Author Topic: What if God is Liberal?  (Read 1732 times)

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Online Weisshaupt

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Re: What if God is Liberal?
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2014, 12:11:39 PM »

OTOH, have you ever known a person whom you do not care for - to the point of not wanting to be in the same room with them…OR…not attending an event (small venue, not a football stadium) if they’re going to be there? You’ve not taken the time to get to know them & as a result, want nothing to do with them & who you think you know they are. Think of Hell as a place where you don’t have to spend time with the creator who’s ways, thoughts, methods you find so distasteful.

Only you know, you get to be tortured in addition to just not being with the creator.  The threat is of experiencing brutal  pain  for the rest of eternity if you don't choose to go to the stadium.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 01:10:39 PM by Weisshaupt »

Offline Pablo de Fleurs

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Re: What if God is Liberal?
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2014, 01:54:09 PM »

OTOH, have you ever known a person whom you do not care for - to the point of not wanting to be in the same room with them…OR…not attending an event (small venue, not a football stadium) if they’re going to be there? You’ve not taken the time to get to know them & as a result, want nothing to do with them & who you think you know they are. Think of Hell as a place where you don’t have to spend time with the creator who’s ways, thoughts, methods you find so distasteful.

Only you know, you get to be tortured in addition to just not being with the creator.  The threat is of experiencing brutal  pain  for the rest of eternity if you don't choose to go to the stadium.

Yeah...but at least you know ahead of time...& can plan/choose accordingly. That's a plus.

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Ah, that will be the glory!

To dwell below, with those we know…

…well…that’s a different story.
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Online Weisshaupt

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Re: What if God is Liberal?
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2014, 02:08:59 PM »

Yeah...but at least you know ahead of time...& can plan/choose accordingly. That's a plus.

I know ahead of time what the IRS will do if I disobey them as well.
Honest people don't need to make threats. The Persuasion of truth and beauty should be enough.
So why is God making threats like the common thugs at the IRS?

My conclusion is that he doesn't.. but men attempting to grow their churches did.



Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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Re: What if God is Liberal?
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2014, 11:14:16 PM »
I do not think of this situation as God forcing a situation. The situation merely exists. We know that God is. And because He is, the choice exists as a natural consequence. He does not force our service, but there are natural consequences to avoiding His service, just as the sun comes up in the morning following night.
“My mission today is to go forth and tell people about why I follow Christ and also what the Bible teaches, and part of that teaching is that women and men are meant to be together.

“However, I would never treat anyone with disrespect just because they are different from me. We are all created by the Almighty and like Him, I love all of humanity. We would all be better off if we loved God and loved each other.”
Phil Robertson an elder in the church of Christ

Online Weisshaupt

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Re: What if God is Liberal?
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2014, 12:07:12 AM »
I do not think of this situation as God forcing a situation. The situation merely exists. We know that God is. And because He is, the choice exists as a natural consequence. He does not force our service, but there are natural consequences to avoiding His service, just as the sun comes up in the morning following night.

But the Sun comes up each morning because God set it up that way, just as he set up eternal damnation for those who choose wrong. God is the author of nature. Things Just are, because he willed them (or allowed them) to become so.  The situation must suit him, or it wouldn't exist. What would "god forcing a situation" look like? The situation would simply alter to become as natural and as normal  as the sun rising each morning. It would just Be.


Offline Libertas

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Re: What if God is Liberal?
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2014, 06:09:31 AM »

Yeah...but at least you know ahead of time...& can plan/choose accordingly. That's a plus.

I know ahead of time what the IRS will do if I disobey them as well.
Honest people don't need to make threats. The Persuasion of truth and beauty should be enough.
So why is God making threats like the common thugs at the IRS?

My conclusion is that he doesn't.. but men attempting to grow their churches did.

I think this is closer to the mark than many might admit...I think there is a generally agreed opinion that there is right and wrong and rewards and punishments, but it tends to hold up to intellectual scruitny as well has the history of mankind to see where men could embellish something as a means of influence and control...but to what extent I am not certain.

Certainly man is not immune to mischief...like the song says...we can be "on the wrong side of Heaven, and the righteous side of Hell".
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Online Weisshaupt

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Re: What if God is Liberal?
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2014, 10:17:03 AM »
[it tends to hold up to intellectual scruitny as well has the history of mankind to see where men could embellish something as a means of influence and control...but to what extent I am not certain.

Nor is anyone.  I just suspect the Bible as currently complied is not 100% the word of God because of mankind's "embellishment"  -  otherwise God is threatening eternal active torture punishment for a decision made in time/space with imperfect knowledge, and that doesn't make sense to me.. If we have free will and God wants us to have free will, a threat of eternal torture takes that free will away - just as the threat of the IRS using  fines, property confiscation, jail-time ( and death if you resist)  means taxes aren't Voluntary.  A Voluntary decisions can only be made when the party making the decision isn't being threatened with punishment.  If this is God's definition of "Free will"  than he is a Harry Reid type Democrat and is probably not worthy of worship.




Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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Re: What if God is Liberal?
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2014, 12:10:43 PM »
There is actually very little in the bible about our idea of Hell, like seen in cartoons and such. Often the words translated as Hell are better translated death or the grave.   Some of it is certainly metaphorical, designed to give a picture of a permanent punishment, which I do picture as an exile from the presence of God. That would be a painful situation since in Him we live and move and have our being.

There is far more focus on the good, on the salvation, on the hope, but, it is true one must know the penalty to understand the greatness of the forgiveness.
“My mission today is to go forth and tell people about why I follow Christ and also what the Bible teaches, and part of that teaching is that women and men are meant to be together.

“However, I would never treat anyone with disrespect just because they are different from me. We are all created by the Almighty and like Him, I love all of humanity. We would all be better off if we loved God and loved each other.”
Phil Robertson an elder in the church of Christ

Online Weisshaupt

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Re: What if God is Liberal?
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2014, 05:37:43 PM »
There is actually very little in the bible about our idea of Hell, like seen in cartoons and such.
There is far more focus on the good, on the salvation, on the hope, but, it is true one must know the penalty to understand the greatness of the forgiveness.

More than a few.
http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Bible-Verses-About-Hell/

How does one know when its metaphorical vs. literal?
And just because the focus isn't on the punishment, does that mean there isn't a punishment?
How many times does Vinnie really need to threaten to break your legs.
If this is the free will God offers, then it isn't free will at all.
 

Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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Re: What if God is Liberal?
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2014, 03:44:45 AM »
Out of those verses, most talk about the grave, sheol, death, or destruction, or judgment, but not the traditional view of hell. At most, 17 verses from the entire bible (31,000+) can be construed that way. Clearly the emphasis in the bible is on salvation and hope. Not threat of punishment.

it IS free will. There ARE consequences to bad choices. Life demonstrates that. I taught my children not to burn themselves on the stove. I never felt I threatened them with the stove. I was never going to hold their hand to the burner, nor pour a pot of boiling liquid upon them, but I did teach them that it was a possible consequence, and a real danger, to foolishness on their behalf. 

Likewise, removing yourself from the presence of God is a consequence of your own choosing. There is a way for your to choose for that not to happen. And it is simple enough.  The threat of punishment is yours to choose or not. if you pull the boiling pot of water down upon yourself, can you rightly claim that I punished you or that I threatened you because I warned you? How much more so a righteous God who warns about the ways and choices of men?
“My mission today is to go forth and tell people about why I follow Christ and also what the Bible teaches, and part of that teaching is that women and men are meant to be together.

“However, I would never treat anyone with disrespect just because they are different from me. We are all created by the Almighty and like Him, I love all of humanity. We would all be better off if we loved God and loved each other.”
Phil Robertson an elder in the church of Christ

Online Weisshaupt

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Re: What if God is Liberal?
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2014, 08:59:12 AM »
Clearly the emphasis in the bible is on salvation and hope. Not threat of punishment.

I don't deny the emphasis is elsewhere. I assert the emphasis is irrelevant. Vinnie only needs to threaten to break your legs once - maybe twice.  Then he Breaks your Legs, otherwise his threats loose credibility with the next guy.

it IS free will. There ARE consequences to bad choices. Life demonstrates that. I taught my children not to burn themselves on the stove. I never felt I threatened them with the stove. I was never going to hold their hand to the burner, nor pour a pot of boiling liquid upon them, but I did teach them that it was a possible consequence, and a real danger, to foolishness on their behalf. 

A Stove has no agency.  The only agency at work is my own in choosing to touch it. The effects are immediate, and no one decides (using agency) I must be punished for touching it and no one can grant me forgiveness for touching it  and thereby prevent me from being burned.

I suppose one could argue that God is all powerful and can make the stove not hot, but then if he fails to act then is he not then partially responsible for the burn? (with great power comes great responsibility)  If You saw your child reaching for the burner and failed to stay their hand or protect them, would your bear any of the fault for the burn they received? God is ultimately responsible for everything and we have no free will at all if he doesn't play by the rules of Nature ( which  he designed and set up). Free Will is a space that God must carve out of his realm for us if we are to have it- where he binds himself and his ability to interfere by Deep Magic or other covenants.

God isn't warning me not to touch the stove. He is not warning me of a natural consequence.  He is threatening punishment if I don't obey his laws and make the choices He approves of.  HE says that if I do not keep his laws ( which I can by my nature do only imperfectly)  and beg forgiveness from Christ, HE  WILL cast me into the fire - he will actively hold my hand ( and my head, and my feet, and my soul) to the burner - for all eternity.
 
The  bible clearly states God will use his power and his agency to actively  punish me for breaking his law,  just as the IRS will use its thugs and goons to punish me for not paying taxes. Do you think paying Taxes is Voluntary? Most would say a voluntary act must be done in  the absence of threat and coercion. It is not free will if God's rights don't end where mine begin. (God must not actively interfere if we are to have free will)  If I don't consent to his rule, there should be no consequences other than God leaving me alone ( which is how most Conservative Christians see Hell and reconcile this with their own beliefs about free will)

But that is emphatically NOT what the bible says. 

Quote
Matthew 13

47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Quote
Luke 12
"I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. 5"But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

The Angels will sort (using agency) and cast (using agency)  the wicked into the blazing furnace - to face torture and pain for all eternity after a SECOND Death. (so no, the fact that most verses about hell contain a reference to this death is not a negation of the brimstone version of hell)

Luke tells me to fear God and his agency.  He isn't telling me to not touch the stove.  He is telling me to fear God because God is going to actively enforce his laws, actively pass judgement, and actively administer punishment to those he does not  actively forgive of their transgressions.  If this were a stove, God could not forgive me of my actions because no one is actively  punishing me for them -- no agency is making sure I endure the consequences of my foolishness ( I might have the good fortune to be wearing oven mitts, or the pot of boiling water may miss me on the way down.. )
 
The emphasis in the Bible is on being forgiven for your crimes against God. That is far more like robbing a bank than it is touching a stove.  Forgiveness, which the Bible speaks at length on,  is a act of AGENCY.  You don't forgive a natural consequence.  You avoid it or you don't. That we all commit crimes against God there can be no question - but if we have any sort of meaningful free will, then we are not Subjects of God or his laws until we choose to be. God wouldn't need to threaten  - if you want to be with God, near God, you choose to live in his kingdom and under his laws.  That is the deal.  If you don't then God has no right to punish you with hell fire, at least if he granted you free will.

It has to be one or the other, so if you have free will, one must conclude that the (seldom made) statements about hell are "embellishments" made by men.  Otherwise, God did not really grant us free will for he expects us to make choices in an environment of threats and coercion.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 09:02:58 AM by Weisshaupt »

Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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Re: What if God is Liberal?
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2014, 12:33:13 PM »
The mere separation from God is the hell. It is expressed as clearly as possible to people who have never endured it. But, those who have chosen not to stay do choose that hell. It is a free choice. The choice that does not exist is to stay in God's presence, but not accept Him as God.

The removal from His presence makes me think of the "choice" argument. What many mean is the right to choose again. It does not exist. The natural consequence of not choosing God is choosing to be without God and not in His presence. Since we know that mankind is an eternal being, and that everything else goes back to God who made it, this would naturally be a painful existence, wouldn't it?

I do not picture this as God sitting around devising tortures for people who fail to choose Him, but rather as God withdrawing His presence from them, and consequentially they will suffer for it.  Clearly, He warns about it. But, casting out is a moment of judgment, in a sense, as if you have not chosen God by then, your fate is sealed. His outreach to mankind goes on right to the end. The only alternative is to take choice away entirely.  Claiming we have no choice, is often a cover for knowing that one choice is so bad as to be unthinkable to rational people.  I myself have said I have no choice, when in truth I do, but the mere thought of the alternative is dismissed as ridiculous.  There is discussion of preparing heaven. I am not at all sure that hell or the abyss has to be prepared as I cannot find discussion of that.

But, then let us assume you are right and our Creator has threatened us and will intentionally destroy us. So? He is the Creator. Do you not have the right to destroy what you create? (Ever used an eraser? The bible uses the example of the potter and his clay. Can't he do with it as he wills? May he not destroy any pot that is not desirable? Can't he use one for flowers and another as a chamber pot? If we agree that we are His creation, can't we agree that it is just if He decides what to do with us, according to His purposes and our effectiveness?
“My mission today is to go forth and tell people about why I follow Christ and also what the Bible teaches, and part of that teaching is that women and men are meant to be together.

“However, I would never treat anyone with disrespect just because they are different from me. We are all created by the Almighty and like Him, I love all of humanity. We would all be better off if we loved God and loved each other.”
Phil Robertson an elder in the church of Christ

Online Weisshaupt

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Re: What if God is Liberal?
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2014, 05:28:13 PM »
The mere separation from God is the hell.

That is all fine and good AND I can certain agreed and cope with that definition.
You do understand that ISN'T what the bible says, right?

The choice that does not exist is to stay in God's presence, but not accept Him as God.

And so the only  place in the universe we are not in his presence is a Pit of Brimstone fire?

I do not picture this as God sitting around devising tortures for people who fail to choose Him, but rather as God withdrawing His presence from them, and consequentially they will suffer for it.  Clearly, He warns about it. But, casting out is a moment of judgment, in a sense, as if you have not chosen God by then, your fate is sealed.

Yes, a moment of judgement, under laws you never consented to follow, punishable by an eternity of torture and pain.  That is coercion and a violation of free will. Yes God can do that - he is all powerful. He is also establishing that his might makes right, rather than his perfection or just nature. Such a being isn't worthy of being called perfect or just in my opinion, since his rule isn't based on consent, but threats. 

But, then let us assume you are right and our Creator has threatened us and will intentionally destroy us. So? He is the Creator. Do you not have the right to destroy what you create? (Ever used an eraser? The bible uses the example of the potter and his clay. Can't he do with it as he wills? May he not destroy any pot that is not desirable? Can't he use one for flowers and another as a chamber pot? If we agree that we are His creation, can't we agree that it is just if He decides what to do with us, according to His purposes and our effectiveness?

Sure, he can destroy what he creates....  If never gave us freewill,  never gave us to ourselves and never relinquished his right of ownership over us. Or are you suggesting is God is some sort of "indian giver" ? -  Did he give us free will and then decide he was "just fooling"?  If we are God's property then yes, he can do with us as he will.  But then we have no will but his for he will use force against us even if we do not desire to be used for flowers or for a chamber pot.

Free Will is simply incompatible with the idea of an active punishment for disobedience or rejection of God as described in the Bible. And While I am able to locate passages about hell and punishment for choosing wrong, I can find no passages where God ever grants man Free will or to be his own sovereign - merely that God allows man to make decisions  against his will while we are on earth - only to be actively punished for those decisions later.   That is not free will.  That is living with a defined system of coercion that no individual was allowed to choose or reject.

Its all very... leftist.
 

Offline ChrstnHsbndFthr

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Re: What if God is Liberal?
« Reply #33 on: November 14, 2014, 01:44:26 AM »
It is certain that we disagree on many things scripturally speaking. I have been a bible student for nearly 50 years and as such my understanding and opinions have changed many times as I learn and understand new things.  I do not accept your assertion of an active punishment and prefer to stand with scripture that describes those who rejected God as being sent from His presence. Understand that in many places the descriptions given are giving a picture of the pain, and perhaps not an actual description of the surroundings. The entire book of Revelation describes things in metaphorical senses and it would be a mistake to take it all literally.  That is one of the interpretive challenges we face in all of scripture. What is literal and what is metaphor? There are many things that are word pictures, painted to increase the understanding of people who could not relate to the concepts.  (Trying to explain the oneness of God who presents Himself in three persons is a challenge to this day!)  It is clear to me that we have no right to enslave God, by demanding that He create and maintain a place for those who do not wish to be with Him. That appears to me to be the height of liberalism.
I see no conflict between God giving you life, letting you choose, and then deciding if He wants you in His presence or not, where He has prepared a place for us. It appears to me to be His right as our Creator.  I see the banishment from His presence as a painful thing in itself, since it is in Him that we live and move and have our being. And I see the descriptions of this pain described throughout the scriptures, but particularly by Christ and the Apostles in the New Testament. 
You complain that you never consented to being created under the terms that you have been. Okay. How could that have happened? You may not wish to breath air, but, alas, you were designed that way. You may not want to face the decision of being with God or not, but you were designed that way too. Perhaps your lot is unfair, but to whom shall you complain? There is no one to appeal to. God remains God and has every right to create us as He has. The freedom is there. The choice is bad.  Your complaint is not that you do not have freedom to choose, you merely want other choices. But, that is not ours to change.  It appears just to me that the Creator can make the rules. The nature of God is such that He desires you. And He wants you to desire Him. He offers you much, when you have nothing to offer Him. Nothing. It is purely by Grace that your salvation is arranged and it is a free gift there for the taking. I call that conservatism, because God took nothing from anyone to give to you. He provided everything from His own goodness and mercy.  The penalty for sin is death. You have already admitted the truth of the scripture that all men have sinned. And yet arrangements are made for complete forgiveness. What more could be asked? Do you seriously have a right to complain? I see nothing that prevents you from creating your own heaven and earth, except your own inability to do so. Perhaps if you were a liberal you could demand that God create something for you alone. But, I do not think you a liberal.

God has arranged a place for you to come or not. The choice is yours. Its an easy choice. It was not meant to confuse anyone.
“My mission today is to go forth and tell people about why I follow Christ and also what the Bible teaches, and part of that teaching is that women and men are meant to be together.

“However, I would never treat anyone with disrespect just because they are different from me. We are all created by the Almighty and like Him, I love all of humanity. We would all be better off if we loved God and loved each other.”
Phil Robertson an elder in the church of Christ

Offline Libertas

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Re: What if God is Liberal?
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2014, 06:10:10 AM »
I think, perhaps, the more frightening speculation is...what if the Devil is a Conservative?

But I think that argument falls apart pretty quickly for obvious reasons...so if that is false, then the opposite certainly cannot be true, right?

I am going for simple, I like simple, the less complicated the answer the more correct it is likely to be.

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Online Weisshaupt

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Re: What if God is Liberal?
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2014, 08:52:33 AM »
It is certain that we disagree on many things scripturally speaking. I have been a bible student for nearly 50 years and as such my understanding and opinions have changed many times as I learn and understand new things.  I do not accept your assertion of an active punishment and prefer to stand with scripture that describes those who rejected God as being sent from His presence.

I am certainly no Bible Scholar and wouldn't even think of calling myself one. However, I have already provided two examples from Scripture which I think clearly describe  God and his Angels taking an active part in casting people into a pit of fire and warning men to be scared of the wrath of God for sinning.  I would be happy to look at what evidence you would like to provide to refute that interpretation should you care to provide it.

God can make whatever rules he wants, but granting Freewill (if he did so ) imposes rules on Him. If mankind is to have freewill God cannot set up a system of coercion that would PUNISH people for making choices God disagrees with. And "Punishment" is the word used consistently in the Bible. Active. Involved. Pain and Suffering for commission of a crime.  When you burn yourself on the stove we call it an accident not a crime.  The burn is an unfortunate result, not a punishment.  If Hell is just suffering endured because of the absence of God,  a natural consequence,  like a burn from the stove, why would that constantly be referred to as a "punishment" in the Bible?
Why would the reason for that punishment be constantly referred to as crimes committed against God (sins)?
 
Quote
Matthew 25
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

So how is one to know when a description is metaphorical vs literal?  The verses I have found have all been very consistent in their description of brimstone, a lake of fire, burning etc- which suggests a non-metaphorical and literal use..

It is clear to me that we have no right to enslave God, by demanding that He create and maintain a place for those who do not wish to be with Him. That appears to me to be the height of liberalism.

Um, no. You claimed we were God's Property - his pots - that is a claim of slavery of the human race BY God.  IF God doesn't own us,  that is NOT equivalent to an attempt to enslave him. That is like saying live and let live allows me to unfairly impose my views on you-- namely my view that I am a free human being.  If God granted us free will, that imposes limits on his control over us and right to issue punishments.

God  is not beholden to create or maintain "a place" (what does that mean outside of space-time? I have no clue) for the men he supposedly set free from him. But if there is no "place" for them to live free that satisfies the requirements God built into their nature, then he didn't really free them, did he? Of course according to the bible he did create a place.. Its a lake of fire where they will be tortured for all eternity.

I see no conflict between God giving you life, letting you choose, and then deciding if He wants you in His presence or not, where He has prepared a place for us. It appears to me to be His right as our Creator.


There isn't any conflict in that, as long as you don't pretend my "choice" is made without coercion and threats..
The choice cannot be made in free will , because threats of punishment have been made. God of course can do what  he wants with his property of  human slaves and set up any rules he desires. Those rules were not consented to by the people involved (because they cannot refuse without being punished) and therefore they were not granted free will - merely a "choice" in a coercive environment.   

Perhaps your lot is unfair, but to whom shall you complain? There is no one to appeal to. God remains God and has every right to create us as He has. The freedom is there. The choice is bad.  Your complaint is not that you do not have freedom to choose, you merely want other choices.

No, my complaint is that the  choices offered are offered  in an environment of coercion. Seriously, If I told you that you must serve me or you would be deprived of air, or water, or food , would you not feel coerced? After all,  Its not my fault  that you need air , water or food, so I am not coercing you, correct? In God's case it actually is his fault that you need those things, so when he threatens to deny them its worse isn't it? 

Quote
“For if you suffer your people to be ill-educated, and their manners to be corrupted from their infancy, and then punish them for those crimes to which their first education disposed them, what else is to be concluded from this, but that you first make thieves and then punish them.”
? Thomas More, Utopia

How many millennia passed before Jesus was even sent to educate us? How imperfectly was that information spread in the world thereafter? How confusing and difficult bible scholarship is when I read one passage as think it says one thing, and you say it means something other via metaphor. The Creator of the universe couldn't communicate more clearly than this? He allowed us to become sinful and corrupted. He gave us a poor and confusing education, and then intends to punish us for doing what our natures and education incline us to do.
 
But, that is not ours to change.  It appears just to me that the Creator can make the rules. The nature of God is such that He desires you. And He wants you to desire Him. He offers you much, when you have nothing to offer Him. Nothing. It is purely by Grace that your salvation is arranged and it is a free gift there for the taking.

God can make whatever rules he wants, but granting Freewill (if he did so ) imposes rules on Him. If mankind is to have freewill God cannot set up a system of coercion that would PUNISH people for making choices God disagrees with. Failure to comply would simply leave them free to exist without God. No "Punishment" involved.

Online Weisshaupt

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Re: What if God is Liberal?
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2014, 08:55:38 AM »
I think, perhaps, the more frightening speculation is...what if the Devil is a Conservative?

Given that he declared himself and his Angels a Free Sovereign and outside of God's Control, then yeah, in that sense he is a conservative. However if you use that freedom to immediately turn around and become God's instruments of torture what did you gain?


Offline Libertas

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Re: What if God is Liberal?
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2014, 11:18:01 AM »
I think, perhaps, the more frightening speculation is...what if the Devil is a Conservative?

Given that he declared himself and his Angels a Free Sovereign and outside of God's Control, then yeah, in that sense he is a conservative. However if you use that freedom to immediately turn around and become God's instruments of torture what did you gain?

Lucifer declared himself above God, probably not a wise career move, but it is also the hallmark of a libiot, so that seems congruous.  Plus, Lucifer, not God, received high praise in Allinsky's "Rules for Radicals", kinda telling don't you think?  IMO God likes free-thinkers...just not ones that seek to subvert and or replace him.  Lucifer didn't have to rebel and challenge God, he could have stayed loyal and enjoyed Heaven and being one of God's high angels, he thought he could gain the whole kingdom but was given a new kingdom instead, and he has been warring against God and God's creations (principally us!) ever since.  In that latter regard he could have hardly received better Allies than Mohammad and Allinsky!
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