It's About Liberty: A Conservative Forum

Topics => 2nd Amendment/Firearms => Topic started by: Glock32 on February 14, 2015, 03:29:52 PM

Title: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Glock32 on February 14, 2015, 03:29:52 PM
The ATF has decreed its intent to ban M855 ammunition, supposedly on account of it having armor piercing capabilities.  They argue that the prevalence of pistols now chambered in 5.52/.223 means this ammo must now be subject to the law against armor piercing handgun ammunition.  This is the same reasoning they used to ban further importation of surplus 5.45x39 ammo a few months ago.

However, in neither of these cases is the steel content of the projectile genuinely "armor piercing."  In the M855 5.56 round, there is a steel penetrator intended to improve penetration of intermediate barriers, but this has never been considered "armor piercing" by the military.  In the case of the 5.45x39 round, the steel content is a mild steel mainly used because it is cheaper than lead, and was common in ComBloc production. Its penetration capabilities are little better than a pure lead round, and certainly not up to true purpose built AP ammo.

Both of these strokes of some bureaucrat's pen are clearly meant to harass and annoy gun owners, specifically owners of AR and AK "assault rifles."  The M855 round is the most commonly used general purpose target round in the AR community.

The ATF will be accepting ignoring comments on the proposed regulatory change until March 16th.

http://www.nraila.org/articles/20150213/batfe-to-ban-common-ar-15-ammo (http://www.nraila.org/articles/20150213/batfe-to-ban-common-ar-15-ammo)
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: warpmine on February 14, 2015, 04:26:30 PM
Want to bet they have no data regarding this ammo when placed in a short barrel pistol. The muzzle velocity is usually down a bit which translates into less energy down range which would certainly negate their fears, guys taking a hit through the helmet.

I'm now seeing the transitioning of 7.62x51 mm ammo to pistol formations as well. Are they going to his us there to?
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Alphabet Soup on February 14, 2015, 05:29:19 PM
Although I'm suitably outraged at the needless infringement of our rights it is tempered by the fact that this is too damned little and to F'ing late. I can't (won't) tell you how many multiples of thousands of rounds I possess (let's just say it is a number less than infinity), or how many firearms the fire them with but it is a number that should cause any gun grabber to blanch. There are many tens of millions of citizens who are just like me.

I have one simple thought for these KKKlowns: When you pull shyt like this it only hastens the day when I redistribute that collection according to my specifications, not yours.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Pandora on February 14, 2015, 05:51:14 PM
Although I'm suitably outraged at the needless infringement of our rights it is tempered by the fact that this is too damned little and to F'ing late. I can't (won't) tell you how many multiples of thousands of rounds I possess (let's just say it is a number less than infinity), or how many firearms the fire them with but it is a number that should cause any gun grabber to blanch. There are many tens of millions of citizens who are just like me.

I have one simple thought for these KKKlowns: When you pull shyt like this it only hastens the day when I redistribute that collection according to my specifications, not yours.

Shorter version:  "Do they now?"
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: IronDioPriest on February 14, 2015, 06:35:18 PM
I'm pretty much in the same boat as Soup. I have what I want and need. Furthermore, I don't really feel the need to practice with it. I'm accurate and comfortable. If I do get the urge, I can use 30 or 60 rounds without making a noticable dent in supply.

That's not to say that the bastards who would attempt to regulate away our rights shouldn't be held in the greatest contempt. I'm just saying that what they're doing won't affect my behavior in the least.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: AlanS on February 15, 2015, 10:03:23 AM

Shorter version:  "Do they now?"

Government= clueless. As usual.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Septugenarian on February 15, 2015, 10:17:41 AM
I'm amply supplied as well, also have the new pieces to break in.  Then its probably be time for another boat ride on the Hunley.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on February 15, 2015, 03:43:33 PM
I think as a response they can try to ignore is if everyone sends them a spent casing.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Magnum on February 16, 2015, 02:14:34 PM
I am not stocked as I should. I love to shoot and like to go as much as I can. I am ticked as these are my favorite rounds to shoot. My AR's like them and you can could get them for cheap.

This is getting nuts.....................
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on February 16, 2015, 02:30:10 PM
http://www.gunbot.net/ammo/rifle/556/ (http://www.gunbot.net/ammo/rifle/556/)

Top results for higher bulk offers -

http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/18739/s/prvi-partisan-5-56mm-m855-ammunition-1000rds-pp5-6/category/48/ (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/catalog/product/view/id/18739/s/prvi-partisan-5-56mm-m855-ammunition-1000rds-pp5-6/category/48/)

http://www.ammosupplywarehouse.com/product/833/AMA-DENEX-Rio-556-SS109-M855-62-grn-FMJ-900-rndcan.html (http://www.ammosupplywarehouse.com/product/833/AMA-DENEX-Rio-556-SS109-M855-62-grn-FMJ-900-rndcan.html)

https://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=9019&dir=18%7c830%7c845 (https://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=9019&dir=18%7c830%7c845)

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/1000-rds-pmc-m855-556x45mm-62-grain-fmj-ammo?a=745158&CJ=1&cjaffilid=7037006&cjaffsite=GunBot+LLC&cjadv=CJTSGUSA&cjadvid=1522857&utm_source=GunBot+LLC&utm_medium=CJ&utm_campaign=Redirect-Enabled+Deep+Link (http://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/1000-rds-pmc-m855-556x45mm-62-grain-fmj-ammo?a=745158&CJ=1&cjaffilid=7037006&cjaffsite=GunBot+LLC&cjadv=CJTSGUSA&cjadvid=1522857&utm_source=GunBot+LLC&utm_medium=CJ&utm_campaign=Redirect-Enabled+Deep+Link)

Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Magnum on February 16, 2015, 02:58:21 PM
Thanks Libertas,

But I believe the hoarding of 5.56 ammo has begin. The sites listed are all out of stock. Palmetto had free shipping on 420 rounds of the m855 for the past several weeks but as soon as this news broke they were out of stock quickly. From what I have been reading.......  if this goes to the courts the administration will lose. As one lawyer stated:

Quote
The fact that these clowns are going after literally the most common long-arm center-fire cartridge used in the US, by a huge margin over the next common such cartridge, makes them automatically WRONG under the Miller “in common use at the time” standard as applied in Heller. Green tip is constitutionally protected under the Miller standard precisely BECAUSE the huge amount of green tip sold proves that the People have concluded that green tip is an effective round. The People, not Congress and not the BATF, decide what we think we need.

As the Supreme Court ruled in Miller, one specific purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to protect the right of the People — who also constitute the “militia” — to have arms suitable for fighting off a invading army (which necessarily includes ammunition suitable for that purpose). Any “arms” of any kind (including specific types of ammo and specific firearm parts such as magazines of any capacity) are automatically constitutionally protected without any further inquiry if they are “in common use at the time” for any lawful purpose. The lawful purposes go well beyond the “sporting use” the BATF uses, and include the unquestionably lawful purposes of self-defense, and preparing to fight against threats against “the security of the state” as that phrase is used in the 2nd Amendment.

However by the time it does get to court the hoarding may well have driven up the prices greatly and maybe this is what the administration's goal was all along to keep supplies low and costs high. This is just getting ridiculous. I do not blame anyone who stocks up............. I was the dummy who invested in guns and gun related tools but neglected buying ammo when I had the chance and now I am mad at myself as I should have known better.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Glock32 on February 16, 2015, 10:13:00 PM
I'm glad I bought a 900 round can of Danish M855 a while back.  Wish I had bought more.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: trapeze on February 16, 2015, 11:08:56 PM
I have thousands.

That said...I want more. I'm funny that way.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on February 17, 2015, 06:24:41 AM
Thanks Libertas,

But I believe the hoarding of 5.56 ammo has begin. The sites listed are all out of stock. Palmetto had free shipping on 420 rounds of the m855 for the past several weeks but as soon as this news broke they were out of stock quickly. From what I have been reading.......  if this goes to the courts the administration will lose. As one lawyer stated:

Quote
The fact that these clowns are going after literally the most common long-arm center-fire cartridge used in the US, by a huge margin over the next common such cartridge, makes them automatically WRONG under the Miller “in common use at the time” standard as applied in Heller. Green tip is constitutionally protected under the Miller standard precisely BECAUSE the huge amount of green tip sold proves that the People have concluded that green tip is an effective round. The People, not Congress and not the BATF, decide what we think we need.

As the Supreme Court ruled in Miller, one specific purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to protect the right of the People — who also constitute the “militia” — to have arms suitable for fighting off a invading army (which necessarily includes ammunition suitable for that purpose). Any “arms” of any kind (including specific types of ammo and specific firearm parts such as magazines of any capacity) are automatically constitutionally protected without any further inquiry if they are “in common use at the time” for any lawful purpose. The lawful purposes go well beyond the “sporting use” the BATF uses, and include the unquestionably lawful purposes of self-defense, and preparing to fight against threats against “the security of the state” as that phrase is used in the 2nd Amendment.

However by the time it does get to court the hoarding may well have driven up the prices greatly and maybe this is what the administration's goal was all along to keep supplies low and costs high. This is just getting ridiculous. I do not blame anyone who stocks up............. I was the dummy who invested in guns and gun related tools but neglected buying ammo when I had the chance and now I am mad at myself as I should have known better.

Odd, the gunbot shows in-stock and the site out, but I guess the panic really hit.

It appears you can still get decent rounds of ball ammo, it isn't the M855, but as we've said the government goons are overstating the significance of that round making it appear more nefarious than it really is simple to hide their anti-2A fascist impulses.

http://www.jgsales.com/5.56mm-federal-55gr-fmj-bt-xm193f-ammo,-1000rds-p-65682.html (http://www.jgsales.com/5.56mm-federal-55gr-fmj-bt-xm193f-ammo,-1000rds-p-65682.html)

And maybe we should each buy some of this stuff just to piss them off?! (http://www.eagleeyeguns.com/product_p/8126n.htm)

 :D

And hey, while we're at it... 

http://www.hitechammotogo.com/html/incendiary_ammunition.html (http://www.hitechammotogo.com/html/incendiary_ammunition.html)

 ::thumbsup::
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Glock32 on February 17, 2015, 10:41:56 AM
For anti-personnel use, the M193 is better anyway.  The appeal of M855 was the enormous supply chain.  It will put a serious pinch on the entire market for .223/5.56 ammo, so everything becomes more expensive and less available.

I've got a fair bit of M193 and commercial 55 grain .223, and I guess I will use that now, and keep the M855 in storage.  If the prices remain ridiculous for it, maybe I'll sell it and buy some more M193.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on February 17, 2015, 11:24:45 AM
I agree.  Good plan too.   ::thumbsup::
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Septugenarian on February 17, 2015, 04:26:48 PM
They may have been far too cleaver;
http://bearingarms.com/atf-lacks-legal-authority-ban-m855-ammunition-heres/?utm_source=bafbp&utm_medium=fbpage&utm_campaign=baupdate (http://bearingarms.com/atf-lacks-legal-authority-ban-m855-ammunition-heres/?utm_source=bafbp&utm_medium=fbpage&utm_campaign=baupdate)
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: richb on February 17, 2015, 06:25:02 PM
I have said it before,  and will say it again and again and again. 

We have to take away the rule making abilities from federal agencies.   It is INSANE that those administrating or enforcing are also creating "laws".    They aren't congress,  and they are unelected and unaccountable.    Its the reason we have the problems we have.  IMHO,  the ATF should even exist let alone make "laws" they will be enforcing.    Congress is and should be the only law and rule writing part of government.    Its laziness on the part of congress and federal agencies are taking advantage of it.   
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Alphabet Soup on February 17, 2015, 07:07:06 PM
"Wow, I don't think that I have the authority to order that" - said no fed ever.

(https://bplusmovieblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/treasure-of-the-sierra-madre-4.jpg)
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on February 18, 2015, 06:46:27 AM
I have said it before,  and will say it again and again and again. 

We have to take away the rule making abilities from federal agencies.   It is INSANE that those administrating or enforcing are also creating "laws".    They aren't congress,  and they are unelected and unaccountable.    Its the reason we have the problems we have.  IMHO,  the ATF should even exist let alone make "laws" they will be enforcing.    Congress is and should be the only law and rule writing part of government.    Its laziness on the part of congress and federal agencies are taking advantage of it.    

Yes, they've parcelled off their authority to the executive as well as the agencies under executive control, and then they wonder why these bureaucrats feel they don't have to answer to congress...

This level of perversion can only be attained if we are in fact in the latter stages of national decay.

There is only one option left, and it is the option the E-GOP has the least stomach for, because it means taking a stand...ending the funding, and let the cries of government shutdown be damned!

The E-GOP still behaves as if the Democrat-Media Complex will play nice with them, only if they behave and play ball with Democrats...by "play ball" it means cave in and give them what they want.  And they do cave in, every time, without fail.  And what is their reward?  No better treatment by the D-MC and people once the core of the GOP leaving in droves.  Still, they view the problem is with the intransigent (principled) conservatives, not the pragmatic (unprincipled) establishment types.  Anybody see that dynamic changing anytime soon?  While the Democrats of old had hardcore progressive leftists comprising a minority that eventually grew in power and appetite to the point where we are now where their party is 99.99% hardcore progressive leftists, the natural response of the GOP was to not check that by being more conservative (apart from the Reagan Revolution which they saw as an abomination and quickly subverted it as soon as he was gone), no, they saw an opportunity to be better managers of big government as being the key differentiation with the Democrats...and their delusion is such that they did not view this as a bad thing...but the people do...when picking full-big govt or partial big govt, people more often than not go for the full, and the conservative GOP has fled in mass migrations...yet the E-GOP have not changed one iota.

So, in the end there is only one way to cut the funding.  Great masses of people have to rise up and say eff this noise, no more, we are no longer going to work, no longer paying taxes, no longer listening to your pathetic excuses for not doing your constitutional duty, so to Hell with you all, we're crashing this sh*t and starting over.

But it will crash on its own weight, I seriously doubt I'll see the mass uprising that is so perfectly necessary.

So, continue to expect the worst and don't feel bad about being made into a criminal...the likes of these asshats...calling other people criminals?  Yeah, we're at the point where that isn't the insult these fools think it is!!!
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Pandora on February 18, 2015, 08:16:41 AM
Quote
There is only one option left, and it is the option the E-GOP has the least stomach for, because it means taking a stand...ending the funding, and let the cries of government shutdown be damned!

Speaking of which, did you know out of 231+k DHS employees, 200k of them are labeled "essential", which means in the event of the threatened shutdown being bandied around lately by the Dems, those "essentials" will still show up to work and be paid later?  So much for the histrionics about putting the country at risk.  The defunding passed by the House was only for Obongo's illegal amnesty; anything more would require abolishing DHS, which I can definitely live with.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on February 18, 2015, 08:27:40 AM
Quote
There is only one option left, and it is the option the E-GOP has the least stomach for, because it means taking a stand...ending the funding, and let the cries of government shutdown be damned!

Speaking of which, did you know out of 231+k DHS employees, 200k of them are labeled "essential", which means in the event of the threatened shutdown being bandied around lately by the Dems, those "essentials" will still show up to work and be paid later?  So much for the histrionics about putting the country at risk.  The defunding passed by the House was only for Obongo's illegal amnesty; anything more would require abolishing DHS, which I can definitely live with.

Even when there is plenty (or is it no matter if there is plenty) of truth to use as ammo the E-GOP cannot seem to muster enough spine to even think of using it intelligently...

And you are correct on their proposal, it is being labelled a full-defunding when it is only a partial/targeted defunding which would only be end-run by Obama sucking funds from elsewhere.

There is only real full defunding aka abolishment.  And these E-GOP idiots cannot even muster enough moxie to get a nothing thing like this partial crap across the finish line...not a very good omen for anything real, is it?!

 ::outrage::

Tired of kabuki and all BS!   ::pullhair::
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on February 18, 2015, 09:00:40 AM
Good info here via WRSA - http://weaponsman.com/?p=20933 (http://weaponsman.com/?p=20933)

Man, WRSA gets some good graphics!

(http://i585.photobucket.com/albums/ss291/libertasinfinitio/2nd%20Amendment/tfst_zpstiauiore.jpg)

Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: ChrstnHsbndFthr on February 18, 2015, 12:19:53 PM
"Wow, I don't think that I have the authority to order that" - said no fed ever.

(https://bplusmovieblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/treasure-of-the-sierra-madre-4.jpg)

Grover Cleveland came close when he said this in 1986: 


"I feel obliged to withhold my approval of the plan, as proposed by this bill, to indulge a benevolent and charitable sentiment through the appropriation of public funds for that purpose.
I can find no warrant for such an appropriation in the Constitution, and I do not believe that the power and duty of the General Government ought to be extended to the relief of individual suffering which is in no manner properly related to the public service or benefit. A prevalent tendency to disregard the limited mission of this power and duty should, I think, be steadfastly resisted, to the end that the lesson should be constantly enforced that though the people support the Government the Government should not support the people. "

He might have been the very last honest Democrat ever to hold office.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Glock32 on February 18, 2015, 02:44:11 PM
Here is a good article on this.  It raises the concern that this could be one prong of a pincer attack, the other being the EPA and its ongoing efforts to ban lead ammunition.  If you can't have lead ammunition because of environmental regulations, and you can't have lead-free ammunition because it's "armor piercing," what else is there?

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/398793/pincer-movement-ammunition-kevin-d-williamson (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/398793/pincer-movement-ammunition-kevin-d-williamson)

Quote
As it wanes, the Obama administration grows bold, and even reckless, on matters that send a thrill up the leg of its most leftward supporters. Its new attack on so-called armor-piercing ammunition — which is, in reality, a very broad attack on ammunition across the board — is a dangerous and destructive example of the administration’s late-days slide into rule-by-decree. What gun-rights advocates fear — not without reason — is that this is the beginning of a pincer movement, with the ATF banning non-lead ammunition as a threat to armor-wearing police officers and the EPA banning lead ammunition as a toxin.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Magnum on February 18, 2015, 04:49:45 PM
This vile administration bans bullets from us God Fearing and Constitution loving Americans and yet will not fight ISIS.

I never thought that one day I would be a enemy and Islam would be a ally. Wow.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on February 19, 2015, 06:29:41 AM
Just tell me when it is OK to fill them full of toxins...
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: warpmine on February 19, 2015, 06:34:31 AM
Just tell me when it is OK to fill them full of toxins...
Whenever you have the chance, go for it. Keep them in your special place with the lost firearms on the bottom of the lake
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on February 19, 2015, 07:20:27 AM
Just tell me when it is OK to fill them full of toxins...
Whenever you have the chance, go for it. Keep them in your special place with the lost firearms on the bottom of the lake

I knew I should have gotten some scuba gear!
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: warpmine on February 19, 2015, 07:35:47 AM
Just tell me when it is OK to fill them full of toxins...
Whenever you have the chance, go for it. Keep them in your special place with the lost firearms on the bottom of the lake

I knew I should have gotten some scuba gear!
Tie it all to a float just below the surface.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on February 19, 2015, 08:00:15 AM
Just tell me when it is OK to fill them full of toxins...
Whenever you have the chance, go for it. Keep them in your special place with the lost firearms on the bottom of the lake

I knew I should have gotten some scuba gear!
Tie it all to a float just below the surface.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda...   ;D
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on February 22, 2015, 05:51:43 PM
 ::pullhair::

I just inventoried the bottom of the lake...I cannot believe of all the flavors I am most lightest in AR rounds!

 ::gaah::   ::bashing:: 
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: warpmine on February 22, 2015, 06:54:32 PM
::pullhair::

I just inventoried the bottom of the lake...I cannot believe of all the flavors I am most lightest in AR rounds!

 ::gaah::   ::bashing::
That's why I prefer the heavier .30 06 rounds....they hurt so much more and go through just about everything within reason. Accuracy over distance is much better particularly in foliage.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Weisshaupt on February 22, 2015, 07:07:37 PM
::pullhair::

I just inventoried the bottom of the lake...I cannot believe of all the flavors I am most lightest in AR rounds!

 ::gaah::   ::bashing::

Thats okay, you can lift them off the UN troops you kill.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on February 23, 2015, 06:20:48 AM
::pullhair::

I just inventoried the bottom of the lake...I cannot believe of all the flavors I am most lightest in AR rounds!

 ::gaah::   ::bashing::

Thats okay, you can lift them off the UN troops you kill.

 :D

Thanks, I needed a happy thought! 
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Magnum on February 23, 2015, 05:08:19 PM
Here we go. The surplus of this ammo X855 is trickling back into the market but at ghastly prices.

Palmetto is selling the 150 rd box for $101.99 including shipping and the 1000 rd box for $605.99 shipped which is around .60 cents/round. Just a couple weeks ago I was paying .35cents/round.
http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/ (http://palmettostatearmory.com/index.php/)

So far the price of the M193 has increased slightly from 34 cents/rd to 37-38 cents/rd and seems to be available at most places.

I have written all my congress critters and the ATF even though I know it will do no good because I am represented by Betty McCollum, Al Frankienstien and Amy Klobuchar the trifecta of lefty gun hating Ideologues.

Here is a link if you feel so moved.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150218/your-action-urgently-needed-to-prevent-batfe-from-banning-common-rifle-ammunition (https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150218/your-action-urgently-needed-to-prevent-batfe-from-banning-common-rifle-ammunition)
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Glock32 on February 23, 2015, 05:33:56 PM
Yeah, I would not recommend that anyone buy it at such dramatically inflated prices. I don't want to see it banned, but it's also not worth those prices.  The Danish stuff I bought recently was about 37 cents per round.  Maybe I can sell it on GunBroker for $1 a round?
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on February 24, 2015, 06:53:51 AM
I won't even consider buying M855 anytime soon, I am just not going to pay anywhere near that much.  Like the runnup in pistol rounds, I will wait it out.  And besides, if you can get M193 for under $0.36/round why bother?

Descent bulk deals for M193 - http://www.gunbot.net/ammo/rifle/556/ (http://www.gunbot.net/ammo/rifle/556/)

Cheapest M855 I see is at $0.40/round, not sure how long that will last...you have to register I suspect to know if they still have QOH...I don't have an account with them...

http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=9019&dir=18%7c830%7c845 (http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=9019&dir=18%7c830%7c845) 

I might go for more M193.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on February 26, 2015, 11:49:46 AM
They are trying to speed up the ban, bloody fascist pricks cannot lie enough to hide the fact they are way off the loony edge with this crap!

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/article/2560750# (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/article/2560750#)!

And of course the Feds can buy as much of this stuff as they want...

Serfs with guns scare the piss out of these scumbags...reason enough alone to buy all sorts of rounds banned or not!!!
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on February 27, 2015, 12:03:09 PM
A glittering gem of a post from 12-28-12 -

What you’ll see in the rebellion-Bob Owens (http://www.bob-owens.com/2012/12/what-youll-see-in-the-rebellion/)

 ::hat-tip::
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Magnum on February 27, 2015, 01:07:42 PM
Libertas thanks for posting that article! I pray the Lord will show His favor on us and we will put in office a true Constitution loving Conservative.

Yesterday Rush, Fox news, Drudge etc talked about the ban on the m855 ammo. Today you cannot find any 5.56 even in the xm193. In 24 hours there has been such a mad rush on 5.56 ammo that is nearly gone in bulk orders. On gun broker they just sold 100 rds of m855 for $115.

Here are assorted stories on how fast 5.56 ammo is selling..........

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1722595_I_just_watched_55_000_rounds_of_5_56_go_away.html (http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1722595_I_just_watched_55_000_rounds_of_5_56_go_away.html)

As someone wrote: This president is possibly the greatest gun and ammo salesman of all times.

Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on February 27, 2015, 02:00:10 PM
I believe it, just a week or so ago when this was being discussed prices started jumping on all varieties, not just the M855 like you mentioned.  I wouldn't be surprised if run of the mill .223 is gone too, but I cannot confirm that...GunBot won't even launch for me to take a look...a sign that perhaps my guess is right...and I wouldn't be surprised if this creates another panic in other flavors people think might next be on the Fedcoat ban plan...and .22LR again as people scramble for less expensive rounds to train with...

 ::cussing::  Fascists!!!

I looked in the bottom of the lake again...I mentioned earlier I am lighter in 5.56 than I would like...but at least 1/4 of that is IMI M855!   ::thumbsup::

It's icy cold, but it's there.   ;)

It's best served cold, right?   :D
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Glock32 on February 27, 2015, 02:50:22 PM
On gun broker they just sold 100 rds of m855 for $115.



Whoa now.  If people are willing to pay that much for it, I may just start selling some!
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: IronDioPriest on February 27, 2015, 02:52:50 PM
On gun broker they just sold 100 rds of m855 for $115.



Whoa now.  If people are willing to pay that much for it, I may just start selling some!

No doubt. Or hang onto it for investment. As it stands, $115 for 100rds is about a 300% return on investment for the bricks I bought just a couple short months ago (thanks to your tip). The future may yield an even higher return.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Glock32 on March 02, 2015, 02:06:10 PM
The White Hut is arguing in favor of this ban, reasoning that "it will save cops' lives."  This is the "cop killer bullet" nonsense from the early 90s all over again.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/2/white-house-says-ammo-ban-will-save-cops-lives/ (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/2/white-house-says-ammo-ban-will-save-cops-lives/)
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on March 02, 2015, 02:54:37 PM
The White Hut is arguing in favor of this ban, reasoning that "it will save cops' lives."  This is the "cop killer bullet" nonsense from the early 90s all over again.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/2/white-house-says-ammo-ban-will-save-cops-lives/ (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/2/white-house-says-ammo-ban-will-save-cops-lives/)

What a gigantic pile of bovine excrement!!!

To believe that BS is to believe that these rounds are a) true armor-piercing rounds (which is a lie) b) that these are widely used in handguns (which is a whopper of a lie) and c) are not used by AR and other rifles for legitimate hunting and recreational shooting purposes (a lie, and since the govt is exempting itself and its vassals from this law, another nefarious lie at that).

So, unless civilians are out there slaying LEO's by the bushel with this round (I have heard of not one single instance of this!) then this is nothing but a gigantic FVCK YOU! by Obama to the American people!

Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Magnum on March 02, 2015, 04:13:30 PM
I was listening to Armed American Radio last night. They interviewed Congressman Doug Collins who is on the House Judiciary Committee and he sounded optimistic they can get ATF to drop this because of the the ATF's incoherent reasoning of why m855 should be banned. Congressman Collins said this may have also backfired on the gun haters because the purchasing of 5.56 ammo has increased to record levels and many now have significant stores of ammo.

http://armedamericanradio.org/show-archives (http://armedamericanradio.org/show-archives)

Update: Fortunately for law-abiding Americans, it appears that the audacious attempt on the heart of the Second Amendment by Obama’s ATF may end up backfiring.

http://bearingarms.com/atfs-armor-piercing-ammo-ban-may-spectacularly-backfire-renew-interest-military-style-rifles/ (http://bearingarms.com/atfs-armor-piercing-ammo-ban-may-spectacularly-backfire-renew-interest-military-style-rifles/)
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: warpmine on March 02, 2015, 05:12:39 PM
The White Hut is arguing in favor of this ban, reasoning that "it will save cops' lives."  This is the "cop killer bullet" nonsense from the early 90s all over again.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/2/white-house-says-ammo-ban-will-save-cops-lives/ (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/2/white-house-says-ammo-ban-will-save-cops-lives/)

What a gigantic pile of bovine excrement!!!

To believe that BS is to believe that these rounds are a) true armor-piercing rounds (which is a lie) b) that these are widely used in handguns (which is a whopper of a lie) and c) are not used by AR and other rifles for legitimate hunting and recreational shooting purposes (a lie, and since the govt is exempting itself and its vassals from this law, another nefarious lie at that).

So, unless civilians are out there slaying LEO's by the bushel with this round (I have heard of not one single instance of this!) then this is nothing but a gigantic FVCK YOU! by Obama to the American people!
He may be right, it could save lives. Ok then, which lives is he referring to. Certainly not the local leo so I'm assuming he means the fedcoats that have been arming themselves for the coming conflict. They may have a shortage of good body armor and have been issuing the lesser stuff that can stop pistol rounds.

What say you?
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: richb on March 02, 2015, 11:08:24 PM
Ten years ago,  I had no interest in guns at all.  So yup,  its backfired for sure. 

As soon as it possible (broke) i probably will be starting a collection. 
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on March 03, 2015, 06:36:15 AM
The White Hut is arguing in favor of this ban, reasoning that "it will save cops' lives."  This is the "cop killer bullet" nonsense from the early 90s all over again.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/2/white-house-says-ammo-ban-will-save-cops-lives/ (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/2/white-house-says-ammo-ban-will-save-cops-lives/)

What a gigantic pile of bovine excrement!!!

To believe that BS is to believe that these rounds are a) true armor-piercing rounds (which is a lie) b) that these are widely used in handguns (which is a whopper of a lie) and c) are not used by AR and other rifles for legitimate hunting and recreational shooting purposes (a lie, and since the govt is exempting itself and its vassals from this law, another nefarious lie at that).

So, unless civilians are out there slaying LEO's by the bushel with this round (I have heard of not one single instance of this!) then this is nothing but a gigantic FVCK YOU! by Obama to the American people!
He may be right, it could save lives. Ok then, which lives is he referring to. Certainly not the local leo so I'm assuming he means the fedcoats that have been arming themselves for the coming conflict. They may have a shortage of good body armor and have been issuing the lesser stuff that can stop pistol rounds.

What say you?

There is the Fedcoat protection angle to consider...however, given the blowback that always happens (the run on ammo) when they do this and the renewed interest in military style platforms (see Mag's link)...either the Obamites are oblivious of their actions or they don't care what flows into private hands in the short term.  Of these two the latter concerns me more.  I like my odds against the stupid, the intentionally evil make it more difficult.  The only reason not to care is because they hope to make much greater strides in curtailing personal freedom (up to and including the suspension of all individual rights and liberty) whereby they can just confiscate anything the State determines a threat to its absolute control, anybody resisting will simply be eliminated.

ETA - Oh, and as to this assertion (http://bearingarms.com/rogue-agency-atfs-absurd-ar-15-armor-piercing-ammo-ban-can-abuses-ban-common-rifle-pistol-ammo/), yeah...I don't doubt it.

They want mine, they can have it, one at a time.   ;)
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: warpmine on March 03, 2015, 01:26:20 PM
https://www.full30.com/video/bb4bb9aff53dc8d0be5718c7982bf55b (https://www.full30.com/video/bb4bb9aff53dc8d0be5718c7982bf55b)
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Glock32 on March 03, 2015, 01:44:30 PM

There is the Fedcoat protection angle to consider...however, given the blowback that always happens (the run on ammo) when they do this and the renewed interest in military style platforms (see Mag's link)...either the Obamites are oblivious of their actions or they don't care what flows into private hands in the short term.  Of these two the latter concerns me more.  I like my odds against the stupid, the intentionally evil make it more difficult.  The only reason not to care is because they hope to make much greater strides in curtailing personal freedom (up to and including the suspension of all individual rights and liberty) whereby they can just confiscate anything the State determines a threat to its absolute control, anybody resisting will simply be eliminated.

ETA - Oh, and as to this assertion (http://bearingarms.com/rogue-agency-atfs-absurd-ar-15-armor-piercing-ammo-ban-can-abuses-ban-common-rifle-pistol-ammo/), yeah...I don't doubt it.

They want mine, they can have it, one at a time.   ;)


I don't mean to be glib about it, but one can accomplish a lot once one has decided their life is forfeit anyway.  The would-be stormtroopers of the regime won't have the element of surprise after the first few events.  After that, people will be waiting for them.  Others will actively seek them out at times and places not of their choosing.  Even if the stormtroopers secure tactical victory at every one of these events, it's not going to come casualty-free.  How inexhaustible is their supply of people willing to be first into the breach?
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on March 03, 2015, 01:58:40 PM

There is the Fedcoat protection angle to consider...however, given the blowback that always happens (the run on ammo) when they do this and the renewed interest in military style platforms (see Mag's link)...either the Obamites are oblivious of their actions or they don't care what flows into private hands in the short term.  Of these two the latter concerns me more.  I like my odds against the stupid, the intentionally evil make it more difficult.  The only reason not to care is because they hope to make much greater strides in curtailing personal freedom (up to and including the suspension of all individual rights and liberty) whereby they can just confiscate anything the State determines a threat to its absolute control, anybody resisting will simply be eliminated.

ETA - Oh, and as to this assertion (http://bearingarms.com/rogue-agency-atfs-absurd-ar-15-armor-piercing-ammo-ban-can-abuses-ban-common-rifle-pistol-ammo/), yeah...I don't doubt it.

They want mine, they can have it, one at a time.   ;)


I don't mean to be glib about it, but one can accomplish a lot once one has decided their life is forfeit anyway.  The would-be stormtroopers of the regime won't have the element of surprise after the first few events.  After that, people will be waiting for them.  Others will actively seek them out at times and places not of their choosing.  Even if the stormtroopers secure tactical victory at every one of these events, it's not going to come casualty-free.  How inexhaustible is their supply of people willing to be first into the breach?

I don't find that glib at all, I find it a very astute question...a question I seriously doubt has been intelligently considered by Regime minions...
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: warpmine on March 03, 2015, 05:09:11 PM

There is the Fedcoat protection angle to consider...however, given the blowback that always happens (the run on ammo) when they do this and the renewed interest in military style platforms (see Mag's link)...either the Obamites are oblivious of their actions or they don't care what flows into private hands in the short term.  Of these two the latter concerns me more.  I like my odds against the stupid, the intentionally evil make it more difficult.  The only reason not to care is because they hope to make much greater strides in curtailing personal freedom (up to and including the suspension of all individual rights and liberty) whereby they can just confiscate anything the State determines a threat to its absolute control, anybody resisting will simply be eliminated.

ETA - Oh, and as to this assertion (http://bearingarms.com/rogue-agency-atfs-absurd-ar-15-armor-piercing-ammo-ban-can-abuses-ban-common-rifle-pistol-ammo/), yeah...I don't doubt it.

They want mine, they can have it, one at a time.   ;)


I don't mean to be glib about it, but one can accomplish a lot once one has decided their life is forfeit anyway.  The would-be stormtroopers of the regime won't have the element of surprise after the first few events.  After that, people will be waiting for them.  Others will actively seek them out at times and places not of their choosing.  Even if the stormtroopers secure tactical victory at every one of these events, it's not going to come casualty-free.  How inexhaustible is their supply of people willing to be first into the breach?
Quote
How inexhaustible is their supply of people willing to be first into the breach?
This is areal good point Glock makes. Consider the revolution 230 years ago. The Colonists lost most of the engagements to the Redcoats until the redcoats couldn't stand to lose the entire army at Yorktown. Clinton never new how bad Lord Cornwallis' predicament really was until to late. Granted, the French fleet finally came through to blockade the British in.

This isn't the Red Army we're fighting either and I'm certainly not going to allow them to do to us what was done to the White Russian Imperial forces. We know how the left treats it's conquered and it never was to pretty.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Glock32 on March 07, 2015, 11:12:11 AM
It has now emerged that the ATF already decided to ban M855/SS109 months ago, long before the announcement and supposed comment period.  The ATF updates its guide book of regulations every so often, the most recent edition being 2005.  Last year they began work on the 2014 edition, but it was not released until January of this year.  Some very observant people noted that the 2005 edition specifically mentioned M855/SS109 as being exempted from the ban on armor piercing ammunition, but that same exemption was missing in the 2014 edition.

This means they already made this decision months if not years ago, and shows the whole notion of a "comment period" for what it is, theater.  They are now trying to backtrack and blame this on a "publishing error."

Check out this video:

Is M855/SS109 5.56 Banned Already? **Edit---Update With Current Latest Info At End... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEOSYi5A_TY#ws)
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: John Florida on March 08, 2015, 01:15:52 PM
  When I did have guns before I sold everything I had thousands of rounds for all of them. Now I stockpile rocks and a slingshot.    ::unknowncomic::
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Pandora on March 08, 2015, 01:31:42 PM
Don't overlook a good spear.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: warpmine on March 08, 2015, 06:09:34 PM
Don't overlook a good spear.
Or a .30 caliber straw for spitballs.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: John Florida on March 08, 2015, 09:14:56 PM
  I have given thought to a spud gun but I may need a permit to have one any day now spuds may be out lawed.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on March 09, 2015, 07:16:12 AM
So, a Polish Cannon is probably a WMD, eh?
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: John Florida on March 09, 2015, 04:15:35 PM
  Watch for the jump in reloading equipment.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Alphabet Soup on March 09, 2015, 07:58:03 PM
  Watch for the jump in reloading equipment.

Guns without ammo are awkward, heavy sticks. Reloading gear without primers, powder and bullets are half-assed exercise equipment.

The gubmint has us figured out. Time to change the equation.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on March 10, 2015, 06:46:59 AM
  Watch for the jump in reloading equipment.

Guns without ammo are awkward, heavy sticks. Reloading gear without primers, powder and bullets are half-assed exercise equipment.

The gubmint has us figured out. Time to change the equation.

Amen!
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Glock32 on March 10, 2015, 11:20:13 AM
Fortunately we already have enormous quantities in private hands.  Even if everything were banned today, there's already billions (trillions?) of rounds in personal stockpiles.  If Leviathan wants to proceed with its designs on our liberty, it is going to have cross the threshold into out and out confiscation, and if there's a trigger condition you've been waiting for that's it.

I've seen people create primers out of scrap brass, or reusing spent primers, with material from match heads as the priming compound.  They are crude but they do work.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: IronDioPriest on March 10, 2015, 01:35:17 PM
They've shelved the plan to ban. (http://thehill.com/regulation/pending-regs/235216-atf-shelves-proposed-bullet-ban)

How wonderful that our Lords and Masters have deemed us permission to exercise our rights.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Pandora on March 10, 2015, 01:56:19 PM
For now.  "Shelving" means they will use a stealth -- LOOK! SQUIRREL! -- moment to impose it at another time.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Glock32 on March 10, 2015, 02:00:18 PM
Well, this is good for the whole ammo market in general.  I am convinced the only reason they backtracked is the recent revelation that they had already changed the regulatory guide book.  That revelation proved that the "comment period" was nothing but show, and that nothing the public said was going to have any bearing on the decision.

We are fortunate that government incompetence is, well, government incompetence.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on March 10, 2015, 02:40:28 PM
Demons never sleep...nor do they cease their Demonic behavior...

 ;)
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Magnum on March 10, 2015, 04:02:23 PM
I'll use myself as an example. I was a schmuck and thought after the AR ban scare after Sandy Hook things would calm down. Nope. The gun haters are relentless in trying to rob me and millions of other law abiding Americans a right,a hobby, a passion if you will that we throughly enjoy. After this latest proposed ban (for now backing off) on 855 "green tip" I hopefully will not be caught with my pants down again. I realize now they the gun haters will attack on all fronts. If they can't ban a gun, then they will try control through ammo. If this doesn't work ............ what other #*$&@# up proposal are they now working on. So I remain vigilant and just want to Thank You All for taking your time in writing the ATF and congress critters in fighting for our Second Amendment Rights. 
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Glock32 on March 10, 2015, 04:57:24 PM
I'll use myself as an example. I was a schmuck and thought after the AR ban scare after Sandy Hook things would calm down. Nope. The gun haters are relentless in trying to rob me and millions of other law abiding Americans a right,a hobby, a passion if you will that we throughly enjoy. After this latest proposed ban (for now backing off) on 855 "green tip" I hopefully will not be caught with my pants down again. I realize now they the gun haters will attack on all fronts. If they can't ban a gun, then they will try control through ammo. If this doesn't work ............ what other #*$&@# up proposal they are working on now. So I remain vigilant and just want to Thank You All for taking your time in writing the ATF and congress critters in fighting for our Second Amendment Rights. 


Any time you think you've already got enough ammo, buy another half-case.  I just received another sealed tin of 7.62x54R (440 rounds of Bulgarian, circa 1980) to add to my numerous other tins, all still sealed.  I don't shoot Mosin-Nagants very often, but I know I will never regret having these extra tins.

You don't have to go wild with it, just make a point of buying a case of ammo every couple months and in no time you'll be sitting on 10k rounds or more.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: richb on March 11, 2015, 02:56:03 AM
The reality is:  we can NEVER relax on safeguarding our rights.   Not for one minute. 

We cannot depend on a "government" to guarantee those rights.   In fact a "government" is a threat to those rights.   ANY form of  "government".   It's NEVER in the interest of a government for it to have citizens in a superior position then it does. 

That's why the bill of rights were so amazing.  It's really the only time that it was put on paper in the founding documents of a government that people had over riding rights over a government.  Some of the founders wanted to avoid putting them in.  Some insisted they be included.   For good reason.   

Maybe that is part of the reason why we have the problems we have.   They were a after thought in too many ways,  not built into the entirety of the constitution.   Maybe its not possible to make a government that won't violate human rights at some point.   So government ends up doing what they normally do,  they trample rights, even if it takes time.    Even with the rights clearly outlined, and the powers held back from the government and left with the people.

People forget that the government does not grant those rights (how could it?),  they are our rights as human beings.  Christians often describe them as God given rights.  Others may describe them as natural rights.

So the government  has no right to take something it didn't give in the first place.   The best a government can do is to not violate them.    Unfortunately our government is not doing it's best these days.

The first major cracks in the bill of rights occurred during the civil war.   Yes,  the civil war.   But that is a whole other subject.

There will alway be those who want to take our rights.  That is a REALITY as well.   A more "advanced" society does not stop that.   In fact it can make it worse.   Just look at Germany before WWII.

Some will be power hungry individuals who want them just for their own personal gain.   Those people are easier to demonize,  and some will even be open about their hunger for power.   Few people today like Hitler,  Stalin,  Pol Pot,  Castro,  just to name a few.   Yet most can inflict enormous damage,  because so many will bury their heads in the sand when they are rising.   Only government bodies make it possible for those few to do so much harm.   Hundreds of millions paid with their lives just because of these few individuals.   Just because they wanted CONTROL. 

Another type are in some ways more dangerous.   These are the people we face today.   They think they know better then the "rest of us".   They are both the islamists and the elite of our own nations.    Ever wonder why they are allied now?  Even with their major differences?   Just look at Nazis and Communists in the 1930's,  most see them today as enemies.   However back then they were allies.   Same basic major goal CONTROL,  it's the little differences that end those alliances.    It will end badly for those two groups as well.

Today's groups are insidious in their power grab.

It is all done in the name of our "own good". 

Since they know better then us,  we have to stop our activities that they have deemed wrong.  We eat the wrong things,  smoke the wrong things,  practice the wrong religions, drive vehicles that are too big,  make too much money just to name a few.    If we object,  we are demonized for various "crimes".   Like racism.   Or destroying the planet.   Stealing the future from the children.   Or practicing the wrong religion,  or for being a gun nut. 

Its hard to fight these people.  They can use unlimited resources from taxes and invented "money". They work for the government full time in thousands of government agencies.  So they will always be at "work".   Plus they fool wealthy (or not so wealthy) into spending their riches on things they should be opposing.   So many "foundations"  work 24/7 destroying freedom.   They use the poor as dupes as well.  They can be used for protesting 24/7,  and some are all too willing to destroy their own communities.  Don't get me started with the so called press and media.

We on the other hand,  have to do our regular jobs before we can defend anything.   Tea party people can only protest on the weekends or evenings,  because we have our own thing going.   Like work,  church,  family or whatever.   We cannot be on 24/7.   That's why we are losing.   We can only "do" politics in our free time.   

Its taken a century to get where we are today.  A Republican president in 2017 won't change it,  because many of that party are part of the elite.   We can only slow the "progress".   

The only way to stop it is to not allow the government to be a job.   First we have to end the "career" politician with term limits for starters.   Second,  we have to end lifetime government work.  We may need "term" limits not only for politicians but for all public sector employment. 

Also when "laws" are passed, they should first limit government power,  not limit the actions of private citizen.   Most laws are backwards in that re-guard.   

We are probably past the point where politics can fix things.   We cannot pass these government controls in todays political climate.   

People have gotten used to mostly peaceful political change.   That era is passing away quickly.   It didn't need to happen and we all will pay the price.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: John Florida on March 11, 2015, 06:31:29 AM
  Don't believe them for one nano second.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on March 11, 2015, 06:48:43 AM
I believe them to be evil and to act as evil would act, and that is the omnes circumstantis of my belief of them!

And Glock is giving good advice, I try to use that same approach and not just on ammo, but on PM's or anything else of value.   ::thumbsup::
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Glock32 on March 11, 2015, 10:24:08 AM

Its hard to fight these people.  They can use unlimited resources from taxes and invented "money". They work for the government full time in thousands of government agencies.  So they will always be at "work".   Plus they fool wealthy (or not so wealthy) into spending their riches on things they should be opposing.   So many "foundations"  work 24/7 destroying freedom.   They use the poor as dupes as well.  They can be used for protesting 24/7,  and some are all too willing to destroy their own communities.  Don't get me started with the so called press and media.
.
.
.
The only way to stop it is to not allow the government to be a job.   First we have to end the "career" politician with term limits for starters.   Second,  we have to end lifetime government work.  We may need "term" limits not only for politicians but for all public sector employment.   


This point cannot be overemphasized.  For the Left, their ideology and agenda is their job, and you're paying them to do it too.  This is the result of what Gramsci called their "long march through the institutions."  They have preoccupied themselves with careers in government and "non-profit" organizations.  They've been wildly successful, I will give them that.  Their ideology is reflected in the cultural backdrop, and is the baseline position on virtually all issues.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on March 11, 2015, 10:52:51 AM
It's like Levin's Liberty Amendments...good ideas but they cannot make it through the current poisoned system...

They couldn't get term limits through, even though they had it in the Contract with America...they voted on it, they lost (with the help of eGOP traitors) and they dropped it...and it hasn't come up since...nor is it ever likely to...

The forces against Liberty are not going to be defeated easily or cheaply...and certainly not on this severely tilted landscape.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Pandora on March 11, 2015, 01:22:38 PM
Quote
It's like Levin's Liberty Amendments...good ideas but they cannot make it through the current poisoned system...

They couldn't get term limits through, even though they had it in the Contract with America...they voted on it, they lost ...

The "Liberty Amendments" won't be going through the current poisoned system in DC.  The only place they have in an Article V Convention is to call for one when a majority of the States determine they shall.  Likewise, they won't be voting on or in any Amendment; they are also determined and voted on by the States only, needing a majority to ratify.

This Article V Convention of the States will happen, be it sooner or later.  It will have to.  I'd rather see it happen sooner, but if not, it will need doing before anything can be rebuilt after the dung meets the rotating oscillator.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on March 11, 2015, 01:59:54 PM
Quote
It's like Levin's Liberty Amendments...good ideas but they cannot make it through the current poisoned system...

They couldn't get term limits through, even though they had it in the Contract with America...they voted on it, they lost ...

The "Liberty Amendments" won't be going through the current poisoned system in DC.  The only place they have in an Article V Convention is to call for one when a majority of the States determine they shall.  Likewise, they won't be voting on or in any Amendment; they are also determined and voted on by the States only, needing a majority to ratify.

This Article V Convention of the States will happen, be it sooner or later.  It will have to.  I'd rather see it happen sooner, but if not, it will need doing before anything can be rebuilt after the dung meets the rotating oscillator.

Yes, all true...I let it go without saying that far too many states are also carriers of the DC poison, they will be subject to heavy-handed "you better not call for one, or else!" and if one is called "any state ratifying just one amendment will get it!" threats from Fedcoats, and the presstitutes that far too many pay heed to (though more so than the DemonRats...I can't seem to ever understand that one), the unionistas, the race-baiters, all the loony-tune special interest thugs, punks and slugs agitating the public...FSA and ferals rioting and burning crap and beating people to death...all pressuring states and state politicans to do what they do best - piss their pants and surrender to their demands.  They never capitulate to our demands...only theirs.

If we're going to have only one side tossing crap...might as well cut to the chase and let all side toss crap.

I am certainly not opposed to the effort, I like 90-95% of what Mark came up with in the Liberty Amendments...but like anything keeping officials focused and firm and countering the trash on the streets isn't something I've seen folks have much of a stomach for...as yet.

I think a new charter of liberty will be in the offing once the flames die out...

My two bits...FWIW.


ETA - Re: Liberty Amendments (l had to grab my book for better recall) l had an issue with:

1) Bureaucracy - l would go beyond the Joint Committee, I think non-Critical departments and agencies (those not involving national security and foreign affairs) should be answerable only to Congress, the Executive could name an advisor to consult policy and administrative affairs, but officers must report to and be accountable to the people through their representatives, the Congressional delegation to Committees could incorporate this into their existing scope and the amendment would need to limit acts to increase size, scope, personnel, etc to a 3\5 vote in the full House & Senate.  The critical departments would retain their current configuration but with more Congressional consent weighted than the advice (drive by briefing) role.  Job number one paring down the bureaucracy drastically.

2) Private property - l would go further, create a process that each step puts the burden of need on the governments compelling interest so that the rights of private property are respected more.

3) Voting - Again l would go further and establish more precise requirements, more transparency in the process, harsh consequences for fraud, and a more limited in scope recount process and maybe even stakeholder requirement that only net taxpayers be allowed to vote.

4) Something has to be done about the Fed and monetary policy and banking.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: warpmine on March 14, 2015, 12:41:14 PM
Effing gun grabbing piece of scat Todd Jones is still looking to make your AR as a valued club albeit mean and nasty looking.  http://bearingarms.com/atf-chief-suggests-5-56-ammo-threat-law-enforcement/ (http://bearingarms.com/atf-chief-suggests-5-56-ammo-threat-law-enforcement/)

Quote
B. Todd Jones, the Director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) told a Senate Appropriations Committee meeting today that he considers all 5.56 NATO to be a threat to enforcement officers.

    In a Senate Appropriations Committee hearing, ATF Director B. Todd Jones said all types of the 5.56 military-style ammo used by shooters pose a threat to police as more people buy the AR-15-style pistols.

    “Any 5.56 round” is “a challenge for officer safety,” he said. Jones asked lawmakers to help in a review of a 1986 bill written to protect police from so-called “cop killer” rounds that largely exempted rifle ammo like the 5.56 because it has been used by target shooters, not criminals.

The ATF only temporarily retreated from a plot to ban very popular and common M855 ball ammunition two day ago. The agency wants to claim that M855 is an “armor-piercing” round according to a new “framework” of the agency’s owne design, even though the cartridge has been used in the United States since the 1970s and has never met the legal definition of the term previously. It is not considered to be armor-piercing by the military, which stocks a real armor-piercing rounds that civilians cannot own called the M995.  Purely as a matter of performance against humans the M855 is an abysmal failure, which is why it was abandoned by the military for combat, and why it has been surplussed out as training ammunition.

The NRA and both houses of Congress blasted the ATF plot on M855 as simply the precursor to an attempt to ban all 5.56/.223 Remington ammunition, which would destroy the ammunition market for the most common rifle sold in the United States. Jones’ testimony suggests that is precisely the position the agency would like to take.

Worse, that position suggests that any rifle bullet that is currently chambered in an AR-15—and therefore can theoretically be had in an AR-15 pistol—is a threat to officer safety. That could affect as many as 51 rifle cartridges.

Clearly, this framework from unelected bureaucrats is a potential threat to all rifle ammunition.

 * * *

The proper answer to the ATF’s gross overreach is to completely do away with the “sporting purposes” test in the Gun Control Act of 1968, and used on a whim by the ATF in other decisions since. It is an absurd position that firearms and ammunition must have a “sporting purpose” for hunters or target shooters to be lawful.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Pandora on March 14, 2015, 01:16:28 PM
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... he considers all 5.56 NATO to be a threat to enforcement officers.

It's supposed to be a threat.  Such is the purpose of 2A.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: John Florida on March 14, 2015, 07:19:33 PM
Quote
... he considers all 5.56 NATO to be a threat to enforcement officers.

It's supposed to be a threat.  Such is the purpose of 2A.



     Zackly
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on March 16, 2015, 07:12:02 AM
What Pan said...with mustard!!!  ::thumbsup::
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Magnum on March 20, 2015, 02:39:37 PM
BREAKING: After Scrapping AR-15 Ammo Ban, ATF Director B. Todd Jones Resigning

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/03/20/breaking-atf-director-b-todd-jones-resigning-controversy-over-ammo-ban-cited-n1973746?utm_source=thdailypm&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl_pm&newsletterad= (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/03/20/breaking-atf-director-b-todd-jones-resigning-controversy-over-ammo-ban-cited-n1973746?utm_source=thdailypm&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl_pm&newsletterad=)
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Pandora on March 20, 2015, 10:11:21 PM
BREAKING: After Scrapping AR-15 Ammo Ban, ATF Director B. Todd Jones Resigning

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/03/20/breaking-atf-director-b-todd-jones-resigning-controversy-over-ammo-ban-cited-n1973746?utm_source=thdailypm&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl_pm&newsletterad= (http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2015/03/20/breaking-atf-director-b-todd-jones-resigning-controversy-over-ammo-ban-cited-n1973746?utm_source=thdailypm&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=nl_pm&newsletterad=)

Quote
In the meantime Acting Director Tom Brandon, who has a history of failing to not only punish bad behavior within the agency but condone it, will be in charge.

Unh hunh.  Yay.
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Glock32 on March 21, 2015, 11:28:15 AM
Leftists are like rust, they never sleep.


Quote

M855 Plot Thickens: Congressman Proposes Center-Fire Ammo Ban


You didn’t need a crystal ball to see this one coming. On Monday, a week after the BATFE withdrew its plan to ban M855 as “armor-piercing ammunition,” U.S. Rep. Steve Israel (D-N.Y.) announced that he intends to introduce legislation to “extend the definition of armor-piercing ammunition to include all bullets that can pierce body armor and be used in handguns.”

The reason you didn’t need a crystal ball is that gun control supporters have been pushing this idea for years. In the 1980s, after NBC-TV did an attack piece on bullets invented for law enforcement officers to shoot through walls and doors, disingenuously calling them “Cop Killer Bullets,” gun control supporters seized upon the term and proposed legislation to ban any bullet that could penetrate a soft protective vest.

Fortunately, the Departments of Justice and Treasury, along with the NRA, opposed the “performance-based” approach to defining “armor-piercing ammunition,” because it would have banned virtually all center-fire rifle ammunition and some center-fire handgun ammunition. Therefore, in 1986, Congress instead adopted a “construction-based” approach, defining bullets as “armor-piercing ammunition” based upon the metals from which they are made.

In the 1990s, President Bill Clinton and then-Rep. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) pushed for a performance-based bullet ban within terrorism legislation. A study released by the BATFE in April 1997, however, concluded “existing laws are working, no additional legislation regarding such laws is necessary.”

Now, the BATFE’s recent attempt to ban M855 has inspired gun control supporters to take another shot at a near-total center-fire bullet ban, and in the case of Rep. Israel, to do so without knowing the first thing about the subject. Israel says his bill is necessary “because of significant developments in bullet propellants, coatings and materials, such as Teflon.”

To which we have to ask: Seriously, Teflon? The substance used to coat skillets and 1970s-era all-steel handgun bullets invented for law enforcement officers, so the bullets wouldn’t scratch the rifling of the officers’ handgun barrels? Teflon, which has nothing to do with whether a bullet can penetrate a protective vest? Teflon (speaking of Clinton), the substance said to cover dishonest, misbehaving public officials who nevertheless skirt scrutiny and accountability again and again?

As we have previously noted, in the 38 years that the FBI has reported the caliber of handguns used to kill law enforcement officers, no such crime has been committed with a handgun capable of firing M855 or any other .223 or 5.56mm cartridge.

Rep. Israel is right about one thing, however. He says that the 1986 law that the BATFE tried to twist in order to ban M855 “is outdated.” Indeed, it is, but not in the way that Israel imagines. The law should be amended to narrow BATFE’s discretion to ban ammunition. It should be understood to cover only such bullets as are designed for the express purpose of penetrating protective vests when loaded into pistol-caliber cartridges and fired from handguns. It should further exempt all bullets that are primarily intended for any legitimate purpose, including self-defense.

http://www.nraila.org/articles/20150320/m855-plot-thickens-congressman-proposes-center-fire-ammo-ban (http://www.nraila.org/articles/20150320/m855-plot-thickens-congressman-proposes-center-fire-ammo-ban)
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on March 23, 2015, 07:07:09 AM
So effing typical...Jones forced to fall on his sword, new a-hole comes in to supposedly clean house but instead will triple-down on the stupid and an asshat DemoProg proposes legislation that should never be brought forth in a free nation...

Effing zombies...

So tired of these malignant bastards!!!
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: warpmine on March 23, 2015, 07:12:57 AM
So effing typical...Jones forced to fall on his sword, new a-hole comes in to supposedly clean house but instead will triple-down on the stupid and an asshat DemoProg proposes legislation that should never be brought forth in a free nation...

Effing zombies...

So tired of these malignant bastards!!!
Surely, you didn't think something was going to change??
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: Libertas on March 23, 2015, 07:58:13 AM
So effing typical...Jones forced to fall on his sword, new a-hole comes in to supposedly clean house but instead will triple-down on the stupid and an asshat DemoProg proposes legislation that should never be brought forth in a free nation...

Effing zombies...

So tired of these malignant bastards!!!
Surely, you didn't think something was going to change??

Not from their ranks, no.

The tolerance of the average Amrican to take this shat though never ceases to enrage me...
Title: Re: ATF plans to ban most popular type of 5.56 ammo
Post by: t55 on October 24, 2017, 04:41:28 AM
BATF = Bad Attitude Towards Freedom