It's About Liberty: A Conservative Forum

Topics => Judiciary, Crime, & Courts => Topic started by: AlanS on June 04, 2013, 08:02:00 AM

Title: The war on drugs.
Post by: AlanS on June 04, 2013, 08:02:00 AM
I think everyone can agree that it's a big failure. Here's what a couple countries have done. It's an hour long, so get comfy.


http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/breaking_the_taboo_film/


Legalizing drugs seems to have the desired effect. The part that concerns me, though, is this is the same crowd that's blaming us for "Climate Change".
Title: Re: The war on drugs.
Post by: benb61 on June 05, 2013, 10:44:13 AM
I need to find some time to review that.
Title: Re: The war on drugs.
Post by: Libertas on June 05, 2013, 11:22:24 AM
Just think of all the additional sin tax collections...
Title: Re: The war on drugs.
Post by: Glock32 on June 05, 2013, 01:26:18 PM
Human beings have a natural desire to alter their state of mind, well at least a very substantial number of human beings do. Always have, always will. Reasons vary from desiring euphoria, to perceiving the world through a different lens. The opium poppy is one of the very oldest cultivated plants, right back to the very beginning of agriculture.

The only thing we've "accomplished" in waging a so-called war on drugs is to massively expand the power, scope, and budget of the state's police apparatus at the expense of the individual's liberty and property. Call me a cynic, but I believe that has always been the purpose of the WOD anyway. The "war on terror" is being used in much the same way. Tying into the other thread where everyone is brainstorming their Amendment ideas, how about this one: "No wars on abstract concepts"

I don't know what the answer is to the social scourge that rampant drug use can cause, but I know it's not what they're doing now.
Title: Re: The war on drugs.
Post by: Libertas on June 06, 2013, 06:41:20 AM
I'd go for that Amendment.

And as to the latter...I dunno...but I would assume it would be like how alcohol is handled now with respect to the milder drugs...for harder stuff there can only be harsher penalties for causing injuries to others etc.
Title: Re: The war on drugs.
Post by: ToddF on June 06, 2013, 07:18:18 AM
The last 10 years I've been pretty firm on legalization.  For no more than the fact that American money has destroyed Mexico.  It's obvious that feral Americans want to destroy themselves.   Let them, without taking other countries down with us.
Title: Re: The war on drugs.
Post by: AmericanPatriot on June 06, 2013, 10:53:58 AM
War on Drugs
War on Terror
War on Poverty

We're really beating them back, huh?
Title: Re: The war on drugs.
Post by: Libertas on June 06, 2013, 11:30:56 AM
Yeah, they have us right where they want us...

...all part of the real war...the WOC (War On Civilians)!

Oh, and this kind of asshattery (not limited to the psychotic libiot greehouses like NYC!) is advancing the war front...

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2013/06/new-york-bill-would-make-it-a-crime-to-annoy-police-2673740.html (http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2013/06/new-york-bill-would-make-it-a-crime-to-annoy-police-2673740.html)

Public servants?  Pah!  Priveldged stormtroopers in the making! 

But remember...they all say we are "free"...

Well, are we?  Who works for whom, and why?
Title: Re: The war on drugs.
Post by: Glock32 on June 06, 2013, 01:21:40 PM
Criminalization of drugs began in earnest in the mid 1920s, so let's say 90 years ago. Nearly a full century. Is there any place in America where you can't get a bag of weed within an hour? I'd venture to say no. And obviously the harder drugs like cocaine and heroin are easily obtained as well, since apparently all the money and sweeping new authoritarian laws are just never enough to get them under control.

I don't know the answer, and I suspect the real problem is in assuming that there even is an answer. There were lots of opiate addicts in the 1800s. But it was also legal and inexpensive to obtain their drug of choice, so it wasn't fueling violent crime like the modern drug trade does. At some point you just have to let people do with their own lives as they will, and don't involve the power of the state unless and until their behavior becomes a genuine threat to others.
Title: Re: The war on drugs.
Post by: charlesoakwood on June 06, 2013, 04:01:43 PM

I agree.
Title: Re: The war on drugs.
Post by: benb61 on June 06, 2013, 04:18:41 PM
Criminalization of drugs began in earnest in the mid 1920s, so let's say 90 years ago. Nearly a full century. Is there any place in America where you can't get a bag of weed within an hour? I'd venture to say no. And obviously the harder drugs like cocaine and heroin are easily obtained as well, since apparently all the money and sweeping new authoritarian laws are just never enough to get them under control.

I don't know the answer, and I suspect the real problem is in assuming that there even is an answer. There were lots of opiate addicts in the 1800s. But it was also legal and inexpensive to obtain their drug of choice, so it wasn't fueling violent crime like the modern drug trade does. At some point you just have to let people do with their own lives as they will, and don't involve the power of the state unless and until their behavior becomes a genuine threat to others.

Mighty Libertarian of you.
Title: Re: The war on drugs.
Post by: ChrstnHsbndFthr on June 06, 2013, 04:21:00 PM
This is an issue to which I have given a great deal of thought and have had a complete change of heart and mind upon. As a conservative Christian, my position was predictably anti-drug and I was an advocate of the war on drugs.  But, I was convinced by compelling arguments from a libertarian friend to change my mind and I have only grown stronger in my demands that we TOTALLY legalize ALL drugs.  This is not a half-measure sort of issue. We must legalize them all, in order to see the full success of the idea.

First, let me say that my work as a bail bondsman has convinced me even more strongly of this: Making them illegal makes them PROFITABLE.  And where there is money to be made, someone will make it. I have seen this corrupt young people, cops, lawyers, judges, and anyone else you can think of, right down to supposed preachers of the gospel.  And there is only one way to take the money out of it. It is to make it legal. This will generate competition, drive prices down, and remove the very idea of the "pusher." And I say this in full knowledge that my personal living will be severely damaged by ending the drug war. But, again, I believe it is morally the right thing to do.

Second, yes, I realize that a cheap supply of drugs will bring death to some. But, these people are dying anyway. They are dying more slowly, stealing, starving themselves, and prostituting themselves to feed the pushers. And when they have cheap and easy access to drugs at least some addicts will overdose. But, those same addicts will no longer be thieves and murderers and prostitutes. They will stop having unwanted children. Their children will, in fact, have a better chance at a decent life, because their drug-addled parents have killed themselves with a drug-overdose.  

I know how cruel that must sound, to people who do not witness the daily suffering of the current system. But, what happens now is even more cruel. It involves innocent people who have not chosen to sell their bodies. It involves innocent people who get robbed and sometimes killed to feed the drug habit, which merely enriches the drug pusher. There are millions of dollars of damage being done to the power lines and air conditioners just in my home county, but drug addicts stealing copper to sell for scrap so they can feed their habit. And every so often one of the addicts makes a mistake and electrocutes himself.

We have not even touched the tax consequences. I will still say it is stupid to use illicit drugs. But, I want people to be free to be stupid.

And the other, more positive side, is that some drugs are controlled that should not be. I cannot self-medicate because the law says I cannot. So, although i have two diseases that require the same medication every day for the rest of my life, I must go back to the doctor every six months, and pay him to tell me what I already know, so I can get a prescription and have what I already know I need. Tell me that total legalization is not a good idea. If you can. I am convinced that this must be done and I would strongly advocate for it in any society.

I am unconcerned with the perception. The reality is what is important.
Title: Re: The war on drugs.
Post by: Predator Don on June 06, 2013, 04:30:59 PM
Every 4 years we could have a national drug day.....in conjunction with voting.
Title: Re: The war on drugs.
Post by: benb61 on June 06, 2013, 04:39:53 PM
Every 4 years we could have a national drug day.....in conjunction with voting.

Day before for libtards, day after for the res of us.
Title: Re: The war on drugs.
Post by: Dan on June 06, 2013, 07:47:04 PM
Absolutely agree, CHF.
I think, though, any taxes collected (for any specific purpose, like cigs) should go to treatment, not into a general fund such as income, and those that use, and need it, paid for the treatment beforehand, i think. Mybe separate it somehow to cover the cost of moving goods over the roads and using police and fire, etc, but for the most part, make sure those who cant handle it in a casual manner don't become a detriment to society, family, etc.
But it's nobody's damn business how I spend my free time and what I do with my body, so long as I'm not murdering anybody.
Title: Re: The war on drugs.
Post by: AlanS on June 07, 2013, 03:12:05 AM
This is an issue to which I have given a great deal of thought and have had a complete change of heart and mind upon. As a conservative Christian, my position was predictably anti-drug and I was an advocate of the war on drugs.  But, I was convinced by compelling arguments from a libertarian friend to change my mind and I have only grown stronger in my demands that we TOTALLY legalize ALL drugs.  This is not a half-measure sort of issue. We must legalize them all, in order to see the full success of the idea.

First, let me say that my work as a bail bondsman has convinced me even more strongly of this: Making them illegal makes them PROFITABLE.  And where there is money to be made, someone will make it. I have seen this corrupt young people, cops, lawyers, judges, and anyone else you can think of, right down to supposed preachers of the gospel.  And there is only one way to take the money out of it. It is to make it legal. This will generate competition, drive prices down, and remove the very idea of the "pusher." And I say this in full knowledge that my personal living will be severely damaged by ending the drug war. But, again, I believe it is morally the right thing to do.

Second, yes, I realize that a cheap supply of drugs will bring death to some. But, these people are dying anyway. They are dying more slowly, stealing, starving themselves, and prostituting themselves to feed the pushers. And when they have cheap and easy access to drugs at least some addicts will overdose. But, those same addicts will no longer be thieves and murderers and prostitutes. They will stop having unwanted children. Their children will, in fact, have a better chance at a decent life, because their drug-addled parents have killed themselves with a drug-overdose.  

I know how cruel that must sound, to people who do not witness the daily suffering of the current system. But, what happens now is even more cruel. It involves innocent people who have not chosen to sell their bodies. It involves innocent people who get robbed and sometimes killed to feed the drug habit, which merely enriches the drug pusher. There are millions of dollars of damage being done to the power lines and air conditioners just in my home county, but drug addicts stealing copper to sell for scrap so they can feed their habit. And every so often one of the addicts makes a mistake and electrocutes himself.

We have not even touched the tax consequences. I will still say it is stupid to use illicit drugs. But, I want people to be free to be stupid.

And the other, more positive side, is that some drugs are controlled that should not be. I cannot self-medicate because the law says I cannot. So, although i have two diseases that require the same medication every day for the rest of my life, I must go back to the doctor every six months, and pay him to tell me what I already know, so I can get a prescription and have what I already know I need. Tell me that total legalization is not a good idea. If you can. I am convinced that this must be done and I would strongly advocate for it in any society.

I am unconcerned with the perception. The reality is what is important.


I agree up to a point. The thieving and killing will still go on in the urban jungles. With the moral decay in the large cities, legal drugs will barely have a dent.
Title: Re: The war on drugs.
Post by: ChrstnHsbndFthr on June 07, 2013, 06:23:15 AM
Some will, that is undoubtedly true.  But, most of the money from theft perpetrated against individuals is going to pay for illegal drugs.  Taking that out of the system or at least greatly reducing it will make a difference in crime. This has spread even to rural areas.  Even if the feral urban areas are not completely cured, the improvement in the suburbs and rural areas is worth it.
Title: Re: The war on drugs.
Post by: Libertas on June 07, 2013, 06:44:56 AM
Every 4 years we could have a national drug day.....in conjunction with voting.

Day before for libtards, day after for the res of us.

 ;D   ::thumbsup::
Title: Re: The war on drugs.
Post by: Libertas on June 07, 2013, 06:47:03 AM
Some will, that is undoubtedly true.  But, most of the money from theft perpetrated against individuals is going to pay for illegal drugs.  Taking that out of the system or at least greatly reducing it will make a difference in crime. This has spread even to rural areas.  Even if the feral urban areas are not completely cured, the improvement in the suburbs and rural areas is worth it.

I too think the net gain overall is an overall drop in violent criminal activity, especially in more civilized areas.
Title: Re: The war on drugs.
Post by: AlanS on June 07, 2013, 02:12:12 PM
Some will, that is undoubtedly true.  But, most of the money from theft perpetrated against individuals is going to pay for illegal drugs.  Taking that out of the system or at least greatly reducing it will make a difference in crime. This has spread even to rural areas.  Even if the feral urban areas are not completely cured, the improvement in the suburbs and rural areas is worth it.

I too think the net gain overall is an overall drop in violent criminal activity, especially in more civilized areas.

Still won't help the urban jungle. The ones who don't work and like to steal shyt other people have worked for.
Title: Re: The war on drugs.
Post by: Libertas on June 07, 2013, 02:22:23 PM
Some will, that is undoubtedly true.  But, most of the money from theft perpetrated against individuals is going to pay for illegal drugs.  Taking that out of the system or at least greatly reducing it will make a difference in crime. This has spread even to rural areas.  Even if the feral urban areas are not completely cured, the improvement in the suburbs and rural areas is worth it.

I too think the net gain overall is an overall drop in violent criminal activity, especially in more civilized areas.

Still won't help the urban jungle. The ones who don't work and like to steal shyt other people have worked for.

Shoot them.