It's About Liberty: A Conservative Forum
Topics => Faith & Family => Topic started by: radioman on January 08, 2014, 12:42:59 PM
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Should Christians be able to drink? I first thought I would ask "Can Christians drink?"
That question (can), probably is better context, but in reality, we can do anything we want anyway, so I changed it to 'should'.
As Christians, we are called to be a 'light' in the darkness, so, where does 'drinking' fall into this?
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Jesus drank. He even provided drink. If we are to become Christlike, I see no reason why drinking alcohol should be considered a sin, so long as its done in moderation, or done with 100% self-responsibility for consequences.
When liquor becomes your god - that is when it becomes sinful. I think that there is basis for some sectarian prohibition on drinking because of the addictive quality, and the sinful consequences of addiction.
But that goes for any addiction, not just booze. When anything takes over your life and crowds out God, that's sinful.
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"Should" Christians be able to overeat -- engage in gluttony? Become anorexic? Become unhealthily obsessed with an exercise-activity? Same issue, different vice/sin.
Each item, taken or done in moderation, is good for us; in excess, bad. Everything in moderation.
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Jesus drank. He even provided drink.
I don't remember the scripture where Jesus drank. I know he turned water into wine. I know he drank the vinegar while he was on the Cross.
Are you being a 'Light' in the world of darkness while drinking?
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There really is no room to argue for a prohibition by scripture. Drunkenness is clearly opposed. Alcohol is clearly endorsed in a couple of places. Moderation is key.
(Just ONE example from scripture.)
1.1 Timothy 5:23
Stop drinking only water, and use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.
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Jesus drank. He even provided drink.
I don't remember the scripture where Jesus drank. I know he turned water into wine. I know he drank the vinegar while he was on the Cross.
Are you being a 'Light' in the world of darkness while drinking?
Honey, if not for the gift of red wine, I would bring no 'Light' to the world of darkness atall.
Seriously, though; how is a glass of wine or beer or a tipple of fine liqueur adding to the world of darkness or depriving it of my 'Light'?
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Jesus drank. He even provided drink.
I don't remember the scripture where Jesus drank. I know he turned water into wine. I know he drank the vinegar while he was on the Cross.
Are you being a 'Light' in the world of darkness while drinking?
The scriptures say he did:
Matthew 11:18-20
King James Version (KJV)
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a devil.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.
20 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
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Jesus drank. He even provided drink.
I don't remember the scripture where Jesus drank.
After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, “Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
ETA: The Disciples gave him the cup, assuming he would drink as he always had. Instead, he gave it back to them, telling them that he would not drink wine again until Kingdom Come.
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As most have stated, moderation is the key. This, and let your conscience be your guide.
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As most have stated, moderation is the key. This, and let your conscience be your guide.
I was raised in a Methodist church, and they taught moderation. But moderation can be and is abused too much of the time.
I wouldn't advise a liberal to let your conscience be your guide. They already do that to the nth degree, and you see where that got us.
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But moderation can be and is abused too much of the time.
Hunh? By definition, moderation precludes abuse or extremes.
What, may I ask, prompted this line of discussion, radioman?
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So... now that I've given a scriptural example of Jesus stating that he drinks wine, I'm curious as to your response Radioman.
As Pan, I'm curious to know your thoughts, as opposed to just knowing your question.
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IDP, you might find it interesting that, beginning in the late 1800's some preachers began to deny that the scripture you provided had alcohol in it. The word used in the original language (Greek) could go either way. It was an all inclusive term, literally meaning the fruit of the vine, and does not comment one way or the other on alcohol content. The timing of the year makes it too early for the harvest and fresh wine, and the Passover celebration was required to use a sweet wine, so their argument is STILL not valid, but it is why I use the more obscure scripture where there is a VERY clear statement that Jesus came drinking wine.
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IDP, you might find it interesting that, beginning in the late 1800's some preachers began to deny that the scripture you provided had alcohol in it. The word used in the original language (Greek) could go either way. It was an all inclusive term, literally meaning the fruit of the vine, and does not comment one way or the other on alcohol content. The timing of the year makes it too early for the harvest and fresh wine, and the Passover celebration was required to use a sweet wine, so their argument is STILL not valid, but it is why I use the more obscure scripture where there is a VERY clear statement that Jesus came drinking wine.
I think that in organized religion, there is an ever-present risk of preachers interpreting scripture to fit their own moral code. In other words, to influence or control the behavior of their flock. A preacher wanting to influence his flock away from alcoholic spirits has an interest in finding a way to justify it scripturally, even to the point of incredulity.
Everything we know about the culture of the times suggests that the drinking of wine was the norm. For those preachers in the late 1800's to use the ambiguity of the term "fruit of the vine" as a justification for theorizing that Jesus did not drink alcohol defies the application of common sense. Your noting that the Passover required wine is yet another indication. Airtight, in my opinion. I don't see how it could be denied that Jesus drank wine.
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Everything we know about the culture of the times suggests that the drinking of wine was the norm.
And also because the water was "iffy", as I understand it.
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I'm not sure where I got it from (I was raised Southern Baptist), but I always thought demon alcohol was frowned upon because drinking was likely to lead to sinning. Losing inhibitions and all. Same with dancing.
For the record, I'm fond of drinking and dancing with the wife. Of course, it takes me a few beers to dance to the music she likes.
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It would help for all to view the video "How Beer Saved The World". It is humorous but does illustrate that because of greatly polluted water in times of yore, brewing beer made a healthful drink owing to the boiling of the nasty water. To quote my FIL, "Water is only for bathing, and even then not too often."
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So... now that I've given a scriptural example of Jesus stating that he drinks wine, I'm curious as to your response Radioman.
I believe the verse you listed can be interpreted either way. Preachers can sway their congregations either way as well.
I don't like the principle of moderation because there is no definitive threshold of what is and not is, is.
There have been many people purpose to drink moderately and up being a drunk. They took the moderation road.
There are verses that tell us to run away from sin as fast and far as possible. Since, we probably are all in agreement that being a drunk is a sin, then, the common sense principle of running away from the sin of being drunk, is to not drink at all.
Now a counter argument could be made for using a credit card. Do we all agree that being in debt is a sin? Then, a similar argument could be made that we shouldn't use a credit card, because it would make it too easy to get in too much debt. Now, I know that I can use a credit card, because I have total confidence in my ability to never get into serious debt, but I also know, that there are a lot of people who purpose to not get in serious debt when they get their credit card, to only wind up in serious debt. So, can a person have total confidence in not becoming a drunk when they start drinking?
So, is using a credit card a sin?
I believe there are no right or wrong answers.
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I have total confidence, because I read and pray every day, I will not become a drunk. The two scriptures below is clear indication of moderation.... But I do agree, if you don't trust yourself to be diligent, in all things, then best leave the wine alone. I really don't care what others opinion of what is moderate, these are personal decisions to be made and arguing moderation is akin to explaining what a "living wage" is.
Titus 2:3
Older women likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good,
1 Timothy 3:8
Deacons likewise must be dignified, not double-tongued, not addicted to much wine, not greedy for dishonest gain.
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There's a difference between ones concept of what is wise, and sin.
Avoiding alcohol because it may lead to sin is a wise choice from the point of view that eliminating temptations reduces the likelihood of sin. But that doesn't mean that partaking in alcohol is sin.
Walking out the front door can lead to sin. Doesn't make it sinful.
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There's a difference between ones concept of what is wise, and sin.
Avoiding alcohol because it may lead to sin is a wise choice from the point of view that eliminating temptations reduces the likelihood of sin. But that doesn't mean that partaking in alcohol is sin.
Walking out the front door can lead to sin. Doesn't make it sinful.
Perfect understanding......er... ditto!!
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I abused alcohol in my youth. I think that I did that because, although my parents enjoyed alcohol in moderation (I never ever saw them abuse it), they did not introduce me to it. Instead, my friends did. Not good. And, as long as I am in a confessional mood, I experimented with marijuana in my youth, as well.
But fortunately, and by the grace of God, I grew up. I think that I was maybe 23 when I decided to never abuse alcohol (or use marijuana) again. And I never have since. Not once.
And through it all, I was and am a Christian. I became a Christian when I was a child...ten, I think. So, I was a Christian while I was abusing alcohol and smoking dope.
And that's just it...Christians aren't perfect. Merely saved and forgiven. We are, like everyone, born into sin. If we become saved, truly saved, then it is our goal to become more like Christ with each passing day. It is, by definition, not achievable but it is a goal nonetheless. Those who are truly saved work toward it all the while knowing that they will never get there. There will be setbacks along the way...we will backslide from time to time. But loving Christ (because He loved us first) means that we will not stop trying to follow His example in all things.
This is one of the more difficult things for non-believers to come to grips with. They mistakenly believe that we think that because we are Christians we are perfect. They seem to relish any opportunity to call Christians hypocrites. And...some of us are. But I choose to believe that the hypocritical Christians are those who just need to grow a bit more in the right direction.
At any rate...I know what sin is because I am a sinner. But I also know that the alcohol that I enjoy (not abuse) now, the act of consuming it...savoring the experience...is not a sin. There is still sin in my life and there always will be but drinking in small amounts, something considerably short of intoxication, isn't sin.
So there it is.
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I'm not sure where I got it from (I was raised Southern Baptist), but I always thought demon alcohol was frowned upon because drinking was likely to lead to sinning. Losing inhibitions and all. Same with dancing.
For the record, I'm fond of drinking and dancing with the wife. Of course, it takes me a few beers to dance to the music she likes.
"Shall we dance, shall we dance, shall we dance........".
Dancing in harmony with the proper partner encourages a period of joy. Any man that does not understand that does not understand women, including his wife, for the most part. It's the lead-in to the horizontal mambo, baybee.
It's a shame most men do not get that the feet moving in time to the music set the hips in motion as well. It is understandable to me that in some denominations, dancing was banned as a precursor to sin. As in all things, these desires must and can be channeled. Move in harmony with your wife, feet tapping, hips swaying, a breath on her neck and a joyful smile, encircling her waist and stepping with her through shared moves and you'll be a *happy* twosome in the very near future.
It's the best aphrodisiac known to womankind. You want evidence? Remember your nightclub/bar days? Who had the most women in attendance? It was the happily dancing man.
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Avoiding alcohol because it may lead to sin is a wise choice from the point of view that eliminating temptations reduces the likelihood of sin. But that doesn't mean that partaking in alcohol is sin.
"But that doesn't mean that partaking in alcohol is sin", even if you realize that it could lead to a state of drunkness.
"Walking out the front door can lead to sin. Doesn't make it sinful." Not a good example. There is not much spoken about walking through doors. You could sin without walking through doors, or you could sin walking through doors.
How about, would it be wise to take your secretary to lunch? Not necessarily a sin to eat a lunch, right? Is that a wise thing to do if you want to avoid the temptations of sin?
I get it. You come down on the side that drinking is not a sin.
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So there it is.
Alcohol has already burned you once and yet you're still willing to partake, and still believe that drinking is not a sin?
Ok, I get it.
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A little harsh, r-man. There are those who have conquered their temptations and those who know onto which ground to not step.
This is not for you to judge, doncha think?
You choose your path, others will choose theirs and deal with the consequences.
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Avoiding alcohol because it may lead to sin is a wise choice from the point of view that eliminating temptations reduces the likelihood of sin. But that doesn't mean that partaking in alcohol is sin.
"But that doesn't mean that partaking in alcohol is sin", even if you realize that it could lead to a state of drunkness.
"Walking out the front door can lead to sin. Doesn't make it sinful." Not a good example. There is not much spoken about walking through doors. You could sin without walking through doors, or you could sin walking through doors.
How about, would it be wise to take your secretary to lunch? Not necessarily a sin to eat a lunch, right? Is that a wise thing to do if you want to avoid the temptations of sin?
I get it. You come down on the side that drinking is not a sin.
I don't have a secretary, but if I did, I wouldn't hesitate to take her to lunch. What kind of a husband am I if I cannot engage with women without being tempted to sleep with them? Let's even assume she's a hottie. Appreciation of female beauty and making a move toward infidelity aren't even in the same universe to me. Not even close.
I don't come down on the side that drinking is not a sin. I come down on the side that temptation does not equal sin. Further, liquor does not tempt me beyond casual enjoyment under proper circumstances. So liquor isn't even a temptation to me. It is no more tempting than walking out the door to experience whatever the day may bring.
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Ditto what IDP and Pan said.
I can see where it can be handy to make blanket statements that drinking or dancing or whatever is a sin because you avoid the whole uncomfortable feeling and internal debate when you're tempted.
I think it's best to avoid sources of temptation but what's a temptation is different for every person.
Rather than trying to define certain activities as sinful for everyone I think it's best to approach it with the question of "what kind of person do I want to be?"
I remember when my oldest ones were young and they wanted to know if it would be a sin to read a certain book or watch a certain movie or tv show. I said assuming for a moment that they aren't are those the kind of things you want to fill your mind with?
I can enjoy one glass of wine with a fabulous Italian meal and I'm not sinning; I'm not even tempted to sin.
And, yes, I believe Jesus drank. He also ate with sinners and did all those things that others were quick to point out as sinful. He told us what to do to deserve the Kingdom; I don't remember not drinking being one of them.
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Sounds like a Hank Williams Jr song in the making...
"If there ain't no booze in heaven, then send me right to Hell".
Is this where this going?
::facepalm::
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I think Radioman's position is respectable. A lot of good Christian people avoid alcohol for exactly the reasons he states. Given the destructiveness of it, I think the existence of alcohol is obviously a net negative. Avoiding it entirely as a way to avoid sin is wise in the way that avoiding sex is a surefire way to avoid pregnancy. A firewall of 100% abstinence cannot be breeched.
That said, the question was not should a Christian drink, or is it wise for a Christian to drink, but rather whether a Christian should be able to drink. I assumed that to mean (and I think Radioman's follow-up reinforces the assumption) that he was asking whether biblical Christianity allows drinking.
We are commanded to avoid sin, not to eliminate all possibility of temptation from life. I don't see any way to read the bible that avoids the reality that Jesus drank wine as did his disciples with his approval, and that Hebrew custom (Jesus was a rabbi after all) required wine for religious ceremony.
So it is my opinion that biblical Christianity definitely allows drinking. If someone can make the case otherwise, I'm willing to listen.
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A little harsh, r-man. There are those who have conquered their temptations and those who know onto which ground to not step.
This is not for you to judge, doncha think?
You choose your path, others will choose theirs and deal with the consequences.
I didn't mean for it to sound harsh. Sometimes, on the internet keyboard, it may sound more harsh than intended. @Trap that certainly is the case. Only asking a question, as sometimes, we can be more confident in what we think we can do or not do. I'm certainly not passing judgment on anyone's opinion.
I too have strong confidences, but pride does come before a fall, and sometimes, it is wise to not play too close to temptations.
Like IDP stated, he is not tempted by liquor, I'm not either. I still choose to not partake at all, and I realize that is my decision.
I also would have no problem taking a secretary to lunch, as far as temptation is concerned, but I would avoid that also. Sometimes bad things can happen beyond our control, even when we think that we're in control, so not letting ourselves be in any compromising position is the best position. IOW, the best way to handle unintended consequences is to not participate to begin with.
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A little harsh, r-man. There are those who have conquered their temptations and those who know onto which ground to not step.
This is not for you to judge, doncha think?
You choose your path, others will choose theirs and deal with the consequences.
I didn't mean for it to sound harsh. Sometimes, on the internet keyboard, it may sound more harsh than intended. @Trap that certainly is the case. Only asking a question, as sometimes, we can be more confident in what we think we can do or not do. I'm certainly not passing judgment on anyone's opinion.
I too have strong confidences, but pride does come before a fall, and sometimes, it is wise to not play too close to temptations.
Like IDP stated, he is not tempted by liquor, I'm not either. I still choose to not partake at all, and I realize that is my decision.
I also would have no problem taking a secretary to lunch, as far as temptation is concerned, but I would avoid that also. Sometimes bad things can happen beyond our control, even when we think that we're in control, so not letting ourselves be in any compromising position is the best position. IOW, the best way to handle unintended consequences is to not participate to begin with.
I can see no argument with that.
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I also would have no problem taking a secretary to lunch, as far as temptation is concerned, but I would avoid that also. Sometimes bad things can happen beyond our control, even when we think that we're in control, so not letting ourselves be in any compromising position is the best position. IOW, the best way to handle unintended consequences is to not participate to begin with.
Our pastor demanded that his office have a door with windows and a window into the adjoining office, for a similar reason. He also takes the step of never meeting with a female at the church alone. His wife, his mother, or another female staffer will always be on the other side of that window when he meets with a woman.
He's not as concerned with being tempted, but rather concerned with maintaining the strictest discipline when it comes to his role as pastor, and ensuring that no claims of impropriety can ever be leveled at him.
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He's not as concerned with being tempted, but rather concerned with maintaining the strictest discipline when it comes to his role as pastor, and ensuring that no claims of impropriety can ever be leveled at him.
Unfortunately in today's climate, that is necessary and is called "anus protectus", or "To thine own ass be true."
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He's not as concerned with being tempted, but rather concerned with maintaining the strictest discipline when it comes to his role as pastor, and ensuring that no claims of impropriety can ever be leveled at him.
Unfortunately in today's climate, that is necessary and is called "anus protectus", or "To thine own ass be true."
I like to keep it simple. CYA.
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Ditto what IDP and Pan said.
I can see where it can be handy to make blanket statements that drinking or dancing or whatever is a sin because you avoid the whole uncomfortable feeling and internal debate when you're tempted.
I think it's best to avoid sources of temptation but what's a temptation is different for every person.
Rather than trying to define certain activities as sinful for everyone I think it's best to approach it with the question of "what kind of person do I want to be?"
I remember when my oldest ones were young and they wanted to know if it would be a sin to read a certain book or watch a certain movie or tv show. I said assuming for a moment that they aren't are those the kind of things you want to fill your mind with?
I can enjoy one glass of wine with a fabulous Italian meal and I'm not sinning; I'm not even tempted to sin.
And, yes, I believe Jesus drank. He also ate with sinners and did all those things that others were quick to point out as sinful. He told us what to do to deserve the Kingdom; I don't remember not drinking being one of them.
I belongs to a church once where avoidance was advocated for many different things....Drinking being one of those things. There were teachings, lessons I appreciated, I enjoyed the fellowship, so while I disagreed to the one size fits all, as I believe like LV that temptation is different with each individual.....and the point LV makes was verified, because even though it was a strict fundamentalist church, the pastor had an affair with the piano player, I found a deacon with the same issue, so the " no drinking", "no this" "no that" really didn't keep temptation at bay. It is up to each individual, with help from God, to keep your moral compass intact.
Most of you know what I do for a living, but I have never once been tempted to cheat. My fear and respect of God wouldn't allow it, and maybe some shouldn't put themselves in my environment, but it is an individual's decision.