Author Topic: It started down hill when  (Read 3355 times)

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Offline whimsicalmamapig

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It started down hill when
« on: September 21, 2014, 11:49:21 AM »
As the confluence of baseball and football happens each fall it seemed to me that as this nation turned away from baseball as its national passtime and glommed onto football we also turned away from the independent, self-reliant individual citizen society to one that relies on transient allegiances of bullies and thugs who demand respect through the decibel level of their rants.

We turned from a nation of people who appreciated the slow strategy of 9 individuals working a game requiring finesse and psychology to mobs of shouting "fans" like those of the ancient roman Colosseum urging brute force, hurtful clashes and participants who, in some instances, require only the ability of brick walls to fulfill their position.

True, athletes are just humans and baseball has its share of miscreants, but that is not the issue. We, as a nation, no longer create an abundance of thinking citizens who are able to patiently watch a baseball game and instead are creating mobs who only want the instance cheap thrill of brute force. This is true of our entertainment industry, our cuisine, our politics.

We are no longer a nation of subtle thinkers but are now mobs of self-absorbed shallow animals who care only for the moment and our choice of a national pastime represents that.
Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
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Offline AlanS

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Re: It started down hill when
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2014, 06:10:10 PM »
I gave up on pro sports years ago due to the thugness. Now it's so prevelant in college sports, I'm losing interest there, too.

The only thing I have to look forward to is the grandson is 4 and next year he starts t-ball. It just doesn't get any better than watching kids play sports for fun.

I sure miss the days when my sons played ball.
"Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem."

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Offline Dan

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Re: It started down hill when
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2014, 08:29:50 PM »
Mama that was an excellent post on an astute observation.
“The American people will never knowingly adopt socialism. But, under the name of ‘liberalism’, they will adopt every fragment of the socialist program, until one day America will be a socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.” - Norman Thomas, U.S. Socialist

Offline trapeze

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Re: It started down hill when
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2014, 01:02:10 AM »
I used to follow baseball very closely in my teenage years. I used to go to see the Houston Astros two or three times a month. It was great. Indoor air-conditioned baseball and even good seats were reasonably priced.

Then came the first of the million dollar contracts and it was the Astros that led the way by signing Nolan Ryan. (At the time I thought that was a crazy amount of money but Nolan actually earned it by becoming the king of no hitters) Then came other crazier contracts and finally the baseball strikes.

The strikes are what did it for me. I sort of weathered the first one but after it happened again I had had enough and stopped following baseball altogether. I don't even bother tuning in for the playoffs or the World Series anymore. And it hasn't exactly gotten better since the strikes, either. Professional baseball suffers from most of the same ills that the NFL has...thugishness and steroids and all other manner of bad behavior are right in there.

And, no, I'm not a NFL person these days either. When the Houston Oilers were sold to Nashville I more or less gave up on football, too.

Instead I drifted over to NASCAR. I like NASCAR a lot and for a lot of different reasons. (It helps to actually go to a race or two) One of the things that blows me away about NASCAR is it is still jam packed full of patriotism. Lots and lots of flag waving and they are very nice to soldiers who come to the races. Plus...they pray en masse before the race starts and they seem to mean it. I'm guessing that zipping around in traffic at 200mph will give you some perspective in the life and death department. Anyone can make it to the top as a driver but it takes serious work and talent. And it takes serious work and talent to stay there. The teams with the most money usually win but occasionally a low level driver will pull it off. Great sport. I like it much more than baseball or football. But it's an acquired taste for sure.
In a doomsday scenario, hippies will be among the first casualties. So not everything about doomsday will be bad.

Offline Libertas

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Re: It started down hill when
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2014, 06:53:41 AM »
I used to follow baseball very closely in my teenage years. I used to go to see the Houston Astros two or three times a month. It was great. Indoor air-conditioned baseball and even good seats were reasonably priced.

Then came the first of the million dollar contracts and it was the Astros that led the way by signing Nolan Ryan. (At the time I thought that was a crazy amount of money but Nolan actually earned it by becoming the king of no hitters) Then came other crazier contracts and finally the baseball strikes.

The strikes are what did it for me. I sort of weathered the first one but after it happened again I had had enough and stopped following baseball altogether. I don't even bother tuning in for the playoffs or the World Series anymore. And it hasn't exactly gotten better since the strikes, either. Professional baseball suffers from most of the same ills that the NFL has...thugishness and steroids and all other manner of bad behavior are right in there.

And, no, I'm not a NFL person these days either. When the Houston Oilers were sold to Nashville I more or less gave up on football, too.

Instead I drifted over to NASCAR. I like NASCAR a lot and for a lot of different reasons. (It helps to actually go to a race or two) One of the things that blows me away about NASCAR is it is still jam packed full of patriotism. Lots and lots of flag waving and they are very nice to soldiers who come to the races. Plus...they pray en masse before the race starts and they seem to mean it. I'm guessing that zipping around in traffic at 200mph will give you some perspective in the life and death department. Anyone can make it to the top as a driver but it takes serious work and talent. And it takes serious work and talent to stay there. The teams with the most money usually win but occasionally a low level driver will pull it off. Great sport. I like it much more than baseball or football. But it's an acquired taste for sure.

I agree.  Curt Flood and free agency introduced money into a game that was played more for pride and enjoyment than for personal gain and fame.  I loved the 60's and early 70's growing up watching Joe Kapp, Ted Brown, Fran Tarkenton, Paul Krause and the Purple People Eaters...and my father was always scoring choice tickets to see the Twins, guys like Harmon Killebrew, Tony Oliva, Rod Carew et al...and going to Gopher games at old Memorial Stadium and watching Tony Dungy play, that was a blast.  But for the past couple decades or so it just...as Whims says gone "down hill"...more than thugish behavior, just greed, selfishness, self-promoting crap...and the can't-keep-their-noses-clean BS...I guess when people say "nothing good happens after midnight" they look at it as a good thing.  But it all started with free agency, and that is what killed most small market teams too and condemned most to almost/never-ran's.  I watch Vikings games on TV with my father, he likes that, if he said "let's watch/do something else" we'd be doing something else, I am just not too invested in it, I am more interested in how my weekly picks are going and if I won a stack of cash or not, beyond that I could care less.  I still like the college games, and apart from the high-profile/always-ranked teams that draw the top recruits, many of whom are arrogant self-promoting drama queens, there is still some good team play and coaches/teams that do it right, still, not totally invested but I like watching college over pro that's for sure.  And I like hockey, maybe because hockey is indemic in this state, maybe because in general hockey players are smarter, and certainly less hockey players come from do hood so there is less thugishness, but there are Canadians (sorry my Canadian friends but be honest, some in the juniors, college & pro's are not there for their skating and puck-handling skills!).  And there too I like college better than pro's.

As for NASCAR, I like NASCAR but I have two really huge quibbles with them...first, the regulate more the Fedcoats!  There isn't anything they don't mandate, inspect or pontificate on!  I miss the old days with variations in car models and feisty drivers.  Second, they don't do anything but run as fast as they can from their moonshine-running redneck heritage and I am like wtf?!  They're trying to diversify their image instead of celebrating it, so slowly but surely they'll be fully taken over by the stupids.  Some of the drivers are even   ::speechless::  libiots!

Nothing is perfect any more, maybe it never was or ever can be, but sports sure was more manly and more close to perfect in days long past...
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: It started down hill when
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2014, 07:57:45 AM »
I used to be a big fan of both MLB and NFL. Huge fan. I became disillusioned with both a long time ago; Football first, and eventually baseball too.

They were always businesses, but they were just as much games. Now giant contracts, huge corporate sponsorships, huge endorsement contracts, exorbitant seat licensing fees just to have the "right" to buy tickets, little boys in men's bodies, and corporate welfare in the form of taxpayer-funded stadiums for multi-millionaires and billionaires, have all conspired to ruin both leagues for me.

Right now, almost my entire sports consumption is Mixed Martial Arts, the UFC being the premier organization. There is nothing more honest; no competition more pure; than two people directly testing their skill in the Octagon (the occasional PED cheater notwithstanding.)

The sport has evolved rapidly under the Zuffa/UFC banner, from an organization trying to shake the reputation of a seedy, sanctioned street-brawl in a cage, to the best high-level martial artists in the world, from across the spectrum of martial arts styles, competing in an attempt to finish the fight before the final buzzer so that the decision of the judges is not necessary.

Even since I started watching almost a decade ago, the old-style UFC brawlers have dwindled to nil. With a few exceptions (mostly in the higher weight classes), badass fist-fighters who just bring toughness, heart, and brutality, cannot survive in today's UFC. If you're not a high-level specialist in a martial art - or increasingly, if you're not a young guy who has been studying a variety of martial arts since childhood - you cannot break ground in the UFC. The competition is too extreme for someone to be successful with a street-fighter mentality. With few exceptions, if the great UFC fighters of just a few years ago at their prime could be transported forward in time just a few years, they could not compete with today's best fighters. The sport has evolved that much, that quickly.

If you ever wondered what it would look like if two "Bruce Lees" fought for real, it doesn't look like a Bruce Lee movie in any way, shape, manner, or form. It looks like the UFC.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 08:21:40 AM by IronDioPriest »
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Online ToddF

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Re: It started down hill when
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2014, 08:06:30 AM »
Baseball started with the strikes, and finished itself for me with the Sosa vs. McGuire home run race, with both of them cheating, and both records standing despite such.  The stat nerd in me could suffer no more.

Football?  It started with the Vikings threats to move if they didn't receive tax money and finished with all the nancy boy crap of the past 10 years or so. 

Offline AmericanPatriot

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Re: It started down hill when
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2014, 09:34:45 AM »
When I was a kid in the 50s and early 60s baseball was king.
The NFL was pre-Rozell.

We played baseball every day.
No formal little league out in the country and no adult supervision.

Every kid wanted to play like Roberto Clemente (The Great One).
In school they played the 1960 World Series over the intercom.
Baseball was rarely televised then.
My dad and I would sit and listen on the radio.
The announcers could put you there.
Today, they are all vanilla.

I used to make sure I was around the TV when the Steelers were on.
4 Super Bowls in the 70s.
For a few years now, I could care less and haven't watched a complete game in a few years.

It's easy to be a Pirates fan again as they have started to contend after 20 years of being awful.
But, it's a cursory interest.

I like college football.

Hockey?
I don't know if the puck is blown or stuffed.
All I can figure there aren't many rules.

Nascar has no attraction to me.

Offline whimsicalmamapig

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Re: It started down hill when
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2014, 01:39:50 PM »
I have had a tragic relationship with sports throughout my life,

I was in 5th grade, living outside Pittsburgh when Bill Mazeroski did in the yankees for the world series, it has been a tragic struggle to stay loyal all this time.

I lived 20 years in western NY and developed a sort of sado-masochistic realtionship with the Bills culminating in those 4 awfull superbowls (I have not be able to watch a superbowl since then)

I developed a love of NASCAR in the late 80's culminating in my hero Alan Kulwicki, (the last true owner/operator to win a championship) winning in 92 and being killed within a year in a terrible helicopter crash, not even fulfilling his victory year as champion. Since that point, most racers are in "teams" with uber funding and it is all so corporate now it isn't even fun anymore.

At this point, I think sports that are still live are just occupying all the "free" time americans have since they no longer participate in much community projects, volunteerism or personal life improvement opportunities. The remainder of the young are now transferring their affiliations to video game virtual reality escapism.

I watch no sports at this time since most of the players are reprehensible, much as most entertainers
« Last Edit: September 22, 2014, 02:55:37 PM by whimsicalmamapig »
Democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson

Offline trapeze

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Re: It started down hill when
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2014, 02:54:53 PM »
I appreciate the regulations (or rules) within NASCAR because it prevents a mega rich team/owner from simply buying a victory. The big teams usually win most of the time but because of the rules it is not guaranteed. Plus the rules are there for the safety of the drivers and spectators.

As for hiding from its past...I remember one of the first IMAX films that I ever saw and it was about 2004 era. Narrated by Keifer Sutherland, it started with 100% disclosure that NASCAR's roots were in bootlegging. So...I don't exactly see that as hiding anything. What they don't tolerate is cheating and while it may be attempted it is pretty tough to get away with since the cars are thoroughly inspected before and after the races. I like that, too.

Anyway...I also like UFC fighting although I don't watch it much because mrs. trapeze is bored by it.
In a doomsday scenario, hippies will be among the first casualties. So not everything about doomsday will be bad.

Offline AmericanPatriot

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Re: It started down hill when
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2014, 02:59:18 PM »
Quote
I lived 20 years in western NY and developed a sort of sado-masochistic realtionship with the Bills culminating in those 4 awfull superbowls

Jimmy Kelly is a local boy to me and played at the same high school.
I played with his oldest brother, Pat.

A little story about him when he was, maybe, 5.

Our field was about 1/4 mile from the school and we dressed for practice at the school.
We didn't wear our spikes when we walked to the field for practice.

Jimmy was always at the field watching practices.

After practice, he would always ask if he could carry my helmet and spikes.

I'm sure he wouldn't remember or admit it if he did.
They were a good family. 6 boys and well behaved.
Their dad kept them in line.
All very good athletes.
The oldest one made the final cut for the Baltimore Colts as a linebacker.
There were twins just ahead of Jimmy who played for a state championship in basketball

Offline Glock32

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Re: It started down hill when
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2014, 03:00:25 PM »
I enjoyed playing baseball, but watching it is a snoozefest for me.  I like football, or more accurately tried to like it in spite of the incessant effort to convert it into a messaging vehicle for Political Correctness. At this point I am barely able to sustain any interest in it. The moral grandstanding over the whole "domestic violence" is probably the final nail. It's not the issue of domestic violence, it's the media-driven crusade that irritates me.  I had to listen to the insufferable Bob Costas agree with himself on national TV last night (as I watched the Panthers continue their proud tradition of embarrassing themselves on national TV) saying the NFL needed to lead the rest of us in its response, blah blah blah, the commissioner needs to place himself on suspension and dock his own pay, blah blah blah.

Between my team laying perennial eggs and the self-congratulatory sports media, I've had about enough. And we haven't even gotten to Pink October yet.
"The Fourth Estate is less honorable than the First Profession."

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Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: It started down hill when
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2014, 03:04:02 PM »
Anyway...I also like UFC fighting although I don't watch it much because mrs. trapeze is bored by it.

I am very grateful that my wife not only tolerates UFC, but loves to watch it.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline trapeze

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Re: It started down hill when
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2014, 09:57:10 PM »
Anyway...I also like UFC fighting although I don't watch it much because mrs. trapeze is bored by it.

I am very grateful that my wife not only tolerates UFC, but loves to watch it.

You are blessed, indeed.
In a doomsday scenario, hippies will be among the first casualties. So not everything about doomsday will be bad.

Offline Libertas

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Re: It started down hill when
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2014, 06:50:12 AM »
I appreciate the regulations (or rules) within NASCAR because it prevents a mega rich team/owner from simply buying a victory. The big teams usually win most of the time but because of the rules it is not guaranteed. Plus the rules are there for the safety of the drivers and spectators.

As for hiding from its past...I remember one of the first IMAX films that I ever saw and it was about 2004 era. Narrated by Keifer Sutherland, it started with 100% disclosure that NASCAR's roots were in bootlegging. So...I don't exactly see that as hiding anything. What they don't tolerate is cheating and while it may be attempted it is pretty tough to get away with since the cars are thoroughly inspected before and after the races. I like that, too.

Anyway...I also like UFC fighting although I don't watch it much because mrs. trapeze is bored by it.

Well, sure...it's a film!  When on a broadcast do they ever talk about thier roots.  All we here is all the fluff pieces and you can never hear an interview with a driver without hearing a plug for several companies...irritates the stuff out of me.  But yes going ot the races is way better than watching TV.  The sound and smell, the vibrations rattling your body as they roar past...yeah, it's primal.  I went to the first Fontana races in I believe it was 2007, wandering through the vendors looking for a hat to buy...I almost bought a Tony Stewart hat, but wanted a local guy, closest one is Matt Kenseth (Cambridge, WI), #17 Ford, black hat with yellow number and flames, yeah, that'll do.  He won both races that weekend, I picked good.  Had a blast lirting with the Skoal gals too, they were...nice.  Got to see an old fart parachute right into the fence in front of us in turn 1.  Races were fun, company was good and the beer flowed like water.
 :D

Now he drives #20, which IIRC is Stewarts old HomeDepot number...

It's alll kittywumpus now, and Dale Jr is on what, his third number now?

Nice thing about the older days of NASCAR was people stuck with their numbers and it was a little more rough and tumble.

And the names, many memorable ones, but can anything top Dick Trickle?  Used to see him at the old Fairgrounds track.

I'm gettin' old...

Still, get to a race, screw TV, you have to be at the track.  Like to hit the local track here at Elko once in a while.  Being there is way better.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline Libertas

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Re: It started down hill when
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2014, 06:51:39 AM »
I enjoyed playing baseball, but watching it is a snoozefest for me.  I like football, or more accurately tried to like it in spite of the incessant effort to convert it into a messaging vehicle for Political Correctness. At this point I am barely able to sustain any interest in it. The moral grandstanding over the whole "domestic violence" is probably the final nail. It's not the issue of domestic violence, it's the media-driven crusade that irritates me.  I had to listen to the insufferable Bob Costas agree with himself on national TV last night (as I watched the Panthers continue their proud tradition of embarrassing themselves on national TV) saying the NFL needed to lead the rest of us in its response, blah blah blah, the commissioner needs to place himself on suspension and dock his own pay, blah blah blah.

Between my team laying perennial eggs and the self-congratulatory sports media, I've had about enough. And we haven't even gotten to Pink October yet.

 ::pullhair::

TV bites.  If you have to watch a game, turn the sound down, or off!
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline AmericanPatriot

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Re: It started down hill when
« Reply #16 on: September 23, 2014, 09:04:13 AM »
If you're not playing, radio was a great way to do baseball.
At least in the old days when there were real announcers.
Now, they're all vanilla.

Offline IronDioPriest

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Re: It started down hill when
« Reply #17 on: September 23, 2014, 09:39:20 AM »
If you're not playing, radio was a great way to do baseball.
At least in the old days when there were real announcers.
Now, they're all vanilla.

Fond memories of a time long past. I can remember like it was yesterday, as a small boy working alongside my dad in his basement workshop, the old AM radio playing the Twins game - Vikings game on Sundays. I can still hear the unique twangy pronounciation of the announcers as they sold their enthusiasm through the AM crackle and the roar of the crowd.

Guys nowadays are a shadow of that era.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline AmericanPatriot

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Re: It started down hill when
« Reply #18 on: September 23, 2014, 10:03:12 AM »
We had some great colorful announcers here in Pittsburgh.
Bob Prince was the baseball announcer and Myron Cope for football.

Those guys were just fun to listen to and, sometimes, it was just incidental there was a game

Offline Libertas

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Re: It started down hill when
« Reply #19 on: September 23, 2014, 11:15:52 AM »
Ray Scott, Halsey Hall...Ray Christensen wasn't bad.  For hockey Al Shaver, his on Wally does Gopher hockey and is OK.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.