It's About Liberty: A Conservative Forum

Forum Business => Member Original Diaries => Topic started by: Weisshaupt on November 10, 2014, 06:03:44 AM

Title: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Weisshaupt on November 10, 2014, 06:03:44 AM
So CHF's comment to my bunker entertainment thread got me thinking..

(warning, the following is likely to challenge  your faith, as its largely a description of what is challenging mine.  If you find yourself getting angry, upset or otherwise uncomfortable, please understand that 1) I am not trying to piss anyone off 2) you are perfectly free to stop reading and ignore me)


So many of you know that while I am sympathetic to Christianity, and adhere largely to the Christian definition of morality,  that I do not count myself as Christian because I have always found myself unable to accept - on faith - Christ as my savior.  It often feels to me that God just doesn't want me to take that path, just as he seems keen on discouraging me from playing cards by giving me more than my statistical due of bad hands.
As far as my life goes, I have always been lucky when it counted, and I also ascribe those few lucky things that happened, the right opportunities, the right spouse, the wonderful children, the right friends  to help me out of a jam, to divine intervention on my behalf.

As a child I read the entire Bible cover to cover.  I made an earnest and honest attempt to study it - and tried to until my first year in High School .  But I never found it "entertaining" - or even particularly illuminating. Most of what it says ( or I understand it to say)  falls under the category "common sense" in my mind. As I learned Christ's teachings in Sunday School I kept thinking - well of course Christ taught that- what other way could this possibly work without violence and bloodshed? (I did not fully appreciate at the time that the humans around me tend to prefer violence and bloodshed naturally..)

Perhaps the point of throwing me the bad hands at cards is that he is trying to get me to play them as well as I can anyway - but I simply lack the interest in learning to do that. Winning or losing  at cards just doesn't matter that much at me (and I am normally super competitive at games)  Perhaps following Christ and reading the Bible  is the same way - I simply lack the interest in doing that - and that may end up sending me to hell.  But how could I lack interest in "winning at life" - or winning at the  afterlife - or whatever?  Because the rules, like the rules in cards, seem rather arbitrary to me.  We aren't talking about the rules - as far as morality and right or wrong, but the rules on "salvation"

Nearly every religion teaches that there is only one true, narrow  path to God, salvation, non-existence or whatever,  and of course that way is the one that religion preaches ( The  Mormons was the correct answer (http://southpark.cc.com/clips/152270/abandon-all-hope))  I find that clip from south park funny in that it highlights what I feel is the absurdity of that notion. What sort of a loving God would take that "quiz show" approach? You picked door number three?  Aw sorry, you don't get the new car, that was behind door number one.  I am afraid you are booked on an all expense paid trip to hell to be tortured for all eternity!

Seriously, is a God who  sets things up that way worthy of worship?
Or maybe God isn't all powerful and has some sort of deep magic, some universal law that even he must obey? ( even if its a constraint he places on himself?)
If a Blood sacrifice is required to forgive us of our sins to appease the deep magic,  but then why wait to send himself/his son to die for us, condemning so many to never hearing the word of Christ?
Why leave so many in the dark for so many centuries because of the primitive state of communication and travel?
Why not post his commandments using 50 foot unexplainable  flaming letter in the desert for all to read and see? Maybe add a booming voice for the blind?

Obviously he doesn't because FAITH is required. But WHY?
For what reason does God require faith and deny his children proof of his existence?
It is to protect our freewill? To force us to use our own judgement and not simply point to the letters  in the desert to affirm our beliefs?
Is it all some bet with Satan ( Book of Job style)  where he can't prove he exists to us because that would unfairly till us in God's direction?
Is a God who is willing to destroy men's lives and cause them suffering over a Bet ( book of Job style) a God worth worshiping?
Is a God who is willing to tell a man to sacrifice his first born son and then tell him "only fooling" worthy of worship?
Why are the terms of the first covenant  with Moses and his people so very different  than those that Jesus gave us and taught us?
Is it the same God in the old and new testaments?
 Were the different terms a result of the human race growing up- similar to how you treat and deal with a toddler much differently than how you deal with an older child who can be reasoned with?
All of these questions assume a rational God who does things for rational reasons ( as imperfectly as I may be able to understand them) - but that begs the question - Is an irrational and capricious God worth worshiping?

I had a Christian friend tell me I simply wasn't serious about walking with God or attain salvation. That I had no right to question God on his motives or to decide if he was worth worshiping. That Its not up to be to chose what God should be like.

But say you die and show up to heaven and find that God is just like Obama, Hillary, Valerie Jarret or Nancy Pelosi - is he still worthy of Worship?
If anyone can lay claim to your life, God certainly can, but what sort of choice is Obey or be tortured in hell?
That makes worshiping God a lot like Harry Reid's "voluntary tax system (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7mRSI8yWwg)"  doesn't it?
Is that something a loving father would do?
Does God really want people to worship him under coercion and duress?
IF God is a liberal in that way, is he worth worshiping?
I have heard many Christians deal with this by simply redefining Hell as a turning away From God. A Choice to not face him and join with him - but is that really what the Bible teaches? (are we talking Old Testament God or New Testament God...)

No, I can't know the mind of god. No I can't understand all of the reasons he may or may  not make certain choices and take certain courses of action.
But He gave us free will (and NO, I can't accept that we are at fault for that. Put a child in a room - a child bound to instinct and therefore  with no free will - and tell him not to eat the candy? If we can all see the outcome of that, couldn't God?) and with that Free will are we not supposed to use our judgement?

Perhaps the  entire point of returning to God is to give up our freewill and our judgement and thus return to the Eden we rejected buy willingly placing our trust in him.. .. God is our natural ruler, actually possessing the knowledge and power that the leftists arrogantly imagine they have,  but if giving up our freewill is the price, and something to be enforced by threats of torture if we choose wrongly, can you "trust" such an entity if he makes the same threats Harry Reid does? Are our souls just spiritual currency to God? A pocket of split change he wants back in his wallet?

As you can see, I have few answers. And Trust doesn't come easily to me. ( And yes I fully appreciate the parallels to the Dwarves in Narnia)
The God described in the Bible - the old Testament God in particular,  his actions - do not engender trust in me, and are at odds with what I believe to be my encounters with God over my lifetime. He has always been there when I needed him - like a loving father  would be. HE has touched me and comforted me, showed me his presence in the miracles around me, reassured me there is a plan to all I see,  and given me challenges to teach me, to prepare me for what is coming.  Isn't that what a father would do? Help each child to grow, to learn? To prepare them for what they face?

 Would a loving father set up a single path by which his children could come to him, and then make his children try to figure out  the correct one ( its was the Mormons) ? Would a loving father really leave that open to chance?  Would he leave some of his children in the dark and deny them ever even hearing about this path to him?  Would a loving father deny a child who had acted morally and loves his Father simply because that child  failed to put his Faith in one of those paths? If God isn't a loving father , is he still worthy of worship?

This is why when I pick up a Bible its of little use to me.  It tells the story of and describes a God that I am unsure of.  It doesn't bring me peace or hope. It fills me with dread that this is the God I will one day face, and a God that is willing to use his most devoted child, Job, as a plaything in a bet, could only be a liberal - with no concern for that man's life or suffering. Job was rewarded? No - he lost his wife and children. Getting a New wife and new Children is NOT an adequate substitute nor will it take away the scars and tears he suffered. It describes a God that would tell his child - its not enough you obey my rules, it is not enough you love me. You must also accept this (or that) story of blood sacrifice  - on faith - or I will deny you.
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Libertas on November 10, 2014, 07:08:41 AM
The way I look at it the OT was God trying to establish himself and his chosen people, and like rearing kids the kids tend to screw up, rebel, and need punishment...and there are wicked neighbors nearby who need an ass-kicking now and then.  It is what it is.

The NT is where a Christian should focus on, and I think you may be forgetting the concepts of contrition and forgiveness, nobody can obey God in all things...if they could they'd be a prophet and a saint...we are flawed, have been from the beginning, overcoming flaws is one thing, but lacking perfection we seek cleansing from the perfect, Christ.  I understand the angst though, the my way or the highway absolutism, and who hasn't been angry at God at least once in their life...but faith is a cement, it covers the cracks and fissures, it levels out and bridges the gap between flaw and perfection.  I dunno if that helps, take it for what it's worth.

Personally, I don't worry if God is liberal, I sincerely doubt it, not in the political philosophic sense of the word, there is simply too much there to loath (not the least being abortion), not that Pubbies are that much better.  And if he is a liberal, well, we'll see y'all in Hell I guess!
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Weisshaupt on November 10, 2014, 08:08:59 AM
I think you may be forgetting the concepts of contrition and forgiveness, nobody can obey God in all things...if they could they'd be a prophet and a saint...we are flawed, have been from the beginning, overcoming flaws is one thing, but lacking perfection we seek cleansing from the perfect, Christ.

If a machine is flawed, do you blame the machine or the engineer who designed it?
We are flawed only because he made us flawed - or allowed us to become so.
Maybe he had  to by the rules of the deep magic.
But yes I should say "obey his rules to the best of one's ability"
And so, okay we need to be cleansed - and this comes from - blood sacrifice. Abraham to sacrifice his  own son,  God to sacrifice  his.  Deep magic that compels it? Who sets up something like that?

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who hasn't been angry at God at least once in their life...but faith is a cement, it covers the cracks and fissures, it levels out and bridges the gap between flaw and perfection.

Actually I can't really remember a time I was angry.  Sometime in College I had an.. experience ( no not drug induced, I have never done drugs to my knowledge., nor do I think the punch was spiked on this one..) . It was like being scoped up, shown this terrific size painting or map, and seeing the order in it - in all things.  And I emerged from the other side with the only faith I have ever had - Faith there is a plan, someone loving is in charge of it, but I have no guarantee I will like the part I am to play. So I don't get angry with God, its all going to work out in the big picture.  Its my little picture I have to worry about.


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Personally, I don't worry if God is liberal, I sincerely doubt it, not in the political philosophic sense of the word, there is simply too much there to loath (not the least being abortion), not that Pubbies are that much better.  And if he is a liberal, well, we'll see y'all in Hell I guess!

Yeah, see that is my attitude as well.  My Christian friend was quite upset by the notion that I would reject God in any form, but there are some forms I feel I would be duty bound to reject him. Then I was told I was hopeless and that I would never find my way because I was expecting God to do Tricks for me and conform to my expectations. Perhaps, I am hopeless. Like that deck of cards providing me no joy when it works for so many other people,  the Bible just doesn't seem to contain my path. I just have to hope there is some other way than blood sacrifice to get there.


 
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: IronDioPriest on November 10, 2014, 09:08:21 AM
The bible says that tiny faith (the size of a mustard seed - the smallest of seeds) is all that is required for faith to grow. I don't believe one seeks God without at least a mustard seed of faith. In my opinion, asking hard questions about God and faith - and wrestling with all the possible answers - is the definition of seeking God.

Christian faith is not unreasonable. In other words, it can be arrived at through reason. Intellectually honest questions are an intrinsic part of any reasoning process. Avoiding the asking of those questions doesn't serve the truth. Wrestling with the answers does. So it seems to me that you're on a good path, my friend.

Profound questions and faith can coexist in your mind. There is nothing in the bible that requires us to stop asking hard questions once we make a decision to believe. I think some people avoid making a decision for Christ because they think that somehow they aren't being genuine if they hold faith and deep questions simultaneously.

I have deep questions, and I love Christ Jesus.

If You wanted me by Todd Agnew (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQKw8e804ZE#ws)

Our Great God ~ Todd Agnew ft. Rebecca St James (with lyrics) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MNtAQ4pZuE#)
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Pandora on November 10, 2014, 01:12:55 PM
Weisshaupt, not that it matters, but I've never been able to get anything worthwhile from the Bible either.

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... He has always been there when I needed him - like a loving father  would be. HE has touched me and comforted me, showed me his presence in the miracles around me, reassured me there is a plan to all I see,  and given me challenges to teach me, to prepare me for what is coming.

... Sometime in College I had an.. experience ( no not drug induced, I have never done drugs to my knowledge., nor do I think the punch was spiked on this one..) . It was like being scoped up, shown this terrific size painting or map, and seeing the order in it - in all things.  And I emerged from the other side with the only faith I have ever had - Faith there is a plan, someone loving is in charge of it, but I have no guarantee I will like the part I am to play. So I don't get angry with God, its all going to work out in the big picture.

These are similar to my experiences as well.  Although I have gotten very angry at God, in a way, that is comforting to me in that it reaffirms my faith that He IS there, because I have had periods of doubt when I asked myself the same hard questions that you do.

In the end and as for the rest, who says what, and the Bible itself, none of that matters to me.  I know what I know in my heart, and that God put it there, and that's all I need to know.

I'm never going to be a good proselytizer because I don't have the gift.  But there is alternative; to live my life as an example and let others take from that what they will or can.  You're already doing that, too.

Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: IronDioPriest on November 10, 2014, 02:08:21 PM
Even Mother Teresa had doubts that surfaced during darker times in her long life. I'd say that on the spectrum of faith in God/Christianity, she was at the tippy-top end of it.

Knowing what we know about how she lived her life, if she could have lingering doubts and moments that tried her faith, how much more will those doubts and trials challenge us?

For that matter, Jesus Christ had His moment of feeling forsaken by God. I'm sure He snapped-to quicker than anyone, but He shows us that times of doubt in God's plan is an intrinsic part of faith.
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: AlanS on November 10, 2014, 02:43:34 PM
Although I have gotten very angry at God, in a way, that is comforting to me in that it reaffirms my faith that He IS there, because I have had periods of doubt when I asked myself the same hard questions that you do.


I don't think a person alive hasn't been angry with Him at one time or another. With my children and especially the way the world is going down the tubes.

The most I ever ask of Him is the strength to deal with it every day.
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Weisshaupt on November 10, 2014, 08:01:31 PM
This is the Neanderthal Guy from the r/K thread.
And I found this discussion interesting.
I clicked upon it largely because it seemed it may be relevant to this thread due to the Mustard Seed reference, and  it surely is
I am still chewing on it myself, but I would be interested in hearing other comments.

Faith of a Mustard Seed - Koan update (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whlyOgIotvU#)
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: ChrstnHsbndFthr on November 11, 2014, 02:20:27 AM
There are a great deal of questions there, more than even a verbose fellow such as myself can answer, but let me hit some highlights, if you will.

True, I once thought faith was a decision, but I no longer believe it so. One either is given faith, by grace, or one is not.  Though I have often expressed it as a choice to believe, it is actually a decision whether to translate our belief into action. I can no more decide to believe I can fly than I can actually fly.  But, it is entirely possible to believe one can run and still refuse to do so, as I am living proof of that myself.  Therefore one could believe that there is a God, that He is the one we are told of in the bible, that the teachings make moral sense, and still refuse to implement them in one's own life.  This is what James called a dead faith, for faith without works is dead.

Now the explanation of Savior and why that is necessary is more complex still. God is unchanging and unalterably good. He makes clear and reveals His nature to us through His Word and He is glorified by mankind, as He shows His mercy and goodness to us.  God cannot accept sin without penalty, because that would make sin acceptable, and would thereby alter the nature of God.  But, in His grace and mercy, He pays the penalty for us. Sin still has a consequence. It is not free. It is not acceptable. But, WE do not pay the price, because we cannot. Without God arranging the Savior, a perfect and sinless sacrifice, there could be no salvation.  God maintains His nature, which is love and goodness, and His children have the free gift of salvation, just as a child cannot pay the price for the broken window, the Father must pay, but the children must be aware of the cost and must learn from it. They must learn not to cost the Father and Christians attempt not to cost the Savior. 

(There is a big discussion of God living outside of time, which is a created thing, and the crucifixion being a constant thing, but that gets pretty distended.

The issue of one Way, is a scriptural concept.  He teaches us to seek and we will find.  I view that as a promise. He does not teach us to follow denominations, which is a modern was of saying divisions, in fact He teaches against that.  Follow Christ. Simple enough in my book. Will I make errors in my reading and understanding? Certainly. But, ours is a great and merciful God. I look to the example of Abraham, who had faith in God and was accounted as righteous, even though he was wrong in his thinking about how God would give him back his son, whom he had been commanded to sacrifice. (He though God would raise him from the dead, but instead God stayed his hand.)  The technical error was not important to the nature of God. It was the faith in God that was credited to Abraham as righteousness.

Coercion?  I do not think so.  One either has faith or one does not. If one believes God, the threat really does not come into it. He is due worship as the Creator, as the Savior, as Father, Teacher, etc.  Some sects of the Jews did not believe man was an eternal being, but STILL worshiped God and tried to keep His commandments.  That is a natural consequence of faith. Remember that as a child, one may obey their father out of fear, but after learning and in due course, the taught son obeys because it is the right thing to do and understanding that it is in the son's best interest to obey the father who loves him and only wants what is best for him. How much more so to obey God because we know He loves us and wants what is best for us? Likewise, if one does not believe God, the threat does not come into it because when one does not believe that God is, then one does not fear punishment. 

As to the common sense of it, in a sense your point is true, we should all see the wisdom of it and live by it, though most will not. But, no other religion teaches this. Our nature does not teach us these principles to live by, how to get along, how to treat one another, etc.  Personally, I believe with nothing other than a bible to learn from, our entire society could be restarted from scratch and function reasonably well, if people would study and apply those principles.

Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Pablo de Fleurs on November 11, 2014, 06:53:32 AM
This won’t put your questions to rest…merely point in a direction (towards God). One must fervently pursue a relationship with Him in order for any of this to make sense…but that’s your job (for you) and my job (for me).

A. God doesn’t need us in order to have a relationship; He already has a relationship with Christ & Holy Spirit.
B. God created us and desires (but does not force) a relationship with us. He may call us or draw us to Him – but the choice is ours.
C. He wants a relationship, not a set of rules to follow…however rules & requirements are necessary for ANY relationship to function.
D. God has given us ample “evidence” of His creation (Romans 1:20). Those rejecting it do so at their own peril & I don’t care much if, after presenting the evidence, they reject it. Those wishing to argue for the sake of arguing can, literally, go to Hell.
E. God’s ways are not our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). So don’t think of it as “Liberal” or “Conservative” – God doesn’t use man’s labels to define Himself (though you can guess which “side” He leans toward from His Word).

You have children. You’d like to be in relationship with them. And you are. You’d prefer not to have them be promiscuous or use illegal drugs…but they might…so you establish rules (which they may or may not follow). Flipping a switch & making them automatons brings no one the satisfaction of a relationship…you want them to desire the relationship. What would be the point if they followed you blindly, like zombies?

The opportunity to better ourselves and follow God’s ways is ours…not His. His standards are extremely high & following Him (sort of like desiring to become the CEO of a huge corporation) will require sacrifice & tough choices. But the game is eternal & the benefits everlasting…so the “sacrifice” is worth it.  We’re preparing for eternity…not simply a month’s vacation. And preparing for eternity takes…a long time.

We, as a result of free will which then feeds the ego to a point of thinking that WE are the “gods”, screwed it up so badly that God provided a solution to the problem (Christ’s death upon the Cross – a final blood sacrifice to end all sacrifices). But it’s a gift, which must be intentionally & purposefully chosen…OR the transaction of the gift-giver isn’t complete. We must choose to follow Christ & accept the gift.

We know that technology doesn’t create itself – WE create it. In exactly the same way, someone who thinks we are not created, but have evolved…is effing stupid & not using their reason. We are too intricate & the universe too precisely tuned, to have ANY chance of freak, happenstance occurrence (ten to the 400th power or something).

We can ascertain God’s stance on issues (abortion, homosexuality, tyranny) from His Word and the conditions of life itself (freedom vs. bondage). Jesus physically fed the 5,000…but not every day or as part of an ongoing program.

If you were to buy a boat, one of the criteria would be its seaworthiness. If it don’t float, it ain’t worth the investment. You wouldn’t simply suggest that it be free of holes…you’d demand it! Actually, you’d assume it or…why are they in the boat business? So too does God require our striving for perfection. Not perfection itself…simply the striving toward it. We, unlike the boat, will have holes…but God’s plan covers that (that’s called grace).

Have the terms changed over the years? Absolutely. But we’re now on the “Jesus Plan”. Accept or reject it at your own peril. Mock now (feeding self), pay later. Pay now (dying to self) & enjoy later. Pretty simple (though not easy)- it’s we who complicate it. Praise God for the patience to deal with it all. Lord know I don’t have that level of patience…but my ways aren’t His. No irrationality. No capriciousness – but a plan for those of us that are irrational & capricious.

Short answers to lengthy questions. Sorry. But studying Scripture, not merely reading it, is the key. What you physically "see" ain't all there is...by a long shot. That's where faith enters (added to the rationality of why we believe in the first place). All religions may claim to be the path - but only one can be correct. If many paths start up a mountain, which one ends successfully? You have to decide, based upon the evidence. God has told us...and, being that it's HE who sits atop the mountain, He has the best view of the paths & where they lead. Only one does - and it's revealed within a book that has withstood the scrutiny of scholars & time & that is better corroborated than any other ancient writings. The more I read God's Word, the better i find that it agrees with God's world.

Good luck!
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Libertas on November 11, 2014, 07:17:04 AM
Oh, and as far as the Bible goes Weisshaupt, not sure if the version used is an issue or not, I know I've read the Old and New Testaments completely though like 9 times...I used to favor the original KJV as the other "new" versions were too modern in vernacular and the ones that omit He and all that can be burned for apostasy...anyway, before launching my 10th run through I sought a new version.  I went back, way back...and found a Geneva Bible, the first one translated entirely and directly from Hebrew texts into English.  I figure the closer to root the more accurate the version.  Anyway, don't give up on reading it, and don't dwell too much on the Old Testament (though I do like Psalms, that book is brilliant and the prose is elegant and profound), the New is where our core lessons are, and you don't have to obsess over every meaning to the point of madness, sometimes just the act of reading without thinking (it's hard, my silly CPU runs constantly, even at night and wakes me up!) and let it soak in over time.  Don't read it like an auto manual.  Just read and know that you'll not glom onto everything right away or even ever.  I am not big on organized religion, I am much more private than that and have issues with their bureaucracy and such, and while I have faith I am far from perfect and not averse to doubts and confusion.  I do what I can how I can and try not to dwell on vexations.
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: IronDioPriest on November 11, 2014, 08:39:04 AM
...studying Scripture, not merely reading it, is the key. What you physically "see" ain't all there is...by a long shot. That's where faith enters (added to the rationality of why we believe in the first place)...

This is an important point re; trying to glean meaning from the bible using only our worldly understanding as our guide and only our intellect as our discernment. Reading is not enough. Studying is not enough. But reading and studying with faith will open doors of understanding.

The New Testament comes right out and says in several ways that to those who do not believe, the Word of God makes no sense. I found this to be true for myself, since reading the bible made no sense to me until I willingly entered into relationship with Christ. Suddenly - and I do mean suddenly - it was as if I was granted some supernatural understanding of the words that had seemed like gibberish. Ideas began to tie together, and entire passages that had seemed like lofty ideas with no practical application to my life suddenly meant everything.

Here is a LINK (http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/2-14.htm) to several of those scriptures that essentially say that wisdom or discernment of the Word come from the spirit of God, and absent His spirit, there can be no understanding of it.

I realize this is touchy, and I do not mean to offend anyone. It is as if the bible says you don't understand the bible because you don't have enough faith to fully understand. But I wouldn't put it that harshly. I would say to those who seek God but find the bible difficult to swallow, that your faith hasn't yet taken the leap necessary to turn the key. They call it a leap of faith for a reason.

If you can bring yourself to just believe that Jesus is the Christ; that He died and rose again so that we could see a pathway to relationship with God, and through that relationship, be compelled to repent for our sins and sinful nature; and ask Him for the forgiveness freely given - if we can do just that much, and then say a prayer for understanding and discernment each time we sit down to read the Word of God - supernatural understanding of the Word will be granted.

That seems backwards to the intellect, doesn't it? Our mind tells us we should be able to read the bible, and based on whether it all makes sense to us, use it to discern the truth of whether Jesus is the Christ, and then make our decision for or against Him based on our worldly understanding of the Word. That approach can only get us part of the way there. We have to take that final leap of faith, and the understanding of the Word will unfold before our eyes.

A good teacher doesn't hurt either. If you don't like church, I'd suggest finding a group of seekers and study the bible led by a good teacher.
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Weisshaupt on November 11, 2014, 09:08:31 AM
God cannot accept sin without penalty, because that would make sin acceptable, and would thereby alter the nature of God. But, in His grace and mercy, He pays the penalty for us. Sin still has a consequence. It is not free. It is not acceptable. But, WE do not pay the price, because we cannot.

The point of a penalty or punishment is that it deters the behavior and teaches the individual to avoid the pain. That God, as a good father must from time to time punish his children to correct them makes sense.   So your son disobeys you, causes property damage and then lies to you about it. Your daughter then steps in front of him and says "I love him!  punish me instead." -
Do you go ahead and punish your daughter as if she had done the things your son did?

 If you did , would your son learn to not do what he did? Maybe.  Perhaps he so loves his sister that he does avoid it in the future. Or perhaps he learns that consequences fall on others and he is free to continue as he has done. 

But now what does he think of you - that you are willing to punish his sister for what he did? 

Wouldn't you rather your son would then do the honorable thing, confess his wrong doing and demand you punish him and leave his sister out of it?

Will me avoiding sin, in any way, diminish or protect Christ from his throughout time and space suffering in the Crucifixion?

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"that though the Witch knew the Deep Magic, there is a magic deeper still which she did not know. Her knowledge goes back only to the dawn of Time. But if she could have looked a little further back, into the stillness and the darkness before Time dawned, she would have read there a different incantation. She would have known that when a willing victim who had committed no treachery was killed in a traitor's stead, the Table would crack and Death itself would start working backwards."

That there should and must be a penalty for Sin or it would change the nature of God ( and probably make him unworthy of worship)  is something I can wholeheartedly accept.

But the penalty God sets is Blood Sacrifice? 
And someone else can pay it?
Sin is some sort of debt, and human suffering ( by anyone) is the  currency in which it is repaid?
I create a creature with a sinful nature, then claim because of that nature he owes a debt paid in his own suffering, but  he can let  someone else to suffer for him to pay the debt.  Again I ask, who sets up something like that?

Is God the Author of this deep Magic?
If sin is so offensive to God why did he create creatures with a Sinful nature?  He put small  children in a room with candy  and told them not to eat it.   It would seem he was TRYING to create sinful creatures but was forbidden by the deep magic to do it directly.

 
God maintains His nature, which is love and goodness, and His children have the free gift of salvation, just as a child cannot pay the price for the broken window, the Father must pay, but the children must be aware of the cost and must learn from it. They must learn not to cost the Father and Christians attempt not to cost the Savior. 

Your childhood was quite different from mine apparently.  I did work for the neighbor every day till I had paid for the window. (as it should be)
A child too young to provide any compensation (as even a token)  is unlikely to be able to comprehend a concept such as "cost"


Coercion?  I do not think so.

Hellfire and Brimstone for not accepting Jesus Christ is not a threat? That is Coercion. I think that is why many scholars want to think of hell as simply turning away from God and not an active punishment. But I am not convinced scripture supports that interpretation.

One either has faith or one does not. If one believes God, the threat really does not come into it. He is due worship as the Creator, as the Savior, as Father, Teacher, etc.

Then why care about Obamacare - weren't you going to buy insurance anyway? So the threats of punishment and fines are irrelevant.
The threat is still relevant even if they are trying to force you to do something you were going to do anyway. Your point about threatening a small child to behave until he learns you have his best interests at heart is well taken,  but this is a standing threat even to the older child who is trying to obey (and failing because of his nature)

 
B. God created us and desires (but does not force) a relationship with us. He may call us or draw us to Him – but the choice is ours.


And if we make the wrong "choice", we spend eternity tortured in hellfire. Don't worry - your taxes are voluntary, there are just consequences if you choose not to pay them. A choice offered with a threat is not a "choice"

 
E. God’s ways are not our ways (Isaiah 55:8-9). So don’t think of it as “Liberal” or “Conservative” – God doesn’t use man’s labels to define Himself (though you can guess which “side” He leans toward from His Word).

He may not, but I am human and those labels are all I have.  He is God. I am not. Yet I have freewill, and I have a keen interest in the nature of  God if I am to commit to worshiping him.  A large part of my problem is the God of the Old Testament, whose nature as indicated by his actions, is capricious and often simply mean. I understand new covenant, new rules - but if its the same God its hard to forget the history.  ( I tend to prefer the Gnostic explanation)

We, as a result of free will which then feeds the ego to a point of thinking that WE are the “gods”, screwed it up so badly that God provided a solution to the problem (Christ’s death upon the Cross – a final blood sacrifice to end all sacrifices). But it’s a gift, which must be intentionally & purposefully chosen…OR the transaction of the gift-giver isn’t complete. We must choose to follow Christ & accept the gift.

This is the scenario where the hypothetical son above allows the sister to take the punishment as a gift. If the deep magic is the coin I must pay in, shouldn't I be demanding that the suffering fall on me ( as much as I can take of it) instead of letting Christ do it all for me?  In the "broken window" suggested by CHF shouldn't a child make amends to the amount he is able, even if the father pays the rest?


Have the terms changed over the years? Absolutely. But we’re now on the “Jesus Plan”. Accept or reject it at your own peril.

And you don't think that is a threat? If I come to your house and tell you to obey me, or your life will be in peril, would you not take it as a threat?

 
But studying Scripture, not merely reading it, is the key. What you physically "see" ain't all there is...by a long shot.

So when you are trying to explain right and wrong to your kids, do you explain it in code and complex analogy  that has to be studied? He is the creator of the universe, but lacks good communication skills? (why did Christ not write his OWN book and testament? Why did the apostles have to do it for him?)  Being clear and consistent with children is really important.  Again, this is part of the "Game Show Host" God - "here is a puzzle, see if you can figure it out and you win the prize under this box!"

 
. All religions may claim to be the path - but only one can be correct. If many paths start up a mountain, which one ends successfully?

"The correct answer was the Mormons" - Again, its the "Game Show Host" God. Pick the right path, open the right door, guess the right price. Solve my riddle.
Why would a loving God make it difficult to discern  the easiest path to him? Why would he create only ONE path?

 ALL PATHS  arrive at the top of the mountain if you keep going up. Some may require slow and tedious bush-wacking through miles of thorns, others may require danger ridden scaling  of cliff faces, and some may arrive at an impossible obstacle, a river that can't be crossed, quicksand, lava, man-eating dragons - which require you to track the contour or backtrack until another path upward (maybe even the "correct one" ) presents itself. Some paths may be longer and harder, but all of them reach the top if you keep going up.  The difference between them is the difficulty.  I have climbed too many mountains from "the wrong side" just to be alone and avoid meeting people on the "correct (and easier) path"  to think otherwise.

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Fall05-LongsPeakCU_JPG_RSZ_md.jpg/250px-Fall05-LongsPeakCU_JPG_RSZ_md.jpg)


Every Weekend, all summer long, people Climb Longs Peak in Rocky Mountain National Forest.  Some take the 16 Mile long trail ( usually in a line) Some climb straight up the "Diamond" cliff face. Some climb Mt. Meeker and then traverse this really nasty narrow trail through the ravine between them.  At the top, does anyone say - you didn't come MY way so you didn't really climb this mountain ( okay, yeah, some of the people who came up the cliff DO say that)

Will God really reject me if I arrive at the mountain top after conquering the thorn bushes, killing the dragons, swimming the river, and scaling the cliff?
Sorry son, you didn't come up the "one true path" where your suffering was borne by my son - you will now be punished for all eternity.
Why would a loving Father provide only one path for all to follow? - when all of his children are different?  As I father I know what works for my daughter does not work for my son. How could that be any less so when you have billions of children? There may be better paths and worse paths.  But not "one true" path, and if that is the case, I am not sure this narrow minded  God is worth worshiping.


Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: ChrstnHsbndFthr on November 11, 2014, 09:21:37 AM
Your analogy of the mountain is good.  There is one mountain top. Certainly, if we all agree the goal is the mountain top, then the route is not so important.  Christ IS the goal. It does not matter where I start from, I will travel toward that goal. Does that make my path different than yours? Assuredly. But, the GOAL remains the same. We come to God through the Son and only through the Son.  "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light, no man cometh to the Father but by me."

One may start out in any of several denominations, but in the end, the goal has to be the same. Christ.
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Weisshaupt on November 11, 2014, 09:24:26 AM

The New Testament comes right out and says in several ways that to those who do not believe, the Word of God makes no sense. I found this to be true for myself, since reading the bible made no sense to me until I willingly entered into relationship with Christ. Suddenly - and I do mean suddenly - it was as if I was granted some supernatural understanding of the words that had seemed like gibberish. Ideas began to tie together, and entire passages that had seemed like lofty ideas with no practical application to my life suddenly meant everything.

So now the Father of all things turns out be really really bad at advertizing as well?
Again, is he compelled to be this bad at communicating by the deep magic, or some bet with Satan?


I realize this is touchy, and I do not mean to offend anyone. It is as if the bible says you don't understand the bible because you don't have enough faith to fully understand. But I wouldn't put it that harshly. I would say to those who seek God but find the bible difficult to swallow, that your faith hasn't yet taken the leap necessary to turn the key. They call it a leap of faith for a reason.

And that faith is actually granted you by God, correct? Like a light switch?  So what if he wants some of his children to come by a different path - because they are recalcitrant A-holes like myself. Because we have remedial lessons we must also learn.  Does he open the door to the easier path for us,  or does he, like any good parent, bring us by the longer road - which may or may not, eventually meet this one?
 
If you can bring yourself to just believe that Jesus is the Christ; that He died and rose again so that we could see a pathway to relationship with God, and through that relationship, be compelled to repent for our sins and sinful nature; and ask Him for the forgiveness freely given - if we can do just that much, and then say a prayer for understanding and discernment each time we sit down to read the Word of God - supernatural understanding of the Word will be granted.

Yeah, I can't do that until someone explains to me why the deep magic is the way it is and who set it up that way. Because engaging in blood sacrifice of a willing victim  doesn't sit well with me. I accept god exists, he is good and is in charge. I have seen too much of him in my life to believe otherwise.  I am stuck at accepting that Blood sacrifice is the only way I may be forgiven for the sins I commit as part of the imperfect nature GOD created me with.
 
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Weisshaupt on November 11, 2014, 09:30:02 AM
Your analogy of the mountain is good.  There is one mountain top. Certainly, if we all agree the goal is the mountain top, then the route is not so important.  Christ IS the goal. It does not matter where I start from, I will travel toward that goal. Does that make my path different than yours? Assuredly. But, the GOAL remains the same. We come to God through the Son and only through the Son.  "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Light, no man cometh to the Father but by me."

One may start out in any of several denominations, but in the end, the goal has to be the same. Christ.

Is Christ on the mountaintop? Or God? Or Both? Is there even going to be a functional difference that we can perceive between those concepts if and when I arrive at the summit?  I don't see how one could know till one arrives, just as I won't be able to see the view on the other side of the mountain till I get there.
I understand that the Bible says that Christ is the ONE WAY..  I also understand that is just what any man trying to grow a religion would say.  Perhaps its true, but I am skeptical.  Which is why I need a far better of the Deep Magic and why that was the one and only way by which I could make penance for my sins - is by letting my innocent,  bigger, stronger, older, wiser, perfect brother  take my licks for me.
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: ChrstnHsbndFthr on November 11, 2014, 09:31:43 AM
God did not create us with a sinful nature. That was created by Adam's choice.

Romans 5 12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 for [h]until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15 But [j]the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression [k]resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions [l]resulting in justification. 17 For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: ChrstnHsbndFthr on November 11, 2014, 09:37:45 AM
In your analogy Christ is the mountain top. The concept of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is hard to express. They are one.  There is only one God. But, the full expression of God appears as three.
The Father personifies the purity and goodness and authority of our Creator.
The physical aspect is referred to as the Son. (God with us in bodily form, suffering all the trials and temptations of life just as we do.
And the Holy Spirit personifies the work of bringing faith, protection, and comfort.

(Obviously this is incomplete shorthand at best.)
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Weisshaupt on November 11, 2014, 10:04:24 AM
God did not create us with a sinful nature. That was created by Adam's choice.

Yeah, and the 3 year old kid left alone in the room with the candy he was told not to eat it  made a choice too. Any Adult knows what is going to happen there.
Adam had no knowledge of good and evil till he ate of the apple, so did he make an informed choice?  He believed a lie told to him by Eve. 
Did he know fully know and understand what he was doing?
And while we are not supposed to visit the sins of the father upon the son, I am responsible for the sins of my great^Nth power grandfather?
I don't deny the sinful nature of man, I see it every day.  But if the story is to be taken in a literal sense  God  knew it would happen and allowed it to happen. A parent is responsible for the well being of a child - especially one with no understanding or knowledge of good and evil.

 


Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Pablo de Fleurs on November 11, 2014, 11:51:11 AM
Whether you process the Heaven/Hell invitation as a threat is a choice, Weisshaupt.

I explain it this way:

Is there someone in your life (wife, best friend, etc.) who’s company you enjoy & in who’s presence you have a good time…whether that be chatting, spending quality time together, etc.?
Think of Heaven/eternal life as a place where those who feel that way about God or Jesus Christ get to spend eternity.

OTOH, have you ever known a person whom you do not care for - to the point of not wanting to be in the same room with them…OR…not attending an event (small venue, not a football stadium) if they’re going to be there? You’ve not taken the time to get to know them & as a result, want nothing to do with them & who you think you know they are. Think of Hell as a place where you don’t have to spend time with the creator who’s ways, thoughts, methods you find so distasteful.

Ultimately I don’t convince anyone…they must come to Christ on their own. One choice would, even pragmatically, be perceived as better than the other. The alternative really appears to suck. Weigh the costs (cost here on earth vs. eternal consequences) and choose. God’s moral standards are what they are. They are the basis/origin for our objective moral code here on earth. And we must conform to them. Have you ever told your children: “Because I’m the daddy…THAT’s why!”? That’s, in effect, what God is saying to us. Like it or not, it’s His game. He has, however, made relationship with Him rather pleasant…IF you choose to process it that way.

If not, well…..
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Weisshaupt on November 11, 2014, 12:11:39 PM

OTOH, have you ever known a person whom you do not care for - to the point of not wanting to be in the same room with them…OR…not attending an event (small venue, not a football stadium) if they’re going to be there? You’ve not taken the time to get to know them & as a result, want nothing to do with them & who you think you know they are. Think of Hell as a place where you don’t have to spend time with the creator who’s ways, thoughts, methods you find so distasteful.

Only you know, you get to be tortured in addition to just not being with the creator.  The threat is of experiencing brutal  pain  for the rest of eternity if you don't choose to go to the stadium.
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Pablo de Fleurs on November 11, 2014, 01:54:09 PM

OTOH, have you ever known a person whom you do not care for - to the point of not wanting to be in the same room with them…OR…not attending an event (small venue, not a football stadium) if they’re going to be there? You’ve not taken the time to get to know them & as a result, want nothing to do with them & who you think you know they are. Think of Hell as a place where you don’t have to spend time with the creator who’s ways, thoughts, methods you find so distasteful.

Only you know, you get to be tortured in addition to just not being with the creator.  The threat is of experiencing brutal  pain  for the rest of eternity if you don't choose to go to the stadium.

Yeah...but at least you know ahead of time...& can plan/choose accordingly. That's a plus.

Quote
To dwell above, with those we love
Ah, that will be the glory!

To dwell below, with those we know…

…well…that’s a different story.
 ;)
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Weisshaupt on November 11, 2014, 02:08:59 PM

Yeah...but at least you know ahead of time...& can plan/choose accordingly. That's a plus.

I know ahead of time what the IRS will do if I disobey them as well.
Honest people don't need to make threats. The Persuasion of truth and beauty should be enough.
So why is God making threats like the common thugs at the IRS?

My conclusion is that he doesn't.. but men attempting to grow their churches did.


Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: ChrstnHsbndFthr on November 11, 2014, 11:14:16 PM
I do not think of this situation as God forcing a situation. The situation merely exists. We know that God is. And because He is, the choice exists as a natural consequence. He does not force our service, but there are natural consequences to avoiding His service, just as the sun comes up in the morning following night.
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Weisshaupt on November 12, 2014, 12:07:12 AM
I do not think of this situation as God forcing a situation. The situation merely exists. We know that God is. And because He is, the choice exists as a natural consequence. He does not force our service, but there are natural consequences to avoiding His service, just as the sun comes up in the morning following night.

But the Sun comes up each morning because God set it up that way, just as he set up eternal damnation for those who choose wrong. God is the author of nature. Things Just are, because he willed them (or allowed them) to become so.  The situation must suit him, or it wouldn't exist. What would "god forcing a situation" look like? The situation would simply alter to become as natural and as normal  as the sun rising each morning. It would just Be.

Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Libertas on November 12, 2014, 06:09:31 AM

Yeah...but at least you know ahead of time...& can plan/choose accordingly. That's a plus.

I know ahead of time what the IRS will do if I disobey them as well.
Honest people don't need to make threats. The Persuasion of truth and beauty should be enough.
So why is God making threats like the common thugs at the IRS?

My conclusion is that he doesn't.. but men attempting to grow their churches did.

I think this is closer to the mark than many might admit...I think there is a generally agreed opinion that there is right and wrong and rewards and punishments, but it tends to hold up to intellectual scruitny as well has the history of mankind to see where men could embellish something as a means of influence and control...but to what extent I am not certain.

Certainly man is not immune to mischief...like the song says...we can be "on the wrong side of Heaven, and the righteous side of Hell".
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Weisshaupt on November 12, 2014, 10:17:03 AM
[it tends to hold up to intellectual scruitny as well has the history of mankind to see where men could embellish something as a means of influence and control...but to what extent I am not certain.

Nor is anyone.  I just suspect the Bible as currently complied is not 100% the word of God because of mankind's "embellishment"  -  otherwise God is threatening eternal active torture punishment for a decision made in time/space with imperfect knowledge, and that doesn't make sense to me.. If we have free will and God wants us to have free will, a threat of eternal torture takes that free will away - just as the threat of the IRS using  fines, property confiscation, jail-time ( and death if you resist)  means taxes aren't Voluntary.  A Voluntary decisions can only be made when the party making the decision isn't being threatened with punishment.  If this is God's definition of "Free will"  than he is a Harry Reid type Democrat and is probably not worthy of worship.



Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: ChrstnHsbndFthr on November 12, 2014, 12:10:43 PM
There is actually very little in the bible about our idea of Hell, like seen in cartoons and such. Often the words translated as Hell are better translated death or the grave.   Some of it is certainly metaphorical, designed to give a picture of a permanent punishment, which I do picture as an exile from the presence of God. That would be a painful situation since in Him we live and move and have our being.

There is far more focus on the good, on the salvation, on the hope, but, it is true one must know the penalty to understand the greatness of the forgiveness.
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Weisshaupt on November 12, 2014, 05:37:43 PM
There is actually very little in the bible about our idea of Hell, like seen in cartoons and such.
There is far more focus on the good, on the salvation, on the hope, but, it is true one must know the penalty to understand the greatness of the forgiveness.

More than a few.
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Hell/ (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Hell/)

How does one know when its metaphorical vs. literal?
And just because the focus isn't on the punishment, does that mean there isn't a punishment?
How many times does Vinnie really need to threaten to break your legs.
If this is the free will God offers, then it isn't free will at all.
 
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: ChrstnHsbndFthr on November 13, 2014, 03:44:45 AM
Out of those verses, most talk about the grave, sheol, death, or destruction, or judgment, but not the traditional view of hell. At most, 17 verses from the entire bible (31,000+) can be construed that way. Clearly the emphasis in the bible is on salvation and hope. Not threat of punishment.

it IS free will. There ARE consequences to bad choices. Life demonstrates that. I taught my children not to burn themselves on the stove. I never felt I threatened them with the stove. I was never going to hold their hand to the burner, nor pour a pot of boiling liquid upon them, but I did teach them that it was a possible consequence, and a real danger, to foolishness on their behalf. 

Likewise, removing yourself from the presence of God is a consequence of your own choosing. There is a way for your to choose for that not to happen. And it is simple enough.  The threat of punishment is yours to choose or not. if you pull the boiling pot of water down upon yourself, can you rightly claim that I punished you or that I threatened you because I warned you? How much more so a righteous God who warns about the ways and choices of men?
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Weisshaupt on November 13, 2014, 08:59:12 AM
Clearly the emphasis in the bible is on salvation and hope. Not threat of punishment.

I don't deny the emphasis is elsewhere. I assert the emphasis is irrelevant. Vinnie only needs to threaten to break your legs once - maybe twice.  Then he Breaks your Legs, otherwise his threats loose credibility with the next guy.

it IS free will. There ARE consequences to bad choices. Life demonstrates that. I taught my children not to burn themselves on the stove. I never felt I threatened them with the stove. I was never going to hold their hand to the burner, nor pour a pot of boiling liquid upon them, but I did teach them that it was a possible consequence, and a real danger, to foolishness on their behalf. 

A Stove has no agency.  The only agency at work is my own in choosing to touch it. The effects are immediate, and no one decides (using agency) I must be punished for touching it and no one can grant me forgiveness for touching it  and thereby prevent me from being burned.

I suppose one could argue that God is all powerful and can make the stove not hot, but then if he fails to act then is he not then partially responsible for the burn? (with great power comes great responsibility)  If You saw your child reaching for the burner and failed to stay their hand or protect them, would your bear any of the fault for the burn they received? God is ultimately responsible for everything and we have no free will at all if he doesn't play by the rules of Nature ( which  he designed and set up). Free Will is a space that God must carve out of his realm for us if we are to have it- where he binds himself and his ability to interfere by Deep Magic or other covenants.

God isn't warning me not to touch the stove. He is not warning me of a natural consequence.  He is threatening punishment if I don't obey his laws and make the choices He approves of.  HE says that if I do not keep his laws ( which I can by my nature do only imperfectly)  and beg forgiveness from Christ, HE  WILL cast me into the fire - he will actively hold my hand ( and my head, and my feet, and my soul) to the burner - for all eternity.
 
The  bible clearly states God will use his power and his agency to actively  punish me for breaking his law,  just as the IRS will use its thugs and goons to punish me for not paying taxes. Do you think paying Taxes is Voluntary? Most would say a voluntary act must be done in  the absence of threat and coercion. It is not free will if God's rights don't end where mine begin. (God must not actively interfere if we are to have free will)  If I don't consent to his rule, there should be no consequences other than God leaving me alone ( which is how most Conservative Christians see Hell and reconcile this with their own beliefs about free will)

But that is emphatically NOT what the bible says. 

Quote
Matthew 13

47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Quote
Luke 12
"I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. 5"But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

The Angels will sort (using agency) and cast (using agency)  the wicked into the blazing furnace - to face torture and pain for all eternity after a SECOND Death.  (http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer%27s%20Corner/Doctrines/second_death.htm) (so no, the fact that most verses about hell contain a reference to this death is not a negation of the brimstone version of hell)

Luke tells me to fear God and his agency.  He isn't telling me to not touch the stove.  He is telling me to fear God because God is going to actively enforce his laws, actively pass judgement, and actively administer punishment to those he does not  actively forgive of their transgressions.  If this were a stove, God could not forgive me of my actions because no one is actively  punishing me for them -- no agency is making sure I endure the consequences of my foolishness ( I might have the good fortune to be wearing oven mitts, or the pot of boiling water may miss me on the way down.. )
 
The emphasis in the Bible is on being forgiven for your crimes against God. That is far more like robbing a bank than it is touching a stove.  Forgiveness, which the Bible speaks at length on,  is a act of AGENCY.  You don't forgive a natural consequence.  You avoid it or you don't. That we all commit crimes against God there can be no question - but if we have any sort of meaningful free will, then we are not Subjects of God or his laws until we choose to be. God wouldn't need to threaten  - if you want to be with God, near God, you choose to live in his kingdom and under his laws.  That is the deal.  If you don't then God has no right to punish you with hell fire, at least if he granted you free will.

It has to be one or the other, so if you have free will, one must conclude that the (seldom made) statements about hell are "embellishments" made by men.  Otherwise, God did not really grant us free will for he expects us to make choices in an environment of threats and coercion.
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: ChrstnHsbndFthr on November 13, 2014, 12:33:13 PM
The mere separation from God is the hell. It is expressed as clearly as possible to people who have never endured it. But, those who have chosen not to stay do choose that hell. It is a free choice. The choice that does not exist is to stay in God's presence, but not accept Him as God.

The removal from His presence makes me think of the "choice" argument. What many mean is the right to choose again. It does not exist. The natural consequence of not choosing God is choosing to be without God and not in His presence. Since we know that mankind is an eternal being, and that everything else goes back to God who made it, this would naturally be a painful existence, wouldn't it?

I do not picture this as God sitting around devising tortures for people who fail to choose Him, but rather as God withdrawing His presence from them, and consequentially they will suffer for it.  Clearly, He warns about it. But, casting out is a moment of judgment, in a sense, as if you have not chosen God by then, your fate is sealed. His outreach to mankind goes on right to the end. The only alternative is to take choice away entirely.  Claiming we have no choice, is often a cover for knowing that one choice is so bad as to be unthinkable to rational people.  I myself have said I have no choice, when in truth I do, but the mere thought of the alternative is dismissed as ridiculous.  There is discussion of preparing heaven. I am not at all sure that hell or the abyss has to be prepared as I cannot find discussion of that.

But, then let us assume you are right and our Creator has threatened us and will intentionally destroy us. So? He is the Creator. Do you not have the right to destroy what you create? (Ever used an eraser? The bible uses the example of the potter and his clay. Can't he do with it as he wills? May he not destroy any pot that is not desirable? Can't he use one for flowers and another as a chamber pot? If we agree that we are His creation, can't we agree that it is just if He decides what to do with us, according to His purposes and our effectiveness?
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Weisshaupt on November 13, 2014, 05:28:13 PM
The mere separation from God is the hell.

That is all fine and good AND I can certain agreed and cope with that definition.
You do understand that ISN'T what the bible says, right?

The choice that does not exist is to stay in God's presence, but not accept Him as God.

And so the only  place in the universe we are not in his presence is a Pit of Brimstone fire?

I do not picture this as God sitting around devising tortures for people who fail to choose Him, but rather as God withdrawing His presence from them, and consequentially they will suffer for it.  Clearly, He warns about it. But, casting out is a moment of judgment, in a sense, as if you have not chosen God by then, your fate is sealed.

Yes, a moment of judgement, under laws you never consented to follow, punishable by an eternity of torture and pain.  That is coercion and a violation of free will. Yes God can do that - he is all powerful. He is also establishing that his might makes right, rather than his perfection or just nature. Such a being isn't worthy of being called perfect or just in my opinion, since his rule isn't based on consent, but threats. 

But, then let us assume you are right and our Creator has threatened us and will intentionally destroy us. So? He is the Creator. Do you not have the right to destroy what you create? (Ever used an eraser? The bible uses the example of the potter and his clay. Can't he do with it as he wills? May he not destroy any pot that is not desirable? Can't he use one for flowers and another as a chamber pot? If we agree that we are His creation, can't we agree that it is just if He decides what to do with us, according to His purposes and our effectiveness?

Sure, he can destroy what he creates....  If never gave us freewill,  never gave us to ourselves and never relinquished his right of ownership over us. Or are you suggesting is God is some sort of "indian giver" ? -  Did he give us free will and then decide he was "just fooling"?  If we are God's property then yes, he can do with us as he will.  But then we have no will but his for he will use force against us even if we do not desire to be used for flowers or for a chamber pot.

Free Will is simply incompatible with the idea of an active punishment for disobedience or rejection of God as described in the Bible. And While I am able to locate passages about hell and punishment for choosing wrong, I can find no passages where God ever grants man Free will or to be his own sovereign - merely that God allows man to make decisions  against his will while we are on earth - only to be actively punished for those decisions later.   That is not free will.  That is living with a defined system of coercion that no individual was allowed to choose or reject.

Its all very... leftist.
 
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: ChrstnHsbndFthr on November 14, 2014, 01:44:26 AM
It is certain that we disagree on many things scripturally speaking. I have been a bible student for nearly 50 years and as such my understanding and opinions have changed many times as I learn and understand new things.  I do not accept your assertion of an active punishment and prefer to stand with scripture that describes those who rejected God as being sent from His presence. Understand that in many places the descriptions given are giving a picture of the pain, and perhaps not an actual description of the surroundings. The entire book of Revelation describes things in metaphorical senses and it would be a mistake to take it all literally.  That is one of the interpretive challenges we face in all of scripture. What is literal and what is metaphor? There are many things that are word pictures, painted to increase the understanding of people who could not relate to the concepts.  (Trying to explain the oneness of God who presents Himself in three persons is a challenge to this day!)  It is clear to me that we have no right to enslave God, by demanding that He create and maintain a place for those who do not wish to be with Him. That appears to me to be the height of liberalism.
I see no conflict between God giving you life, letting you choose, and then deciding if He wants you in His presence or not, where He has prepared a place for us. It appears to me to be His right as our Creator.  I see the banishment from His presence as a painful thing in itself, since it is in Him that we live and move and have our being. And I see the descriptions of this pain described throughout the scriptures, but particularly by Christ and the Apostles in the New Testament. 
You complain that you never consented to being created under the terms that you have been. Okay. How could that have happened? You may not wish to breath air, but, alas, you were designed that way. You may not want to face the decision of being with God or not, but you were designed that way too. Perhaps your lot is unfair, but to whom shall you complain? There is no one to appeal to. God remains God and has every right to create us as He has. The freedom is there. The choice is bad.  Your complaint is not that you do not have freedom to choose, you merely want other choices. But, that is not ours to change.  It appears just to me that the Creator can make the rules. The nature of God is such that He desires you. And He wants you to desire Him. He offers you much, when you have nothing to offer Him. Nothing. It is purely by Grace that your salvation is arranged and it is a free gift there for the taking. I call that conservatism, because God took nothing from anyone to give to you. He provided everything from His own goodness and mercy.  The penalty for sin is death. You have already admitted the truth of the scripture that all men have sinned. And yet arrangements are made for complete forgiveness. What more could be asked? Do you seriously have a right to complain? I see nothing that prevents you from creating your own heaven and earth, except your own inability to do so. Perhaps if you were a liberal you could demand that God create something for you alone. But, I do not think you a liberal.

God has arranged a place for you to come or not. The choice is yours. Its an easy choice. It was not meant to confuse anyone.
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Libertas on November 14, 2014, 06:10:10 AM
I think, perhaps, the more frightening speculation is...what if the Devil is a Conservative?

But I think that argument falls apart pretty quickly for obvious reasons...so if that is false, then the opposite certainly cannot be true, right?

I am going for simple, I like simple, the less complicated the answer the more correct it is likely to be.

Man, I hope I didn't start any new stuff, it is not my intent!
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Weisshaupt on November 14, 2014, 08:52:33 AM
It is certain that we disagree on many things scripturally speaking. I have been a bible student for nearly 50 years and as such my understanding and opinions have changed many times as I learn and understand new things.  I do not accept your assertion of an active punishment and prefer to stand with scripture that describes those who rejected God as being sent from His presence.

I am certainly no Bible Scholar and wouldn't even think of calling myself one. However, I have already provided two examples from Scripture which I think clearly describe  God and his Angels taking an active part in casting people into a pit of fire and warning men to be scared of the wrath of God for sinning.  I would be happy to look at what evidence you would like to provide to refute that interpretation should you care to provide it.

God can make whatever rules he wants, but granting Freewill (if he did so ) imposes rules on Him. If mankind is to have freewill God cannot set up a system of coercion that would PUNISH people for making choices God disagrees with. And "Punishment" is the word used consistently in the Bible. Active. Involved. Pain and Suffering for commission of a crime.  When you burn yourself on the stove we call it an accident not a crime.  The burn is an unfortunate result, not a punishment.  If Hell is just suffering endured because of the absence of God,  a natural consequence,  like a burn from the stove, why would that constantly be referred to as a "punishment" in the Bible?
Why would the reason for that punishment be constantly referred to as crimes committed against God (sins)?
 
Quote
Matthew 25
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

So how is one to know when a description is metaphorical vs literal?  The verses I have found have all been very consistent in their description of brimstone, a lake of fire, burning etc- which suggests a non-metaphorical and literal use..

It is clear to me that we have no right to enslave God, by demanding that He create and maintain a place for those who do not wish to be with Him. That appears to me to be the height of liberalism.

Um, no. You claimed we were God's Property - his pots - that is a claim of slavery of the human race BY God.  IF God doesn't own us,  that is NOT equivalent to an attempt to enslave him. That is like saying live and let live allows me to unfairly impose my views on you-- namely my view that I am a free human being.  If God granted us free will, that imposes limits on his control over us and right to issue punishments.

God  is not beholden to create or maintain "a place" (what does that mean outside of space-time? I have no clue) for the men he supposedly set free from him. But if there is no "place" for them to live free that satisfies the requirements God built into their nature, then he didn't really free them, did he? Of course according to the bible he did create a place.. Its a lake of fire where they will be tortured for all eternity.

I see no conflict between God giving you life, letting you choose, and then deciding if He wants you in His presence or not, where He has prepared a place for us. It appears to me to be His right as our Creator.


There isn't any conflict in that, as long as you don't pretend my "choice" is made without coercion and threats..
The choice cannot be made in free will , because threats of punishment have been made. God of course can do what  he wants with his property of  human slaves and set up any rules he desires. Those rules were not consented to by the people involved (because they cannot refuse without being punished) and therefore they were not granted free will - merely a "choice" in a coercive environment.   

Perhaps your lot is unfair, but to whom shall you complain? There is no one to appeal to. God remains God and has every right to create us as He has. The freedom is there. The choice is bad.  Your complaint is not that you do not have freedom to choose, you merely want other choices.

No, my complaint is that the  choices offered are offered  in an environment of coercion. Seriously, If I told you that you must serve me or you would be deprived of air, or water, or food , would you not feel coerced? After all,  Its not my fault  that you need air , water or food, so I am not coercing you, correct? In God's case it actually is his fault that you need those things, so when he threatens to deny them its worse isn't it? 

Quote
“For if you suffer your people to be ill-educated, and their manners to be corrupted from their infancy, and then punish them for those crimes to which their first education disposed them, what else is to be concluded from this, but that you first make thieves and then punish them.”
? Thomas More, Utopia

How many millennia passed before Jesus was even sent to educate us? How imperfectly was that information spread in the world thereafter? How confusing and difficult bible scholarship is when I read one passage as think it says one thing, and you say it means something other via metaphor. The Creator of the universe couldn't communicate more clearly than this? He allowed us to become sinful and corrupted. He gave us a poor and confusing education, and then intends to punish us for doing what our natures and education incline us to do.
 
But, that is not ours to change.  It appears just to me that the Creator can make the rules. The nature of God is such that He desires you. And He wants you to desire Him. He offers you much, when you have nothing to offer Him. Nothing. It is purely by Grace that your salvation is arranged and it is a free gift there for the taking.

God can make whatever rules he wants, but granting Freewill (if he did so ) imposes rules on Him. If mankind is to have freewill God cannot set up a system of coercion that would PUNISH people for making choices God disagrees with. Failure to comply would simply leave them free to exist without God. No "Punishment" involved.
Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Weisshaupt on November 14, 2014, 08:55:38 AM
I think, perhaps, the more frightening speculation is...what if the Devil is a Conservative?

Given that he declared himself and his Angels a Free Sovereign and outside of God's Control, then yeah, in that sense he is a conservative. However if you use that freedom to immediately turn around and become God's instruments of torture what did you gain?

Title: Re: What if God is Liberal?
Post by: Libertas on November 14, 2014, 11:18:01 AM
I think, perhaps, the more frightening speculation is...what if the Devil is a Conservative?

Given that he declared himself and his Angels a Free Sovereign and outside of God's Control, then yeah, in that sense he is a conservative. However if you use that freedom to immediately turn around and become God's instruments of torture what did you gain?

Lucifer declared himself above God, probably not a wise career move, but it is also the hallmark of a libiot, so that seems congruous.  Plus, Lucifer, not God, received high praise in Allinsky's "Rules for Radicals", kinda telling don't you think?  IMO God likes free-thinkers...just not ones that seek to subvert and or replace him.  Lucifer didn't have to rebel and challenge God, he could have stayed loyal and enjoyed Heaven and being one of God's high angels, he thought he could gain the whole kingdom but was given a new kingdom instead, and he has been warring against God and God's creations (principally us!) ever since.  In that latter regard he could have hardly received better Allies than Mohammad and Allinsky!