Author Topic: The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens  (Read 3255 times)

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Online IronDioPriest

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The Extrajudicial Killings of American Citizens
« on: September 30, 2011, 08:51:49 AM »
This is good news for the GWOT.
 ::jihadnanner::
US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen

SANAA, Yemen (AP) — Anwar al-Awlaki, a U.S.-born Islamic militant cleric who became a prominent figure in al-Qaida's most active branch, using his fluent English and Internet savvy to draw recruits to carry out attacks in the United States, was killed Friday in the mountains of Yemen, American and Yemeni officials said.

The Yemeni government and Defense Ministry announced al-Awlaki's death, but gave no details.

<snip>

Yemeni officials have said al-Awlaki had contacts with Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, the accused would-be Christmas plane bomber, who was in Yemen in 2009. They say the believe al-Awlaki met with the 23-year-old Nigerian, along with other al-Qaida leaders, in al-Qaida strongholds in the country in the weeks before the failed bombing.

In New York, the Pakistani-American man who pleaded guilty to the May 2010 Times Square car bombing attempt told interrogators he was "inspired" by al-Awlaki after making contact over the Internet.

Al-Awlaki also exchanged up to 20 emails with U.S. Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, alleged killer of 13 people in the Nov. 5, 2009, rampage at Fort Hood. Hasan initiated the contacts, drawn by al-Awlaki's Internet sermons, and approached him for religious advice.

Al-Awlaki has said he didn't tell Hasan to carry out the shootings, but he later praised Hasan as a "hero" on his Web site for killing American soldiers who would be heading for Afghanistan or Iraq to fight Muslims. The cleric similarly said Abdulmutallab was his "student" but said he never told him to carry out the airline attack.

More linked at the AP....
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline jpatrickham

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2011, 09:33:16 AM »
[more]

CIA Directed Strike That Killed Al Qaeda Boss Anwar al-Awlaki

AP
Quote
"URGENT: Fox News confirms CIA directed attack on Al Qaeda leader Anwar al-Awlaki in Yemen, using two Predator drones and firing Hellfire missiles at his convoy."
::clapping::


http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/09/30/us-born-terror-boss-anwar-al-awlaki-killed/


All I can say is, welcome to Hell Awlaki, hope it hurt real bad, and also, hope it remains that way!  ::devil::
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 09:37:31 AM by jpatrickham »

Online IronDioPriest

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2011, 10:07:21 AM »
...All I can say is, welcome to Hell Awlaki...

I just heard the reporter on Fox News radio say that Awlaki "met his maker", and the first thing that popped into my mind was the Church Lady saying "Satan?"
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline jpatrickham

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2011, 10:13:38 AM »
...All I can say is, welcome to Hell Awlaki...

I just heard the reporter on Fox News radio say that Awlaki "met his maker", and the first thing that popped into my mind was the Church Lady saying "Satan?"


From the old Three Dog Night Song "I Can Swear There Ain't No Heaven, But I Pray There Ain't No Hell!" I Pray There Is! ::praying::

Offline jpatrickham

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Re: US-born al-Qaeda cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2011, 10:22:13 AM »
BREAKING NEWS: Obama to Speak on Killing of Al Qaeda Leader


Reply foxnews.com foxnews@newsletters.foxnews.com to me
show details 10:58 AM (17 minutes ago)


Quote

"President Obama will speak on the CIA strike that killed Al Qaeda leader Anwar al-Awlaki. WATCH LIVE on Fox News and FoxNews.com at 11 a.m. ET

More headlines from FoxNews.com:
http://email.foxnews.com/t?ctl=14945:551F40EA9E802BA72077FA703313F446&



Watch Fox News Channel for complete coverage of this story and all breaking news."

Oh Crap! Isn't that what we have the Associated Press for? If I was the head of the Republican Party, I would ask for equal time. Obama didn't do it, this is part of a coordinated Military response to an Enemy Combatant, their words not mine.

Obama: stay the f*ck off the Television for a while will ya? ::gaah::

Offline Janny

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2011, 10:27:29 AM »
And now we have Ron Paul condeming this brutal attack on an "American citizen." http://weaselzippers.us/2011/09/30/groan-ron-paul-condemns-killing-of-al-qaeda-cleric-anwar-al-awlaki/

Just further confirmation that this senile old man will not do what's necessary to protect this country. Hey, Dr. Paul! What part of "declared war on the US," do you not understand?

Offline jpatrickham

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2011, 11:01:19 AM »
And now we have Ron Paul condeming this brutal attack on an "American citizen." http://weaselzippers.us/2011/09/30/groan-ron-paul-condemns-killing-of-al-qaeda-cleric-anwar-al-awlaki/

Just further confirmation that this senile old man will not do what's necessary to protect this country. Hey, Dr. Paul! What part of "declared war on the US," do you not understand?


SHUT UP RON!!!!! ::oldman::

Online IronDioPriest

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2011, 10:43:16 PM »
I'm just playing devil's advocate here because I think I understand the constitutional question.

I agree with the killing of this Jihadi on the merits. But I'm not 100% sure I do on principle.

He was an American citizen. The only thing we know for sure that he did was to offer rhetorical/spiritual support and encouragement to anti-American Islamic Jihadis. He was not on the battlefield. If he offered material or financial support, or carried out/authorized terrorist attacks on American interests himself, it has not been directly proved. It certainly hasn't been proved in court.

If the argument is that he was an imminent threat to national security, then by that logic, we should have sent a predator drone after Timothy McVeigh in a hypothetical scenario with foreknowledge of his attack. Of course, that would have never happened, and the only difference is that he was on US soil, and not a Muslim. Otherwise the argument could even be made that McVeigh was a greater threat than Awlaki.

We have now entered into an absurd situation where this government seeks to offer Miranda rights and a constitutional criminal trial to foreign-born enemy combatants captured on the battlefield on the one hand, and seeks to kill American citizens in foreign lands with predator drones without the benefit of a trial on the other hand.

I have problems with this on principle, even though as I said, on the merits, the guy should be dead, and this is good news for the GWOT.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

charlesoakwood

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2011, 10:59:39 PM »

There was no cause for presumption of innocence.  He did not deny his activity, he flaunted it and it was treason.  He gave up all rights of citizenship by committing acts of treason and war against America.  Even if he was a citizen his murderous acts were known. 

This was and act of defense of American lives and our culture.
What's his name probably hit the prayer mat when he heard the news.

It's good that RP came out and spoke his mind. He is an intelligent man of conviction and courage, for that he earns respect.  He also exposed his elliptical logic to the electorate and that is also good.


Offline Janny

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2011, 11:18:50 PM »
No, he was an avowed enemy of the United States, and he renounced his citizenship and all the rights that went with it when he took up arms against this country, as Charles said. There was nothing inappropriate about what happened. He was not taken into custody. He was killed on the field of battle in war.

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2011, 01:39:40 AM »
But he never took up arms against the country. And he never "renounced" his citizenship. He was an American citizen. That's the fact, as far as I have seen. As recently as 1999, he was questioned by the FBI and released as not being a threat.

His crime seems to have been that he was a spiritual and rhetorical instigator, not an armed militant. He was a radical cleric propagandist. He had been in contact with terror suspects, and terrorists were found with his Jihadist teaching propaganda. But by any account I've seen, he was not in the battlefield in the same way bin Laden was in the battlefield. He was more like Zawahiri. Except that Zawahiri is not a US citizen.

He did commit treason, by the constitutional definition. But the remedy for that is not a drone strike. It is a constitutional trial for treason. You don't give up your rights by committing acts of treason. You give them up by being convicted of treason.

The more I work it through in my mind, the more I don't like where this is going. When a US government headed by malevolent leaders claims the power to assassinate US citizens without trial, that is a slippery slope. If they were going to open that door, who better to use as a crowbar than a radical Muslim US citizen whose killing everyone would applaud?  Which US citizen is next on the list, and for what reason? If assassination can be done on foreign soil, what will be the prevention for it happening on US soil?

I see that a violation of constitutional principle has taken place here. Every damn time this government twists and stomps on the constitution, a hundred other Pandora's boxes get flung open.

I'm glad the guy's dead. And frankly, I don't know what other choice there would have been. But I think that impossible choice gave this administration the perfect opportunity to set a new precedent.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2011, 02:21:53 AM by IronDioPriest »
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline jpatrickham

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2011, 09:56:11 AM »
Exclusive: The Inside Story Behind the Awlaki Assassination Saturday, 01 October 2011 07:01 Steven Emerson IPT News

Quote
 
Note: "This story is based on reporting with sources knowledgeable about the Awlaki operation, including three law enforcement and intelligence officials.  Anwar Al Awlaki, killed Friday morning in an American strike in Yemen, has been on the U.S. radar for several years, ever since, as one U.S. official stated, he turned from "inspirational to operational." He was believed to be behind the Nigerian "underwear" bomber who tried to ignite his explosives planted on his body as his airplane was landing in Detroit. And he was believed responsible for the cargo bomb plot targeting the United States last fall.

U.S. intelligence officials, aware of other planned attacks, had arrested several Muslim American converts who returned here after "studying" in the Sudan. Most of their time was spent on terrorist training and learning from Awlaki and his advisors about the precepts of jihad and Islam. Intelligence officials believe that "hundreds" of American and European converts to Islam, along with other indigenous Muslims from Islamic countries, have trained with Awlaki, making many of them "ticking time bombs."

Awlaki lived in the southern Yemen province of Shabwa, an area beyond the reach of Yemen's military and central government. Much of Yemen is like the Wild West, with no central governing authority. The numerous tribes settle disputes among themselves. Awlaki came from the Awalik tribe.

Intelligence gathered last year from Yemeni authorities and from debriefings with several American converts who returned to the United States after training with Awlaki, helped narrow Awlaki's location to a 100 square mile area. He moved at night, often in convoys of armored SUVs in order to prevent U.S. drones and surveillance from determining which vehicle he was in. But the drones, which have advanced in the ability to recognize faces on the ground, hovered above the area where Awlaki was believed to be. Electronic intelligence – including telephone intercepts –also were used, although Awlaki was said to be careful in limiting his use of electronic communication, aware that he could be tracked that way."

http://www.rightsidenews.com/2011100114619/world/terrorism/exclusive-the-inside-story-behind-the-awlaki-assassination.html?


charlesoakwood

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2011, 10:49:05 AM »

It's not a precedent that we kill villains. 
The left is trying to set a legal precedent that every villainy go throw the courts.
Some part of their perverted insanity.


Just Say No to Gitmo!


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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2011, 11:09:31 AM »

It's not a precedent that we kill villains.


Definitely not. But that said, there is no question that a new precedent was set with this particular killing.

One power that a free people gives to its government is the power to incarcerate or kill citizens. For such a power not to be used for tyrannical ends, the law demands the the government can only use these powers under specific criteria. One of those criteria is that no matter how guilty - absent a guilty plea - innocence is assumed by the justice system until guilt is proved in court. No matter how far this guy had gone down the terrorist rat-hole, he had rights as a US citizen enumerated by the constitution.

What we have with this killing is the government deciding on its own that Awlaki's alleged crimes warranted an extra-constitutional remedy.

And with that, as I said earlier, we have an absurd situation where this government strives to constitutionally protect a foreign enemy combatant like Kahleed Sheik Mohammed who is responsible for the 9/11 attack on American soil, while ordering a drone strike against a US citizen like Anwar al Awlaki who it appears at worst was a rhetorical and spiritual leader of Jihadi terrorists.

I'm not comfortable with a government willing to grant itself the power to arbitrarily choose who lives and who dies, and who gets constitutional protection and who does not.

"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

charlesoakwood

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2011, 11:45:57 AM »

He was an agent for a force in violent opposition of the United States, killing him sets no new precedent.
Not killing him would have set a precedent, they are trying to rewrite who and what we are.
Typical of their kind they are taking reason and logic and turning it on its head.


Free the innocent Gitmo prisoners.


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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2011, 11:52:23 AM »

He was an agent for a force in violent opposition of the United States, killing him sets no new precedent....


With respect, yes it does Charles. He was a US citizen. How do we ignore that? Any justification of this killing must be set against that reality, and the constitutional questions that emerge as a result. And I'm not even saying the killing wasn't justified. I'm just saying that looking at the whole picture presents constitutional questions that ought not be ignored.

I say this as someone who believes the world would be better off if every Muslim ceased to exist.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2011, 12:57:00 PM »
Good comments here. Since we're all friends is it OK for me to say that you're all right?

I agree in principle with everything that's been said regarding the correctness of taking this guy out. And at the same time IDP raises a valid point about providing a bit of oversight to how it was done.

How I would go forward would be to seek a non-hostile review of the incident (unlike the nasty approach the dhimmi's took with Bush regarding waterboarding) and see if we can clarify the process. This would (could) accomplish a couple of things, mainly ease the minds of those who are inclined to seeing this tactic employed against of any of Øbongo's enemies.

So my comments echo those who applaud the regime's actions even while I question their legality.

Confused yet?  :o

Offline Glock32

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2011, 01:00:45 PM »
I see it being not all that unlike American citizens joining the Waffen SS or something like that. They may be American citizens, but when they travel to a foreign land to join with an entity waging war against the United States, they make themselves targets just as much as their foreign cohorts. What if the British had targeted the radio broadcast facilities in Berlin, where Lord Haw Haw was transmitting his propaganda back to England, and had killed him in the attack? I don't think assassination would have been the word for it, so much as attacking the enemy's communications infrastructure and happening to eliminate him in the process.

This is something that has bothered me ever since the "War on Terror" began. The enemy is using semantics and legal definitions against us. It's almost as if the fact that they are not a state entity with uniforms should somehow relegate them to the same sort of retaliatory measures we might use against bank robbers or other common criminals. We have an enemy that has military capabilities, and a recognizable command and control organizational structure. We can't fail to respond in kind just because they have not obliged us with uniforms and a particular place on the map neatly enclosed by borders.

The closest historical example we can draw from is the age of piracy. Pirates sometimes amassed their own fleets of powerful ships capable of slugging it out with official state navies. The pirates weren't representative of any particular country, and they were more than happy to prey on their own countrymen if it was convenient. When possible, individual pirates were apprehended and tried in courts, but even then the courts were usually special admiralty courts in recognition of the ambiguous "more than just an ordinary criminal" nature of piracy. But it was also sometimes necessary to simply send a flotilla of man-o-wars to blow them out of the water, no different than if they were the navy of an enemy kingdom.
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Online IronDioPriest

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2011, 01:11:50 PM »
What if I moved to Canada and began propagandizing against the rogue US government, making the case for its illegitimacy, encouraging people that it was their duty to rise up against it through acts of violence, and distributing propaganda that militants used to fuel an actual movement? Hypothetical I know, but usefully so. And it may not be so hypothetical if this government continues down its intended path of tyranny, but I digress.

What should be the response of this government, assuming that attempted acts of terror or conspiracy to commit them can be associated with my efforts to radicalize others? Am I protected under the constitution? I believe I am. That doesn't mean I shouldn't be killed. It means there is a constitutional way to bring it about. Sending a drone across the border to Canada to take me out fails to give me due process as an American citizen.

Think about the implications - not for this case, but for the future - for precedent. An American citizen was targeted and killed by the government without due process.

Damn, that sends chills down my spine.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

charlesoakwood

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Re: US-born al-Qaida cleric Anwar al-Awlaki killed in Yemen
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2011, 01:32:32 PM »
Depends on how affective you are.

                                                    
                                    
                                                              
                                                                 ;D