It's About Liberty: A Conservative Forum
Topics => General Board => Topic started by: BigAlSouth on March 29, 2011, 05:52:02 PM
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Was anyone else as shocked as I in seeing video footage of smoldering tanks and military vehicles in Libya? I reasonably assume that coalition pilots were wholly responsible for the carnage as the rebels lack the weaponry or firepower to take out so many assets. The declared "No Fly Zone" has become a kill zone for Libyan soldiers loyal to Moammar Qaddafi.
Part of the United Nations Resolution states:
A no-fly zone is "an important element for the protection of civilians as well as the safety of the delivery of humanitarian assistance and a decisive step for the cessation of hostilities in Libya".
It "demands the immediate establishment of a ceasefire and a complete end to violence and all attacks against, and abuses of, civilians" and "that the Libyan authorities comply with their obligations under international law ... and take all measures to protect civilians and meet their basic needs, and to ensure the rapid and unimpeded passage of humanitarian assistance".
According to internet media, A-10 Warthogs and AC-130 Spectre Gunships are assets being used against the Libyan Army.
If, according to the Pentagon, these aircraft are “not being used in direct support of the opposition” forces, did they just sent them there on target practice? No. The Pentagon may pretend that these airplanes are not providing close air support to the rebel forces but the fact is that, when you take one of Gaddafi’s tank out of the way, you are directly supporting the opposition. Perhaps not in a coordinated way, but in a definitive way nonetheless.
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2011/03/why-are-spectres-and-warthogs-attacking-gaddafis-forces-now/ (http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2011/03/why-are-spectres-and-warthogs-attacking-gaddafis-forces-now/)
Not exactly in line with the UN Resolution. This begs the question: Without war being declared by the United States (or by NATO, bless Obama's little heart), are American military personnel in danger of being charged with war crimes for acting outside the scope of UN Resolution 1973? What if a plane goes down and the crew is captured? Does Qaddafi get his show trial or summary execution of American Airmen?
I will also throw out another concern. The UN Resolution also includes verbiage to the effect that foreign troops on the ground are outside the scope of the Resolution. The coalition is authorized to "take all necessary measures … to protect civilians … under threat of attack … while excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory".
If you do not believe that U.S. military personnel are on the ground in Libya as I write this, you are so, so naive. There are spotters there from ANGLICO, or special ops guys, or CIA types, or U.S. Army Rangers, or Navy Seals. ON THE GROUND IN LIBYA. Because that is the way it is done.
*ETA: Cross-posted at Red State, tnx guys
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It's a situation only Obama could contrive.
The reprieve for our Service Men is to convict Obama.
And if Boehner will not bring charges convict him.
If this advantage is not exploited *we will be.
*We as a Nation and we as individuals.
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If I were one of those pilots I would be having major qualms about killing tanks and trucks for the benefit of what are, in all likelihood, al-Qaeda affiliated "rebels". I imagine Obama has a little smirk on his face at the thought of ordering American military to aid his jihadi allies.
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BigAl has this posted over at RedState (here (http://www.redstate.com/bigalsouth/2011/03/29/no-fly-zone-enforcers-war-criminals/)). Sure would be nice if a few of you guys would pop on over there and "recommend" it. IDP and I have done so already. And yeah, I post under a different name there but you will see the IAL advert at the bottom of my comment.
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The problem for the rebels is that the personnel you describe are NOT on the ground . ( I stopped being naive after my first date in high school ) There is no coordination between ground and air , consequently the "kills" of Libyan armour and artillery have been , by and large , opportunistic . Hence the retreat yesterday which turned into a wild and confused route ... A-10s and AC-130s notwithstanding .
I agree , though , with much of the former . The MSM is busy trying to both cover for Stymie and define what they've come to dub "The Obama Doctrine" . " Doctrines " , as we understand them historically , are defined as " statements of fundamental government policy uniformly applied ". A better applellation would be "The Stymie Rule" wherein force is used against a second or third rate power with reasonable expectation of a positive outcome . Obviously this must be selectively applied since it wouldn't work against a country like Syria without tremendous loss of life on both sides and the risk of escalation into a major conflagration .
The concerns about the consequences regarding international law are well founded but become moot in conflicts like this where "war" is no longer "war" and our "friends" may well wind up being our "enemies" . Welcome to Alice's Wonderland !
::oldman::
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Stymie's
Wonderland Wasteland
::facepalm::
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Stymie's Wonderland Wasteland
::facepalm::
Now why the hell didn't I think of that ? ;D
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Stymie's Ethiopia. Hitler didn't need the conquest of Ethiopia; he did it to demonstrate the strength of his "vision" in Germany's future as an empire.
Furthermore, this fustercluck has taken our attention off domestic issues - and what his merry band of thugs is still up to here. For instance, the FDA is now "concerned" about the effect of food coloring on hyperactivity in "children" and wants the issue re-examined.
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Color me blue . ::eyes::
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BigAl has this posted over at RedState (here (http://www.redstate.com/bigalsouth/2011/03/29/no-fly-zone-enforcers-war-criminals/)). Sure would be nice if a few of you guys would pop on over there and "recommend" it. IDP and I have done so already. And yeah, I post under a different name there but you will see the IAL advert at the bottom of my comment.
tried a half dozen times to post with no luck... :(
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BigAl has this posted over at RedState (here (http://www.redstate.com/bigalsouth/2011/03/29/no-fly-zone-enforcers-war-criminals/)). Sure would be nice if a few of you guys would pop on over there and "recommend" it. IDP and I have done so already. And yeah, I post under a different name there but you will see the IAL advert at the bottom of my comment.
tried a half dozen times to post with no luck... :(
Did you register first?
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BigAl has this posted over at RedState (here (http://www.redstate.com/bigalsouth/2011/03/29/no-fly-zone-enforcers-war-criminals/)). Sure would be nice if a few of you guys would pop on over there and "recommend" it. IDP and I have done so already. And yeah, I post under a different name there but you will see the IAL advert at the bottom of my comment.
tried a half dozen times to post with no luck... :(
Did you register first?
RedState has about a 1 day waiting period between registering an account and the ability to post. Not sure why, but it is what it is.
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RedState has about a 1 day waiting period between registering an account and the ability to post. Not sure why, but it is what it is.
Okay, thanks.
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Tried to register...all the cool names were taken (that's what happens on the big sites) ::doh::
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Tried to register...all the cool names were taken (that's what happens on the big sites) ::doh::
Did you try "John the Perforator"? Kinda like that one m'self.
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Tried to register...all the cool names were taken (that's what happens on the big sites) ::doh::
Did you try "John the Perforator"? Kinda like that one m'self.
Gosh. You know - that one slipped my mind ;D
It would be nice if they'd let me browse their member list. I guess it's like piglosi says - you gotta vote for it before you can see what's in it ;)
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I just read that Obama signed an order allowing the CIA to begin operations, including "vetting" the rebels for AQ operatives.
Feel better now? /s
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I just read that Obama signed an order allowing the CIA to begin operations, including "vetting" the rebels for AQ operatives.
Feel better now? /s
I wonder what the assessment team will come up with ... " They need close air-support..." ?!?
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I just read that Obama signed an order allowing the CIA to begin operations, including "vetting" the rebels for AQ operatives.
Feel better now? /s
I wonder what the assessment team will come up with ... " They need close air-support..." ?!?
Give them our best weapons, and react in mock surprise when they "disappear" after the dust settles! Yeah, the perfect Regime answer!
::mooning::
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Operation GunRunner part deux.
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CIA operative to 1000 AQ "Rebels" in Libya:
Hey, y'all stand over there in a bunch. Gotta take a picture of you with this here laser thingy. No, move back a click. Yeah. That's right. Almost. Don't pay no attention to that whistling sound . . .
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::thumbsup::
::whoohoo::
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One size fits all . ::rockethrow::
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Don't want to say I done told y'all so, but . . .
Former CIA officers who have worked on the region said they believed the operatives are gathering intelligence on the Libyan opposition forces, to help better assess who the rebels are and what are their capabilities and organization structures, to inform U.S. decision-making including on possibly training them. Additionally, the former officials say, CIA personnel would be helping identify targets for precision air strikes. And,
Air-strike logistics will also be a critical component of the CIA mission, the former intelligence said. "In the paramilitary world, where you've got an air campaign, you need what are called FACs—forward air controllers—someone who can provide coordinates [for targets]," he explained. "In modern warfare, you don't drop 1,000 bombs to hit one target."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theenvoy/20110331/ts_yblog_theenvoy/questions-loom-about-cia-role-in-libya (http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_theenvoy/20110331/ts_yblog_theenvoy/questions-loom-about-cia-role-in-libya)
What? What did I say March 29?
There are spotters there from ANGLICO, or special ops guys, or CIA types, or U.S. Army Rangers, or Navy Seals. ON THE GROUND IN LIBYA. Because that is the way it is done.
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Don't want to say I done told y'all so, but . . .
What? What did I say March 29?
There are spotters there from ANGLICO, or special ops guys, or CIA types, or U.S. Army Rangers, or Navy Seals. ON THE GROUND IN LIBYA. Because that is the way it is done.
That part hasn't happened ... yet .
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Don't want to say I done told y'all so, but . . .
What? What did I say March 29?
There are spotters there from ANGLICO, or special ops guys, or CIA types, or U.S. Army Rangers, or Navy Seals. ON THE GROUND IN LIBYA. Because that is the way it is done.
That part hasn't happened ... yet .
I believe I've read that it has SH. Unless I'm wrong, the story broke a couple days ago that Obama had already given his approval for these CIA operations - it was leaked, if I remember correctly - and then yesterday it was formally announced that he had already given the "Mother May I" approval.
You have a different understanding?
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Don't want to say I done told y'all so, but . . .
What? What did I say March 29?
There are spotters there from ANGLICO, or special ops guys, or CIA types, or U.S. Army Rangers, or Navy Seals. ON THE GROUND IN LIBYA. Because that is the way it is done.
That part hasn't happened ... yet .
I believe I've read that it has SH. Unless I'm wrong, the story broke a couple days ago that Obama had already given his approval for these CIA operations - it was leaked, if I remember correctly - and then yesterday it was formally announced that he had already given the "Mother May I" approval.
You have a different understanding?
I've already stated my "understanding" . "Ground to air coordination" hasn't begun yet . For the moment they are "assessing" the rebels ( rabble ) . "Spotting" will most certainly follow and you can also count on the presence of MI6 and some SAS ( the former instructors of Ghadaffi's "Special Forces" ) . That is my only point .
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Don't want to say I done told y'all so, but . . .
What? What did I say March 29?
There are spotters there from ANGLICO, or special ops guys, or CIA types, or U.S. Army Rangers, or Navy Seals. ON THE GROUND IN LIBYA. Because that is the way it is done.
That part hasn't happened ... yet .
I believe I've read that it has SH. Unless I'm wrong, the story broke a couple days ago that Obama had already given his approval for these CIA operations - it was leaked, if I remember correctly - and then yesterday it was formally announced that he had already given the "Mother May I" approval.
You have a different understanding?
I've already stated my "understanding" . "Ground to air coordination" hasn't begun yet . For the moment they are "assessing" the rebels ( rabble ) . "Spotting" will most certainly follow and you can also count on the presence of MI6 and some SAS ( the former instructors of Ghadaffi's "Special Forces" ) . That is my only point .
OK. So you're not saying they aren't going to do this, only that they haven't begun yet.
::thumbsup::
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I agree with SH. The Spooks are snooping and gathering info, if they send in "spotters" then SpecOp's will infiltrate and take point on that, but I don't think they've gone that far. Plus, like I mentioned earlier, Daffy is making deployments using civilian vehicles and such, so spotters would have a harder time pinpointing his forces even from the ground. I think the amateurs in the WH are still fighiting among themselves and being cautious...which bodes well for Daffy...since he wants to run the string out.
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I have no grounds to disagree with either of you fellas. At this point I'm here to learn. I was only relating my understanding based on the news I heard, and I'm happy to be corrected.
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I don't know if we can say for 100% certain what is or isn't, but looking at the situation logically and applying what little info we do have, it seems likely SpecOp's types are not yet deployed in this theatre. Now, it is entirely possible that we are being blown smoke up our rears and they are in place, but I would think if that were the case the pace of air attacks would be higher and the effectiveness greater than it appears right now.
And for myself I am hoping I am right, I don't want our best being wasted in Libya for nothing, because in the end, this fustercluck will result in Daffy still in power or radical muzzies in ascendancy...ensuring either one isn't worth a single life of ours!
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Blackfive has a good posting on the ground situation.
http://www.blackfive.net/main/ (http://www.blackfive.net/main/)
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There would be no way to call in a proper Fire Mission for this retreating rabble without the risk of being captured yourself and they aren't going to let that happen . Things have to stabilze a little first and it doesn't look like THAT'S going to happen very soon either .
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Ya got that right.
Duh Wun really put his Duh all over this deal, eh?!
::unknowncomic::
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From the BlackFive link provided by Libertas:
Think about it - what is the hardest thing to distinguish? Whether or not a civilian vehicle is occupied by good guys or bad guys – or neither. Make your side pretty much identical from the air to the other side or just regular civilians and it makes the job the coalition has undertaken much harder. That’s precisely what the Gadhafi troops have done.
This would make utilizing "spotters" or forward air control all the more necessary. And . . .
Finally, we find out today that the CIA is operating among the rebels. Given their huge history of success in these sorts of endeavors, that has to give you a warm fuzzy feeling, huh? And while I wouldn’t technically claim it violates Obama’s “no boots on the ground” pledge, it does stretch it a bit.
My point exactly. When does Stymie stop stretching?
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There would be no way to call in a proper Fire Mission for this retreating rabble without the risk of being captured yourself and they aren't going to let that happen . Things have to stabilze a little first and it doesn't look like THAT'S going to happen very soon either .
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There would be no way to call in a proper Fire Mission for this retreating rabble without the risk of being captured yourself and they aren't going to let that happen . Things have to stabilze a little first and it doesn't look like THAT'S going to happen very soon either .
But these are Stymie's people! Where's the risk?
:P
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Why don't we just place our bets and wait for the After Action Report ? ::thumbsup::
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Why don't we just place our bets and wait for the After Action Report ? ::thumbsup::
That sounds reasonable.
I bet after action intel will show that there have been men on the ground "painting" the tanks and other targets for the aircraft sorties.
Ah, Don runs a betting parlor, if there were a PayPal account here....
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http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/04/201142172443133798.html (http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/04/201142172443133798.html)
US and Egyptian special forces have reportedly been offering covert armed training to rebel fighters in the battle for Libya, Al Jazeera has been told.
An unnamed rebel source related how he had undergone training in military techniques at a "secret facility" in eastern Libya.
He told our correspondent Laurence Lee, reporting from the rebel-stronghold of Benghazi, that he was sent to fire Katyusha rockets but was given a simple, unguided version of the rocket instead.
"He told us that on Thursday night a new shipment of Katyusha rockets had been sent into eastern Libya from Egypt. He didn't say they were sourced from Egypt, but that was their route through," our correspondent said.
"He said these were state-of-the-art, heat-seeking rockets and that they needed to be trained on how to use them, which was one of the things the American and Egyptian special forces were there to do."
The intriguing development has raised several uncomfortable questions,...
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Why don't we just place our bets and wait for the After Action Report ? ::thumbsup::
That sounds reasonable.
I bet after action intel will show that there have been men on the ground "painting" the tanks and other targets for the aircraft sorties.
Ah, Don runs a betting parlor, if there were a PayPal account here....
Yeah . All the way from Benghazi .
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I bet after action intel will show that there have been men on the ground "painting" the tanks and other targets for the aircraft sorties.
I have no doubt that SAS and MI6 are trying to do that even as we speak ... Although their effectiveness to date may be in some doubt .
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Those are our guys and gals out there with out any true help from ObaMao!
Lord save our souls and Solders!