Topic: we are not rome

[Libertas]

you make a good point, LIbertas, but in essence, it can be a dangerous fatalism to begin to believe that we will follow in the path of rome because of how much we are similar to it and that could forestall actions needed to prevent the fall.  I don't think we need to go that way, and to proffer that comparison may be to pre-ordain it.

I do not dispute that, but I ascribe not to fatalism but to realism, the actions required to do so, if one is to be a realist to the level of threat to freedom we face on fronts almost too numerous to enumerate, those actions must be implemented now, it is my sober belief that time is desperately short to salvage the situation.  I cannot in good conscious tell people we have time, a decade let alone two or three, to remedy the perilous situation we are in.  It seems as if we are a heartbeat away from a situation that is a combination of the period before Caesar crossing the Rubicon, the period before our Civil War and the period before Breton Woods.

IMHO the quickest way to salvage things is for people of reason and intellect in the nation to peacefully agree to an equitable partitioning of the nation.  Obviously this is rife with political problems in a point in time where people are so politically polarized.  But it is the solution that makes the most sense and avoids all the other entanglements.  But nobody is discussing it openly and honestly.  We are in this phony war phase where people on both sides are in denial that there is a problem that severe requiring an action that decisive and permanent.  I think people thinking that way are fools and are ensuring that a non-peaceful resolution is all but guaranteed.  What form that takes is up for debate...continued Federal dominance and imperialization of the executive branch until a dictatorship exists in practical effect or a second civil war that settles the issue to the detriment of one side or the other.

The other event that may overwhelm us and spin things out of control and result in full state tyranny and resistance to it is economic collapse.  To think we can continue to print fiat currency, create bubble markets, prop up debt and keep piling on more with deficit spending and avoid a Zimbabawe type nightmare and trigger a larger global collapse and risk real shooting wars is to pre-ordain disaster.  Something will fill a vacuum, people may not like it, but it cannot be denied.

We've boxed ourselves into a nearly inescapable corner, the ways out are not pretty, picking the right exit with the least amount of resultant harm should be the focus of our leaders.

Our leaders are not facing realities.  Is that my fault?  No.  Is it yours?  No.  Is it ours?  Damn right it is.

[Pablo de Fleurs]

Here are 2 mp3 files from a talk given by author and social critic Oz Guinness (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Os_Guinness) entitled ‘Can Freedom Last Forever?’ Last semester my 16 year old daughter, a junior) submitted a term paper, for which I helped assemble sources, on the Christian roots of the founding of the United States. We used material from Oliver DeMille (http://oliverdemille.com/), Mr. Guinness & David Barton (WallBuilders http://www.wallbuilders.com/) She received an A- on the paper & a B+ for its oral defense in class.

Oz’s main point is that freedom’s greatest enemy is…freedom: given that we can do anything we desire, we ignore the signs and have given up on the “eternal vigilance" part of the necessary maintenance of our freedoms.

Part 1 - http://www.divshare.com/download/24704065-18e Part 2 - http://www.divshare.com/download/24704067-d15 (approx. 26 minutes each, from RZIM)

[Pandora]

Our leaders are not facing realities.  Is that my fault?  No.  Is it yours?  No.  Is it ours?  Damn right it is.

Should the shooting have started forty years ago?  Yes.  I'll own that, even at twenty.  But, other than that, this is not my damn fault.

[Tania513]

Our leaders are not facing realities.  Is that my fault?  No.  Is it yours?  No.  Is it ours?  Damn right it is.

Should the shooting have started forty years ago?  Yes.  I'll own that, even at twenty.  But, other than that, this is not my damn fault.

In a way it is, Pandora. In order for us to take our beloved country back, we need to face reality, that our government, is greedy and corrupt. The reason why this country is going downhill, is that POS in the Whitehouse, is using and exploiting our weaknesses against us. For example, every time a shooting in a school happens, what does he do?, try to push gun control laws.
Another prime example, when a celebrity comes out of the closet, Gay marriage seems the deal  of the day. and it goes on and on. He does this to distract us from the real issues, that get swept under the rug.
What did the leaders in Rome do? They distracted the populace, by having games in the Coliseum, to hide their own deviousness.

[AmericanPatriot]

I never make any mistakes in hindsight.
Woulda, shoulda, coulda don't matter.

I'm guessing that 20 years ago that most of us were heady about the Reagan Revolution and the end of the Cold War which we won. (Maybe)
Quite possibly most of us weren't considering the flagrant corruption of both parties.

Ten years ago, we were still basking in prosperity from the bubbles and, in general, supported GW Bush.  There was probably some stuff we didn't like but we accepted it.

All we had to do was vote in better politicians.

From what I can tell, most of us here started to realize 5 years ago that we were really screwed.

Maybe not this group, but Americans in general are greedy and corrupt.
Most have the political leadership we want and choose.

We have chosen to be ignorant and willing to be bribed with government largesse which was stolen from our neighbors.

No, our politicians aren't to blame.
We are

[Weisshaupt]

What did the leaders in Rome do? They distracted the populace, by having games in the Coliseum, to hide their own deviousness.

Its our Media that are the real traitors - refusing to do their jobs and report the news, and instead following their leftist agenda to engineer it.
Its their job to keep the frog in the pot and happy till the water boils and they do it willingly.  The School teachers do the same thing to the children- ensuring they never learn to think for themselves, that they value dependence.  We haven't gotten the govt we deserve because they are using human frailness against us, and have been for so many years, that half the population can't recognize freedom, desire it, or even understand why we are willing to die for it.

Democracy only works with an educated populace and the left deprived us of that.  That isn't my fault.  And is isn't the fault of anyone here.  This rot started in the 1880s with the first nationwide effort at public schools. It started with HOW Lincoln won the Civil war and reformed the union. It started with the public election of Senators ( and sorry ladies)  women's  suffrage. It continued with FDRs Blue Eagle Laws and entitlements, with the Baby Boomers embrace of SSI, and then made worse by  Johnson and his great Society programs.   By Nixon the dollar was off the gold Standard.  I was three then.  Does anyone think we weren't full off the rails by then?  Reagan was an odd blip, a deliberate pacification perhaps, to lull those awake back to sleep. They own the levers, they controlled the media then - absolutely. There was no internet. You know only what the big three and the NYT  told you.   Yes, we are getting the govt we deserve, because THEY made these  people what they are - deliberately and with malice. .They made them things who willingly  admit that "live and let live"  is a philosophy they will  reject.   They are Reavers. Narcissists,  Monsters. Sociopaths.

With the public schools, intelligentsia, Labor Unions, Hollywood, journalism and govt all working to at first import and then create and turn out these vermin, these feral humans, at the greatest rate possible and its our fault  now in the modern day we cannot stem the tide?  No I don't think so. Yes, vigilance may have stopped them- probably did, but then they waited and tried again, after more of their rot had spread in other areas. This battle was fought and lost before we were born. The cancer got its beachhead, and took root, and spread, speaking the fair words of the devil, wearing civility and kindness as its costume.  We never had a chance, because our society was so tolerant, because we were so free.   Hopefully in the New Republic it will mean a death sentence to suggest the Constitution be understood in any terms but the original, a hanging offense to suggest another mans labor can be confiscated for the "common good of all", and Nullification will be included in the Constitution such that any law nullified by 25% of the states results in the automatic death of all representatives who voted for it, all Jurists who upheld it, and the President who signed it.

[Glock32]

Here's the thing about Rome, and why it is so frequently cited as a cautionary example. Rome was the preeminent power of its day, and for a very long time seemed both militarily and economically invincible. Fast forward to the 20th century, especially the post-WWII era, and the USA enjoys a very similar mythos.

But Rome did crumble away, and that's the point. The same thing can happen to us, and for many of the same reasons.

[Pandora]

We have chosen to be ignorant and willing to be bribed with government largesse which was stolen from our neighbors.

No, our politicians aren't to blame.
We are

No, gawdammnit, "we" are not; they are, and I am NOT part of they.

Do not ascribe the blame to me.  I wholeheartedly reject this injustice.

In a way it is, Pandora. In order for us to take our beloved country back, we need to face reality, that our government, is greedy and corrupt.

In no way is it, Tania.  I have been struggling against the greed and corruption by not partaking in it and I take no responsibility whatever for those that have succumbed.

Get off of me, y'all; I am not at fault.

[LadyVirginia]

Get off of me, y'all; I am not at fault.

I'm with ya there.

I've been aware of this stuff going on since I was in junior high school ( a few decades  ).  I've been reading and talking and voting about this since I was 18. Back when many conservatives weren't even conservatives and would've thought I was nuts. People made fun of the idea of slippery slope. Well, we're sliding and fast.  Phyllis Schfally has been writing about this stuff for decades. Some of her books aren't even in print any more but they stuck with me especially the one she wrote about education. I remember reading that the next thing to worry about after the cold war ended was the rise of terrorism in the 3rd world.  Ha!  No one wanted to give that credibility.

There were some people concerned about the turn of events in this country long before Reagan but no one was listening. 

[Pablo de Fleurs]

Get off of me, y'all; I am not at fault.

The collective “we” is difficult to assimilate when you have been a crusader & a modern day version of Paul Revere via your warning’s, chastisements & sometimes heated arguments with the other side.

Watching & listening to idiot lemmings scream that they want no part of religion, God, conservatism or personal responsibility…in the name of some perverted sense of “freedom” (a condition where one does whatever one wishes, expecting full immunity from the consequences) is maddening.

Psalm 32:9 comes to mind:

9 Do not be like the horse or like the mule, which have no understanding, Which must be harnessed with bit and bridle, else they will not come near you.

And, because they hoist their lack of understanding upon a banner of pride, faux-sophistication & ignorance of history & the moral law of the creator whom they disavow,

3…the time [has] come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.
2 Timothy 4:3-4

…and as a result

24 Therefore God [gives] them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever.
Romans 1:24-25

…but to be lumped in with this vermin, when we have stood firm in our conviction & opposition towards cultural & economic perversion is extremely tough to endure, but we know

22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Matthew 10:22

Even so, Lord Jesus…come quickly; my lamp is filled with oil.

(but if I could make a request, just prior to that):

6 Set a wicked man over him,
And let an accuser[a] stand at his right hand.
7 When he is judged, let him be found guilty,
And let his prayer become sin.
8 Let his days be few,
And let another take his office.
9 Let his children be fatherless,
And his wife a widow.
10 Let his children continually be vagabonds, and beg;
Let them seek their bread also from their desolate places.
11 Let the creditor seize all that he has,
And let strangers plunder his labor.
12 Let there be none to extend mercy to him,
Nor let there be any to favor his fatherless children.
13 Let his posterity be cut off,
And in the generation following let their name be blotted out.

Psalm 109:6-13

Amen

[Libertas]

Yeah, didn't mean to pick on anybody...I meant "we" in my last post as a collective "we", and in that sense where "we" (the us) went wrong is in trusting politicians.  Like many here I thought we hit a stride in the 80's with Reagan that would not lose steam for decades...we were on the up-swing as a nation, we had a leader we could trust and who spoke the truth and in a way we all identified with, we had record numbers of democrats defeated in elections and switching parties...everything was euphoric and appeared unstoppable...

But in the back of our minds, especially as we entered Reagan's second term and began to think about his successor, we knew Bush wasn't the one to take the torch of the Reagan Revolution and carry it forward...(I would have preferred Jack Kemp as I recall)...then we saw how the media pounced with glee on the Iran-Contra thing and what a sideshow that was...once again highlighting the media as enemy, not just democrats and their rotten unionistas...

We voted for Bush because we had no other chance.  We may have not known it as the time but the Ruling Class snuck back from under the cracks and made sure their guy got in.  Once that happened the betrayal was complete...and once Bush started backsliding on the Reagan Revolution it fell to Congresscritters to hold the line and they had mixed results at best.  The brief hope of a return to the Reagan Principles shown a bit with the Contract for America and Newt's ascendancy to Speaker, but eventually the steam ran out and he started cutting deals with Clinton and exposed himself as a Big Govt Republican.

After that we tried Bush II as a palate cleanser from Clintonism...but our Congresscritters seemed to become more feckless and more diluted with Ruling Class asshats....so Bush II ended up a mixed bag.

And here we are.

If "we" failed we failed as far back as 1988.  If "we" failed we failed (pick a year) when we didn't pool our resources and buy up media outlets and counter the MFM propaganda.  The biggest joy I ever witnessed back then (apart from Reagan pressers and debates) was watching Ollie North turn the tables on the democrat asswipes on the Hill.  I thought, damn, if one guy can do that, think what we could do with more exposure and more pulpits to preach from?!  I was arguing all throughout the late 80's and 90's (finally giving up in the 00's) for people (you and I) and monied conservatives (like those Club for Growth asswipes) to begin buying outlets.  I might as well have torn out my voice box right then and there for all the good it did.

So, some of us did not fail...we may not have succeeded in our goals because others failed to listen and failed to act...so yes the bulk of the blame does belong to those who did not speak, to those who did not act, to those who did not care.

The rest of us can rest with a good conscience, but it doesn't mean by any stretch we are happy with the result and where we are now.

No, our memories are long, our enemies many...I won't forget...to them I say "you better watch your ass!"!

[Glock32]

Some people, Ann Barnhardt comes to mind, would argue that "we" are still to blame for every day that goes by without taking up arms and forcefully removing those who are doing these things to the country.

I don't entirely agree with that assertion, but parts of it resonate enough that I do feel some sense of guilt about the fact that all we really do is rail against this garbage in our online fury.

[Pablo de Fleurs]

Some people, Ann Barnhardt comes to mind, would argue that "we" are still to blame for every day that goes by without taking up arms and forcefully removing those who are doing these things to the country.

I don't entirely agree with that assertion, but parts of it resonate enough that I do feel some sense of guilt about the fact that all we really do is rail against this garbage in our online fury.

I certainly agree with that as a serious solution to a situation gone so far awry that the public officials basically laugh whenever the word “Constitution” comes up. I have offered up many a seriously worded prayer along the lines of Psalm 109: 6-13 for the demise of certain political figures (along the lines of “not my will but Yours…but I’d sure appreciate it if those mocking You could be permanently silenced").

Interestingly...when I'm at a NJ2AS meeting...few visitors (usually local pols) like discussing the fact that the 2nd Amendment not only guarantees the keeping & bearing of arms..

...but the discharging of same in the face of tyranny.
#SecondAmendmentSolutions

[Pablo de Fleurs]

Reading a book on leadership that references, among others, Andy Stanley (son of Charles Stanley):

"Leaders provide a mental picture of a preferred future and then ask people to follow them there"

...we certainly are not heading towards a "preferred" future.

[Tania513]

I am sorry , Pandora. I feel a lot of the problem is too, is term limits, also bait and switch(Obama Care Act comes to mind). I think it is human nature for most people to worry about what personal issues, close to home, rather than the big picture.
For example, I have no children, therefore no schools to worry about, however, when someone goes into a school, and kills people, the consequences, affects us all.
The freeloaders don't give a shyt, as long as they get their free stuff, and they are going to vote for the person, who gives it to them...

[Pandora]

It's okay, Tania, no offense taken and none intended.  I get passionate, but not often angry.  (Though, I admit, sometimes it reads as angry.)

[oldcoastie6468]

It's okay, Tania, no offense taken and none intended.  I get passionate, but not often angry.  (Though, I admit, sometimes it reads as angry.)

That's the big problem with internet communications. No face, no voice inflections, just words that sometimes get misinterpreted.