clam-bumber or dress as man/woman/whatever...what you do in private as a civilian is not my concern...but there is no room for that bullsh*t when we are deep in the sh*t and having to kill the enemy...we don't have time to wonder if you're off blowing someone instead of doing your job and covering my ass...because if you are not doing your job I'll shoot you and throw your corpse at the edge of the foxhole and use it as a sandbag!  Understand or not, that's the way it is going to be."

Done!



Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Glock32 on September 30, 2016, 12:24:52 PM
Yes, but I think the author of that article has a point.  It's something we have observed here many times as well, that conservatism has unconsciously internalized so many of the Left's rhetorical premises that it intellectually disarms itself and even becomes an unwitting enforcer of the Left's assumptions.  That's why the pejorative "cuckservative" is so apropos; conservatism is the bird earnestly tending to the chicks hatched from another bird's eggs.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on September 30, 2016, 12:30:50 PM
Sure, but like anything...it is only true if people let it be true.  And just because a bunch of idiots made it true doesn't mean everybody is an idiot...it just means the real idiots are those that didn't push back...and let a term get hijacked.  If the people being jacked refused to take it, it would have never been jacked...thus terms like "cuckservative" wouldn't have been created.  I get the point...I just deny having anything to do with it. 
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Glock32 on September 30, 2016, 12:43:58 PM
I think this sort of ties in with IDP's post the other day about the "alt right" and what it even means.  It's a nebulous term but still has meaning in the sense that it's people who hold with the values that conservatism purports to represent but in practice has proven incapable of advancing or defending, and for a variety of reasons.

Look for instance at how many "conservatives" are in favor of immigration because "we're a nation of immigrants."  Uhh, that would be news to the conservatives of 50 years ago.  Mainstream American conservatism has fallen into the same trap that European conservatives fell into.  The conservative parties of Europe ended up promoting themselves as being merely better administrators and caretakers of the Left wing state's apparatus.  The idea that they should promote themselves as the dismantlers of the Left wing apparatus flew the nest some time ago.

I guess what I am getting at is that I now view myself as something "other than conservative" to the extent that I see no hope in American conservatism.  It has a godawful batting average.  It never even figured out there was a Culture War raging all around it.  Conservatives today run for office by promising to protect the Social Security trust fund.

Opposition to Leftism will have a new vehicle.  I don't know yet what the particulars of it are going to look like, but the abstract gut check aspect of it is already being felt and is being given imprecise terms like "alt right." In a way I find it more exciting than anything in the past 30 years, because opposition to the Left is materializing in unexpected ways and from unexpected corners.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on September 30, 2016, 12:58:31 PM
Yeah, from a branding standpoint...they/them...tarnished the brand by accepting the persistent incrementalism...bad on them...no shame us though, we warned them, they blew us off or blamed us...and the Left won...

Time to sh*tcan that label and everything with it, it is tainted.  It stinks to be forced to throw away something you didn't destroy, but...what other option is there?

All we can do is start over...and stomp into oblivion anybody trying to pull that crap on us again.  None of this "we'll pushback or fight later crap"...we'll stomp their heads into mush at first offense!
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Pandora on September 30, 2016, 01:32:03 PM
Quote
... I guess what I am getting at is that I now view myself as something "other than conservative" to the extent that I see no hope in American conservatism.

Well, YAH.  At this point, what the hell are "Conservatives" conserving?  The Left's incremental march through every institution?  We've seen it all and said it many times:  "The conservative{s} ...... ended up promoting themselves as being merely better administrators and caretakers of the Left wing state's apparatus.  The idea that they should promote themselves as the dismantlers of the Left wing apparatus flew the nest some time ago." per Glock, again.

The Constitution and The Bill of Rights are the only thing deserving of conservation and restoration.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on October 02, 2016, 07:39:04 PM
Quote
... I guess what I am getting at is that I now view myself as something "other than conservative" to the extent that I see no hope in American conservatism.

Well, YAH.  At this point, what the hell are "Conservatives" conserving?  The Left's incremental march through every institution?  We've seen it all and said it many times:  "The conservative{s} ...... ended up promoting themselves as being merely better administrators and caretakers of the Left wing state's apparatus.  The idea that they should promote themselves as the dismantlers of the Left wing apparatus flew the nest some time ago." per Glock, again.

The Constitution and The Bill of Rights are the only thing deserving of conservation and restoration.

AMEN!
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Glock32 on October 04, 2016, 10:01:16 AM
At this point, barely a month before the election, it is really looking like Hillary has this wrapped up.  Trump's first debate was a dumpster fire, they've been able to keep her upright and lucid long enough for public appearances, and the supposed Wikileaks bombshell was a giant Nothing Burger.

She has the momentum and it looks like she's going to coast to a comfortable EC victory.  This might be for the best.  A Trump presidency would end up being another W. presidency -- nothing changing, but lulling the Right-minded back to doze off in their easy chair in front of Monday Night Football.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on October 04, 2016, 11:35:04 AM
And this segment of "Let It Burn" is brought to you by ZombieMax...and remember, nothing works better than ZombieMax but use the double-tap just be sure!

 ::rockets::

ETA - Could be right though, Hitlery has Jeh "Jihad" Johnson ready to ensure electoral integrity this November!  Whew, what a fvcking relief (for Progressive treasonous scum)!

http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/27/politics/cybersecurity-rigged-election-homeland-security/ (http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/27/politics/cybersecurity-rigged-election-homeland-security/)

"Both Trump and his Democratic rival, Hillary Clinton, said at Monday's debate that they would respect the election results."

Better be one promise to break...there be a lot of sh*tty shenanigans going down...and I bet these states experience "heavy" turnout!   ;)

Get ready...full-blown revolt could be in the offing...God willing!

ETA #2 - http://kunstler.com/clusterf**k-nation/sizing-up-the-endgame/ (http://kunstler.com/clusterf**k-nation/sizing-up-the-endgame/)

Yeah...that bit at the end?  That's a hard to actually do...pretty sure I can't do that.  Plus, I gotta make it look worse of a steal or what's the point?

ETA #3 - Re: Wiki Dud...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-04/julian-assange-talks-live-wikileaks-10-year-anniversary-live-stream (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-04/julian-assange-talks-live-wikileaks-10-year-anniversary-live-stream)

Best comment goes to (drumroll)...

I am a Man I am...  Au Member Oct 4, 2016 6:10 AM
Assange went Jerry Rivers on us, was afraid of that, he neads to learn to manage ecpectations.

Pffffffffffffffffffffft!
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Glock32 on October 04, 2016, 12:32:13 PM
A great comment I saw earlier today:

"Julian Assange's message for everyone was 'Be sure to drink your Ovaltine!'"
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on October 04, 2016, 05:27:25 PM
Bwuuuhahaaa!
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Glock32 on October 07, 2016, 01:40:05 PM
Here's another good article on our new post-conservative reality -- The Case Against "the Conservative Case" (http://amgreatness.com/2016/10/03/case-conservative-case/).  These two paragraphs especially nail it:


Quote
Pethokoukis can’t because he has absorbed the core premises of the Left. “That’s racist!” This points to one of the deepest problems with “conservative intellectualism.” It accepts, out of conviction or fear or both, every restriction the Left places on it. The left rules out-of-bounds any discussion of the cultural or political effects of immigration as “racist,” and the conservatives go along. Hence they can only talk about immigration in economic terms, as if human beings were widgets.

In fact, this particular intellectual rot defines almost all of “conservatism.” It’s allowed the Left to bully the Right out of talking or thinking about so many subjects that all conservatives can rouse themselves to address any more is the economy. They rationalize such a narrow focus by insisting economics trumps all. But the root is fear. Or was. Fear may have caused the initial retreat, but younger “conservatives” raised in the faith actually believe every line of the Leftist creed. Except the parts about redistribution, because Hayek. Also, the donors don’t like it.

That right there, in bold, should be Conservatism Inc's epitaph. Economics doesn't stir men's souls -- cultural and social issues do. By putting everything through a filter of economic utility, conservatism simultaneously ceded the cultural battlespace to the Left and confirmed the perception of being strictly interested in commerce and business interests.  Nations are meant to have economies, not the other way around.

Conservatism's traditional base seems to have come to the conclusion that it needs a new vehicle for expression of its will, and Conservatism Inc. doesn't get it even now.

ETA -- and I have to throw in this quote too, because it channels my own thoughts so well:

Quote
Truth is, there’s nothing “conservative” about any of these people. But who cares about the word anymore? If they want to fight like dogs over who gets that bone, let them have it. Read me out of “conservatism.” Actually, you can’t fire me—I quit! If “conservatism” requires going to the wall for open borders, foolish trade deals, endless war, and head-in-the-sand “optimism,” to say nothing of routine denunciation of “racism” that’s far more imagined than real, then I am not conservative. I’ll take “patriotic” and “sane” instead.

RTWT -- http://amgreatness.com/2016/10/03/case-conservative-case/ (http://amgreatness.com/2016/10/03/case-conservative-case/)
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: John Florida on October 07, 2016, 04:05:53 PM
  I still care! Conservatism to me respect and I won't be disrespected.... Honor self worth  if you have no Honor what have you       My word is still my bond if my word is worthless so am I.

   Political correctness is/has none of those and I want nothing to do with it/them.  They represent none of the values my parents taught me. Self reliance among the top of the list I take care of those I want to not the ones that expect it.

   I won't give an inch.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on October 08, 2016, 08:50:31 AM
The Establishment cowards caved, we didn't.  The Establishment cowards refuse to fight, we don't.  The Establishment cowards fear the presstitutes, we don't.  The Establishment cowards adopt the trappings of the Left in order to get along, we don't.  The Establishment cowards take us for granted, and now they can barely stand the sight of us because we rock their boat and they do not want to have to defend us to their pals on the Left.  The Establishment cowards trashed the Conservative label, not us.

Why are we bothering with cowards any longer?

In the end it is not the label...it's the people...they are no longer our people and we should no longer have anything to do with them.  We can call ourselves whatever we want...but we have to remind ourselves and everybody else who shat on who, and damn them!  And never allow them to contaminate us ever again!
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Glock32 on October 10, 2016, 01:40:40 PM
This is a theme I can't get enough of, because I think it represents a fundamental shift regardless of what happens this year.  "Official Conservatism" is the term used by the author of this article (http://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=8724).


Quote
(every) Republican that has aggressively pressed the attack against the Left over the last quarter century, has been attacked by the media and so-called conservatives as unacceptably “polarizing” as if that is a thing. Official Conservatism has instead insisted that they abide by a set of gentile rules designed by the ruling majority, intended to perpetuate their hegemony. You could be forgiven for thinking that maybe the whole thing was a setup, a game of bad cop – worse cop, in order to rig the results.

Whenever the futility of this arrangement has been pointed out to Official Conservatism, they sigh and concede that it is unfair, but principle demands “we abide by the rules because that’s who we are.” If you pointed out that “who they were” was a bunch of losers, they would put on their lemon face and suggest that perhaps you were disloyal or some sort of hate thinker. Conservatism in America became the candy coating to the liberal nut inside the system.

...

Watching one traitorous fink after another decry Trump’s locker room talk from a decade ago, I was reminded once again that these people were never on my side. It was always a con, a grift, to fool otherwise decent people into putting down their weapons and surrendering to the Left. Buckley-style conservatism, whatever it was, is now just a tool of the managerial class to clear the field for nation-wrecking policies to benefit the ruling elite at the expense of the middle class.


Think about it, if you take a revisionist look at Official Conservatism through this lens, does their baffling behavior over the years not make a whole lot more sense?  We have long lamented the apparent incompetence of the GOP, but it's worse than that.  Its leadership has never been incompetent, it was playing "bad cop" to the Left's "worse cop" as a way of protecting the rotten enterprise they're both part of.

We're on the cusp of post-conservatism.  It will be the first genuine opposition in generations.  It doesn't mean the ideals that were supposedly embodied by conservatism are discarded, quite the contrary.  It means they will be carried by an entirely new cultural phenomenon.

RTWT -- "The Return of the Mule"
http://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=8724 (http://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=8724)
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Pandora on October 10, 2016, 11:08:24 PM
Maybe not conservative -- according to the past definition -- but Trump wants us, the country, to do well.

Clinton, on the other hand, wants us, the country, to do her will.

That's it, in a nutshell.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on October 11, 2016, 07:39:50 AM
I'm all for that nut cracking it's shell and being crushed into oblivion...Trump is the only nutcracker in reach.

As for that article...dude nails it from the start -

"If you go back and watch videos of Reagan in the 70’s and 80’s, one of the things that jumps out is how aggressively he attacked the Left. In his first inaugural address, he attacked the very essence of what Jimmy Carter stood for as a politician. The man was sitting just behind Reagan as the Gipper explained that everything Carter believed was dangerous nonsense. The other thing that jumps out, when watching old Reagan speeches, is that no Republican talks like that anymore."

Which is why the GOP needs to die.  Republican's are soft progressives, soft big government...soft when it comes to principles and convictions...soft in the effing head!  The reason they don't talk like that is because they are cowards, even if they think that way about their democrat pals they see it as uncouth to say it with such stark principled heart-felt certain-minded clarity.  Because deep down they are interested in the status quo, a status quo dictated, managed, controlled and enforced by hard progressives in the Democrat-Media Complex.  In practical terms the Establishment GOP is merely an adjunct of the DMC...if I had to give it a name within that hierarchy it would be useful idiots in a fictional opposition role, they are a cruel joke, a chimera cloaked in falsehood...a twisted safeguard for the Establishment to ensure its viability.  Reagan defied the entire Establishment by defeating fellow Republicans with a clear, consistent, passionate, humorous and principled vision of America-as-it-should-always-be, just as it was founded.  The other Republicans couldn't touch him, the people gravitated to open and honest personality and his consistent principled message and unwavering determination resonated and propelled him to massive wins over his Democrat opponents.  Both the Democrats and Establishment Republicans hated Reagan, hated his simple message and conviction, hated that he resonated so with the people and that he could use that to cut through the Establishment roadblocks that stalled most every other Executive's agenda.  Both camps breathed a sigh of relief when he could no longer run...both could return to business-as-usual with hard progs calling the shots and soft progs falling in line.  That my friends was the high water mark for America.

Trump is trying to emulate the Reagan model, he isn't quite as good and natural as Reagan and we have our doubts about some of his positions...but he overcame the Establishment and now the Establishment is fighting back...I find it odd that a frat-boy/locker room blather from 2005 is all they could find...seems to me like their ammo load is pretty light...and these idiots asking him to step aside over this is a joke given the rampant corruption, criminality and treason committed by Clinton and the fact that her husband-in-name-only is a sexual predator and serial rapist...but it exposes the sheer panic in the E-GOP ranks, they fear Trump more than Clinton...and this makes them no different than the assholes who hated Reagan, except now the Establishment is a lot dirtier, meaner and crazier than 40 years ago.

"Trump probably will not win and even if he does, it’s probably too late to avoid disaster anyway. Democracies always murder themselves. That is the lesson of history and ours will do the same, sooner rather than later. If the worst is to be avoided, then the present arrangements must be de-legitimized in order for a reform effort to have room to grow. That’s the role of Trump in the election. He the destroyer of worlds that need destroying."

Yeah...but I want the election to be such that if it is stolen, it is as rank, as naked, as obvious and as low down dirty filthy as possible.  I want a marker put down that can only be cashed in with blood.  The Mule's job is not done, none of our jobs are done.

 ;)
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on October 12, 2016, 12:41:38 PM
(https://s9.postimg.org/iziem7ze7/rinos_ryan.jpg)
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Glock32 on October 12, 2016, 09:59:30 PM
Those idiots confirm just how badly they fail to get it when they say things like "we're going to focus on our House and Senate races."  Hello?  Your party is finished.  And about damn time too.

Trump has already succeeded in drawing out and exposing the GOP.  His campaign is Operation Wrecking Ball.  If he does manage to get in the White House, phase 2 begins: Operation Stiletto.  Slipped right between the Establishment's ribs.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on October 13, 2016, 07:56:45 AM
I'm going to boot every pubbie I can with this box, then the other...
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on October 14, 2016, 12:22:47 PM
RNC $ for R(in)omney ads in 2012 - $42.4M

RNC $ for Trump ads in 2016 - $0

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-14/republican-party-has-spent-0-tv-ads-trump-after-spending-42-million-romney-2012 (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-10-14/republican-party-has-spent-0-tv-ads-trump-after-spending-42-million-romney-2012)

Hmm, let me do this very difficult math...

Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Glock32 on October 14, 2016, 12:39:07 PM
Let me do some additional math:

    13 turns of the knot
 +  6 feet of vertical drop
------------------------------------------------
     6 feet of depth in freshly turned Earth
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on October 14, 2016, 12:40:19 PM
A+
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: AlanS on October 14, 2016, 05:47:06 PM
Let me do some additional math:

    13 turns of the knot
 +  6 feet of vertical drop
------------------------------------------------
     6 feet of depth in freshly turned Earth

Now I don't have to do the figures in my head. ::thumbsup::
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on August 16, 2018, 01:17:52 PM
Kristol, deep in the DeepState coup against Trump...not just a casual #NeverTrumper...

https://amgreatness.com/2018/08/16/the-weekly-standards-ties-to-fusion-gps/

...deserves the same fate as his co-conspirators.

(https://images2.imgbox.com/30/6f/TdB2WQmz_o.gif)
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: ToddF on August 17, 2018, 06:28:34 AM
Right about the time Powerline announced a mass banning of all who would mocking Kristol in their comments section.

 ::thinking::
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: John Florida on August 17, 2018, 08:46:22 AM
  What happened to free speech Kristol is no sacred cow.
Title: Re: If #NeverTrump's succeed in electing Hillary Clinton, America is Done
Post by: Libertas on August 17, 2018, 09:24:32 AM
Right about the time Powerline announced a mass banning of all who would mocking Kristol in their comments section.

 ::thinking::

I think you are correct on the timing...the two instances had to have been very close.

And to JF's point...once you sell out to the DeepState the Two America's rules kick in...to the detriment of Liberty and those who cherish it over power.