Author Topic: The Critical Need for Liberal Education  (Read 4847 times)

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Offline Predator Don

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Re: The Critical Need for Liberal Education
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2011, 08:12:31 PM »
Here is my take on it.... This is coming from an un-degreed engineer.

My first objective post high school was to get a job and get out of my mothers house.  I joined the Air Force (prior to graduating high school I attempted to go to the AF Academy, so I attempted to get a free education to achieve this first objective)

After 4 years in the military, I decided that it was time to get a real job (not much call for a B-52 gunner in the real world) and took an entry level job at a grocery store (bagger).  This job was short lived, but I had experience in retail sales for my resume.  Notice that getting an education was not my next objective, but being able to support myself was.  With this experience on my resume, I applied for a job as a night shift clerk/floor scrubber for a small convenience store chain.  Being rather intelligent ( IQ > 160) I soon (within 2 months) was promoted to Shift Manager then (3 months later) to Asst. Manager then when my manager finally completed his degree (in engineering by the way), he suggested that the company promote me to Store Manager (I had worked for the company for less than 1 year).  Hard work and a strong work ethic (thanks mom) propelled me to a comfortable living for a 24 year old.  Over the course of the next 4 years, I took better paying managerial jobs and eventually ended up as a U-Haul Center General Manager, during this time I also went to a local junior college but was not in pursuit of any particular degree (I took classes that interested me).  Then... turmoil.  I had to fire my assistant manager at the U-Haul Center and was at the mercy of the local U-Haul company to get a replacement.  They dragged their feet for 2 months (all the while I was working 7 days/week 10-15 hours/day), I got fed up and quit without any prospects. 

Now I was thinking education... however I didn't have enough savings for something long term, while up late one night I saw an ad on TV "become a draftsman now, enroll at ABC Tech and get your drafting certificate in 6 months".  Short term education but I had to pay my bills (rent, food, utilities, etc.)  so I went to work for a former employer part time in a lesser capacity than manager.  You may notice a theme here "need to stay alive with a roof over my head (that is not free)", I still wanted my independence.

After getting my drafting certificate (including CAD) I applied at all of the major aerospace firms and major sub-tier suppliers.  Within  3 months I was hired by Rohr Industries (a local manufacturer of aircraft nacelles) as a draftsman.  Remember the IQ?  in 1 year I was promoted to Sr. Draftsman, 2 years later to Designer, 2 years later to Engineer. 3 years later to Sr. Engineer.  During my time at Rohr I continued going to junior college, and actually had to drop out of a chemistry class to learn CATIA (company training in an advanced CAD tool), since the 2 classes conflicted.  I figured that learning the advanced CAD tool was more important to my future job growth than chemistry would be.  Now I work for the largest aerospace company in the US (possibly the world) and earn a great living.  My whole life was predicated on being independent and being able to support myself and my family.

I started at the bottom (with no objections) and through hard work and perseverance I made it to a position that I am proud of and can support my family quite well.  Had I done what my friends from high school had done (gone to college paid for by their parents and lived at home while they did it) I may not be where I am now.  On the other hand I may have become an executive at my current employer by this time.

I guess the point I trying to make is that I was not poisoned by higher education, and never expected anything to be handed to me.  I worked for everything I have, and now these idiots think they deserve something for nothing, I don't think so!


Nice to hear your story, BenB. A success story.

Now, we have a bunch of whiners who believed they are privledged and the nation owes them something....whick brings me to suggest something I don't necessarily agree, but since we have lost the educational battle to liberals and the minds of the young, it may be the only avenue available to teach self discipline, self worth and personal responsibility......

Maybe serving your country shouldn't be all volunteer......
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RickZ

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Re: The Critical Need for Liberal Education
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2011, 01:07:40 AM »
I guess the point I trying to make is that I was not poisoned by higher education, and never expected anything to be handed to me.  I worked for everything I have, and now these idiots think they deserve something for nothing, I don't think so!

Well, no.  These idiots paid upwards of $100K, easy, for their beloved Wymyn's Studies degrees.  So they paid what they think is the cover charge to a job and a successful career (two different things as your story so nobly points out), and now they are owed that two-drink minimum, with a starting job of about $75-100K yet with no marketable skills other than getting on the nanny government gravy train.  They have no clue, and obviously didn't buy one in college, either.

I also find it interesting you talk of you wanting to be independent.  The first thing you did was join the Air Force, becoming responsible for yourself -- big time.  The penalties for crimes at school are completely different from the penalties for crimes in the military.  But many who go to college only go because they are expected to, that it's their cover charge to a better life than their parents (the ol' American dream).  Well now, for the first time in many years, children today can expect a lower standard of living than  their parents.  So that has them a bit miffed.  These kids have been protected from the harsh realities of life, growing up in a place where everybody gets a trophy, where competition is bad, where learning is to the lowest common intellect.  So they have been a social engineering experiment started by Dr. Spock that has come to poltically correct fruition.   They have not been allowed to fail -- until now.  And they find that rightfully frightening.  But, like the morons they are, they have no idea at whom they should be angry, falling for the easy score with 'tax the rich'.  (If I can't be successful, neither can you!)  They have never been independent in their well-controlled, music, soccer, baseball, dancing, martial arts lives.  They are so stupid as to actually think moving out of the house and going to college (on mommy's and daddy's family monies) makes them independent.  They think, like so many think, independence is something you can buy, not something you earn.

Online benb61

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Re: The Critical Need for Liberal Education
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2011, 10:27:49 AM »
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Maybe serving your country shouldn't be all volunteer......

Well Don, I almost agree with you, almost.  The first thing that the future generations need is the desire to be independent, i.e. earning their own way in life, without mommy and daddy helping out.  My answer to that was the military.  But in a way, I was not as independent as I would have liked to think.  I took a guaranteed job.  By that I mean I knew I could get in (smart and healthy enough) and I also knew I would do well (driven), but on the other side of that coin, I also knew it was a regular paycheck for 4 years.  Some of today's youth are not smart or healthy enough and I have yet to see many that are driven.

Quote
These idiots paid upwards of $100K, easy, for their beloved Wymyn's Studies degrees.

RickZ.. mostly it was mommy and daddy and the US taxpayer that paid for most of these idiots.  Granted there are a few that are driven enough to to make their own way, but I believe that these individuals are also driven enough to get that job.  It's the ones that go because they were told that it is the easy ticket to wealth, or were told by mommy and daddy that you are going to college regardless, that took the easy classes ( wymyns studies) and barely passed that are angry.  They are also the ones that got a trophy for "Participating" and in the competitions where we kept score in our generation, they didn't.  They are the "we are all equal" generation, and are now finding that in the real world that they are not!
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Online Pandora

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Re: The Critical Need for Liberal Education
« Reply #23 on: November 09, 2011, 10:32:51 AM »
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They are so stupid as to actually think moving out of the house and going to college (on mommy's and daddy's family monies) makes them independent.  They think, like so many think, independence is something you can buy, not something you earn.

That is so true it bears repeating.

The whole time they're at college, the majority are still protected, cocooned among their peers in a rigidly-controlled, "thou shalt not cause offense", milieu, enforced by older, just as immature "professionals".  They think, because they're vigorously encouraged to rejected Mommy's and Daddy's "indoctrination", that they're now free-thinkers, failing to ken they've not been given the tools to grow up but to grow left.
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Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: The Critical Need for Liberal Education
« Reply #24 on: November 09, 2011, 11:05:06 AM »
The high school near me has 4500 students.  They have two levels of honor roll.  The first is 4.0 GPA or higher  students, the second is 3.0 or higher students.
(They used to have several levels of honor rolls but consolidated them into 2).

I took the time to count the names from last spring's total honor roll.  Half the students are on the honor roll.

That seems odd to me.

I know one 9th grader's homework for the Constitution unit was to write a caption for a cartoon of Washington and another founding father.

Their summer reading requirements includes books I'd be embarrassed to read!  If the books were movies they'd easily be "R" rated.  Several parents ran to get on the board last year with the subject of those books as their platform.  They lost because most parents felt that the teachers know what kids should be reading, not parents!

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Re: The Critical Need for Liberal Education
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2011, 11:40:22 AM »
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If I'm not mistaken, the high schools had about a week to create a new graduation project before the end of school last year. There really was not sufficient time for public input. Even if there were, I'm not so sure that inviting input on curriculum matters is a good idea.  Let's leave it to the professionals.

See that?  This came from my locality, but is going on everywhere.  The schools and "the involved" are constantly whining about the lack of parental participation, and then, this is the attitude parents are faced with when they want an input-opportunity.  I don't believe the curriculum is a throw-away item; it's THE purpose of schools.
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Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: The Critical Need for Liberal Education
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2011, 11:48:27 AM »
Same here, Pan.  I voted against every incumbant on the school board last year.  One was quoted as saying the years they had parental input on reading lists were "disasters".  The others all had similar comments on their websites to the effect that teachers know what kids need.  One parental suppporter quoted on somebody's site said he had "no problem" with the reading list.  His son had read the books and it was all fine.  Well, shoot if you don't have a problem with your kid reading about a 16 year old's first sexual encounter in telling detail I guess the rest of us should rest easy, huh?   ::gaah::

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RickZ

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Re: The Critical Need for Liberal Education
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2011, 11:57:48 AM »
The whole time they're at college, the majority are still protected, cocooned among their peers in a rigidly-controlled, "thou shalt not cause offense", milieu, enforced by older, just as immature "professionals".

On top of that, I feel quite certain they've been praised, in ways seen and unseen, to toe the party line as taught by union hacks.  (That is not to say all teachers are union hacks, but you know the ones who are [and Randi Weingarten is one that immediately springs to mind]).  Honestly, I can't imagine going to school today facing the magnitude of the indoctrination and come out halfway normal.  Standing up to the whole global warming climate change nonsense must be tough, a conceptual scam which should be relegated to a course on The History of Fraudulent Science, for both history and science majors.  Sort of like The Donation of Constantine.  It was so real . . . , until it wasn't.

My freshman year in college was the tail end of Vietnam, and we had two vets (Army and Air Force) (the Army guy had bdeen in 'Nam) on my floor, then two below was another Air Force guy who had been in 'Nam.  All on the GI Bill and all with a definite opinion of the military, little of it good.  One guy, an AF AP, put up with a lot of chickensh*t while on duty in England.  One of his fellow AP's committed suicide on post one night with a .45 and was quite messy as described by my dormmate who found his friend.  Quite naturally, I gave these guys leeway in their opinions because they were based upon personal experience.  They did not hate America.  They hated the Vietnam War.

And quite honestly, so did I, but not for anti-war reasons.  I was against the war because I somehow realized at the ripe old age of 11-12 that something was f*cked up over there.  I remember the weekly body counts on the national news at dinnertime.  It was always something like 'this week, 254 US soldiers lost their lives while 10,500 enemy were killed'.  Even in my tiny and unformed mind, the math didn't add up.  I knew that if we were killing that many and losing only those few, then we should be rolling, albeit bloodily, along; Grant is a good example of success while employed in a war of attrition (at least in this one, Americans were not on both sides, except for Kerry and such ilk).  As I grew older, I learned about the idea that Vietnam was a 9 to 5 war, that Charlie owned the night.  Today, that wouldn't be the case as our military has gone big-time for small fire teams of extremely qualified men (no women in the super elite units that I know of).  We own the night.  Stealth technology has seen to that.  No longer could a jungle canopy provide cover for a Ho Chi Minh trail.

I was always pro-war, if you will.  I understood the necessity, at times, of shedding blood to do the right thing.  WWII was still fresh in grade school; my parents being of that generation didn't hurt none, either.  I read/looked at an article in Life (or the other mag) concerning death camps with, that I specifically remember, photos of Jewesses lining up naked in Treblinka for that final gauntlet into the showers.  One couldn't stop the Nazis without using massive and lethal force.  Communism was just as bad, but somehow stayed localized in its conflict of ideologies.  So I understood the Holocaust, even though I didn't learn that formal name until much later (I think it might have been that tv miniseries from the late '70's, with Michael Moriarity called, appropriately, The Holocaust; much later I learned the name Shoah).  So I was not against the Vietnam War on some sort of peacenik principles but rather because we weren't fighting to win.  How many sitting Congresspersons at the time who were critical of the War had ever had one iota of military training, even if just military history?  And yet they knew better than generals often learned on the taxpayer dime.  Congress didn't throw good money after bad but rather ignored those whom they (collectively and as a part of Government) had educated at taxpayer cost to provide just such advice.  The one thing Gulf War I retaught sentient Americans is that if we are going to go to war, build it up, take the enemy out with overwhelming force, then think about rebuilding; Operation Iraqi Freedom had a different mindset from the outset.

I'm not saying the US is perfect, but this Country has been a force for good more than a force for evil.  We have freed god knows how many.  We have, until now, passed along the legacy of those who wrote of secular Government and wrote its rules and procedures in a document called the Constitution.  Some of our former enemies are our greatest success stories in the real 'regime change' department:  Germany and Japan.  I had hoped that maybe Iraq could at least be a nominal friend in the region, but I think that is not going to happen.  (I was extremely disappointed by the Iraqis who were given their freedom  on a silver platter after decades of living under the tyrannical rule of the al-Tikriti clan.)  I had never held much hope for Afghanistan, and I thought early on and I still think today that we did not destroy enough, kill enough to make a long term difference.  Those who live there see who will last, who the strong horse will be, and those strong horses have shari'a as their guide.  Can't blame 'em, but we tried.  Yet with Iraq I had hoped for a little more gratitude, yes gratitude.  We were never fighting the Iraqi people, took great pains at enormous cost to spare them and they're like, 'Eh, what have you done for me lately?'

Offline Predator Don

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Re: The Critical Need for Liberal Education
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2011, 12:00:04 PM »
Quote
Maybe serving your country shouldn't be all volunteer......

Well Don, I almost agree with you, almost.  The first thing that the future generations need is the desire to be independent, i.e. earning their own way in life, without mommy and daddy helping out.  My answer to that was the military.  But in a way, I was not as independent as I would have liked to think.  I took a guaranteed job.  By that I mean I knew I could get in (smart and healthy enough) and I also knew I would do well (driven), but on the other side of that coin, I also knew it was a regular paycheck for 4 years.  Some of today's youth are not smart or healthy enough and I have yet to see many that are driven.

Quote
These idiots paid upwards of $100K, easy, for their beloved Wymyn's Studies degrees.

RickZ.. mostly it was mommy and daddy and the US taxpayer that paid for most of these idiots.  Granted there are a few that are driven enough to to make their own way, but I believe that these individuals are also driven enough to get that job.  It's the ones that go because they were told that it is the easy ticket to wealth, or were told by mommy and daddy that you are going to college regardless, that took the easy classes ( wymyns studies) and barely passed that are angry.  They are also the ones that got a trophy for "Participating" and in the competitions where we kept score in our generation, they didn't.  They are the "we are all equal" generation, and are now finding that in the real world that they are not!


I want an all volunteer military.....and why I prefaced my comment. Sometimes, to earn your independence, you first must learn what it is. Those protesting certainly do not understand, it is skewed to allow them to be dependant. I certainly do not want the military to become some sort of nanny state and even my mentioning serving to be non volunteer gave me the feeling I'm no better than the liberal wanting gov't to take care of all...... But I also know anyone who serves comes away with a better understanding of freedom and independence.

I offer as just a thought.
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Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: The Critical Need for Liberal Education
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2011, 12:30:33 PM »
I think I started to notice changes about 20-25 years ago.


When my husband and I were looking for our first home the real estate agents weren't calling them starter homes any more.  We bought a small house in a post WWII neighborhood. There were people still living there that had raised their families there from the time the homes were built.  We've long since moved and many of the houses have given way to McMansions.  God bless you if you have the money but it's the attitude of these new home buyers that rubs me the wrong way. I'm glad I don't live in that neighborhood any more. (We thought about a remodel but decided to move instead--I wanted to stay married hahaha!)

When we looked for the next home we noticed an interesting thing--new developments in our price range  were building homes that gave the illusion of McMansions but once you got inside you realized they weren't all that bigger than what we had.  My husband and I talked a lot about it at the time.  It seemed our generation wanted to have the same standard of living they'd left at their parent's home.  Where their parents may have worked for 20 years or more to get to that point (as did my dad and my father-in-law) these folks didn't want to work for it.

Then as these new huge houses were going up in our old neighborhood we wondered how could these people our age afford these things?  We discovered many were living on credit cards or their parents/grandparents generosity OR assuming that someday they would sell for a huge gain and pay off all their debt and move to Florida.

To me this all symptoms of the same attitude started way back in pre-pre K!  You get a sticker for showing up. You get a job for having a degree.  You get the house you want because it's the next thing on your list.



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Offline Predator Don

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Re: The Critical Need for Liberal Education
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2011, 12:56:54 PM »
I think I started to notice changes about 20-25 years ago.


When my husband and I were looking for our first home the real estate agents weren't calling them starter homes any more.  We bought a small house in a post WWII neighborhood. There were people still living there that had raised their families there from the time the homes were built.  We've long since moved and many of the houses have given way to McMansions.  God bless you if you have the money but it's the attitude of these new home buyers that rubs me the wrong way. I'm glad I don't live in that neighborhood any more. (We thought about a remodel but decided to move instead--I wanted to stay married hahaha!)

When we looked for the next home we noticed an interesting thing--new developments in our price range  were building homes that gave the illusion of McMansions but once you got inside you realized they weren't all that bigger than what we had.  My husband and I talked a lot about it at the time.  It seemed our generation wanted to have the same standard of living they'd left at their parent's home.  Where their parents may have worked for 20 years or more to get to that point (as did my dad and my father-in-law) these folks didn't want to work for it.

Then as these new huge houses were going up in our old neighborhood we wondered how could these people our age afford these things?  We discovered many were living on credit cards or their parents/grandparents generosity OR assuming that someday they would sell for a huge gain and pay off all their debt and move to Florida.

To me this all symptoms of the same attitude started way back in pre-pre K!  You get a sticker for showing up. You get a job for having a degree.  You get the house you want because it's the next thing on your list.






yea....Home ownership went from a privledge to a right. Let's create a loan program so everyone can own a home.
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Online benb61

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Re: The Critical Need for Liberal Education
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2011, 04:29:33 PM »
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yea....Home ownership went from a privilege to a right. Let's create a loan program so everyone can own a home.

But lets not regulate it so anyone (regardless of ability to repay) can get one.
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Re: The Critical Need for Liberal Education
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2011, 04:33:52 PM »
Quote
yea....Home ownership went from a privilege to a right. Let's create a loan program so everyone can own a home.

But lets not regulate it so anyone (regardless of ability to repay) can get one.

In a way, that was the regulation, supported by quota-counts.
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Offline Predator Don

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Re: The Critical Need for Liberal Education
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2011, 04:48:55 PM »
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yea....Home ownership went from a privilege to a right. Let's create a loan program so everyone can own a home.

But lets not regulate it so anyone (regardless of ability to repay) can get one.


Funny how it works. Pass laws encouraging lending to those who really can't pay it back, create a housing crisis, pass laws which creates a credit crunch, people can't get refi's, pass laws to lower interest rates.....finallllllyyyyy....Just give them the damn house.
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Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: The Critical Need for Liberal Education
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2011, 06:56:52 PM »
.....finallllllyyyyy....Just give them the damn house.

i think there's some kind of belief that owning a house makes one a responsible, productive person.  So if you give people a house then --voila! --they become producers.

I think it works the other way.  You become responsible and productive so you can own property.
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Re: The Critical Need for Liberal Education
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2011, 07:13:43 PM »
.....finallllllyyyyy....Just give them the damn house.

i think there's some kind of belief that owning a house makes one a responsible, productive person.  So if you give people a house then --voila! --they become producers.

I think it works the other way.  You become responsible and productive so you can own property.

Cargo-cult mentality.
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Online benb61

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Re: The Critical Need for Liberal Education
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2011, 07:17:56 PM »
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i think there's some kind of belief that owning a house makes one a responsible, productive person.  So if you give people a house then --voila! --they become producers.

I don't know about you but it's been my experience that anything someone has worked hard themselves to purchase seems to be better taken  care of than anything that has been given to them,  i.e. the kid next door was given a nice BMW from his dad, was thrashed in about 3 weeks, but the Kia he bought himself has stayed immaculate for 3 years now.
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Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: The Critical Need for Liberal Education
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2011, 07:43:51 PM »
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i think there's some kind of belief that owning a house makes one a responsible, productive person.  So if you give people a house then --voila! --they become producers.

I don't know about you but it's been my experience that anything someone has worked hard themselves to purchase seems to be better taken  care of than anything that has been given to them,  i.e. the kid next door was given a nice BMW from his dad, was thrashed in about 3 weeks, but the Kia he bought himself has stayed immaculate for 3 years now.

seems to always work that way doesn't it?

"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."