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Topics => TEOTWAWKI => Topic started by: charlesoakwood on June 25, 2011, 06:40:39 PM

Title: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: charlesoakwood on June 25, 2011, 06:40:39 PM

LINK  (http://westernrifleshooters.wordpress.com/2011/06/13/a-request-to-the-ncos-and-other-small-unit-leaders/)
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A Request To All Current/Former NCOs And Other Small Unit Leaders

...Responses will be accepted though 6 pm edt on 20 June. Make any assumptions you need to keep the scenario realistic (e.g, terrain, etc.), but state those assumptions and how your response would have changed had the facts been different.

The objective is to provide some experienced guidance on a situation many will face in the coming weeks, months, and years.

Thank you in advance for your participation.

Scenario: The bad thing has happened, and you find yourself as senior person in a very mixed group of 15 men, women, and young people aged 10 through 72, all of whom are in various levels of physical condition. Note that while you have a few vets, you DO NOT have any Deltas, scout-snipers, or other operators – just a mixed bag of scared 21st-century Americans.

Arms, ammo, and gear are the expected mixed bag, and skill levels are unknown.

You expect pressure from remnant government forces, local predators (both single/small groups and larger, more organized bad-guy groups a la MS13), and international relief forces (who will disarm any ‘refugees’ they find and send them to ‘relief camps’). Food supplies are dwindling, and you have adequate but limited water purification resources. You assume overhead imagery via UAVs and sigint collection are still functioning for the government remnants and/or international forces, voice and data cell service is sporadic, all roads are significantly interdicted with fixed and rolling roadblocks, and POL is generally not available commercially due to the “emergency”.

What do you do, in detail, over the next:

- Three minutes
– Three hours
– Three days
– Three weeks
– Three months

Explain ‘why’ as well as ‘what’ you are doing, and when you would do other things.

80 Responses to A Request
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Came across this and the perspective from GI's are interesting.


Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: charlesoakwood on June 25, 2011, 08:26:34 PM

Many links source site                                                             

Come and Take It (http://gardenserf.wordpress.com/2010/03/04/come-and-take-it/)

The following fictional scenario combined with an essay originally appeared on the OTM website founded by visionary author Charles Hugh Smith. I’m re-posting this essay here because it ties together both my avid pursuit of current events covering actual resource wars as well as my love for dreaming up hypothetical futures.

Come and Take It (Chris Sullins, August 12, 2008)

The state capitol court building was still in remarkable shape given everything that had happened in the nation over the last five years. It was now surrounded by an outer wall of steel-reinforced concrete topped with a spiral of razor wire. The grounds enclosed by the security wall included both a rotunda with a memorial to the state’s Vietnam War dead and a grassy area where the Blackhawk which brought Tom Hedge had just landed. Things had changed a lot since Tom’s father had fought in the war and returned home to this state. Tom twisted his wrists slightly against the cable tie handcuffs which bound him and continued to walk between two soldiers. He thought “How has it come to this.”

After the helicopter lifted off and left, its rotor sound was replaced by the hum of a massive generator housed in a shipping container at the edge of the field. As the soldiers took Tom up the steps to the court building, he noticed woodstove pipes which jutted randomly out of some windows on each floor. They weren’t in use now that it was mid-Summer, but he saw stacks of split wood and piles coal placed off to one side along the building’s foundation stones.

At the top of the steps was a large open verandah that was sand-bagged to waist high. Various soldiers and state police officers milled around on this deck talking and smoking. They all wore body armor and were armed with both rifles and handguns. Tom was led past this group through a set of windowless double steel doors. He immediately felt the cool air from mechanical air-conditioning –something he thought had been lost to the past. He found it somewhat amusing that the metal detector arch and x-ray baggage machine was off, though.

Tom was escorted through the atrium and to the left where he entered a large courtroom. Five judges sat on the bench facing across from the entryway, a dozen men in suits stood around tables facing the judges, and more soldiers and state police officers sat along the walls. Off to one side Tom noticed men sitting in mixed camouflage uniforms and recognized them as his comrades and survivors from yesterday’s battle. All were in zip-ties and some were in bandages. He was placed with them. Although he had been re-elected as their leader two years ago no one looked up or acknowledged him in any way.

The court was called to order and after some instructions from one judge to the stenographer, one of the men in suits began speaking and listing the charges against Tom and his group. Some of the men’s heads sank lower while others closed their eyes; Tom drifted off to thoughts of the past. He remembered the terrible events over the last five years which resulted in the state losing over 90% of its population –75% within the first year alone.

“…Tom Hedge and his men then seized equipment from the State Guard Armory at Springfield including tanks, armored personnel carriers, small-arms, and assorted ammunition…”

Tom felt he did his best to control the local situation after the old order fell apart. After the national grid went down and didn’t come back, it didn’t take long before hordes of people from the city nearby in the next state began to drift across his county. With no real leadership left in the decapitated federal government out East followed by the lack of re-supply and later loss of radio communication with the state government, Hedge and his men had to make the hard decisions and use any local resources at hand.

“…witnesses who will provide testimony of unlawful detention, forced labor, the denial of food and medical care…”

Food was always in short supply for the first three years. All the canned food was consumed in the first few weeks; most of the livestock that hadn’t been eaten during the first winter was stolen in the middle of the night during a raid from the county to the east, wild game became rare at best, and fish in the lakes were depleted. Local farming only made a good comeback last year after a long time subsisting on fruit trees, berries, wild roots and any imported goods they could barter from travelling merchants. Although the food supply had improved, local agriculture was now very labor intensive and this had come with hard choices –do you feed tractors, tanks, or people?

“…conspired with terrorists from the stateless Western Expanse to raid the bio-diesel facility in our neighboring allied state of…”

Much to his surprise Tom had learned that some people were never interested in on the spot gold or silver bullion trades for their goods and services. Even after the old order of things fell apart and the national currency became worthless, these people still spoke of “written contracts” and “verbal agreements” with people living in other places. He was even more amazed to find out some of these outside deals made in advance were for less than what he had offered.

“…in violation of the Tri-State Treaty signed in Fort Wayne last year. I should add the State Attorney General has also received a request for extradition in regard to a separate incident…”

Hedge’s men had captured a so-called messenger from the reorganized State government two years ago. The man stated he was sent out to contact the leadership in each of the counties on the old map and have them send representatives to the State Capitol Building for a meeting. He said the State was aware of Hedge and his men and wanted them to attend as well.

The traveler talked about a lot of big plans the State government had in mind such as getting the rail lines working again. With the trains running they could start trading again with some of the neighboring states. However, he didn’t know when regular rail transportation would include Tom’s part of the state.

Tom told the man he didn’t believe the new state government would be any different than the last one. It was just another group trying to assert power. What came next? Taxes? The last state government did nothing except leave them flapping in the breeze when things were at their worst. Tom sent the man on his way with a simple “We’re not interested. Don’t come back here.” He didn’t want a war with yet another group, but just to be left alone.

“…resisted complying with lawful authority and failed to submit his forces to inspection and training by the Commander of the State Guard as required under the Unorganized Militia Act…”

Hedge’s men had seen their fair share of battles both with the county to their east as well as with the raiders who seemed to come from all directions. During the first year the marauders came by four-wheeled vehicles, then motorcycles, and then horseback. Every so often a former federal or state military unit would pass through in armored humvees and try to take what they pleased. They had successfully fended off attacks from all of them. His men were as seasoned veterans as any of those who had served in the old republic’s Global War on Terror. Some of his best advisors were veterans from the Middle Eastern front.

Tom noticed the shoulder patches on the uniforms of the State Guard soldiers around him. The spot used in the past for the US Flag was now occupied by the old State flag. Below that flag many of them had combat patches representing now defunct federal units that had seen past combat overseas. The unit patches on the other sleeve were mostly from the old State’s National Guard, mixed with county and city seals. Tom saw one patch representing the county east of his own and noticed its wearer was bearing arms and not a zip-tie.

The new State Guard had used a formidable array of men and equipment yesterday. Hedge’s handful of tanks and APCs were completely taken out during the first minute of the battle by an equal number of A-10s and Apaches. Despite his foxholes, trenches and pillboxes around the old university campus that served as their base of operations, Tom’s 300 men were quickly overwhelmed by 3000 men.

“…Tom Hedge, I said these are the charges before you. How do you plead?”

Tom snapped back to the present. He looked up at the panel of men who would be his judges and mustered the best response he could think of at the moment. The response was one heard frequently on TV back in the old days from the busy streets of Brussels to the dusty bazaars of Baghdad.

Tom looked the judge straight in the eyes and replied “I don’t recognize this court.”

* * *

Take the population of whatever state you’re living in right now and lop a zero off the end. Do the same for your county and all its towns and cities. Take all the cities within 300 miles of road travel and do the same thing. Include cities across state boundaries and international borders. There’s still a lot of people left, isn’t there?

Despite any differences in style of government, predominant language or religion, these are your economic neighbors. They will always share your regional climate and probably the same food distribution network and energy resources.

This smaller number of people would still have a lot of needs, wants, and desires. If they were organized into the same job categories as once existed in Medieval England, there would still be hundreds of different occupations. There was far more in the village of yore than the butcher, the baker and the candlestick maker. (Hurry get in line before the last job left is “Gong Farmer”). Step back even further in time into some remote hamlet in the Dark Ages and there were more employment opportunities available than peasant farmer, skilled mason, literate monk, bored brigand, or rabid raider.

Anyone who has worked with a group of 30 or more people on a daily basis understands the most theoretically simple of systems will get complicated. Each person may have a different role, but they’re all connected in some way. This entire group relies on outside connections as well. The last time life was “simple” for this size of group was sometime prior to the Neolithic period.

Back then there wasn’t as much specialization among group members and very little separation between work, family, and leisure life. But, there were not a lot of different goods and services available either. For example, the sporting goods stores were rather limited to whatever bows and spears could be locally produced. However, the purchaser did get a lifetime parts and labor warranty if the weapon was broken during a hunt –as long as the owner wasn’t eaten first.

As humans we’ve developed our systems to have a more satisfying life in this world. Things seem to run well for a while. At some point they always become unbalanced –either through conflict with our neighbors or with the natural environment itself— and a wheel eventually comes off. Being creatures of the wheel we return to the wreckage, tinker with it, get it running, and either run out of fuel or flip over into another wreck.

The last cultures that had no memory of the physical wheel were almost completely destroyed by the expansionist empires that have led to our modern global civilization. But, even these peoples had social stratification, warfare, and other ills that forced them into painful times of change. If we look back far enough, we find they too, had their ebbs and flows of power, growth and contraction.

There might be a future time in this country where illiterate people in loincloths run around the hills hunting deer with Trijicon-ACOG-topped M4s, but somehow I seriously doubt that would last long. Unlimited caches of ammo and gun-barfing floating stone heads of Zardoz aside, mankind always finds a period of peace and looks for something more in his life. During that time, people will gather together in places of learning. Knowledge and spiritual life become a focus again.

Look at history and take note of the Renaissance that followed centuries of warfare in Europe. Not long after America’s worst carnage ended in 1865, colleges were founded in war-torn Appalachia. During the last century the Balkan states were knocked out three times only to pick up the pieces each time and re-open for business. It doesn’t take much effort to find examples from times and places across the world.

My purpose with the introduction to this essay was to use an individual brush-stroke to help with painting the big picture for a wide audience. I think it’s interesting to note that the readers will range from scholars dealing in statistics to survivalists dealing SKSs. I will read their postings and articles on the same websites later. We all discuss the cycles of growth and collapse. Our thoughts will illuminate as text from the latest laptops to donated monitors in public libraries. Knowledge has been exchanged.

This electronic method will not always be available, but there will still be oral tradition. We will have our story-tellers and teachers. There will be memory. No matter what happens in the future someone will want to formalize all that collective memory into symbols. Knowledge will grow from these tiny seeds of words. To sustain it will require special roles and tools all over again. It’s in our nature as man to do this.

I may have made a crack earlier about Gong Farmers, but I know they have an extremely important job in every village. When I was among a group of officers in Iraq we discussed the various jobs and duties of all the people who kept our bases running. Granted they all had a unique function which would be missed if absent, but we wanted to consider which would have the fastest detrimental effect felt from the top all the way to the bottom if it disappeared. It didn’t take us long to agree that the most important occupation was not the commanding colonel or general, but the handful of guys who emptied our port-a-johns.

I’ll end this by asking the question about the scenario I constructed at the beginning. How would things be different for Tom Hedge if he had considered how the excrement settled after the SHTF?

END

Copyright © 2008
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: charlesoakwood on June 25, 2011, 08:40:33 PM

America: A Nation of Experts in Relativism (http://gardenserf.wordpress.com/2011/06/20/america-a-nation-of-experts-in-relativism/)

   Skilled in the arts of war.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YTdkT_CoGo#ws)         
                                                                         
                                                                         
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There were some times in our history when Americans questioned everything. Questions are good –especially when the answers are actually used. But, on the flip-side there were many more times when the majority of Americans seemed to acquiesce through silent consent. On the surface, American complacency can often be explained by their industrial-scale Pavlovian conditioning to hedonistic comfort combined with a certain amount of their own willful ignorance. Of course, master and slave alike are served by this illusion while the environment they inhabit is still mutually beneficial to them both.

There is a significant measure of responsibility which I can assign to the administrators and purveyors of the system, but I can’t excuse the vast majority of my fellow citizens for their collective role in the poor condition of our country. We can’t measure the degrees of separation between perpetrators, victims, and bystanders because through action or omission at some point along the way, all are culpable.

Although the ultimate truth always seemed elusive, what we can’t agree on anymore is the need to even search for it. As a result we have no common ground as countrymen. The problem is aggravated when common sense is debased to the point of appearing irrelevant in the course of public debate. Justice also loses its footing when the truth is bartered away at the first opportune moment lest its holder be left with any inconvenient liabilities. This epitomizes relativism in America as we know it today. It becomes delusional relativism when its practitioners can frequently change positions without feeling the slightest hint of moral qualm because they can no longer retain any memory of what they once believed.
5 Comments
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Where did this guy come from?
   
If you like this check out his take on the selling of agricultural land in Australia and the USA.


Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: John Florida on June 25, 2011, 09:24:10 PM
We need to put a sticky on this,there is just a lot of info here to take in!! But a very interesting discussion to be had here when ever we can all be logged on. Maybe IDP Trap or Pan can try to set it up!!

 Charles report me to the Mods so we know they got it. I tried to report myself but the system won't let me.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: rickl on June 25, 2011, 10:35:28 PM
Fascinating.  I read all the comments in the first link.  That Gardenserf blog is also interesting.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Pandora on June 26, 2011, 12:17:38 PM
We need to put a sticky on this,there is just a lot of info here to take in!! But a very interesting discussion to be had here when ever we can all be logged on. Maybe IDP Trap or Pan can try to set it up!!

 Charles report me to the Mods so we know they got it. I tried to report myself but the system won't let me.

Unless you've done so already, no need; I gotcha pin right here.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Alphabet Soup on June 26, 2011, 12:38:19 PM
And a very valuable discussion if they can keep their egos in check. In my personal quest for preparation tips and info I visit a great many sites. At many of them I keep seeing the "gray-man" (or alternatively “grey men”) attitude tossed off with mucho macho bravado. While I understand the need to make appropriate choices based on sitrep, the ones who would deliberately set themselves off (or worse - against) their neighbors seem the most foolish. I know it isn't scientific by any stretch, but every examination of the gray-man illustrates that it doesn't work out too good in the end.

Quote
Tribes survive. Individuals become slaves or stew.

The “go it alone” individualist will be swallowed up by bad people who recognize the value of tribe. They will have pooled resources and superior manpower, as well as a command and control structure, based on…well, something. - Arctic Patriot

Facts are, we need family, friends, and neighbors. The ironic thing is that our societal inability to cope with, to deal with, and to tolerate one another is what will bring the downfall, and that in its aftermath will require its resurrection and resumption.

Unless you want to live like a caveman...

For a very short time...
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Pandora on June 26, 2011, 01:14:08 PM
Ironically, Gunsmith and I were discussing your point, Soup, just this morning.  Even when belonging to a church (which we don't) a sense of "community", despite the lefties touting the existence of it, is hard to find for people like us, iow - tribeless.  Once upon a time, that was supplied by family, I suppose; now, it's like-minds and as far as I know, there are no extremely compatible like-minds in our immediate vicinity.  That may come when it's "break glass" time, but the advice is to form up previously.

What I'll not put up with is a self-appointed expert ordering folks around for the sake of "being in charge with superior wisdom and skillz".  He/she is the one I'll shoot first.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: rickl on June 26, 2011, 01:32:01 PM
I kind of saw myself in the "gray man" descriptions, but I have no bravado about it.  It's more a "keep-my-head-down-and-hope-nobody-notices-me" sort of thing.

That's not the same as the rugged individualist who thinks he's Grizzly Adams or something.

I don't know anybody around here, and I'm a poor judge of character in any event.  (Meaning that I have a history of trusting people I shouldn't, and distrusting people I maybe should.)  So I'm just preparing to hunker down here at home and hope for the best.  If that doesn't work out, then hopefully I can at least take out some of the zombies before they get to me.

The hypothetical scenario seemed to be a Bad Thing that happened suddenly, like a nuclear attack or EMP, that caused an abrupt collapse of civilization.  Living in a peaceful suburban neighborhood as I do, I have a hard time envisioning a situation where I'd need to join a guerilla band.  I'd like to see a scenario that involves a gradual decay of civilization, which is more along the lines of what I'm expecting.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: rickl on June 26, 2011, 01:39:52 PM
What I'll not put up with is a self-appointed expert ordering folks around for the sake of "being in charge with superior wisdom and skillz".

That's pretty much what we have now.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Pandora on June 26, 2011, 01:50:26 PM
What I'll not put up with is a self-appointed expert ordering folks around for the sake of "being in charge with superior wisdom and skillz".

That's pretty much what we have now.

Yep.  And as it's currently insufferable as hell, I see no reason to put up with such if survival is optional.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: IronDioPriest on June 26, 2011, 02:41:53 PM
Anyone see the zombie flick "28 Days Later"? Aside from the zombies, it was a study in what happens when SHTF and a small band of men who are used to military order try to apply that order to a crumbling situation when all up-line authority has been removed. The portrayal was no pretty.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: John Florida on June 26, 2011, 02:52:40 PM
There's a new series out called Falling Skies  which is a sort of survival after an alien attack kind of thing but I did see it lat night for the first time and it did make interesting points on survival then no comand and control exists.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: John Florida on June 26, 2011, 02:55:34 PM
For me the thing that I was thinking about is that WE are a comunity of people that are like minded and I would like to play a game where we try to figure out who and where would be the best place to be if we had to depend on no one else but us.

 As in who has the best set up where is it what would it take to get all of us there and with who. What each has to contribute and so on.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Alphabet Soup on June 26, 2011, 02:56:20 PM
I kind of saw myself in the "gray man" descriptions, but I have no bravado about it.  It's more a "keep-my-head-down-and-hope-nobody-notices-me" sort of thing.

That's not the same as the rugged individualist who thinks he's Grizzly Adams or something.

I don't know anybody around here, and I'm a poor judge of character in any event.  (Meaning that I have a history of trusting people I shouldn't, and distrusting people I maybe should.)  So I'm just preparing to hunker down here at home and hope for the best.  If that doesn't work out, then hopefully I can at least take out some of the zombies before they get to me.

The hypothetical scenario seemed to be a Bad Thing that happened suddenly, like a nuclear attack or EMP, that caused an abrupt collapse of civilization.  Living in a peaceful suburban neighborhood as I do, I have a hard time envisioning a situation where I'd need to join a guerilla band.  I'd like to see a scenario that involves a gradual decay of civilization, which is more along the lines of what I'm expecting.

I was going to excerpt part of your post but it's all so good I'm replying to the whole thing ;-)

In my ruminations about our uncertain future I have come to a couple of preliminary conclusions (notice how I cover my azz?!).

1. I am waaay more prepared than any of my neighbors.
2. My mindset is profoundly different than any of my neighbors (or even my family). I have already accepted not only the inevitability of SHTF, but that I won't be a "survivor" (as defined by long-term duration or quality of life).
3. My neighbors are mostly decent people but virtually all sheep.
4. I ain't no Griz.
5. Speaking of judge of character - I'm a great one, just ask any of my ex-wives.

My Pa taught me,  "Plan for the worst; hope for the best" It isn't inviting calamity to consider every scenario - no matter how extreme. Sometimes out of even the most absurd notions comes inspiration and invention. Folks joke about "Zombieland" but there are common-sense cautions to be had even there.

As much as we would all like things to go on undisturbed and unmolested, I think that it is irresponsible to ignore the potential for disaster that confronts us. If things are going to go sideways I would prefer that our crash is as a gentle glide to earth, but need to plan for conditions more like auguring in.

The key to survival and a chance at any kind of decent life after a cataclysm is to stay flexible and innovative. Do your homework now so you don't waste priceless time and resources "reinventing the wheel". Learn to read your environment so that you can make critical decisions with a degree of certainty of outcome. One of the first things you do when you go camping (my favorite survival metaphor) is to survey for a campsite. As you become experienced and adept you quickly learn what is attractive - and what to avoid. That's why most of the responses (so far) have prominently featured assessments and sitrep as first things first.

Remember Rumsfeld's words: "You go to war with the army you have---not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time". Right now we have a certain "luxury" of time to plan and prepare for a wide variety of scenarios. I'm still working on what I am going to do with me neighbors... ::evilbat::
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Pandora on June 26, 2011, 02:58:49 PM
Anyone see the zombie flick "28 Days Later"? Aside from the zombies, it was a study in what happens when SHTF and a small band of men who are used to military order try to apply that order to a crumbling situation when all up-line authority has been removed. The portrayal was no pretty.

Seen it.  You're right; not pretty.

Read several disaster-scenario novels from different perspectives since then and John Ringo of "The Last Centurion" seems to have the best handle on who survives -- it IS a matter of community as far as "who is like us" and that doesn't apply to anything other than like-minds ~ not race, creed or religion.  Simply, we're in this together, are we going to pull together through a sense of what's at stake and what do I have to offer to achieve that OR NOT.

Ringo posits that "hispanic" men were loath to take direction from women and Black women, generally, were a problem for everybody.  Show up with your pants a-hangin' and a 'tude and you were marked as trouble.  Present with an appearance of willing to fall in with a non-elitist hierarchy designed for group-survival and you'll find a place regardless of skin color or ethnicity.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Alphabet Soup on June 26, 2011, 03:29:04 PM
Anyone see the zombie flick "28 Days Later"? Aside from the zombies, it was a study in what happens when SHTF and a small band of men who are used to military order try to apply that order to a crumbling situation when all up-line authority has been removed. The portrayal was no pretty.

Yep - I've seem them all. My favorite is "Panic in Year Zero" with Ray Milland. I saw it years ago and it has captured (and held) my imagination ever since. A cheezy look at a post-nuclear catastrophe was done in 1967 with "In_The_Year_2889". Again, the part that got my attention wasn't so much the irradiated mutants but the way the father character went about preparations to live post-apocalypse.

I watched "The Postman" again the other night. Plenty of American Cheese right there  ;) I also caught "A Boy and His Dog" which featured plenty of cheese but wasn't nearly as depressing as "Threads" (1984) or (God forbid) "The Road".
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Alphabet Soup on June 26, 2011, 03:45:18 PM
Anyone see the zombie flick "28 Days Later"? Aside from the zombies, it was a study in what happens when SHTF and a small band of men who are used to military order try to apply that order to a crumbling situation when all up-line authority has been removed. The portrayal was no pretty.

Seen it.  You're right; not pretty.

Read several disaster-scenario novels from different perspectives since then and John Ringo of "The Last Centurion" seems to have the best handle on who survives -- it IS a matter of community as far as "who is like us" and that doesn't apply to anything other than like-minds ~ not race, creed or religion.  Simply, we're in this together, are we going to pull together through a sense of what's at stake and what do I have to offer to achieve that OR NOT.

Ringo posits that "hispanic" men were loath to take direction from women and Black women, generally, were a problem for everybody.  Show up with your pants a-hangin' and a 'tude and you were marked as trouble.  Present with an appearance of willing to fall in with a non-elitist hierarchy designed for group-survival and you'll find a place regardless of skin color or ethnicity.

There were several excellent cinematic examinations of race, sex, and post-apocalypse survival in the fifties and sixties.

The first was "Five" (1951) - a movie that explored the human-dynamic of what we now refer to as Post-traumatic stress disorder (or PTSD).

The next was "The World The Flesh And The Devil" - 1959 starring Harry Belafonte before he outed himself as a disgusting commie bass-turd. A similar premise but one that played much more heavily on prejudice.

The other was "The Last Woman On Earth (1960) which was straight-up "Two is company - three is a crowd".

Imagine that - we've been anticipating TEOTWAWKI for a long time!
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: John Florida on June 26, 2011, 05:35:10 PM
This whole conversation needs to be turned over to what we as a comunity need to do together to ensure our as in all of us here survive. Even if it means leaving our home to meet at a predetermined place. IE if one of us has say 20 acres to use as a base for survival.

   One person can't work and defend that kind on space. But a group of like minded people can and do it well even if it comes to taking over neighboring land and expand enough to be able to hold it together.Then the trick become where is the base how do we get ther and what needs to be brought in on the way there.

 Did I explain it right??
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Libertas on June 27, 2011, 07:07:27 AM
I think I am identifying with 'Soup here, the "plan for the worst, hope for the best" mindset has been my mantra for quite some time.  Kinda goes along with assessing every place you go for possible SHTF scenarios and trying to identify threats/lines of retreat etc.  It's not always fun to do and sometimes it kicks in automatically if something seemingly innocent looks the slightest bit off.

Anyway, enough rambling, the main problems most people confront is first and foremost discussing this stuff with others.  Sometimes we have a hard time discussing this with immediate family members, but that is where it must start.  From there you have to branch out and start feeling out neighbors.  Once you figure out what their politics might be and their attitudes about the direction of the country you'll know if they are approachable or not on TEOTWAWKI.  Once you've expanded your second tier contacts the question is how to link cells without drawing the attention of authorities who may want to keep an eye on you.  I am still trying to think about this last one, and using SW radios and simple codes seems the most practical thusfar.

Having said that I have to admit my clan is only on step 1 1/2.  We have some second tier people identified and soon some will be approached to close the deal.  Problem is, if the fit hits the shan too fast where getting out of Dodge is hampered/impossible, most of our preparations could be toast.  Getting a good and early bead on things is going to be critical.  Last thing people with an egress plan want is to get log-jammed on roads clogged with crazed people without a clue as to where they are going trampling each other.  If "going it alone" or trapped I think it is just a matter of time before feral scum dispatches you and takes what booty they can scavenge off you.

Planning and logistics, it always comes down to planning and logistics.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Pandora on June 27, 2011, 09:00:31 AM
This whole conversation needs to be turned over to what we as a comunity need to do together to ensure our as in all of us here survive. Even if it means leaving our home to meet at a predetermined place. IE if one of us has say 20 acres to use as a base for survival.

   One person can't work and defend that kind on space. But a group of like minded people can and do it well even if it comes to taking over neighboring land and expand enough to be able to hold it together.Then the trick become where is the base how do we get ther and what needs to be brought in on the way there.

 Did I explain it right??

If I understand you, you're looking to form up a group here out of the unaffiliated, is that right?
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: John Florida on June 27, 2011, 10:19:17 AM
This whole conversation needs to be turned over to what we as a comunity need to do together to ensure our as in all of us here survive. Even if it means leaving our home to meet at a predetermined place. IE if one of us has say 20 acres to use as a base for survival.

   One person can't work and defend that kind on space. But a group of like minded people can and do it well even if it comes to taking over neighboring land and expand enough to be able to hold it together.Then the trick become where is the base how do we get ther and what needs to be brought in on the way there.

 Did I explain it right??

If I understand you, you're looking to form up a group here out of the unaffiliated, is that right?

 Correct!! It's an exercise in seeing if it could even happen. We as a group are spread all over the country so how would we make it happen,can we make it happen and why would we want to.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Libertas on June 28, 2011, 06:38:42 AM
Any available acreage for sale in the Appalachian hills?  A nice defensible hilltop reserve with available freshwater supply...

 ;)
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: charlesoakwood on June 28, 2011, 08:56:59 PM
For me the thing that I was thinking about is that WE are a comunity of people that are like minded and I would like to play a game where we try to figure out who and where would be the best place to be if we had to depend on no one else but us.

 As in who has the best set up where is it what would it take to get all of us there and with who. What each has to contribute and so on.


A Red Dawn scenario is difficult to imagine.  We are so integrated and dependent on specialized goods and services: fuel, supplies from TP to younameit, roads, food, the rule of law, food, then to have all of that not available.  The old list: food, clothing, and shelter.  Nobody mentioned shelter and most people have more than enough clothing to last until attritted or civilization is regained.

Appalachia: having no anecdotal knowledge of the area - questions of food supply; are there farms in that region that would support the extra personnel or (I saw Deliverance) would we be on the menu?  

Considering a group of 15 or so, being 15 relatively middle aged males with and without family - some very young and some pretty old, literate, and self disciplined.  The group is safer if it is nomadic however if it remains nomadic it will become predatory sooner rather than later.  On the other hand, as soon as the group establishes a territory it becomes vulnerable and the more established the more vulnerable.   This group may be an attractive crew to a small, *300 or so acre, truck farmer - dairy - or cattle.  It would be a mutually beneficial arrangement.  The farmer has a natural wisdom denied city folk. And he will have quality labor;  labor will have food and a civilized locus and the farmer's product remains viable for trade.    This is the natural beginnings of a small community and an opportunity for entrepreneurs.

*300 acres is a number plucked.  Each geographic region and each farm has an established number of people it will feed per acre.  A region that is more productive with less fertilizer and irrigation would be the better choice.


Agriculturist Resource Maps options at website (http://gardenserf.wordpress.com/2011/06/14/fortress-america-arms/)

Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: John Florida on June 28, 2011, 09:59:54 PM
 And I have a completely opposite opinion. Taking the group we have here and add to that our family member and we have youth and numbers and people that have a fair amount of trust between us which means stability within the group.

 As far as nomadic goesthat is what I would expect to happen people will split off and go on a scavenger hunt leaving behind their comfort zones and making themselves targets to other nomads.The people that have a defined area and work the area making it home food production and a defensive position because you know your turf and you have the advantage of being prepared for the long haul.

 Done right 25 acres would take care of a 100 people nothing fancy but it would only improve as the failed groups are forced to move on making more room for expansion for the organized willing to do the work. Housing isn't any more than Tents and then more permanent structures that will make themselves available in short order. Even if it means taking things apart and moving them piece by piece to where you need them to be.

 Farming/construction equipment will be around and learning to use it won't be a big deal. Learning how to make fuel would come in time. In the beginning it's a matter of scavenging and putting all in place.

 What were talking about won't happen over night which gives a couple of months to put it together and head to where it's going to be.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Pandora on June 28, 2011, 10:08:30 PM
And I have a completely opposite opinion. Taking the group we have here and add to that our family member and we have youth and numbers and people that have a fair amount of trust between us which means stability within the group.

 As far as nomadic goesthat is what I would expect to happen people will split off and go on a scavenger hunt leaving behind their comfort zones and making themselves targets to other nomads.The people that have a defined area and work the area making it home food production and a defensive position because you know your turf and you have the advantage of being prepared for the long haul.

 Done right 25 acres would take care of a 100 people nothing fancy but it would only improve as the failed groups are forced to move on making more room for expansion for the organized willing to do the work. Housing isn't any more than Tents and then more permanent structures that will make themselves available in short order. Even if it means taking things apart and moving them piece by piece to where you need them to be.

 Farming/construction equipment will be around and learning to use it won't be a big deal. Learning how to make fuel would come in time. In the beginning it's a matter of scavenging and putting all in place.

 What were talking about won't happen over night which gives a couple of months to put it together and head to where it's going to be.

Concur.

Nomads ...... tsk.  Good Lord.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Libertas on June 29, 2011, 06:48:22 AM
It's an either/or proposition unless you have such significant advantages in personnel (numbers, quality & background), equipment, weapons & ammunition, food and the ability to produce/acquire it, fuel, medicine, fresh water and land (defensible & tillable).  Either you are a scavenging horde raiding others for what you need and live with the nefarious status that entails and the challenges and dilemmas in finding new recruits to replenish routine losses or you hunker down and make a go of it hopefully on defensible ground with adequate shelter and access to fresh water and nearby tillable land.  But even with the latter there will be times were scavenging parties may be necessary and/or trading parties with other communities requiring both to risk traversing nomad lands.  If you hole up and your party is not that large, well, even the best fortification will fall or supplies will run out and force you out.  Likewise if your raiding party is too small, you could be sliced up pretty quick by larger packs of nomads.  (And nomads will always have to be on the move, risking entry in more and more hostile areas!) So a larger well protected well provisioned and well led community should stand a better chance of surviving than most other options one might have available.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: charlesoakwood on June 29, 2011, 09:20:41 AM
It's an either/or proposition unless you have such significant advantages in personnel (numbers, quality & background), equipment, weapons & ammunition, food and the ability to produce/acquire it, fuel, medicine, fresh water and land (defensible & tillable).  Either you are a scavenging horde raiding others for what you need and live with the nefarious status that entails and the challenges and dilemmas in finding new recruits to replenish routine losses or you hunker down and make a go of it hopefully on defensible ground with adequate shelter and access to fresh water and nearby tillable land.  But even with the latter there will be times were scavenging parties may be necessary and/or trading parties with other communities requiring both to risk traversing nomad lands.  If you hole up and your party is not that large, well, even the best fortification will fall or supplies will run out and force you out.  Likewise if your raiding party is too small, you could be sliced up pretty quick by larger packs of nomads.  (And nomads will always have to be on the move, risking entry in more and more hostile areas!) So a larger well protected well provisioned and well led community should stand a better chance of surviving than most other options one might have available.

 ::thumbsup::

Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Predator Don on June 29, 2011, 01:06:14 PM
OK.... In case of emergency....I'll invite all to Tennessee.....Plenty of places for a group to "get lost". And I'm comin clean because me and my brothers do have a plan.

If there were a catastrophic occurance, getting everyone to one central location could prove difficult to impossible. If things fell apart over time (like now..lol) it would be much easier. Friends and family have discussed. It's good to have people in your group with different skill sets. Different strengths AND like minded. Also, just owning some acreage, depending on location, will not suffice. Too close to "civilization" is not good, imho.

My brothers and I have taken a different tact. We all have some supplies, but admittedly, not enough to survive a prolonged (at least 6 months), I'll call it "downturn".....But we all have a "list" of things to gather. One has some land, no real roads... but a stocked lake and plenty of game. Our only other families are a is a Dr and dentist. Sister in law is a nurse. Brother an officer. Me, my brothers....including families, about 25 in all. Any larger and I believe there can be "breakdowns". We all hunt and fish...we all can shoot.

We believe if there is any disintergration in America there will be a few days/weeks window, a disbelief period, trying to gather it together. This is the time to act, get ur chit together and take a family "vacation". Know where you are gonna gather ur supplies. Frankly, if it is catastrophic in nature event, most likely will be a terrorist attack, dirty bomb, chemical or biological weapon. All bets could be off, depending on location attacked.

We have some redundencies in our lists. Like seed, filtration, fuel, weapons, first aid, few other things. None of us believe we could use a "home" as a base of operation. 6 month supplies. Believe it will take 6 months to sort out. 6 months additional to live off the land. After a year, if things are bad......
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Pandora on June 29, 2011, 01:29:48 PM
Sounds like a plan, Don.  Good skill-mix -- medical people especially.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Weisshaupt on June 29, 2011, 01:45:07 PM
This whole conversation needs to be turned over to what we as a comunity need to do together to ensure our as in all of us here survive. Even if it means leaving our home to meet at a predetermined place.

If Michelle and I were to start over again, we would probably buy land in the Black Hills of South Dakota ( one of our friends is prepping there) SD has no income Tax (fairly high property tax though),  is generally conservative politically, has a low population density, and allows viable farming and ranching even though it isn't prime farmland. Wyoming and Utah are other good candidates

1) Prime Farmland will likely be seized by the government, or you will be pushed out so they can sell it to forigners to help pay debts and cut deals. You want land good enough to  feed you and yours, but not good enough for external production.

2) Sharecropping will likely make more sense than owning. Large properties will almost always result in large tax bills. Agricultural rates are low now, but I wouldn't count on that being true as Food prices rise and the Govt wants their share of the take. Having land nearby  you can sharecrop/lease or otherwise appropriate gives you the benefits of ownership without a profile that the government will notice. As the govt becomes strapped for cash they will have fewer park rangers, game wardens etc, so being close to public lands will also give you additional resources. 2 acres adjoining 1000s of acres of vacant land is probably more useful than the 1000 acres. If things really get bad, you need to defend what is "yours" or it no longer is yours - and that is resources you could have used for other things. .

3) As most of the responses  to the GI post suggest, 15 won't be enough. You will need to form a real clan, 100 or more. Doing this pre-SHTF will be difficult if not impossible. You are better off moving to a rural  area where the likelyhood of "spontaneous"clan formation will occur. Look for a place where the people are proud of their identity as locals, where geography suggests a clan division, and values that are predominantly conservative. Obviously this area should also be tactically defensible. Once Identified you need to get local plates for your vehicles, go to the community picnics and events, and start making yourself known as"one of them" and not a "part-timer"

4) Identify the raw resources in that area and investigate what could be done to get at them. Could you get your own salt locally? How about Black Powder? Are there Natural Gas Wells that could be pressed into the service of the Clan? Get a permit to make Alcohol Fuel. Making distilled Spiris will ALWAYS be a useful skill.

5)  Arrange to provide your own water  Land with a Small Spring is good, but I am not sure about having ground water like a creek . Nomadic People will follow water upstream when traveling fo fishing and as a source. You don't need them wantering into your compound. Wells are good,  and probably better than a spring which may go dry in a bad year - wells are deep and can be drilled deeper - pretty much ensureing there is water in them, but you need o also ensure you have a means of pumping the water out.

6) Power may stay on during all of this, but if lines are stolen from a rural area, you  could be without power for weeks or months.  And of course, you are only going to see the prices going up. So a large solar array is required.That means you need unobstructed Solar exposure. There are VERY FEW places where wind is a reliable source, and it will cost more per KW than the equivalent Solar Array, while also putting up a nice tower that can be seen from a distance letting others know you have power. The Solar irradiience is better the furher South you go

7) Sewage and Trash. Make sure that there are places these things are going to go other than open pits. Local Dump. Spetic Tanks.  Beware that most septic systems will fail if overused. If youplan multiple families living in a compund or close to one another, you need separate systems.

8) Harsh Climate. You are probably looking for a place where the elements at least occasionaly  pose a danger to human survival for the unprepared. Its going to cut down on nomadic incursion and raiding. No one is going to Migrate North for the winter. a Tropic or temperate climate is great for growing food, but it also ensures that those without shelter will not die of cold during the night,and neither will any diseases growing in the sewage they leave.  

The biggest problem with organizing a group as spread out as this forum is  is the prep time. My buddy in the Black hills is 6 hours from his Teotwaki place. It takes a long time to get things ready. Way longer than you might think. Unless someone is unemployed and prepping is going to be full time, getting things ready will not take months. It will take years.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: charlesoakwood on June 29, 2011, 02:01:56 PM

Weisshaupt, that's very comprehensive. Two things popped into mind.

Quote
5)  Arrange to provide your own water ...
Wells are microbe sanitary.  The way they become unsanitary is the area proximal to the shaft exposed to contaminants or bacteria going down the shaft. 

Quote
8) Harsh Climate. ...[I'm a temperate type]...
 a Tropic or temperate climate is great for growing food, but it also ensures that those without shelter will not die of cold during the night,and neither will any diseases growing in the sewage they leave.

DDT or a variation, is it obtainable or easy to make?

If one has a location secured and ample water a simple septic system
would not be difficult or expensive.  A 55 gallon drum will last a couple of years even in bayou country.



Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: John Florida on June 29, 2011, 03:49:08 PM
OK.... In case of emergency....I'll invite all to Tennessee.....Plenty of places for a group to "get lost". And I'm comin clean because me and my brothers do have a plan.

If there were a catastrophic occurance, getting everyone to one central location could prove difficult to impossible. If things fell apart over time (like now..lol) it would be much easier. Friends and family have discussed. It's good to have people in your group with different skill sets. Different strengths AND like minded. Also, just owning some acreage, depending on location, will not suffice. Too close to "civilization" is not good, imho.

My brothers and I have taken a different tact. We all have some supplies, but admittedly, not enough to survive a prolonged (at least 6 months), I'll call it "downturn".....But we all have a "list" of things to gather. One has some land, no real roads... but a stocked lake and plenty of game. Our only other families are a is a Dr and dentist. Sister in law is a nurse. Brother an officer. Me, my brothers....including families, about 25 in all. Any larger and I believe there can be "breakdowns". We all hunt and fish...we all can shoot.

We believe if there is any disintergration in America there will be a few days/weeks window, a disbelief period, trying to gather it together. This is the time to act, get ur chit together and take a family "vacation". Know where you are gonna gather ur supplies. Frankly, if it is catastrophic in nature event, most likely will be a terrorist attack, dirty bomb, chemical or biological weapon. All bets could be off, depending on location attacked.

We have some redundencies in our lists. Like seed, filtration, fuel, weapons, first aid, few other things. None of us believe we could use a "home" as a base of operation. 6 month supplies. Believe it will take 6 months to sort out. 6 months additional to live off the land. After a year, if things are bad......


 Don't forget as other people were to join in that means they all have things to add to the mix as far as supplies and skill sets ans equipment that will all add to the place.


 There has to be a mix of ages no doubt but there is no such thing as a useless person even if it means guard duty.But having people that can build things and carry things is going to be important even if it comes to digging a well of  and out house.Repairing equipment and in Pandora's case a gunsmith.

 Equipment I believe will be around for the taking like construction and farming as I believe most people won't be prepared or able to hang on to it. To be honest with you one stolen truck of fuel will go a long way to saving lives.


  Having trucks of our own will be a huge advantage as for being able to carry and pull things.And having heavy trailer will be even more important than truck as in my case my truck is able to carry 1500 pounds no problem but it will pull 7500 pounds so pulling is the way to go.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Weisshaupt on June 29, 2011, 04:01:18 PM
DDT or a variation, is it obtainable or easy to make?

If one has a location secured and ample water a simple septic system
would not be difficult or expensive.  A 55 gallon drum will last a couple of years even in bayou country.

Instapundit I think posted the DDT process about a year ago.. it is possible to make with some standard Chemistry equipment, but I believe the process produces noxious fumes so a Hood is neededand its slightly dangerous. .  But even if you control the insects with DDT, you are simply going to be exposed to more diseases in a tropical climate, and the  feral nomads aren't going to bother with the 55 gallon drum septic. They are going to dump anywhere and everywhere they please. It will fester, get into the water supply, and because a tropical zone makes it easy to survive, there will be more nomads to contract and carry the disease. .  A harsh climate makes it difficult for the unprepared and shelterless to survive, so everyone who belongs to the community has a solid stake in a place somewhere, and vagrants and passer-through can't just hang out because "they like it"

If we really get to a Mad Max Clan world, you can bet that the bulk of world population will migrate to the tropics.  Historically the outsiders of a civilization have migrated to the mountains because its too much a pain to attack them, and the land isn't worth taking. If you can survive there, its built in advantage,.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: charlesoakwood on June 29, 2011, 04:55:32 PM

Aw gee's, long pants, leather shoes (no-flip flops), and and  ::falldownshocked:: a coat.  Methinks your right, oh well, sportsmansguide here I come.



Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: John Florida on June 29, 2011, 05:46:03 PM
DDT or a variation, is it obtainable or easy to make?

If one has a location secured and ample water a simple septic system
would not be difficult or expensive.  A 55 gallon drum will last a couple of years even in bayou country.

Instapundit I think posted the DDT process about a year ago.. it is possible to make with some standard Chemistry equipment, but I believe the process produces noxious fumes so a Hood is neededand its slightly dangerous. .  But even if you control the insects with DDT, you are simply going to be exposed to more diseases in a tropical climate, and the  feral nomads aren't going to bother with the 55 gallon drum septic. They are going to dump anywhere and everywhere they please. It will fester, get into the water supply, and because a tropical zone makes it easy to survive, there will be more nomads to contract and carry the disease. .  A harsh climate makes it difficult for the unprepared and shelterless to survive, so everyone who belongs to the community has a solid stake in a place somewhere, and vagrants and passer-through can't just hang out because "they like it"

If we really get to a Mad Max Clan world, you can bet that the bulk of world population will migrate to the tropics.  Historically the outsiders of a civilization have migrated to the mountains because its too much a pain to attack them, and the land isn't worth taking. If you can survive there, its built in advantage,.


 But in  a case like that you can only rely on the food you have. If the land isn't worth taking it's not worth keeping either. It has to produce or it's pointless.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Predator Don on June 29, 2011, 07:04:23 PM
OK.... In case of emergency....I'll invite all to Tennessee.....Plenty of places for a group to "get lost". And I'm comin clean because me and my brothers do have a plan.

If there were a catastrophic occurance, getting everyone to one central location could prove difficult to impossible. If things fell apart over time (like now..lol) it would be much easier. Friends and family have discussed. It's good to have people in your group with different skill sets. Different strengths AND like minded. Also, just owning some acreage, depending on location, will not suffice. Too close to "civilization" is not good, imho.

My brothers and I have taken a different tact. We all have some supplies, but admittedly, not enough to survive a prolonged (at least 6 months), I'll call it "downturn".....But we all have a "list" of things to gather. One has some land, no real roads... but a stocked lake and plenty of game. Our only other families are a is a Dr and dentist. Sister in law is a nurse. Brother an officer. Me, my brothers....including families, about 25 in all. Any larger and I believe there can be "breakdowns". We all hunt and fish...we all can shoot.

We believe if there is any disintergration in America there will be a few days/weeks window, a disbelief period, trying to gather it together. This is the time to act, get ur chit together and take a family "vacation". Know where you are gonna gather ur supplies. Frankly, if it is catastrophic in nature event, most likely will be a terrorist attack, dirty bomb, chemical or biological weapon. All bets could be off, depending on location attacked.

We have some redundencies in our lists. Like seed, filtration, fuel, weapons, first aid, few other things. None of us believe we could use a "home" as a base of operation. 6 month supplies. Believe it will take 6 months to sort out. 6 months additional to live off the land. After a year, if things are bad......


 Don't forget as other people were to join in that means they all have things to add to the mix as far as supplies and skill sets ans equipment that will all add to the place.


 There has to be a mix of ages no doubt but there is no such thing as a useless person even if it means guard duty.But having people that can build things and carry things is going to be important even if it comes to digging a well of  and out house.Repairing equipment and in Pandora's case a gunsmith.

 Equipment I believe will be around for the taking like construction and farming as I believe most people won't be prepared or able to hang on to it. To be honest with you one stolen truck of fuel will go a long way to saving lives.


  Having trucks of our own will be a huge advantage as for being able to carry and pull things.And having heavy trailer will be even more important than truck as in my case my truck is able to carry 1500 pounds no problem but it will pull 7500 pounds so pulling is the way to go.


I'm not sure there is a way to plan for every circumstance. I know my family and no one would be turned away, but you better be willing to work. No job will be too small, no task unimportant.

Planning for doomday senarios does suck, but we have taken the notion this is no different than planning for a house fire, flat tire or retirement. Have a plan. My hope is we never have to implement it.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Weisshaupt on June 29, 2011, 07:09:00 PM
But in  a case like that you can only rely on the food you have. If the land isn't worth taking it's not worth keeping either. It has to produce or it's pointless.

One person's trash is another's treasure.  The crucial difference is often knowledge. One person lacks the knowledge, skill or ambition to make a treasure, while the other has it. The idea is to exploit that phenomenon..

No one  will  bother confiscating small pieces of land,  land that has to be worked  by hand, land that requires special knowledge and/or crops, or land that produces low yields - because there is so much other land that is in big parcels, easily mechanized , and easily farmed.  Sure, eventually they might get round to you, but you pick the low hanging fruit first -because its easy, and gives you the most reward for the least amount of effort.

So if you figure out how to use land in a new or uncommon way, that requires more effort,or more skill , the cost of that knowledge becomes a barrier to others following you.. Quinoa was the staple crop of the Incas.. if we can adapt it to Colorado and our location, we will have knowledge that other don't have that will allow us to survive there more easily than people who lack that knowledge. Quinoa can only really be harvested well by hand - because the correct machinery to collect it without high losses hasn't been devised. The market for the grain is growing, but it is still quite small - and most is imported from South America where labor is cheap.  The point being: if my land is only good for growing Quinoa, but doing so is not cost effective for a large scale commercial operation, my land is unlikely to be attractive to others - even though it might adequately provide for me and mine. Hell, most people probably wouldn't be able to identify the crop walking by it.    

Likewise we are looking at raising Yaks - another high altitude animal, that isn't well known or regulated here in the United States. But it uses 1/4th the land of a cow, provides almosts as much meet, plus hair fiber, very rich milk (think cheese)  and can even be used as a pack animal. Fibers currently sell for about $16 an Oz, and the meat also fetches a very high price.  But there is a cost of knowledge to learning to raise them, and the attendant risk,  and only a small market for the product.

  While the government goes after the things everyone is doing, it is unlikely to go all out in the regulation  of the Yak breeders or Quinoa growers -- because there are too few, and their businesses are too small to make it worth while. Of course they are small niches because they are innovative and risky - the endeavors that may fail completely.  Of course in this scenario "success" means producing enough for a family of 4 - its not a commercial venture, and that difference can make my land a treasure to me, and trash to you. And that is entirely by design (provided I can pull it off - but that will take time. (We do have plans B & C in case it takes a while)  



Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Libertas on June 29, 2011, 07:41:15 PM
Good points all.

My clan could use a gunsmith and an engineer and maybe a chemist.  I hope we got time to put nephews into schools!

The other thing to consider about land is a safe distance from not just large urban centers, but also from potential industrial nightmares like nuclear plants, chemical plants etc that could foul your nest...depending upon proximity and prevailing winds...should the downtime be too prolonged or the plunge too fast.

I echo Weisshaupts concern over travel distances to your bugout destination.  6 hours is rough, and that's all travel, no pack time allowed.  No matter how well staged you are, it will take time to load stuff and given the severity of the crisis the available roads out of Dodge may clog pretty quick.  Best plan your loading time in tiers - If I have little time, take A items, 1/2 hour take B too, etc, and be prepared to abandon items.  Best to get ahead of the exodus if at all possible, but it may not always be possible.  Have a plan B for a wait/bolt later scenario if things are gridlocked.  Know all the potential paths between where you are and where you want to go, down to dirt roads, you cannot bank on satellites operating your GPS units if an EMP knocks 'em out.

I have a two hour travel time and add another hour if I have to get out of work and hit home, so as little as 4 hours lead time is my safety margin to skedaddle.  Anything less than that and I am pushing my luck.

If an apocalyptic event hits, time margins are moot, it will be full-blown chaos from the get-go.  In that survival situation you are stuck with what you have on you or what you might have squirreled away in your vehicle.  God help us all in that case!
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: John Florida on June 29, 2011, 08:40:18 PM
 Guys the chances of it going to hell in a minute are really remote unless you're talking about nuclear attack at which point all this is to nothing depending where it hits and even then there will be time to move assuming you have a plan.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Weisshaupt on June 29, 2011, 09:08:10 PM
I echo Weisshaupts concern over travel distances to your bugout destination.  6 hours is rough, and that's all travel, no pack time allowed. 

Actually you are better off just living in our bugout place if you things are going to deteriorate that fast.  The drive time is more of an issue when Prepping.  You are taking load after load of stuff, working on getting systems installed, and trying to get ready, and a drive time that is too long simply takes too much time if you have any sort of life. My buddy has a six hour dirve. I have two small children... 2 Hours and they ae clawing at the doors to get out of the car. Not to mention managing any construction etc that goes on by contractors etc. 

I dothink  John is right, and you will have plenty of time to pack and get outta dodge once you decide its time. I think there are some time sensitive scenarios that could arise, like a  dirty nuke, or a disease epidemic. What is more likely is the Argentina style civil unrest and even then there will be enough time to leave. .. provided your place already is prepped and ready for you. More and more I don't think we will see a sudden collapse reslting in a panic. The sheep are just plain too stupid to be startled.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: charlesoakwood on June 29, 2011, 09:15:37 PM

Suitcase nukes were all the rage in '01 and '02.  I suppose if they ever were functional they aren't anymore.

Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: charlesoakwood on June 29, 2011, 10:10:36 PM

Re: http://itsaboutliberty.com/index.php/topic,1999.msg22475.html#msg22475
A Request To All Current/Former NCOs And Other Small Unit Leaders

Here’s the first response to the wrsa

Dear Sir,

I am writing in response to your recent blog post. I have some fairly recent Infantry combat experience as an NCO leading a fire-team and then a rifle squad. I would rather not get any more specific as I would like to remain as anonymous as possible. I did some thinking and came up with a few ideas. These are fairly general, and would pretty much apply anywhere, with almost anyone in a group such as you described.

So here would be my “priorities of work”:

1) First, since we’ve already established an armed group, we need some place to, at a very minimum, assemble, preferably some place we could establish a safe house/base camp. Ideally, this would also be a place that we could conduct some training and zero weapons when we get to that point here in a bit. We want a location where we can remain “under the radar” as much as possible and that we all can reside in or close to. As soon as we figure out where our chosen location is, we go there and set up security. This is to prevent us getting nailed before we have even begun. Make a guard roster so that we have 2 people (minimum, preferably more) standing watch at all times for the next few hours while we sort everything else out. If they’re aren’t any other combat arms NCOs vets to help me, I’ll assign positions and sectors of fire for our security element and brief them on what they should do if they see something.

2) I would take an inventory of weapons, ammo, other items (such as night vision, commo, and NBC gear), spare parts, food, and medical supplies (I may have forgotten something here, but that’s most of it). We also want to start thinking about how to acquire more of these items, particularly ammo, food, and medical supplies.

3) With a 15 man group with the demographics you describe, I would then figure out who we have that are something resembling physically able. If we assume that 1/3 of the group would be disabled/injured/elderly/extremely young, or otherwise unable to shoot, move, and communicate, I would set that group aside as primarily a security group and designate them 3rd squad. If we assume that another 1/3 do not fall into that group, but are not physically fit enough to
shoot, move, and communicate, but could be with training to get them into shape, I would designate this group as another group (we’ll call them 2nd squad). This squad will be, for better or worse, our QRF(quick reaction force) squad. The last 1/3 of the group would be people who are something resembling physically fit, and thus “ready”(we’ll call them 1st squad).

4) Let’s assume that we have 3 vets in this group besides myself, one in each of the 3 groups. I would figure out who has what experience(i.e. who was combat arms, medical, etc). If we also make the assumption that 1 of these was an Infantryman (or Cav Scout) and one was a medic. I would put one vet in charge of each of the groups. I would get all of the vets and myself cross training immediately on any critical skills anyone is completely lacking. Once that has
been done to a reasonable level of competency, I would set them to work training everyone else in basic combat skills, first aid, etc. Like it or not, someone HAS to be in charge and with a group this size having “junior leaders” makes everything run better as each leader has a manageable work load.

5) At this point, we already have the group divided into 3 subgroups, and we know what weapons we have at our disposal. So now we are going to re-assign some weapons, if it is necessary. Basically we want to put the weapons that we have the most ammo (and preferably that we can also get more ammo for) for in 1st squad, since for the time being, they’ll be seeing the most action. We want to put the more odd ball caliber weapons in 3rd squad, as they are going to remain stationary, and shouldn’t be doing too much shooting. Obviously 2nd squad is going to end up with the weapons left over from 1st and 3rd squad. This probably isn’t going to be too popular a decision, if it is necessary, but explain to everyone why you’re doing it. Keep in mind that this situation is going to continually change as new weapons are captured from the various opposition groups and also from the unfortunate eventuality of us losing some gear.

This is all going to take place within the 1st 30 minutes hopefully, with the exception of training which will remain ongoing for the duration.

So after 30 mins we have
1) at least a really good idea of where we “set up shop”;
2) our group broken down into smaller sub-groups with our more and less capable individuals identified and assigned accordingly;
3) everybody has a weapon and ammunition;
4) we have something like a chain of command established; and
5) we have begun getting our people up to speed, training-wise.

Next we figure out who is short equipment, and distribute what we have so that everyone has at least some means of carrying ammo and water. Ideally, we also want to ensure that everyone has a basic combat first aid kit. Obviously the “high-speed, low-drag” kit goes to 1st squad as they’re going to be fighting shortly with what’s left going to 2nd squad as they’re next in line. This should take no longer than a few minutes.

Figure out who in our group has specific skills (i.e. mechanics, medical personnel, cooks, etc). We assign these people duties in line with their specialty. Everybody is good at something (or can be made to be), so everyone will have an extra duty, on top of their obvious duties as combatants. In a perfect world, we would have 3 medics (or something similar), one for each squad, but since this is probably not the case, we need to designate people for those
duties so whatever medical personel we do have can begin training them asap.

Someone in your group is what I call a “scrounger”. Basically this is the guy who knows where and how to get anything. We get him/her to start thinking about where to get more of the items that we will use (ammo, food, water, etc., along with other stuff that can be exchanged for what we need). Our first patrols will be aimed at locating these items, and preferably securing them.

Set up your defenses at this point. What you set up is going to vary greatly according to your AO. If you’re in a safe-house in an urban environment, you probably want to keep your defenses as low key as you can so that you don’t attract attention from whatever military forces are operating in your AO. If you’re out in BFE (Bum F**k Egypt, aka the boondocks) you can proably afford to set up better defenses.

Now we make sleeping arrangements, establish our latrines (whatever we might be using, be it an actual restroom or a slit-trench) and make our guard roster for the next 24 hours. We want to make sure that we have 360 security from here on out at all times. Establish a commo plan, as in the who, what, where, how, and why you can communicate with your security positions and patrols.

At this point we begin really training. Ideally we want 1st squad to be able to go on patrol in a few hours, in a day or two at the absolute most. Zeroing any un-zeroed weapons is a priority here. On the assumption that it is already quite violent (otherwise why would your group have come together in the first place?), you can “field zero” your weapons if you have
to.

We want to begin getting 2nd squad in shape in earnest at this point. So they are conducting training or doing PT during the day from here on out.

If we assume that for all intents and purposes there is no law and order at this point, it becomes worth the risk to go “out” to gather intel on our opposition, and make sure

1) they’re not massing in our back yard to wipe us out, and
2) barring that, to figure out what they’re up to.

We also want to see about securing more food, water, ammo, etc. Initially we want to avoid getting into a fight, and concentrate on acquiring needed items (those we can get without a
fight), and gathering intel. We also want to see if there are any other groups “on our side” in the area.

When 1st sqd finally does go out, 2nd sqd is in full kit, standing by to go help them if something happens. They can train and still be ready to go in less than 5 mins.

Once we have secured what we can without force, gotten something like an idea of what the opposition is up to, and figured out what else is going on, then we can begin real “combat operations”. By this point I would say a few weeks have gone by. Our group is proficient at most of what they should be at this point. 1st sqd has probably seen some light action by this point.

Since we want to remain alive and probably aren’t going to be able to get any more ammo or weapons without a fight, I think at this point we begin targeting the groups that represent a threat to us, the gangs or other criminal elements. If we stay completely defensive, we risk these gangs “ganging up” and destroying us, so we probably should take them out of the picture as soon as we can after they prove themselves to be hostile. Better yet, if we don’t have to take them all on at once and can take them out a couple at a time. This will probably win us some local support. We can also take whatever weapons, food, etc. that they might have had. Lastly, this will also prevent them from becoming part of any legitimate government/authority (stranger things have happened) that might come out of all this when some sense of civility returns, though this will still not be for quite some time at this point.

From here what I would do operationally would vary greatly from situation to situation. But this covers the basics of getting started.

I realize that a lot of this stuff is generalities, not specifics. However, this stuff needs to be done in almost any environment/terrain in any AO.

I think that about covers most of it. Let me know what you think.

And by the way – how many of you actually submitted your answers in the manner asked in the original post?

I chose to take answers that way as I wanted to force everyone into think through the drill on their own (rather than a comment ping-pong match), and thus improve the overall value of the lesson.

Thanks to Anon #1 for the response above, and to all for your participation.

Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Libertas on June 30, 2011, 06:54:41 AM
I echo Weisshaupts concern over travel distances to your bugout destination.  6 hours is rough, and that's all travel, no pack time allowed. 

Actually you are better off just living in our bugout place if you things are going to deteriorate that fast.  The drive time is more of an issue when Prepping.  You are taking load after load of stuff, working on getting systems installed, and trying to get ready, and a drive time that is too long simply takes too much time if you have any sort of life. My buddy has a six hour dirve. I have two small children... 2 Hours and they ae clawing at the doors to get out of the car. Not to mention managing any construction etc that goes on by contractors etc. 

I dothink  John is right, and you will have plenty of time to pack and get outta dodge once you decide its time. I think there are some time sensitive scenarios that could arise, like a  dirty nuke, or a disease epidemic. What is more likely is the Argentina style civil unrest and even then there will be enough time to leave. .. provided your place already is prepped and ready for you. More and more I don't think we will see a sudden collapse reslting in a panic. The sheep are just plain too stupid to be startled.

Place is 90% prepped, that last 10% can be a bitch though.  I would quibble a bit on the last point, they may be sheep and they may be stupid, but they can be startled...since my sister and I work in zombie-central my worries naturally gravitate toward successful egress should events get fugly (especially for my sister, being an RN she is also critical personnel, if need be I'll swing by and get her myself).  I think I'll keep my worries, they keep me focused.  I too am hoping that of something does happen, there is enough lead time to allow us to get out of Dodge, once home we are both in areas that are much better demographically and geographically to make it to our bolt hole.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Weisshaupt on June 30, 2011, 08:54:06 AM
Place is 90% prepped, that last 10% can be a bitch though.  I would quibble a bit on the last point, they may be sheep and they may be stupid, but they can be startled...

Wow, I wish I were that close. Of course part of my "prep" is acquiring knowledge that no one has and learning new skills.  If we do the Yak thing, that is pretty much going to require us to live up there. Next year both kids are in a Virtual School, and I am trying to get demoted to a position where I won't travel , and I can work from home - still worried about isolating the Kids from civilization as it were. Without them, we would probably have already bugged out.


As for startled sheep, I should clarify.  The Dollar dropping 20%  in a day will not startle them.  It will get their attention perhaps, like any other loud noise,  but give it a week they will go back to munching.  I don't think they have the brains to put a run on the banks ( BTW anyone try to make a large cash withdrawl lately? Had a couple of friends taking out $5K and the banks gave them a hard time about it.. since all of the money printing is electronic-- I don't think the cash supplies have kept up.  Instead of devaluing the money, the govt might just declare "all cash" - it will have the same effect.)


If there is a nuke, dirty nuke, disease epidemic etc, natural disaster they could  panic. They understand that it affects them directly - of course look at all of the idiots sitting on Bridges in Katrina.  The financial stuff they don't understand  - hell they think that refusing to raise the debt ceiling is "greed" on part of the GOP, because there is just a big pile of money sitting on the other side that the GOP won't let them have. Hunter-Gatherers strip the land of resources and move on, and that  is what Sheep are.  They won't understand the financial trouble till they go to the grocery store and they can't get their favorite gourmet coffee or find they are out of arugula.  By then, you will be long gone.
 
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Pandora on June 30, 2011, 08:58:54 AM
Quote
( BTW anyone try to make a large cash withdrawl lately? Had a couple of friends taking out $5K and the banks gave them a hard time about it.. since all of the money printing is electronic-- I don't think the cash supplies have kept up.  Instead of devaluing the money, the govt might just declare "all cash" - it will have the same effect.)

Is there a word missing there, as in "declare all cash" what?

In any case, if you're able, the thing to do is to put aside some cash right now a little at a time (while it's still worth something).
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Libertas on June 30, 2011, 10:31:25 AM
Quote
( BTW anyone try to make a large cash withdrawl lately? Had a couple of friends taking out $5K and the banks gave them a hard time about it.. since all of the money printing is electronic-- I don't think the cash supplies have kept up.  Instead of devaluing the money, the govt might just declare "all cash" - it will have the same effect.)

Is there a word missing there, as in "declare all cash" what?

In any case, if you're able, the thing to do is to put aside some cash right now a little at a time (while it's still worth something).

I do that...then I see a new pistol or something I just have to have...

 :)
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Predator Don on June 30, 2011, 10:32:51 AM
Quote
( BTW anyone try to make a large cash withdrawl lately? Had a couple of friends taking out $5K and the banks gave them a hard time about it.. since all of the money printing is electronic-- I don't think the cash supplies have kept up.  Instead of devaluing the money, the govt might just declare "all cash" - it will have the same effect.)

Is there a word missing there, as in "declare all cash" what?

In any case, if you're able, the thing to do is to put aside some cash right now a little at a time (while it's still worth something).


I keep some cash in a safe. It may become worthless, but there is always some idiot who will take it as payment.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Weisshaupt on June 30, 2011, 12:42:26 PM
Quote
( BTW anyone try to make a large cash withdrawl lately? Had a couple of friends taking out $5K and the banks gave them a hard time about it.. since all of the money printing is electronic-- I don't think the cash supplies have kept up.  Instead of devaluing the money, the govt might just declare "all cash" - it will have the same effect.)

Is there a word missing there, as in "declare all cash" what?

In any case, if you're able, the thing to do is to put aside some cash right now a little at a time (while it's still worth something).

The government could declare that all transactions must be in cash ( or if they leave the banks closed long enough, it will become a defacto edict)
There is probably a 10:1 ratio of printed currency for every dollar in the money supply ( or less. I can't find hard numbers on it)  Instead of offcially devlauing the currency the government can simply shut dwn all forms of electronic and effectively devalue it without actually printing new money.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Pandora on June 30, 2011, 01:22:16 PM
Quote
( BTW anyone try to make a large cash withdrawl lately? Had a couple of friends taking out $5K and the banks gave them a hard time about it.. since all of the money printing is electronic-- I don't think the cash supplies have kept up.  Instead of devaluing the money, the govt might just declare "all cash" - it will have the same effect.)

Is there a word missing there, as in "declare all cash" what?

In any case, if you're able, the thing to do is to put aside some cash right now a little at a time (while it's still worth something).

The government could declare that all transactions must be in cash ( or if they leave the banks closed long enough, it will become a defacto edict)
There is probably a 10:1 ratio of printed currency for every dollar in the money supply ( or less. I can't find hard numbers on it)  Instead of offcially devlauing the currency the government can simply shut dwn all forms of electronic and effectively devalue it without actually printing new money.

Ah, I see now.  Thanks for the clarification.

All the reason to start squirreling .... and spending .... while it's still worth something.

Not an electronics user as a rule; we access the ATM once a week, but can just as easily go into the bank with a check.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Libertas on June 30, 2011, 01:35:49 PM
Quote
( BTW anyone try to make a large cash withdrawl lately? Had a couple of friends taking out $5K and the banks gave them a hard time about it.. since all of the money printing is electronic-- I don't think the cash supplies have kept up.  Instead of devaluing the money, the govt might just declare "all cash" - it will have the same effect.)

Is there a word missing there, as in "declare all cash" what?

In any case, if you're able, the thing to do is to put aside some cash right now a little at a time (while it's still worth something).

The government could declare that all transactions must be in cash ( or if they leave the banks closed long enough, it will become a defacto edict)
There is probably a 10:1 ratio of printed currency for every dollar in the money supply ( or less. I can't find hard numbers on it)  Instead of offcially devlauing the currency the government can simply shut dwn all forms of electronic and effectively devalue it without actually printing new money.

If they do that they will create a panic, banks will have runs and be forced to shut down and nobody will be paying routine bills for utilities, loans or anything.  How long will businesses survive if their cash flow dries up?  Mass layoff's, food riots...

That is more than a devaluation, that is the mother of all reset buttons!  And the price inflator for food/fuel etc will be Weimar Republic Part II!  Welcome to hell!
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: charlesoakwood on June 30, 2011, 02:05:03 PM

This administration will continue the illusion as long as possible.  In 2012 if the GOP wins the illusion will only be slightly modified.

ETA: He wants it to crumble into his hands not on his head.

Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Weisshaupt on June 30, 2011, 04:51:43 PM
If they do that they will create a panic, banks will have runs and be forced to shut down and nobody will be paying routine bills for utilities, loans or anything.  How long will businesses survive if their cash flow dries up?  Mass layoff's, food riots...

The Banks will be closed before they announce it. Just like they did in Argentina. Call a little bank Holiday, pass a law seizing all of the 401K ad IRA accounts,  and then announce that a new Dollar = 100 Old Dollars (or whatever)   or just use the cash in circulation as your defacto revaluation

Everything gets renegotiated, no one gets paid, shelves are empty, and the Government sells us out to Foreign investors. Utilities are seized by the State, rolling services blackouts, food shortages, riots and violence.  I would suggest getting to the Teotwaki place when they call the bank holiday. The sheep will all still be calm them, after all the banks will reopen on Monday when everyone has "calmed down" - only the banks don't reopen till your account has been ransacked, and the devaluation accomplished

Having cash in the safe is NOT a stupid idea for use during the bank holiday period. But make sure you spend it before the announce the new currency. Also post here if you make a large withdrawl and the bank gives you a hard time, I would like to know if its happening elsewhere. I really don't think most of the  banks have more than 10-20K on hand in any given branch
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Libertas on June 30, 2011, 06:19:22 PM
How fast can they turn off the ATM's?

Government can't keep a secret worth sh*t either, and insider market moves could indicate pending action.  There could be a phony war in the days leading up to such a dastardly sneak-attack, so wise people will pull their funds out right away and buy nonperishable necessities before the value and shelves go poof!
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Delnorin on November 24, 2011, 09:28:15 PM
I'd like to see a scenario that involves a gradual decay of civilization, which is more along the lines of what I'm expecting.

You are witnessing it right now.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Delnorin on November 24, 2011, 09:29:30 PM
There's a new series out called Falling Skies  which is a sort of survival after an alien attack kind of thing but I did see it lat night for the first time and it did make interesting points on survival then no comand and control exists.

I found this show very good.. much enjoyed.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: ChrstnHsbndFthr on March 18, 2013, 07:12:34 PM
wow
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: John Florida on March 18, 2013, 07:23:42 PM
wow

   Wow what?Did I miss something.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: ChrstnHsbndFthr on March 18, 2013, 07:25:09 PM
No, I did. Just realized how old this thread is. Sorry. Hope the moderators forgive my idiocy. YOu too, John.
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: John Florida on March 18, 2013, 07:29:08 PM
No, I did. Just realized how old this thread is. Sorry. Hope the moderators forgive my idiocy. YOu too, John.

   The mods a good with stupidity that's why they keep me around to prove it,
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: Pandora on March 18, 2013, 07:37:36 PM
No, I did. Just realized how old this thread is. Sorry. Hope the moderators forgive my idiocy. YOu too, John.

   The mods a good with stupidity that's why they keep me around to prove it,

LOL.   ::kissface::
Title: Re: Thoughts from GI's
Post by: John Florida on March 18, 2013, 09:25:02 PM
No, I did. Just realized how old this thread is. Sorry. Hope the moderators forgive my idiocy. YOu too, John.

   The mods a good with stupidity that's why they keep me around to prove it,

LOL.   ::kissface::

 ::curtsy4::