Author Topic: AMPU - An Obama Second Term Means a Bankrupt United States  (Read 6424 times)

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Re: AMPU - An Obama Second Term Means a Bankrupt United States
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2012, 11:15:27 PM »
Quote
And what arena is that?  It sure sounds to me like there are several people here who think the country cannot be turned around.  I'm not sure how else to classify that other than giving up.

Stating the hard cold reality isn't the same as giving up but I'll admit to some of the doom & doom. Perhaps you could humor this gloom~n~doomer with a scenario where you believe this country can be turned around. Dismissing your earlier prelude (even if everyone in the nation woke up tomorrow and were of one accord and decided that drastic change needed to occur) because that's not going to happen.

And forget about "They're going to have to be bold and transformative, but I believe the will of the American people is there to support bold moves like social security reform and a drastic cutting off the federal budget." because that's not going to happen either. Mittens is neither of those things and the left won't allow him to do the things you suggest.

So, what next? Be specific and as optimistic as possible  :D


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Re: AMPU - An Obama Second Term Means a Bankrupt United States
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2012, 11:19:29 PM »

So, what next? Be specific and as optimistic as possible  :D



So let me get this straight...you reject my premise out of hand, and expect me to simply accept yours?  Come on.
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Re: AMPU - An Obama Second Term Means a Bankrupt United States
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2012, 11:23:35 PM »

So, what next? Be specific and as optimistic as possible  :D



So let me get this straight...you reject my premise out of hand, and expect me to simply accept yours?  Come on.

No, hon.  He presents his POV honestly and expects you to defend yours, rejection notwithstanding. 

None of us are beyond reason, we just need a few basis-points on which to hang hats.
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Re: AMPU - An Obama Second Term Means a Bankrupt United States
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2012, 11:33:12 PM »

So, what next? Be specific and as optimistic as possible  :D



So let me get this straight...you reject my premise out of hand, and expect me to simply accept yours?  Come on.

No, hon.  He presents his POV honestly and expects you to defend yours, rejection notwithstanding. 

None of us are beyond reason, we just need a few basis-points on which to hang hats.

Sorry, that's not what happened at all.  I've done nothing BUT present my view.  He said it was impossible without bothering to state why - just that "it is", and that means he rejected the premise out of hand.  Then expects me to formulate an argument within the bounds of HIS premise.  Which I won't do, because it seems the premise is that the only way to affect real change in this country is with violence.  I reject that premise, vehemently, and he rejects mine.  There's not much else to talk about. 

If you don't think I've offered more than a few basis points, I'd ask you if you've read what I've been writing.
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Re: AMPU - An Obama Second Term Means a Bankrupt United States
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2012, 11:41:20 PM »

So, what next? Be specific and as optimistic as possible  :D



So let me get this straight...you reject my premise out of hand, and expect me to simply accept yours?  Come on.

No, hon.  He presents his POV honestly and expects you to defend yours, rejection notwithstanding.  

None of us are beyond reason, we just need a few basis-points on which to hang hats.

Sorry, that's not what happened at all.  I've done nothing BUT present my view.  He said it was impossible without bothering to state why - just that "it is", and that means he rejected the premise out of hand.  Then expects me to formulate an argument within the bounds of HIS premise.  Which I won't do, because it seems the premise is that the only way to affect real change in this country is with violence.  I reject that premise, vehemently, and he rejects mine.  There's not much else to talk about.  

If you don't think I've offered more than a few basis points, I'd ask you if you've read what I've been writing.

I HAVE read it; all of it.  I've also pointed out to you that some here agree with you as far as working within the system goes.  I'm not one of 'em, but, so what?  You write for the ones that agree and the ones you can sway to your POV, and hope the ones that don't are influenced as well, no?

Listen to me.  LISTEN:

We're not adversaries here, donchaknow?  We articulate, pontificate and advocate within a friendly, civil network.  We try out and hone our arguments on each other for use in a wider sphere.  With the spread of viewpoints here, if you can't eliminate the weaknesses in your argument, what hope do you have with the moderates, nevermind the "liberals"?
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Re: AMPU - An Obama Second Term Means a Bankrupt United States
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2012, 11:43:18 PM »
Your original premise (correct me if I'm wrong) is that we can recover from this mess, but not with Øbozo at the helm. I gave it a nod of agreement (agreed in principle as a theoretic possibility). One of the necessities to turning this country around is to contain our spending, and entitlements hits square on that target.

One poster - Weisshaupt - says that we are in so deep on SS that we'll never see the light of day (my paraphrase). In turn you said something to the effect that (your premise stipulated) we could accomplish the sea change in four years.

Have I stated the current playing field correctly?

Your premise: "even if everyone in the nation woke up tomorrow and were of one accord and decided that drastic change needed to occur". Right?

I can recall no time in our history when everyone has awoken with identical sentiments. Even in the wake of 9/11 we may have offered similar sentiments, but we couldn't agree on much more than that we had been attacked and it was generally a sad and ugly thing.

I'm sure that you've watched Congress as closely as I have and seen the obstructionism of the left. How many days has it been since the Senate proposed a budget? 1085 days I believe. With that in mind I would ask again how in the world we are going to suddenly find the equanimity and generosity of spirit that you are suggesting?

I also recall GW attempting to rein in SS by advocating reform. Do you remember how well that went over?

So no, I don't reject your premise out of hand - but I do reject it as unrealistic.


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Re: AMPU - An Obama Second Term Means a Bankrupt United States
« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2012, 11:46:45 PM »

We're not adversaries here, donchaknow?  We articulate, pontificate and advocate within a friendly, civil network.  We try out and hone our arguments on each other for use in a wider sphere.  With the spread of viewpoints here, if you can't eliminate the weaknesses in your argument, what hope do you have with the moderates, nevermind the "liberals"?

What weaknesses?  I've clearly spelled out why I believe what I believe.  It is not weakness to refuse to argue inside of someone else's premise, especially when you don't believe it.  I do not believe it is impossible to turn this country around using non-violent means.  It appears more than a few people here reject that premise.  That's fine, they can do whatever they want, but it's a bit disingenuous to reject my premise out of hands and then expect me to accept and argue within theirs.

So as far as I can tell, the only "weakness" my argument has is that I refuse to believe we Americans need to start killing each other in order to fix the problems we have as a nation.  I will never accept that premise that we do.

You still haven't explained why you mean by "operating under other parameters" when I asked, either.  Why are you demanding I "hone my argument" when you fail to answer simple questions about yours?
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Re: AMPU - An Obama Second Term Means a Bankrupt United States
« Reply #47 on: April 22, 2012, 11:51:36 PM »
Your original premise (correct me if I'm wrong) is that we can recover from this mess, but not with Øbozo at the helm.

Sort of.  I think it's possible to fix the problems we have with the right person leading us.  I don't know if Romney is that right person or not, but I don't respond well to overwhelming negativity and defeatism.  That's the sense of what I'm getting from a lot of people around here.  

One poster - Weisshaupt - says that we are in so deep on SS that we'll never see the light of day (my paraphrase). In turn you said something to the effect that (your premise stipulated) we could accomplish the sea change in four years.

Not exactly.  He was talking about the sum total of the unfunded liabilities of the various "promises" government has made.

Have I stated the current playing field correctly?

Not exactly, but I think we're straight now.

Your premise: "even if everyone in the nation woke up tomorrow and were of one accord and decided that drastic change needed to occur". Right?

Wrong.  I didn't say drastic change needed a unanimous consensus of the nation to occur.  I was merely making that point if even if we DID have unanimous consensus, we'd STILL not be able to make the changes we need to make in a single year.

I can recall no time in our history when everyone has awoken with identical sentiments. Even in the wake of 9/11 we may have offered similar sentiments, but we couldn't agree on much more than that we had been attacked and it was generally a sad and ugly thing.

Given what I said above, I don't know that this statement is relevant anymore.

I'm sure that you've watched Congress as closely as I have and seen the obstructionism of the left. How many days has it been since the Senate proposed a budget? 1085 days I believe. With that in mind I would ask again how in the world we are going to suddenly find the equanimity and generosity of spirit that you are suggesting?

The Senate isn't required to present a budget.  The President is.  And the President has, only he has't presented one that stood a chance.  While he's met the letter of the requirement of the Constitution, he certainly isn't anywhere close to meeting the spirit of it.  The Senate is being obstructionist, yes.  With the right leader as President, that can be overcome.  Like Reagan did, who had a hostile congress his entire presidency...yet he still managed to cut taxes, among other things.

I also recall GW attempting to rein in SS by advocating reform. Do you remember how well that went over?

Of course I do.

So no, I don't reject your premise out of hand - but I do reject it as unrealistic.

That's rejecting it out of hand.
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Re: AMPU - An Obama Second Term Means a Bankrupt United States
« Reply #48 on: April 22, 2012, 11:51:55 PM »

So, what next? Be specific and as optimistic as possible  :D



So let me get this straight...you reject my premise out of hand, and expect me to simply accept yours?  Come on.

No, hon.  He presents his POV honestly and expects you to defend yours, rejection notwithstanding. 

None of us are beyond reason, we just need a few basis-points on which to hang hats.

Sorry, that's not what happened at all.  I've done nothing BUT present my view.  He said it was impossible without bothering to state why - just that "it is", and that means he rejected the premise out of hand.  Then expects me to formulate an argument within the bounds of HIS premise.  Which I won't do, because it seems the premise is that the only way to affect real change in this country is with violence.  I reject that premise, vehemently, and he rejects mine.  There's not much else to talk about. 

If you don't think I've offered more than a few basis points, I'd ask you if you've read what I've been writing.

By the way - feel free to peruse my posts. I think that it is possible to go all the way back to when I first subscribed. Nowhere in there will you find me advocating violence. I don't. I do however advocate self-defense and self-preservation.

Proudly.

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Re: AMPU - An Obama Second Term Means a Bankrupt United States
« Reply #49 on: April 22, 2012, 11:57:32 PM »

So, what next? Be specific and as optimistic as possible  :D



So let me get this straight...you reject my premise out of hand, and expect me to simply accept yours?  Come on.

No, hon.  He presents his POV honestly and expects you to defend yours, rejection notwithstanding. 

None of us are beyond reason, we just need a few basis-points on which to hang hats.

Sorry, that's not what happened at all.  I've done nothing BUT present my view.  He said it was impossible without bothering to state why - just that "it is", and that means he rejected the premise out of hand.  Then expects me to formulate an argument within the bounds of HIS premise.  Which I won't do, because it seems the premise is that the only way to affect real change in this country is with violence.  I reject that premise, vehemently, and he rejects mine.  There's not much else to talk about. 

If you don't think I've offered more than a few basis points, I'd ask you if you've read what I've been writing.

By the way - feel free to peruse my posts. I think that it is possible to go all the way back to when I first subscribed. Nowhere in there will you find me advocating violence. I don't. I do however advocate self-defense and self-preservation.

Proudly.


Then explain to me what exactly you think is required to achieve the sort of change I describe. 

I was't born yesterday, and if I have nothing else, it is extraordinary insight into people.  People on this board are doing a good job at dancing around the fact that they believe non-violent means to fix the country won't work, and hinting at what they think will.  It's all fine and dandy to tell me what I believe won't work.  You can certainly think whatever you want to think.  Don't demand that I accept your assertion that what I believe is wrong and then ask me to present an alternative.  Clearly people around here have an alternative in mind.  How about sharing that alternative.  Be specific.
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Re: AMPU - An Obama Second Term Means a Bankrupt United States
« Reply #50 on: April 23, 2012, 12:01:00 AM »

We're not adversaries here, donchaknow?  We articulate, pontificate and advocate within a friendly, civil network.  We try out and hone our arguments on each other for use in a wider sphere.  With the spread of viewpoints here, if you can't eliminate the weaknesses in your argument, what hope do you have with the moderates, nevermind the "liberals"?

What weaknesses?  I've clearly spelled out why I believe what I believe.  It is not weakness to refuse to argue inside of someone else's premise, especially when you don't believe it.  I do not believe it is impossible to turn this country around using non-violent means.

"Weaknesses" are what I mean when I say others do not buy your premise and present arguments against it.

Quote
 It appears more than a few people here reject that premise.  That's fine, they can do whatever they want, but it's a bit disingenuous to reject my premise out of hands and then expect me to accept and argue within theirs.

So as far as I can tell, the only "weakness" my argument has is that I refuse to believe we Americans need to start killing each other in order to fix the problems we have as a nation.  I will never accept that premise that we do.

Hmmm.  A little of your own "rejection out of hand" here, innit?

Quote
You still haven't explained why you mean by "operating under other parameters" when I asked, either.  Why are you demanding I "hone my argument" when you fail to answer simple questions about yours?

This is what you wrote:

Quote
I do not believe it is impossible to turn this country around using non-violent means.

Are you a stupid man?  You don't seem one.  I believe in parameter particulars that are best not discussed in public right now.  How much more cryptically-clear must I be? 
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Re: AMPU - An Obama Second Term Means a Bankrupt United States
« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2012, 12:03:56 AM »
Are you a stupid man?  You don't seem one.  I believe in parameter particulars that are best not discussed in public right now.  How much more cryptically-clear must I be? 

You don't.  All you did was confirm what I already suspected.

Thanks.
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Re: AMPU - An Obama Second Term Means a Bankrupt United States
« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2012, 12:04:04 AM »

So, what next? Be specific and as optimistic as possible  :D



So let me get this straight...you reject my premise out of hand, and expect me to simply accept yours?  Come on.

No, hon.  He presents his POV honestly and expects you to defend yours, rejection notwithstanding. 

None of us are beyond reason, we just need a few basis-points on which to hang hats.

Sorry, that's not what happened at all.  I've done nothing BUT present my view.  He said it was impossible without bothering to state why - just that "it is", and that means he rejected the premise out of hand.  Then expects me to formulate an argument within the bounds of HIS premise.  Which I won't do, because it seems the premise is that the only way to affect real change in this country is with violence.  I reject that premise, vehemently, and he rejects mine.  There's not much else to talk about. 

If you don't think I've offered more than a few basis points, I'd ask you if you've read what I've been writing.

By the way - feel free to peruse my posts. I think that it is possible to go all the way back to when I first subscribed. Nowhere in there will you find me advocating violence. I don't. I do however advocate self-defense and self-preservation.

Proudly.


Then explain to me what exactly you think is required to achieve the sort of change I describe. 

I was't born yesterday, and if I have nothing else, it is extraordinary insight into people.  People on this board are doing a good job at dancing around the fact that they believe non-violent means to fix the country won't work, and hinting at what they think will.  It's all fine and dandy to tell me what I believe won't work.  You can certainly think whatever you want to think.  Don't demand that I accept your assertion that what I believe is wrong and then ask me to present an alternative.  Clearly people around here have an alternative in mind.  How about sharing that alternative.  Be specific.

SOME people on this board.  Others are inclined to believe as you.  Why discount them?

And, no, goldammy, we're not going to get specific.  Figure it out for yourself why not.
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Re: AMPU - An Obama Second Term Means a Bankrupt United States
« Reply #53 on: April 23, 2012, 12:05:36 AM »
Are you a stupid man?  You don't seem one.  I believe in parameter particulars that are best not discussed in public right now.  How much more cryptically-clear must I be? 

You don't.  All you did was confirm what I already suspected.

Thanks.

You're welcome.

Now that your suspicions have been confirmed, what?
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Re: AMPU - An Obama Second Term Means a Bankrupt United States
« Reply #54 on: April 23, 2012, 12:08:35 AM »
I'm goin ta bed. Nighty-night.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

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Re: AMPU - An Obama Second Term Means a Bankrupt United States
« Reply #55 on: April 23, 2012, 12:08:49 AM »
Are you a stupid man?  You don't seem one.  I believe in parameter particulars that are best not discussed in public right now.  How much more cryptically-clear must I be?  

You don't.  All you did was confirm what I already suspected.

Thanks.

You're welcome.

Now that your suspicions have been confirmed, what?

I've messaged santa claus and asked him to remove all of my threads from the website.  While you guys are certainly entitled to run whatever sort of board you like, this isn't something of which I desire to be a part.

I can't make him do it, of course, but I'll be deleting links to this site from all my articles and not posting new ones here.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2012, 12:11:22 AM by IronDioPriest »
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Re: AMPU - An Obama Second Term Means a Bankrupt United States
« Reply #56 on: April 23, 2012, 12:14:31 AM »
Are you a stupid man?  You don't seem one.  I believe in parameter particulars that are best not discussed in public right now.  How much more cryptically-clear must I be?  

You don't.  All you did was confirm what I already suspected.

Thanks.

You're welcome.

Now that your suspicions have been confirmed, what?

I've messaged santa claus and asked him to remove all of my threads from the website.  While you guys are certainly entitled to run whatever sort of board you like, this isn't something of which I desire to be a part.

I can't make him do it, of course, but I'll be deleting links to this site from all my articles and not posting new ones here.

Santa Claus, huh?  Nice.
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Re: AMPU - An Obama Second Term Means a Bankrupt United States
« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2012, 12:17:09 AM »
Are you a stupid man?  You don't seem one.  I believe in parameter particulars that are best not discussed in public right now.  How much more cryptically-clear must I be?  

You don't.  All you did was confirm what I already suspected.

Thanks.

You're welcome.

Now that your suspicions have been confirmed, what?

I've messaged santa claus and asked him to remove all of my threads from the website.  While you guys are certainly entitled to run whatever sort of board you like, this isn't something of which I desire to be a part.

I can't make him do it, of course, but I'll be deleting links to this site from all my articles and not posting new ones here.

You don't desire to be a part of what, exactly?  Some agree with you; some don't, and refuse to detail the specifics. 

Why is that, Tim?  Why do you suppose some do not choose to get specific?  Fear of government is why.  Do you not have a problem with the fear of government silencing people in the Yew-nited States of America today?
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Re: AMPU - An Obama Second Term Means a Bankrupt United States
« Reply #58 on: April 23, 2012, 12:21:39 AM »

You don't desire to be a part of what, exactly?

You tell me.  You're the one refusing to be specific about what you believe, not me.

Some agree with you; some don't, and refuse to detail the specifics.

If someone can't tell you why they think you're wrong or why they believe what they believe, nothing they have to say is worth listening to.

Why is that, Tim?  Why do you suppose some do not choose to get specific?  Fear of government is why.  Do you not have a problem with the fear of government silencing people in the Yew-nited States of America today?

Give me a break.  It's one thing to refuse to get specific about what you believe.  It's a different thing altogether to reject someone else's specifics whilst refusing to proffer your own.  That's called hypocrisy.  If you aren't comfortable presenting your ideas, don't criticize someone else who is.  That's just common courtesy.
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Re: AMPU - An Obama Second Term Means a Bankrupt United States
« Reply #59 on: April 23, 2012, 12:22:47 AM »
Now you're just pissing on the carpet in our living room.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson