Topic: alternative antibiotics

[Dan]

Categories » TEOTWAWKI » Alternative antibiotics
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Alternative antibiotics
Post by glock32 on Jul 16, 2010, 11:02pm

In a hypothetical SHTF scenario, it might be worthwhile to have some antibiotics on hand. In the absence of modern medical care, even relatively simple wounds can deteriorate into a dangerous infection. Fortunately, you can legally purchase many common antibiotics without a prescription.

Some of you are probably aware of this already, but antibiotics are commonly used to treat bacterial infections of ornamental fish. These are quite often the exact same antibiotics prescribed for people, even down to the exact same manufacturer and capsule ID. They can be purchased at pet stores under various trade names, but probably the most common is "Fish Mox", which is amoxicillin in either 250mg or 500mg strength. The capsules are the exact same ones your local pharmacy is likely to dispense.

Case in point, I have this one tooth that flares up every 6 months or so. Ultimately I'm going to have to have a root canal on it, but that'll have to wait until I've got an "extra" thousand bucks laying around. Every time I've gone to the dentist about it, they prescribe 500mg amoxicillin 3 times per day for 10 days. So in the most recent episode about 2 months ago, rather than wasting my money and the doctor's time, I took the "Fish Mox" capsules according to the same regimen I had previously been prescribed. It knocked out the infection just as quickly and completely as always.

Anyhow, I relate this story to y'all not because I suggest that this is an ideal practice or anything, but because it's a bit of "frontier medicine" that could potentially come in handy in a difficult situation, and my personal experience is that it absolutely does work. The bottles have about a 2 year shelf life. I think they're a good part of any SHTF kit. :)Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by irondiopriest on Jul 16, 2010, 11:07pm

Really. How frakkin' cool a thing is THAT to know??? A few bottles of "Fish Mox" are in my near future.

Know anything about shelf-life? I read a TEOTWAWKI thread once elsewhere that said expiration dates on tablets and capsules are generally bunk, and that they last much longer than the stated expiration date as long as they are kept in a cool, dry place.Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by glock32 on Jul 16, 2010, 11:25pm

I've heard the same about shelf life. I think most shelf lives printed on the bottles are a CYA thing vis-a-vis the FDA. I'll probably buy a new bottle or two every year or so just to always have a "fresh" supply, and relegate the older stuff to secondary supply. Honestly though, I imagine if you had to use some that were 2-3 years beyond the expiration date they would still work just as well, as long as they were stored properly.Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by rocketman on Jul 17, 2010, 10:48am

Interesting.

There's a whole world out there re: "medicine" that has yet to be tapped. Mostly for financial reasons I'm afraid.

.
Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by Dan on Jul 17, 2010, 11:00am

That's a great tid-bit to know! I have to get crickets at the pet store today, so I'll pick up some of that.
Infection is something I've been concerned about, too, in the event of something happening, and my kit has loads of band-aids of assorted sizes, H2O2 and bacitracin. I have gloves for tac use and some for med use and plan on being healthy as long as I can. Keeping the kids healthy will be hard enough, and I can't do my job if I'm laid-up.
What about Pain? I have left over percocet, but is there an alternative along the lines of this 'fish-mox'?Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by pandora on Jul 17, 2010, 1:43pm


Quote:
What about Pain? I have left over percocet, ...


I don't know about an alternative, but I suggest you squinch out the money now to get that prescription refilled, if you can. Same for any others you believe might be needed later.

Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by irondiopriest on Jul 17, 2010, 2:48pm

You know what concerns me? Contact lenses for my boys. They are both strong young men, and good marksmen to boot, but they are both blind as bats. I want them to have lasik before the government takes control of healthcare and the economy crashes, but they are a few years away from the age considered appropriate for the procedure. I could stock up on contacts, but that doesn't solve the end problem to my satisfaction.Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by Dan on Jul 17, 2010, 3:34pm

I don't think I could convince my Doc to prescribe another bottle of percs. Not at this point. It's been too long and if I were to claim that kind of pain, he'd probably want to do an MRI or something!
I may grow my own pain relief, if ya' know what I mean!
IDP, glasses are something I have to consider too. I have tac/sport rx glasses or goggles high on my short list of things to get. My eyes aren't quite bad enough for lasik, but I do want to get a 2d opinion. Barring that, I think the difficulty of keeping contacts clean is keeping me away from going that route, but losing/breaking glasses is also a consideration. I have 2 sets now, but not the rugged kind. I am looking for a set that has a good field of view so as to not lose peripheral vision, but I'm only giving that a half-assed effort right now.Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by glock32 on Jul 17, 2010, 6:40pm


Jul 17, 2010, 3:34pm, Dan wrote:
I don't think I could convince my Doc to prescribe another bottle of percs. Not at this point. It's been too long and if I were to claim that kind of pain, he'd probably want to do an MRI or something!


I don't know, I gather that under ObamaCare "giving grandma a pain pill" is going to become the preferable course of action for lots of things. MRIs are expensive you know!Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by Dan on Jul 17, 2010, 9:17pm

G32; "I don't know, I gather that under ObamaCare "giving grandma a pain pill" is going to become the preferable course of action for lots of things. MRIs are expensive you know!"

Yikes! I ain't that old!Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by glock32 on Jul 17, 2010, 9:37pm

LOL, yeah I suspect under ObamaCare the age threshold for expensive care is going to come ever downwards, as a way of rationing without calling it rationing. Next thing we know "grandma" is only 40 years old.Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by johnflorida on Jul 17, 2010, 9:49pm

Antibiotics are easy and cheap enough you can get of them from walmart for 4 bucks. There is a pill in Canada over the counter that's called 222 it contains codeine that's an effective pain reliever and no doctor needed.

It's no perk but it always got it done for me. It's a great alternative if you can get on the web or better yet have family there or live close enough to bring it down.

Anybody live close to Canada?Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by johnflorida on Jul 17, 2010, 9:56pm


Jul 16, 2010, 11:07pm, irondiopriest wrote:
Really. How frakkin' cool a thing is THAT to know??? A few bottles of "Fish Mox" are in my near future.

Know anything about shelf-life? I read a TEOTWAWKI thread once elsewhere that said expiration dates on tablets and capsules are generally bunk, and that they last much longer than the stated expiration date as long as they are kept in a cool, dry place.


It is bunk!! When I still had my shop in Connecticut one of my costumers was in Pharma sales and he would have to take product off the shelves because of the dates.

I had other clients that worked with the poor and in old folks homes that would take all I could get for nothing, The salesman took a chance because he had to dump it but he always managed to bring boxes and I mean boxes of the stuff to the shop and the other end was always happy to get it and use it.

The ware house he worked for also handled shampoos and the like and we did the same with that too. I must have given a half a ton of stuff over the years.Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by pandora on Jul 17, 2010, 11:55pm


Quote:
I don't think I could convince my Doc to prescribe another bottle of percs. Not at this point. It's been too long ...


I wasn't suggesting you go to the Dr. Check the pill-bottle label; is there another refill designated on the label? If so, what's the "refill by" date. If you're in the window, refill it.Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by glock32 on Jul 18, 2010, 12:16am

A drug like that typically requires a written prescription for each fill because it is a Schedule II controlled substance.Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by pandora on Jul 18, 2010, 12:20am


Jul 18, 2010, 12:16am, glock32 wrote:
A drug like that typically requires a written prescription for each fill because it is a Schedule II controlled substance.


"Typically" is not every. I've got a refill left on my Oxy prescription. Can't hurt to check.Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by glock32 on Jul 18, 2010, 12:43am

I didn't know they did that with narcotics. When my sister was prescribed oxycodone for post-op they made her come in and get a brand new prescription for each fill, which was a bit of a pain for someone who recently had major orthopedic surgery. More spillover from the "war on drugs" I guess.Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by Dan on Jul 18, 2010, 9:58am

I think I just lost a post! Either that or I had a brain-fart.


No refills, Pan. Worth checkin', but G is right. This bottle has all sorts of warnings and notices.
JF, thanks for the tip on the '222'. I'm gonna' try to get it on-line, but I may end up going to Canada in the near future. There are a couple other things I want that can't be mailed to the US. Re-crossing the border will require some though, though.Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by pandora on Jul 18, 2010, 10:04am


Quote:
More spillover from the "war on drugs" I guess.


Yup. Yay.

eta: You were right about the Oxy prescription, btw; no refills. Got it confused with the Belladonna. Should've checked before I asserted.Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by Dan on Jul 18, 2010, 10:30pm

Amazon (and I'm sure many others) has fish-mox and all other forms of anti-b's to treat just about anything from ear infections to anthrax to pneumonia.
link
Wikipedia has some info on dosage, but that info's available elsewhere, too.

Also, I came across a survivalist site that says "Jack-in-=the-Pulpit", a plant native to eastern US, has some very potent topical pain-killing properties!
survivalist site

and photos of it link

Still looking for a better pain-killer to be taken internally.Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by libertasinfinitio on Jul 19, 2010, 6:43am


Jul 18, 2010, 10:30pm, Dan wrote:
Amazon (and I'm sure many others) has fish-mox and all other forms of anti-b's to treat just about anything from ear infections to anthrax to pneumonia.
link
Wikipedia has some info on dosage, but that info's available elsewhere, too.

Also, I came across a survivalist site that says "Jack-in-=the-Pulpit", a plant native to eastern US, has some very potent topical pain-killing properties!
survivalist site

and photos of it link

Still looking for a better pain-killer to be taken internally.


There's always bourbon or whatever. ;)Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by libertasinfinitio on Aug 2, 2010, 8:15pm

So what's the shelf life etc on these antibiotics? Limit to how much you can buy?Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by Dan on Aug 2, 2010, 9:13pm

I just today, as it so happens, bought some erythromycin OTC at the pet store. Shelf life 2.5 yrs, no limit, apparently, except by what's available on the shelf.
And what the wife will overlook and not go off on me!
I can't find the fish-mox OTC yet, but I'm still looking locally. On-line has good prices, but don't know about the other q's.

amazon link

Amazon has god prices on 'generic' stuff, and has a very broad spectrum of anti-b's available.
GO to Web MD or another site and read up on what each med treats and dosages for each. I have that info printed, but I'm just negotiating w/ my CFO for funds for, well, lots of stuff.
She keeps saying, "Last week it was (fill in the blank), now it's (fill in the blank)! What's next?" To which I always reply, "An M1-A2 Abrams!"
I don't push the full story of what we're facing, 'cuz she's still in 'ostrich mode', but she indulges me to no small extent.Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by glock32 on Aug 2, 2010, 9:44pm

I should also add, the Fish Mox comes in two varieties. One is just called Fish Mox, the other is called Fish Mox Forte. The Forte is the one I get because it's 500mg capsules, which is the typical adult dose you're likely to be prescribed. The other variety is 250mg, which might be more suitable for kids.Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by rocketman on Aug 3, 2010, 9:54am

As a related aside ...

I was once prescribed Cipro - at the same time the anthrax threat was real. I carried the bottle of it to work with me and cheekily asked my staff if they wanted "to buy some drugs".

<chuckle>

Seriously though, it doesn't hurt to have a stash on hand:
Cipro, Keflex and Bactrim D5 (for MRSA).

.
Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by archkarado on Aug 29, 2010, 10:14pm


Jul 18, 2010, 10:04am, pandora wrote:

Quote:
More spillover from the "war on drugs" I guess.


Yup. Yay.

eta: You were right about the Oxy prescription, btw; no refills. Got it confused with the Belladonna. Should've checked before I asserted.


arch says

Pandora! Don't mess with that Belladonna. I had an Aunt that died from taking it. It comes from a plant called Deadly Nightshade for good reason. It was horrible beyond description! I could have sworn that she had the Rabies!Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by pandora on Aug 29, 2010, 10:46pm

I've used it sparingly with very good results and I keep it on hand for certain purposes.Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by archkarado on Aug 31, 2010, 11:19pm


Aug 29, 2010, 10:46pm, pandora wrote:
I've used it sparingly with very good results and I keep it on hand for certain purposes.


Arch says

OK!Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by Dan on Sept 1, 2010, 11:17am

Cipro, Keflex and Bactrim D5 (for MRSA).

Rock, can these be purchased OTC or is a RX needed?Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by Dan on Nov 17, 2010, 2:31pm

just got a few bottles of fish-mox, cephalexin and erythromyicin via amazon. shelf life of 2 yrs. also printed out as much info on usage/dosage in case the 'net goes down.Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by irondiopriest on Nov 17, 2010, 4:41pm

I'm deadly allergic to erythromyicin. I had an anaphylactic reaction because of it once in my 20s - really bad hives, swollen throat, swollen, itchy tongue, respiratory distress, diarrhea, vomiting, the whole nine yards. It was absolutely the scariest dang thing that every happened to me health-wise. It's the only substance I know of that causes such a reaction in my body - I've been stung by bees and jellyfish and such, and have never experienced anything like the last time I took erythromyicin.

Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by glock32 on Nov 17, 2010, 5:07pm

Do you have an Epi-pen? Might want to have a few on hand in your SHTF kit too. Benadryl is also an effective anti-histamine that might come in handy.

Trying to figure out what to keep in your emergency med kit is a potent reminder of just how much we take modern medicine for granted.Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by irondiopriest on Nov 17, 2010, 5:15pm


Nov 17, 2010, 5:07pm, glock32 wrote:
Do you have an Epi-pen? Might want to have a few on hand in your SHTF kit too. Benadryl is also an effective anti-histamine that might come in handy.

Trying to figure out what to keep in your emergency med kit is a potent reminder of just how much we take modern medicine for granted.


I don't have one, no. Have lots of Benadryl on hand because we have allergy sufferers in the house. I've never had a reaction to anything like that before or since, although I've had pretty severe hives a couple times, without the respiratory symptoms, and the cause of those bouts was never determined.

Can one get Epi-pen OTC, or does one need a prescription?Re: Alternative antibiotics
Post by Dan on Nov 18, 2010, 8:16pm

excellent suggestion on the epi pen, g. we have no allergies for which we need one now, but we haven't run the gamut of things kids get into yet, so i cant' say i don't need one, which leads me to think that i should get one or ten! as fa r as taking modern medicine for granted, i've used it too many times, and had it out of reach for luckily a short time, to take it for granted.
but i get your point!
idp, unfortunately a quick search indicates epi pens are r/x only. i'll have to talk to my doc.

[Dan]

This is a cut/paste of the "print" format as per G32's suggestion.

I'll see how to monkey around w/ getting it to display like a proper thread, but it may be an admin function. Let me know if I can help IDP.

[IronDioPriest]

This is a cut/paste of the "print" format as per G32's suggestion.

I'll see how to monkey around w/ getting it to display like a proper thread, but it may be an admin function. Let me know if I can help IDP.

I don't think it's worth the effort to try to get it to display like a regular thread. As long as the information is preserved....

Thanks for doing this Dan!

[Glock32]

Probably the only thing I'll do if I paste any of these in is to add a horizontal rule between the separate posts. Like this:


The tag for it is

Code: [Select]

[hr]

[Larry H]

My panaceas:
garlic = antibacterial, orally
Cayenne pepper = heart and arteries and anti-parasites, orally with food
Manuka honey - antibacterial and anti MRSA, for burns, wounds and ulcers, orally and topically
Manuka oil (from New Zealand) = anti MRSA, a drop or two under the tongue
oil of oregano (Health food store) = a drop or two under the tongue

Hydrogen Peroxide 3% = gargle for sore throats and ear aches, cleanse the skin, contusions, abrasions
Hydrogen Peroxide (a 6-fold dilution) 0.5% = nasal irrigation for colds and sinus headaches
Aloe Vera gel (not the green part) = topically for burns and orally for the intestines and fresh skin, one tablespoon to half a cup, daily.

[charlesoakwood]

Vitamin E, topically applied, for anti-scarring and burns.  It is in no way anti-biotic, but it will take the pain from a burn and help a burn or other wound heal faster with less scar tissue.

[Pandora]

Mint toothpaste is also soothing for burns.

[Libertas]

Haven't visited this topic in a while...did we determine that stuff like fish mox is the only non-prescription way to get antibiotics?  If so, where do you get this stuff from and do I have to spread out my purchases so as to not look like a kook (or someone who has thousands of ailing fish)?!

 

[Pandora]

You can get the Fish Mox at the pet store.

[charlesoakwood]

Depending on family size there are: pediatritian, primary physician, ENT, dentist, with whom
one has an ongoing relationship; generally they can be depended upon to provide a prescription
for the occasional infection.   

It is important to know and be able to identify the infection and the applicable medication. 

[Weisshaupt]

Depending on family size there are: pediatritian, primary physician, ENT, dentist, with whom
one has an ongoing relationship; generally they can be depended upon to provide a prescription
for the occasional infection.   

It is important to know and be able to identify the infection and the applicable medication. 

You are making the assumption that your access will be limited by the Dr./perscription and not the by what the local pharmacy has available.  Unless your family has the right ties, you might find that those meds, even if available, are in short supply and  reserved  by the Obamacare borad for the care of  the right people. (i.e. not you)   But maybe you will have better luck on the black market.

[Pandora]

Depending on family size there are: pediatritian, primary physician, ENT, dentist, with whom
one has an ongoing relationship; generally they can be depended upon to provide a prescription
for the occasional infection.   

It is important to know and be able to identify the infection and the applicable medication. 

You are making the assumption that your access will be limited by the Dr./perscription and not the by what the local pharmacy has available.  Unless your family has the right ties, you might find that those meds, even if available, are in short supply and  reserved  by the Obamacare borad for the care of  the right people. (i.e. not you)   But maybe you will have better luck on the black market.

Are you speaking for current or future times?

Because I can tell you, I've been finding this to be true of the pharmacies around here for at least three years.  It's not that they can't fill your prescription, just that they can't do it until "tomorrow" because of what isn't kept in stock.

[charlesoakwood]

It was focused more at thoughts on preparation for a theoretical delivery/availability interruption.
I have nothing against fish or keeping them healthy but for myself licensed meds are a preference.

[Weisshaupt]

It was focused more at thoughts on preparation for a theoretical delivery/availability interruption.
I have nothing against fish or keeping them healthy but for myself licensed meds are a preference.

Yes. I have a preference for  hospitals, clean running water,  sewer systems,  local fuel delivery, electricity and any number of other modern miracles.  However given the (dis) incentives provided by Obamacare, meds and care are implictly going to require waiting times, and will also suffer a drop in quality.  Getting high quality, licensed meds may simply become impossible, or simply not worth the effort, even with medical professionals in the family.  Most of the meds are produced for the US market.. and are offered to Socialist systems at lower contracted costs because they can get a marginal gain from the sale.  However, without the US market, or more accurately, with the new Obamacare controlled and dominated  market, what meds can be used for what is going to be dicatated to doctors.  This will result in many meds just simply no longer being made, or manufactured on a much smaller scale  - for those rich enough to purchase them (perhaps illegally) without the aid of their govt  benefits.

This isn't a far fetched Mad Max Scenario.  This is England, Sweden, France, Cuba, China and every other nation with a socialist system who have been leeching off the United States as a host. That host is now dying, and you are going to see failures of delivery across the world that last quite a while.

[charlesoakwood]

The actual shelf life of many drugs such as antibiotics, antiviral and anti fungal,
etc. are about ten years if kept dry and within temperature range.  Some folks are
collecting them now.

[Pandora]

The actual shelf life of many drugs such as antibiotics, antiviral and anti fungal,
etc. are about ten years if kept dry and within temperature range.  Some folks are
collecting them now.

Yes, they are {waving} which was the point of discussing the what and how and where, with Weisshaupt offering a quite realistic scenario of what may -- probably will -- happen and encouraging people to get on the stick.

Stockpile the "real" stuff if you can; the Fish Mox-types are the same chemical and will serve when/if they're needed.

[charlesoakwood]

The actual shelf life of many drugs such as antibiotics, antiviral and anti fungal,
etc. are about ten years if kept dry and within temperature range.  Some folks are
collecting them now.

Yes, they are {waving} which was the point of discussing the what and how and where, with Weisshaupt offering a quite realistic scenario of what may -- probably will -- happen and encouraging people to get on the stick.

Stockpile the "real" stuff if you can; the Fish Mox-types are the same chemical and will serve when/if they're needed.

The initial response was to the querry about purchasing Fish Mox now.  {waving}
                                                                                                                       

[Pandora]

The actual shelf life of many drugs such as antibiotics, antiviral and anti fungal,
etc. are about ten years if kept dry and within temperature range.  Some folks are
collecting them now.

Yes, they are {waving} which was the point of discussing the what and how and where, with Weisshaupt offering a quite realistic scenario of what may -- probably will -- happen and encouraging people to get on the stick.

Stockpile the "real" stuff if you can; the Fish Mox-types are the same chemical and will serve when/if they're needed.

The initial response was to the querry about purchasing Fish Mox now.  {waving}
                                                                                                                       

You ... you're mooning me, CO?

Don't make me come over there .......

[Weisshaupt]

Stockpile the "real" stuff if you can; the Fish Mox-types are the same chemical and will serve when/if they're needed.

The initial response was to the querry about purchasing Fish Mox now.  {waving}
                                                                                                                       
[/quote]

I got the impression you were going to rely on your family connections to get what you needed in real time. Its time to call on those connections and get what you need now..

[Pandora]

I swear, he needs a beat on the haid, some dayz .........