It's About Liberty: A Conservative Forum
Topics => TEOTWAWKI => Topic started by: BMG on October 14, 2011, 02:53:18 PM
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Okay so I'm going to put it out there and I'm certain I'll get laughed at for my choice, but hear me out and you might decide that I'm not as nuts as my choice for a 'go to' firearm just in case civilization collapses.
Ruger 10/22. Yup...go ahead and laugh, I'll wait...
::hysterical::
Alright, now I'll explain myself. :P
1) Light weight. The carbine version weighs in at a whopping 5lbs.
2) Accurate enough to hit a grapefruit at 100 yards OFF THE SHELF (the round retains a flat trajectory out to 125 yards). Yeah, you read that right - it's a semi-auto .22 that is accurate to 100 yards off the shelf provided your shooting skills are adequate of course. When I was growing up I used to hunt small game with my Ruger 10/22 carbine. Rabbits, grouse and squirrel. I was easily able to get any of those critters within 50 yards with a head shot from my .22 with hardly ever missing. If you're not already aware, a squirrel's head is a bit larger than a $0.50 cent piece and I was easily capable of hitting a target that size every time at 50 yards.
3) Ammo is EASY to find and CHEAP. You can buy a box of 550 rounds (Remington even!) at Walmart for under $25.00. As everyone knows, your firearm becomes a glorified club once you run out of ammo. An AR-15 (.223) is sweet and all but when 500 rounds run about $250.00 for the really crappy dirty-firing-bottom-of-the-barrel stuff, well...you run out of ammo and you're left with a club.
4) Most survivalists I've read say that for such a scenario you want to have about 10,000 rounds of ammo on hand. Refer back to point #3.
5) Again, an AR-15 is a sweet rig right? You bet! But when you're faced with a total collapse of civilization and you're looking for dinner...what are you going to do with that fancy .223 when dinner is sitting next to the road in the form of a rabbit - or turkey - or some other small critter? You blast it with that AR-15 and your dinner just turned into a bloody lump of exploded flesh and bone (unless you're able to just hit the head)...in other words, whatever you're able to salvage equals a minor snack. That doesn't happen with a .22.
6) Quiet. Well, in relation to other firearms like, that aforementioned AR-15 for example. Look, civilization has collapsed right? How much attention do you want to bring to yourself while you're out hunting for dinner? Your chances of being heard while shooting your .22 are a lot less than if shooting your .223.
7) Aside from being cheap, the .22 ammo is also exceptionally light. 500 rnds weighs about 3 lbs. Whereas, 500 rnds of .223 ammo weighs about 15 lbs.
8) Contrary to popular belief, a .22 round can indeed easily kill a person (I'll use a 'person' for the metric for the purpose of illustrating this point and because it's a statistic I know). If you line three people up front to back, the .22 bullet will pass through the first 2 and lodge in the last one - potentially killing all three. As a 17 year-old growing up in Michigan, my Father used to hunt deer with a bolt action .22. He would make head shots at about 50 yards and he'd get his deer - one shot in the head every time.
Not that I advocate this in the least (because the guy doing this is extremely hard core and essentially, one in a million!), but: I've even read a story from the book, 'Bear Tales for the ages' by Larry Kaniut about an Eskimo hunter in Alaska that used to hunt polar bears with a .22. The native in question (can't remember his name now and if I recall correctly the guy was doing his hunting in the 40's) was talking about putting out a seal carcass on the ice and then hiding nearby. When the bear would come in to eat the carcass he'd take aim and shoot the bear in a specific place in the head where the skull is thinnest. He'd killed numerous bears in this manner - one shot to the head with his trusty bolt action .22.
I have pause when considering the use of a .22 against targets wearing body armor as the body armor would stop the bullet completely and the target likely wouldn't even know they'd been shot. But the inherent accuracy of the round is such that you could simply target a non-armored area. Go for the arteries in the legs or for the face, or the armpits, etc. Yeah I know - easy to say when you aren't getting shot at. But the fact of the matter is that the body armor available today is going to stop even that .223 so I don't much see the argument unless you're talking about using a .30/06 or better.
9) Inexpensive. The carbine version goes for about $200.00.
10) If you want to get better accuracy you can zero this thing in enough with after market parts to hit a quarter at 125 yards, every time (assuming you're a good shot mind you!). Don't believe that? Here's a fun link to check out:
http://www.ruger1022.com/docs/israeli_sniper.htm (http://www.ruger1022.com/docs/israeli_sniper.htm)
I doubt they'd be used as sniper rifles by the Israeli army if they weren't capable as I've just described.
As for my 10/22 I've tricked it out a bit. I've got a really nice bullpup stock on it. Not that muzzelite thing some of you might be thinking about mind you! That thing's junk! No, I'm talking about this stock here: ( http://www.wix.com/jbunting/bullpup-stock# (http://www.wix.com/jbunting/bullpup-stock#)! ). I've also put a bull barrel on it and a few other accessories. The nice thing about this rifle is that there are a lot of after market accessories you can get and everything is relatively cheap if you compare the upgrades to similar upgrades for higher power firearms. When all was said and done I put about $900.00 (which includes a large stockpile of ammo) into my 10/22. If I'd have done the same amount of upgrading to an AR-15, I'd have spent something more like $2500.00 (without having purchased any ammo yet!).
Now just because I like the Ruger 10/22 as a good all around survival, self defense weapon doesn't mean that I don't see any downside to the choice. Sure, if you are shooting through brush at your target the bullet is so light that it could get deflected by the branches and cause you to miss your target. Sure, you're not going to be shooting through walls and still taking out the enemy. Sure, it doesn't have the raw knock-down power of any of the larger calibers. Sure, you're not going to be taking down wild boar at 600 yards with this firearm. If you go with this option you'd need to be 100% able to use the weapon to it's fullest potential. That means you have to rely upon it's accuracy more than the raw power of the firearm. So you have to be a capable shooter and you have to know where you need to shoot a target in order to win the fight. You need to practice so that you can hit that quarter at 100 yards. Not like using a .223 where the bullet is capable of killing a target with one shot to the center mass. You may need to target the head instead. But one shot from a .22 to the head is going to make that target just as dead as one shot to the head from any other firearm.
Now don't get me wrong, though I'd be the wacko running around with my .22, I do still have other firearms for various reasons. The thing is, the .22 is a perfectly fine weapon in a survivalist situation (after all we aren't talking about needing a combat or battle rifle here for fighting a long term firefight with sustained 1k ammo expenditures in that one engagement or anything). You just need to be aware of its limitations, plan your tactics accordingly and try not to make it perform past its capabilities.
http://www.ruger.com/products/1022Carbine/models.html (http://www.ruger.com/products/1022Carbine/models.html)
http://www.ruger.com/products/1022Target/index.html (http://www.ruger.com/products/1022Target/index.html)
http://www.ruger.com/products/1022Compact/models.html (http://www.ruger.com/products/1022Compact/models.html)
http://www.ruger.com/products/1022Tactical/models.html (http://www.ruger.com/products/1022Tactical/models.html)
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I'm not laughing and I don't suspect you're nuts. The best firearm for any individual is the one he likes and is comfortable and accurate with.
I haven't had much experience with a .22; for my size and weight, it'd probably do well if eyesight wasn't an issue at this stage of the game, so what is good, comfortable and accurate for me is my M1 Carbine. Not going to be useful for squirrel-hunting in any aspect, though. Seeing how you are correct about that, some practice, compensating for eyes, with the .22 may be order.
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Well, considering the cost of .22 caliber ammo, you can go out and shoot a couple times a week to hone your skills and spend somewhere around $15 a month. Compare that with shooting any other firearm and if nothing else, you'll get in good practice at a very affordable price. About the only thing I can think of that would be cheaper would be an air rifle. ;D
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Well, considering the cost of .22 caliber ammo, you can go out and shoot a couple times a week to hone your skills and spend somewhere around $15 a month. Compare that with shooting any other firearm and if nothing else, you'll get in good practice at a very affordable price. About the only thing I can think of that would be cheaper would be an air rifle. ;D
Or a slingshot. ;D
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Something else to consider when choosing a firearm as your 'go to' firearm for the zombie apocalypse (or whatever the kids are calling it these days :) )...
...ammo.
Law enforcement and the Military currently (and predominantly) use 12 ga (shotgun), .223, 308, 9mm, 45 ACP and 40 S&W. For that reason, those rounds are also very popular among the citizenry of the US. Above I mentioned that I like the .22 and one of the reasons was because it is cheap to buy in quantity. Well, these other rounds would be easier to find after civilization crumbles simply because they are extremely popular and have been for a very long time. There is a huge amount of this ammo type in circulation around the country. This means that scavenging or trading for these ammo types is much more feasible than other ammo types like 375 H&H Mag or 44 Mag or something.
Again, if you run out of ammo what you have in your hands is nothing more than an expensive club.
So if you haven't settled on a firearm yet and are considering it, it may be a good idea to consider the availability of ammunition 'after the fall' especially if you aren't financially able to amass ammo now and plan to supplement your ammo stash 'after the fall' through scavenging or trading.
Just food for thought...
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I have many firearms in many calibers, and I am most accurate with my Ruger Mark II .22 target pistol, and my old Remington semi-auto .22 rifle. Came in 2nd place on the range rimfire league year before last - first time ever on a firearm league outside trap shooting. I enjoy the heck out of .22 shooting, and agree completely with your assessment of its capacity for damage when fired accurately.
I'm loathe to choose though. I enjoy all my firearms, and am well-stocked on ammo for all of them. I've looked at it as being versatile, rather than needing to pick one. But I s'pose when TSHTF, it'll matter when I expend one single round of anything. I'd better decide under what circumstances I'm going to consume and preserve rounds of which caliber/gauge.
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Oh, not that I'm disparaging any of the other firearm types out there. This post was more for those that didn't already have a collection and a good amount of ammo for their collection or for those that had to choose in a hurry and go. If you have a choice and the rubber is hittin' the road so to speak, grab the biggest 'bang' you got that's appropriate for the situation (meaning, don't try to use a 12 ga shotgun as a sniper rifle they only have an effective range of 70 yards or so!) and don't hold back!
But in the case where you have to flee your house and can only carry so much, well - I'm grabbing the .22 first to be sure. :) Any other weapons I'd grab would depend upon the ammo post above this one - likely my .223 and 9mm because finding ammo later for them would be easier than say, my 10mm or .338. ;D
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We've stocked a lot of .45ACP because we have several 1911s; we both have M1s, so we've stocked accordingly and I'm trying and failing to remember what Gunsmith's FN49 shoots to know if the ammo is interchangeable.
So many guns, so little ability to retain the details. ::)
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Well, considering the cost of .22 caliber ammo, you can go out and shoot a couple times a week to hone your skills and spend somewhere around $15 a month. Compare that with shooting any other firearm and if nothing else, you'll get in good practice at a very affordable price. About the only thing I can think of that would be cheaper would be an air rifle. ;D
Or a slingshot. ;D
Carolina Camera: The Sling Shot Man (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ieWrWLjii0#)
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I remember that vid from another thread, Charles. Thanks!
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One of the greatest joys I had with my oldest brother was shooting the sh!t about firearms. I was always hopelessly outmatched about trivia and minutia because he had a brain wired for total recall, but when it got down to subjective stuff - like which one do you like best - I could argue wit the best of them.
My arsenal wasn't much to crow about back in those days - too many other obligations that had designs on my money. But a Ruger 10/22 was among the first-reach favorites (still is). I now have three of them, including one with a heavier match barrel and a stainless one with a folding stock and other goodies.
And I still get every bit as much fun out of shooting those as I do the other calibers.
But I still favor my Remington 870 for "cleaning house" ;D
(http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g369/J-reb/TOPFOLDclosedshotshell.jpg)
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I wanted a pistol-grip shotgun, so Gunsmith obliged me and it beat.the living.daylights. out of my wrist. Sooooo ....
....... now it has a regular shoulder stock on it.
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Here's my above-mentioned 10/22. Doesn't even look like a 10/22 anymore I know. :) But it shoots really well (capable of hitting that quarter at 100 yards) and is 1/2" longer than the minimum allowed by law (that accuracy and the shortness is achieved by the bullpup design), thus making it 26 1/2" overall length with a 16" barrel. This allows it to be brought up on target and maneuvered quickly and easily.
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(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa189/sugarlake/geared_out_AR15.jpg)
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LOL! Now that thing has some accessories - I'm not sure I'd even be able to find the trigger! The real question though is: Does it make my butt look fat? ::mooning::
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(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa189/sugarlake/geared_out_AR15.jpg)
That thing looks like it belongs on Rodeo Drive. It's over accessorized to me. But then again, I'm a simple man with simple tastes.
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It's damn stupid is what it is. I was just funnin' with BMG about the few doodads on his rifle is all.
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Well, in fairness I'm sure that it is just someone goofing because they can - and obviously, more is not better! It is pretty funny though to be sure Pandora. ;D
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Well, in fairness I'm sure that it is just someone goofing because they can - and obviously, more is not better! It is pretty funny though to be sure Pandora. ;D
I agree. ;D
Some enthusiastic but ignorant gun nut, too, maybe.
Oh! And on the FN49, it uses .308, same as the FALN sitting in our gunsafe, otherwise known as "the scary black assault rifle". :supercool:
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Well, be sure that you grab the FN49, the FALN and whatever other weapon you have the most ammo for then if nothing else...so you'll have an easier time scavenging ammo latter! ;D
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Roger that.
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(http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa189/sugarlake/geared_out_AR15.jpg)
I think I saw that in one of my kids' video games.
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I'd stay away from automatics and go with lever action rifles , pump action shotguns and revolvers .
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I think there is a good case to be made for simplicity and durability. I like everything I have, whether a wheel-gun, semi-auto, pump or lever-action. They all have a useful purpose. BMG makes a good point at the start of this thread about the popular rounds...one would expect them to be more easily obtainable. If you don't load your own (something I will be getting into later this winter) having something that shoots popular rounds makes sense. If in a SHTF environment and I am out of less popular rounds, I may have an expensive club on my hands, but I'll pump every last round out of it before that point is reached and still have other stuff to rely on.
::thumbsup::
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A .22 is indispensable for all of the reasons already given, and no collection should be without one. I have a Marlin Model 60, a Mossberg Plinkster, and a Browning Camp pistol. You can get low-noise subsonic rounds, and out of a rifle they make very little sound. There's also rounds that have no powder charge, the bullet is propelled solely by the primer. Out of a pistol they sound like a loud snap of the fingers, and out of my rifle they have essentially no sound at all. The .22 is a very versatile round.
Despite the fact that it fights above its weight class, it's still a low power round. I think a .30 caliber rifle (.308, .30-06, similar foreign calibers) is still the quintessential go-to weapon for an individual facing uncertain potential challenges.
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The Win .22 rifle (love that subsonic round!) and the Marlin 336 got that covered.
;)
In a SHTF scenario though, I think action will be closer in than not, so a trusty 12 gauge & competent handgun proficiency is a necessity I think.
In general I am of the "there is no thing such as too much" camp when it comes to ammo & guns...the only caveat I would make is be sure you have a comfort level with everything you shoot and if you keep your stuff clean and in good working order it will be good to you!
::thumbsup::
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The Guys from Knight Rifles Shoot the .950 JDJ, Extended Version (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xohy9gWz7kk#ws)
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Yeah, and his best friend is an orthopaedic.
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Holy smokes. That thing should be mounted on a turret. Nobody's shoulder is designed to absorb that.
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Yeah, and if I'm gonna mount something, why not go top shelf?
Deadliest weapons ever invented- Metal Storm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFjGbOyd2ek#ws)
;D
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As fun as the "choose just one" question is, the right answer is multiple weapons. I have a hacksaw for metal, a table saw for large flat stock, a skill saw for cutting 2X4 and quick work, a Miter saw for doing angles and belvel cuts, a jigsaw for cutting curves and holes, a saws-all for those god forsaken obs the other saws won't work on etc etc.
These are all Saws. Why would anyone need so many saws? Because they do different jobs.
I agree if you are going to own one and only one firearm, you want a .22, its the skillsaw of the bunch. However, you will not get the precision cuts, nor the fancy curves available with other choices. I would hate to hunt foul with a 22. You need a long barrel shotgun. I would hate to use the .22 wandering around the house with a potential intruder- for that I want a pistol or a short barrel shotgun. For Deer and elk you want/need a high powered rifle. So on and so forth. Pick the right tool for the job. If you have multiple jobs you will and should buy multiple tools.
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You betcha. Gotta love it, Americana. Brands of such quality and invention
that the whole of that style of tool is know by that brand name.
Along with that Skill saw one should also have a pair of Channellock's and
some Vice Grips.
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And if anyone is pricing ammo, one can purchase a 440 rd can of 7.62X54R ammo for $89. A 640 rd can of 7.62X39 can be had for about $125. Lots of shooting to be had for that price.
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And if anyone is pricing ammo, one can purchase a 440 rd can of 7.62X54R ammo for $89. A 640 rd can of 7.62X39 can be had for about $125. Lots of shooting to be had for that price.
I have advocated the Mosin-Nagant rifle and 7.62x54R cartridge here on more than one occasion. It certainly doesn't offer the firepower of the more "sexy" options like ARs and AKs, but it is an inexpensive, simple, reliable rifle that fires a potent round.
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Print this:
A Working Assault Rifle Made With a 3-D Printer (http://www.blacklistednews.com/A_Working_Assault_Rifle_Made_With_a_3-D_Printer/20721/0/0/0/Y/M.html?morestories=obinsite)
****
Link (http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2012-07/working-assault-rifle-made-3-d-printer)
While there are still some details to sort out, it's pretty clear that making weapons at home using 3-D printers from commonly available materials is going to become much more commonplace in the near future. In fact, as 3-D printing technology matures, materials feedstock improves, and designs for weapons proliferate, we might soon see the day when nearly everyone will be able to print the weapons of their choice in the numbers they desire, all within the privacy of their own homes
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Replicator tech, Star Trek via Skunk Works. ::thumbsup::
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How many can you make?
As many as you have ABS feedstock for.
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:'(
3-D printed gun project derailed by legal woes
http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/futureoftech/3-d-printed-gun-project-derailed-legal-woes-6213570
After raising thousands of dollars to develop a free, 3-D-printable handgun, a group calling itself Defense Distributed has had to put its plans on hold, after the company providing their printing hardware refused to do business with them. It’s an early episode in what is likely to be a long controversy.
Defense Distributed is a loosely organized group that intends to explore the possibility of creating weapons entirely using 3-D printed parts — and providing the files to do so freely online. They are unrelated to another recent project that partially built an assault rifle that way, but the concept is similar.
The group originally tried to raise money to develop the Wiki Weapon, as they call it, on the crowd-funding website IndieGoGo. The site pulled the plug, however, before the $20,000 the group was hoping to collect was pledged. Undeterred, Defense Distributed solicited donations in the Bitcoin virtual currency, and soon achieved their funding goal.
With the money, they leased a powerful 3-D printer from a company called Stratasys. But before they even had a chance to take the device out of its box, Stratasys caught wind of what its hardware was going to be used for and canceled the contract, sending someone to pick up the printer immediately.
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Hmm, StrataSys is a local company here in Eden Prairie, a Crump led outfit.
http://www.stratasys.com/Corporate/About-Stratasys/Board-Members.aspx (http://www.stratasys.com/Corporate/About-Stratasys/Board-Members.aspx)
But their insider ownership percentage is low and they are mostly held by institutional investors. Look to be fairly aggressive in acquisitions too.
http://finviz.com/quote.ashx?t=SSYS (http://finviz.com/quote.ashx?t=SSYS)
They can tell the BATFE to pound sand, man I loath bureaucratic busybodies! ::mooning::
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They are afraid the Bureau of Wrecking Your Life will subpoena them.
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Hmm, StrataSys is a local company here in Eden Prairie, a Crump led outfit.
http://www.stratasys.com/Corporate/About-Stratasys/Board-Members.aspx (http://www.stratasys.com/Corporate/About-Stratasys/Board-Members.aspx)
But their insider ownership percentage is low and they are mostly held by institutional investors. Look to be fairly aggressive in acquisitions too.
http://finviz.com/quote.ashx?t=SSYS (http://finviz.com/quote.ashx?t=SSYS)
They can tell the BATFE to pound sand, man I loath bureaucratic busybodies! ::mooning::
They are afraid the Bureau of Wrecking Your Life will subpoena them.
Coalition to Stop Gun Violence v University of Texas law student Cody Wilson (http://www.examiner.com/article/csgv-becoming-increasingly-frantic-over-printable-gun)
St. Louis Gun Rights Examiner recently discussed the "Wiki Weapon" project, organized by University of Texas law student Cody Wilson, to develop a design for a firearm that can be printed on a 3-D printer. This design would be published for free on the Internet, and made available to anyone with Internet access. The project has hit a speed bump for the moment, because the manufacturer of the high-end 3-D printer revoked the lease of the printer when it got wind of the nature of the project. Wilson has vowed to not let this stop him, and is exploring his options.
...
Thursday, CSGV's hysteria climbed another notch, as evidenced on another Facebook post, calling Wilson an "insurrectionist." In fact, Mr. Wilson has now been honored with a spot on CSGV's "Insurrectionism Timeline: ...
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CSGV obviously is devoid of sense, since it appears to be targeting lawful law-abiding citizens their 2nd Amendment rights when criminals flaunt the law. They foolish believe that a society without any gun rights would be preferable, sure, if you like a no holds barred police state.
These people are evil.
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CSGV obviously is devoid of sense, since it appears to be targeting lawful law-abiding citizens their 2nd Amendment rights when criminals flaunt the law. They foolish believe that a society without any gun rights would be preferable, sure, if you like a no holds barred police state.
These people are evil.
These are people that want to be taken care off by the government,so a police state would be a good thing for them.
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CSGV obviously is devoid of sense, since it appears to be targeting lawful law-abiding citizens their 2nd Amendment rights when criminals flaunt the law. They foolish believe that a society without any gun rights would be preferable, sure, if you like a no holds barred police state.
These people are evil.
These are people that want to be taken care off by the government,so a police state would be a good thing for them.
Then they should just rob a 7-11, get arrested, tried and convicted and enjoy free room and board in prison and leave the rest of us the hell alone!
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CSGV obviously is devoid of sense, since it appears to be targeting lawful law-abiding citizens their 2nd Amendment rights when criminals flaunt the law. They foolish believe that a society without any gun rights would be preferable, sure, if you like a no holds barred police state.
These people are evil.
These are people that want to be taken care off by the government,so a police state would be a good thing for them.
Then they should just rob a 7-11, get arrested, tried and convicted and enjoy free room and board in prison and leave the rest of us the hell alone!
And then who would vote for the liberals?? They need these losers.
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CSGV obviously is devoid of sense, since it appears to be targeting lawful law-abiding citizens their 2nd Amendment rights when criminals flaunt the law. They foolish believe that a society without any gun rights would be preferable, sure, if you like a no holds barred police state.
These people are evil.
These are people that want to be taken care off by the government,so a police state would be a good thing for them.
Then they should just rob a 7-11, get arrested, tried and convicted and enjoy free room and board in prison and leave the rest of us the hell alone!
And then who would vote for the liberals?? They need these losers.
Not my problem. ::evil::
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By Clay Dillow 12.21.2012
http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2012-12/qa-cody-wilson-wiki-weapons-project-3-d-printed-future-firearms (http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2012-12/qa-cody-wilson-wiki-weapons-project-3-d-printed-future-firearms)