It's About Liberty: A Conservative Forum

Topics => General Board => Topic started by: BigAlSouth on March 15, 2011, 08:54:19 AM

Title: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: BigAlSouth on March 15, 2011, 08:54:19 AM
By now, unless you have been floating on a house in the sea of Japan, everyone should be up to speed on James O'Keefe's latest video sting (Project Veritus) of NPR execs meeting with a presumed Muslim Brotherhood Front Group, talking about Republicans, Tea Partiers and racism.

While Glen Beck was on vacation, Scott Baker, a writer/producer of the website known as "The Blaze" did a take-down of the video originally posted by O'Keefe and comes to the conclusion that the editing process was an unfair representation of what Ron Schiller said. The statements of Schiller were edited without context. "A closer review of those tapes, however, shows that many of Ron Schiller’s most provocative remarks were presented in a misleading way."

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/npr-report-on-editing-ethics-in-expose-video-features-blaze-analysis/ (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/npr-report-on-editing-ethics-in-expose-video-features-blaze-analysis/)

Patterico has an excellent take town of the whole deal:

http://patterico.com/2011/03/14/on-the-blazes-accusations-of-misleading-editing-by-okeefe/comment-page-4/#comment-764011 (http://patterico.com/2011/03/14/on-the-blazes-accusations-of-misleading-editing-by-okeefe/comment-page-4/#comment-764011)

It is amazing to me that, when Ron Schiller repeatedly employs this trick in the NPR video released recently, it is described as Schiller speaking warmly of Republicans. Thus, if James O’Keefe cuts that part out, he is (so the leftists claim) being deceptive.

A piece for the Blaze accuses James O’Keefe of deceptive editing. For example:

    Schiller’s negative comments about Republicans and conservatives have gotten a great deal of attention.

    He clearly says some offensive things, while being very direct that he is giving his own opinion and not that of NPR. Still — a wildly stupid move!

    But you may be surprised to learn, that in the raw video, Schiller also speaks positively about the GOP. He expresses pride in his own Republican heritage and his belief in fiscal conservatism.

Yeah, Schiller reveals himself to be a huge fan of the Republican party in the Blaze’s clip. He describes an anti-intellectual move that he sees developing in the current Republican party. Then he starts waxing on and on about how he was raised Republican — but, since he is a pure Democrat, he catches himself and acknowledges that he has “voted mostly Democratic lately.” (“Mostly” my ass!) He loves Republicans’ fiscal conservatism, he claims (which I guess is why he votes for those fiscally conservative Democrats). Then he describes the current Tea Party as “fanatically” involved in people’s personal lives and “very fundamentally Christian, and I wouldn’t even call it Christian, it’s this weird evangelical kind of move.”
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: IronDioPriest on March 15, 2011, 11:41:52 AM
It really is maddening. The Left lies with every single f**king breath. Not a word of truth or honest idea passes their lips.

And yet a young conservative man gets NPR execs to admit on video everything we've always been saying is true, and some dipsh*t on our side feels the need to parse out the level of creativity in editing?

No. Killer. Instinct. From the conservative "intelligentsia".
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: Pandora on March 15, 2011, 11:58:21 AM
It's that "high road", "purity" bullsht at work.
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: John Florida on March 15, 2011, 12:06:12 PM
It's that "high road", "purity" bullsht at work.

 Or building their own credibility.At O'Keefe's expense.
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: AmericanPatriot on March 15, 2011, 12:20:33 PM
Heard Beck talk about this on radio yesterday.
"The truth has no agenda"

O'Keefe does great stuff but has done a couple dumb things, too. (Bugging that Senator's office)

If Beck is correct, O'Keefe's actions will do more to harm the effort of getting rid of NPR and all their Communist crap
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: Pandora on March 15, 2011, 12:26:46 PM
An attempted bugging.  Let's keep the facts straight.
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: charlesoakwood on March 15, 2011, 12:45:58 PM
An attempted bugging.  Let's keep the facts straight.

Let's get those THIRD PARTY candidates up and running.

Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: Pandora on March 15, 2011, 12:56:06 PM
An attempted bugging.  Let's keep the facts straight.

Let's get those THIRD PARTY candidates up and running.



??
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: IronDioPriest on March 15, 2011, 01:18:06 PM
Heard Beck talk about this on radio yesterday.
"The truth has no agenda"

O'Keefe does great stuff but has done a couple dumb things, too. (Bugging that Senator's office)

If Beck is correct, O'Keefe's actions will do more to harm the effort of getting rid of NPR and all their Communist crap

Beck is right, the truth has no agenda. It just is.

But I have an agenda, and so should anyone who loves this country. My agenda includes doing whatever it takes within the boundaries of morality, righteousness, and truth to save the country. I understand the need for truth. But I also understand that if our opposition is willing to do and say anything in service of their agenda, and we are not even willing to tread on gray area, then we might as well hand them the frackin' keys and start asking how much liberty they would like us to give away.

The thing that grates me is that O'Keefe didn't lie. The Left lies. O'Keefe exposed the truth and exaggerated the effect of it by "coloring" the story with creative editing. The Leftist Schiller said what he said. The gist of what was exposed was not changed by the editing.

But instead of focusing on what was exposed and the monumental moment of clarity it provides, Beck is going to focus on "coloration" of the story that occurred in editing. It is not O'Keefe's editing that will detract from the damage to NPR, but rather conservative hand-wringing over appearances and "high-ground".

My ¢.02, of course.
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: Libertas on March 15, 2011, 01:44:01 PM
Not that tone thing again!

 ::mooning::
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: Glock32 on March 15, 2011, 01:53:24 PM
Good point IDP. Our opponents are driven by only one maxim: "by any means necessary". We must bear that in mind at all times.

Now, we don't need to tread on so much of that gray area that we "stoop to their level" (which seems to be an overriding and outsize concern behind GOP fecklessness, e.g. the House rules), but we should also not shrink away from doing what we must to help give the Left enough of the proverbial rope to hang themselves with. Jefferson has a quote, along the lines of "it is a virtue to adhere to the rules with utmost fidelity, but not to such an extent that one allows grave threats to go unchallenged". That's how I see this.

I recall there was some similar sniping from our side against Andrew Breitbart during the Shirley Sherrod incident. I was irritated by that too, because you don't publicly criticize or call into question your own side unless there's genuine policy differences at play. The liberals understand this instinctively, and our side needs to figure it out. I'm not sure what conservatives think they're going to accomplish with this posture. What, the media will all of a sudden acknowledge it and shower us with accolades for being so forthright?
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: Pandora on March 15, 2011, 01:59:13 PM
Yes.  Accolades, glittery pixie dust, manna from heaven, hosannas and forgiveness for all sins, particularly of racism, past and future and all credit due for tolerance beyond the call of duty.

I'm sure unicorn farts enter in there somewhere but I'm unfamiliar with the map.

Good thing I don't have to go out today; there's a damn good chance somebody may have gotten smashed.
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: BigAlSouth on March 15, 2011, 02:23:51 PM
An attempted bugging.  Let's keep the facts straight.

Factually incorrect. There was no bugging of Sen. Landrieu's telephone lines. They dressed as telephone workers to gain access to her office in order to assess whether her staff was answering the telephones during the health care vote. The four yoots were originally charged with felony tampering of her phone system. From Breitbart:

Four conservative activists accused of trying to tamper with the phones in Sen. Mary Landrieu’s office have pleaded guilty to misdemeanor charges of entering federal property under false pretenses.  . . .
The FBI has said O’Keefe used his cell phone to try to capture video of two men who posed as telephone repairmen and asked to see the phones.

http://biggovernment.com/publius/2010/05/26/james-okeefe-pleads-guilty-to-misdemeanor-in-sen-landrieu-phone-stunt/ (http://biggovernment.com/publius/2010/05/26/james-okeefe-pleads-guilty-to-misdemeanor-in-sen-landrieu-phone-stunt/)

The media pushed the meme that this stunt was on the same level as the Watergate Break-in, resulting in felony convictions for breaking and entering and bugging phones. There was no bugging, no attempted bugging, no conspiracy top bug, or breaking and entering. They were not truthful when asked by security why they wanted access to Landrieu's office, thus the misdemeanor charge of "false pretense." 

BFD on the BAS Scale of Justice.
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: charlesoakwood on March 15, 2011, 02:46:51 PM
Yes.  Accolades, glittery pixie dust, manna from heaven, hosannas and forgiveness for all sins, particularly of racism, past and future and all credit due for tolerance beyond the call of duty.

I'm sure unicorn farts enter in there somewhere but I'm unfamiliar with the map.

Good thing I don't have to go out today; there's a damn good chance somebody may have gotten smashed.

Down with the handwringers!     Down with the handwringers!    Down with the handwringers!



It's time to support a team that seeks forgiveness from the Almighty and not the Democrats.
McConnell, Boehner & Partners, LLP. destiny is private practice.  It is time to rid ourselves of them.



Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: IronDioPriest on March 15, 2011, 03:00:29 PM
The cacophony of battle at once engulfs your consciousness and yet goes unnoticed, as you and your countrymen are beset on all sides by mortal enemies. Hacking, slashing. Battle-cries and cries of agony. Sword and spear on flesh and bone, you carve through your formidable enemy even as he hacks away at your army.

For years this enemy has taken ground from your realm, and yet you and your countrymen have fought valiantly, reclaiming what you could, and vowing that someday, your heirs would possess all that is rightfully theirs. Today, although you continue to take casualties, it appears that your efforts are being rewarded, as the battle turns in your favor.

Nearby, at a key moment, you notice your enemy's commanding general astride his armored steed, squaring off with your unhorsed comrade, Sir O'Keefe. Then in a moment of good fortune, this man who has for years inflicted countless crimes upon your people is suddenly thrown from his horse. In an instant, your comrade stands atop him with his spear at the throat. Even as you dispatch another enemy, and another, you notice the general pleading for mercy; in fact he begs and shrieks like a child. But before the second and third plea can fully escape his lips, the tip of O'Keefe's spear pierces the ground behind his head, the life sputtering out his throat as the spear is withdrawn to fight again. You take note of the standing order to take the general alive if possible, but there is a battle to be fought, and there is no time for second-guessing your comrade now.

At long last, the battle is over, casualties strewn about the field. For the moment your enemy has retreated, stitching wounds, amputating limbs, and cauterizing the stumps. His immediate ability to attack is crippled by the loss of many men. But the most severe blow was Sir O'Keefe's felling of their commanding general. The very viability of the brigade formerly under the general's command is now in question thanks to O'Keefe and his decisive blow. You think again of the standing order to capture the general alive, but given the circumstances and the great victory achieved by his death, you put those thoughts of propriety aside for now.

As your army clears the battlefield, murmurs turn to jovial talk of a great victorious battle in the war as news spreads that the enemy's mighty general was killed. Songs begin to spring up about O'Keefe and his mighty spear. You remember that pivotal moment, fortunate to have been so close at the moment of his glory. You also remember the general's pleas for mercy...

...upon return to your king, news of the victory has preceded you. Being a knight of the court, there is no escaping the barrage of questions about the battle at the victory feast. Talk among the king and his nobility turns toward the killing of the general, and the manner of his death. You remember the scene, and the standing order....

[blockquote]You:
A) Speak of the mighty heroism of your army and Sir O'Keefe, recounting how in the fever pitch of battle, your comrade repelled and killed a mighty foe that had plagued your kingdom for years.
B) Tell your king and everyone else that even though there was a standing order to capture the general who was pleading for his life, your comrade killed him when he may have been captured, putting Sir O'Keefe at risk, and weakening your army's morale.[/blockquote]

(Thanks for indulging me. Sometimes a thought just needs an outlet.)
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: charlesoakwood on March 15, 2011, 03:18:35 PM

The military has a technical term for the parlance of (B).  Chickensh~t is the term.

Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: IronDioPriest on March 15, 2011, 04:35:05 PM
...It's time to support a team that seeks forgiveness from the Almighty and not the Democrats....

Man, do I love that quote. Spot-on.
 ::bows:: ::cool::
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: John Florida on March 15, 2011, 04:48:27 PM
...It's time to support a team that seeks forgiveness from the Almighty and not the Democrats....

Man, do I love that quote. Spot-on.
 ::bows:: ::cool::

 That's gonna leave a mark!!
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: Libertas on March 15, 2011, 07:48:28 PM
...It's time to support a team that seeks forgiveness from the Almighty and not the Democrats....

Man, do I love that quote. Spot-on.
 ::bows:: ::cool::

Short, simple and accurate.

What's not to like?

 ::thumbsup::
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: trapeze on March 15, 2011, 08:16:04 PM
Not that tone thing again!

 ::mooning::

(http://i52.tinypic.com/2z4fh9e.jpg)
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: Libertas on March 15, 2011, 08:44:48 PM
Is that a...

...what the hell is that?!

 ::hysterical::
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: John Florida on March 15, 2011, 09:05:23 PM
Is that a...

...what the hell is that?!

 ::hysterical::

 You had to ask didn't you. ::rockethrow::
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: trapeze on March 15, 2011, 09:31:18 PM
Is that a...

...what the hell is that?!

 ::hysterical::

It's the new tone.

(http://i52.tinypic.com/2z4fh9e.jpg)

It's a metaphor. It represents someone at CT.
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: Libertas on March 15, 2011, 09:42:28 PM
Heh.
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: trapeze on March 15, 2011, 09:43:59 PM
I think they have four or five members there.

The metaphor is open to interpretation.

Long live the new tone.
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: charlesoakwood on March 15, 2011, 10:11:56 PM

Man, you really have a metaphor for someone.

Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: trapeze on March 15, 2011, 10:21:02 PM
I am, admittedly, pretty annoyed and still quite bitter about the whole tone thing. But I can have fun with it, too.

And it's a breadstick.

JF can utter a big sigh of relief.
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: Pandora on March 15, 2011, 11:18:01 PM
An attempted bugging.  Let's keep the facts straight.

Factually incorrect. There was no bugging of Sen. Landrieu's telephone lines. They dressed as telephone workers to gain access to her office in order to assess whether her staff was answering the telephones during the health care vote. The four yoots were originally charged with felony tampering of her phone system. From Breitbart:

Four conservative activists accused of trying to tamper with the phones in Sen. Mary Landrieu’s office have pleaded guilty to misdemeanor charges of entering federal property under false pretenses.  . . .
The FBI has said O’Keefe used his cell phone to try to capture video of two men who posed as telephone repairmen and asked to see the phones.

http://biggovernment.com/publius/2010/05/26/james-okeefe-pleads-guilty-to-misdemeanor-in-sen-landrieu-phone-stunt/ (http://biggovernment.com/publius/2010/05/26/james-okeefe-pleads-guilty-to-misdemeanor-in-sen-landrieu-phone-stunt/)

The media pushed the meme that this stunt was on the same level as the Watergate Break-in, resulting in felony convictions for breaking and entering and bugging phones. There was no bugging, no attempted bugging, no conspiracy top bug, or breaking and entering. They were not truthful when asked by security why they wanted access to Landrieu's office, thus the misdemeanor charge of "false pretense." 

BFD on the BAS Scale of Justice.

I further stand corrected.  Thanks, BAS.
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: Libertas on March 16, 2011, 07:45:24 AM
I think they have four or five members there.

The metaphor is open to interpretation.

Long live the new tone.

5?!

Where'd they find another toner?

 ::hysterical::
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: AmericanPatriot on March 16, 2011, 08:58:04 AM
Beck doesn't always get it right.
However, if the vids were edited to give a different result than actually happened, I'll agree  with him.

The point is that NPR and PBS should not be receiving fed funds.
Regardless of whether they have a Communist slant or are Birchers.

Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: IronDioPriest on March 16, 2011, 09:17:59 AM
Beck doesn't always get it right.
However, if the vids were edited to give a different result than actually happened, I'll agree  with him.

From what I've gathered the editing of the video did not change the essential facts that were exposed. Even the parsing by "theblaze" does not suggest that Schiller didn't say what he said - only that contextual things were deceptively edited to enhance the negative impression of what was already negative anyway without the deception. That is a fine line, I realize. I only make the point to say that I don't think O'Keefe's editing gives a different result than what actually happened. I think his editing attempts to guarantee that the negative perception of NPR's malfeasance would be more easily recognized.

Think about how egregiously Michael Moore distorts the facts in his films, and how eagerly the Left consumes his bullspit as truth. What O'Keefe does is not even remotely close to that level of deceptive editing. I just don't believe that what O'Keefe has done can legitimately be called a lie, especially when one holds his work up to the Leftist propaganda machine.

The point is that NPR and PBS should not be receiving fed funds.
Regardless of whether they have a Communist slant or are Birchers.

That is absolutely the most principled principled position. Would that such a case could be made to the public without the need to resort to "takedowns" and humiliation.
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: radioman on March 16, 2011, 09:23:05 AM
He just zeroed in to the part of the interview that he wanted to expose. You can't release raw video, it has to be edited.

Politicians talk out of both sides of their mouth all the time, so editing out the crap is not necessarily a con job.
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: John Florida on March 16, 2011, 09:40:01 AM
He just zeroed in to the part of the interview that he wanted to expose. You can't release raw video, it has to be edited.

Politicians talk out of both sides of their mouth all the time, so editing out the crap is not necessarily a con job.


 But O'keefe posted the whole vid on his site after he relaesed the second tape. So he wasn't trying to hide anything he was going for the attention first.The Blaze got the vid from O'keefes site.
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: IronDioPriest on March 16, 2011, 09:49:08 AM
He just zeroed in to the part of the interview that he wanted to expose. You can't release raw video, it has to be edited.

Politicians talk out of both sides of their mouth all the time, so editing out the crap is not necessarily a con job.


He did a couple other things too, like taking one of Schiller's reactions to a statement made by the faux 'Slims and editing it so it appeared that he was reacting to something else they'd said. It's fair to critique that tactic, but I personally think it's counterproductive to do so. The critiques do more harm to the cause than the editing, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: radioman on March 16, 2011, 10:11:32 AM
So, can we extrapolate to expect NPR rehiring the Schiller's?? :)
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: AmericanPatriot on March 16, 2011, 10:20:24 AM
I'm open to being corrected.
Thanks for the info.

I'm a fan of O'Keefe. And he has done some great work.
In a fair world, possibly Pulitzer.

As far as Beck.
Do you think he's letting his "righteousness" get in the way or some other reason?
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: radioman on March 16, 2011, 10:23:52 AM
I'm with you AP. I love what O'keefe is doing. Especially since the media doesn't seem interested in exposing lies.

I think the critique that Beck is making is too trivial to take seriously. Like I said, all videos are editited before releasing. Since he posts the raw footage on his web site for those that are interested shows that he's not trying to hide anything either.
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: IronDioPriest on March 16, 2011, 10:32:27 AM
I'm open to being corrected.
Thanks for the info.
I wouldn't even say you're wrong AP. Here I am, I feel like I'm advocating something other than the truth. What I'm really trying to advocate is the idea that conservatives constantly engaging in self-scrutiny and self-excoriation goes over the top in some instances. I think we have to demand the truth from our side. But I think that we shouldn't help the Left portray our own as liars when tactical creative use of facts and truth more accurately describes the behavior.

...As far as Beck.
Do you think he's letting his "righteousness" get in the way or some other reason?

I think Beck is hyper-sensitive to being criticized for inaccuracy, and to being seen as 100% honest. I get it. It just frustrates me. Let the Left parse the work James O'Keefe. Why does Beck feel the need to chime in? That's what I don't get. If O'Keefe was working for Beck, then yeah. But he's just a guy with a video cam and his own thing going on. Beck didn't have to comment one way or the other, aside from just playing O'Keefe's video and letting the Left tear it apart if they thought they could.
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: Libertas on March 16, 2011, 10:34:13 AM
Y'all make excellent points, and I'm in O'Keefe's corner, he's digging deeper into issues...something the press as learned to ignore, especially if it defeats their advance of or defense of the proglodyte agenda.

I'd really like to see what this kid could do with a bigger budget and a large staff!

 ;D
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: AmericanPatriot on March 16, 2011, 10:53:27 AM
Thanks, radioman and IDP

One thing I've noticed about conservatives is we stand in a circle with our guns facing into the circle and then firing.
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: radioman on March 16, 2011, 11:11:57 AM
Thanks, radioman and IDP

One thing I've noticed about conservatives is we stand in a circle with our guns facing into the circle and then firing.

Didn't our early settlers circle their wagons so that they could shoot outwardly at their enemies and not inwardly at their supporters?

 
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: AmericanPatriot on March 16, 2011, 11:28:14 AM
Radioman, that would make sense and would be used if someone had a clue.

We are so fragmented and like Al Capp said in Pogo, "We have met the enemy and he is us"

On another board I frequent, the Paulistas and Libertarians shoot the conservatives. Enough trolls go through to stir things up.

There is also a ton of single issue people.
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: Glock32 on March 16, 2011, 12:51:48 PM
Quote
We are so fragmented and like Al Capp said in Pogo, "We have met the enemy and he is us"

On another board I frequent, the Paulistas and Libertarians shoot the conservatives. Enough trolls go through to stir things up.

Remember that obnoxious kid in one of your freshman college classes, the one who argued with the teacher on pointless minutiae and asked pretentious questions designed not to obtain information but to serve as a vehicle for the display of his own staggering intellect? That kid was definitely a libertarian, and nowadays spends his time combing the web for the User Comments sections at news articles where someone has dared to make an unflattering comment about Ron Paul that needs an immediate rebuttal.

That's how the big-L libertarians always strike me. They're like that kid from the neighborhood who raised esoteric technical objections when you were simply trying to play GI Joe or Transformers. "Nuh-uh! This helicopter has super invisible armor, your guys can't see it!" Everyone was always glad when you heard his mom calling him home for lunch, which you assumed was probably chunky peanut butter and jelly on wheat bread washed down with a flat house-brand cola. Or was that just me?
Title: Re: Beck's Blaze Blows Brotherhood Sting
Post by: AmericanPatriot on March 16, 2011, 01:03:15 PM
Great analogy Glock 32.

May I steal it to use in the "other Place"