It's About Liberty: A Conservative Forum

Topics => Entertainment => Topic started by: trapeze on October 22, 2014, 12:38:14 AM

Title: But Is It Plagiarism?
Post by: trapeze on October 22, 2014, 12:38:14 AM: Me? I'm not enough of a music person to know. That is, I'm not a musician nor am I anything approaching a legal beagle re copyright law.

So, I'll toss this out for discussion.

I saw this posted on a FB thread this evening. I had never heard of it before by apparently this has been discussed for a rather long time.

It seems that the estate of Randy California filed suit against the members of Led Zeppelin over the songwriting credit for "Stairway to Heaven." They claim that the tune originated on the instrumental "Taurus" by Spirit.

Taurus- Spirit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd8AVbwB_6E#ws)

More...

Led Zeppelin Plagiarism Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyvLsutfI5M#)

Things being what they are (poor and obscure vs. rich and powerful) the Spirit lawsuit won't go anywhere but it is interesting.
Title: Re: But Is It Plagiarism?
Post by: IronDioPriest on October 22, 2014, 07:19:42 AM: I can't see how it is, re; "Stairway". The only similarity is a four-chord arpeggiated progression. Nothing that comes before or after it is similar in any way. And it is a common half-step chromatic root-note progression to boot - something that is used in all kinds of songs. If those sort of similarities are going to start being picked apart for derivative use claims, damn near half of the history of rock-n-roll will be suspect.

Zep have been accused of all kinds of plagiarism before though, and many of those accusations seem to have a LOT more merit. Blind justice shouldn't account for that in the case of "Stairway", but who knows?
Title: Re: But Is It Plagiarism?
Post by: ToddF on October 22, 2014, 09:05:15 AM: Robert Plant stealing the "squeeze my lemon" line from Robert Johnson is plagiarism, as well as many other documented lifting of riffs and lyrics from other blues standards.

This is inspiration, at most. I've heard before, people saying Stairway was stolen from Spirit. If this is it, I'm not impressed in the least. Then again, I wasn't impressed with the claims that George Harrison stole My Sweet Lord from He's So Fine, but at least that was ever so slightly more convincing.
Title: Re: But Is It Plagiarism?
Post by: Alphabet Soup on October 22, 2014, 11:20:17 AM: I've been fascinated in two things in my life (well three if you include chasing girls), music and building cars. I've never been worth a damn at any of them (but that never stopped me).

I've heard (relentlessly) about LZ's plagiarism and my opinion is......I don't give a damn.

I always looked at music and cars the same way - you start with a bucket of bolts and build it your way. There's nothing new under the sun - we all simply rearrange things to suit ourselves. If one were interested enough one could examine "Babe I'm gonna Leave You" and find its roots in another tune. Same with "The Hunter", same with all of them. They all have intertwined roots because musicians influence musicians.

Same with cars. Even with "scratch-built" customs someone will look at it and say, "Notice how the taillights look just like a '62 Caddie?" "And that roofline looks like they ripped it from a '83 Dodge". The natural inclination is for our senses to seek out the similarities and harmonies.

I will readily admit that Jimmie Page was a flagrant abuser. And I have no doubt that sooner or later a smooth-talking shyster will convince a jury in a lawsuit against him. But I listened to that u-toob and my takeaway? In every case the work-product that Page/Plant delivered was significantly superior in every way to the original.

They took stuff and made it better - in some cases they made it timeless.
Title: Re: But Is It Plagiarism?
Post by: Libertas on October 22, 2014, 11:24:11 AM: Quote from: MNHawk on October 22, 2014, 09:05:15 AM
Robert Plant stealing the "squeeze my lemon" line from Robert Johnson is plagiarism, as well as many other documented lifting of riffs and lyrics from other blues standards.

This is inspiration, at most. I've heard before, people saying Stairway was stolen from Spirit. If this is it, I'm not impressed in the least. Then again, I wasn't impressed with the claims that George Harrison stole My Sweet Lord from He's So Fine, but at least that was ever so slightly more convincing.

That's for sure! I think everybody needs to relax, but as in all media/intellectual property stuff...the ever-increasing litigious nature of human beings make allegations like this possible, and the money makes it certain.

But I agree with 'Soup...unless somebody just took something verbatim and didn't do hardly anything to alter it or make it better, STFD & STFU!
Title: Re: But Is It Plagiarism?
Post by: ToddF on October 22, 2014, 11:54:16 AM: You might say that Manfred Mann was known for taking crappy Bruce Springsteen tunes and making them masterpieces (Spirits in the Night, Blinded by the Light, For You), but ya still have to pay Bruce for using his tunes.

That is really what Zeppelin is guilty of.
Title: Re: But Is It Plagiarism?
Post by: IronDioPriest on October 22, 2014, 12:11:26 PM: Typically chord progressions are not protected by copyright. You have to prove that the opportunity existed to steal (likelihood of exposure to the original prior to subsequent derivative authorship) and that the accused version is stylistically taken from the original in question. (I'm no authority, but I remember this from a music business class I took in 2003).

Listen to this mashup of Alan Parson's "Eye in the Sky" and Lady Antebellum's "Need You Now." Both smash hits, with vast swaths of the song following the exact same chord progression, in the exact same key, in the exact same tempo. No plagiarism there. If that's not plagiarism, I don't see how this four-chord progression by Zep would be considered to be - unless somehow there's proof that Page heard the original, and copied it on purpose.

Lady Antebellum Alan Parsons Project Mashup (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhUE9uT5tTI#)
Title: Re: But Is It Plagiarism?
Post by: AlanS on October 22, 2014, 06:54:32 PM: Quote from: IronDioPriest on October 22, 2014, 07:19:42 AM
I can't see how it is, re; "Stairway". The only similarity is a four-chord arpeggiated progression. Nothing that comes before or after it is similar in any way. And it is a common half-step chromatic root-note progression to boot - something that is used in all kinds of songs. If those sort of similarities are going to start being picked apart for derivative use claims, damn near half of the history of rock-n-roll will be suspect.

You lost me at "how it is".
Title: Re: But Is It Plagiarism?
Post by: trapeze on October 22, 2014, 09:18:51 PM: Quote from: IronDioPriest on October 22, 2014, 12:11:26 PM
...I don't see how this four-chord progression by Zep would be considered to be - unless somehow there's proof that Page heard the original, and copied it on purpose.

Actually, that's one of the specific charges... (http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Led-Zeppelin-Faces-Pennsylvania-Lawsuit-Over-Stairway-279720172.html)

Quote
They assert that Page stole the tune—particularly the guitar chords—from Spirit’s instrumental song "Taurus," which the late Wolfe wrote. While Zeppelin toured with them in 1968, Page was able to become familiar with their music. As a result, they discredit the story of how Page wrote “Stairway” while secluded in a remote cabin in Wales.

Not saying it's a valid claim or anything.
Title: Re: But Is It Plagiarism?
Post by: IronDioPriest on October 22, 2014, 09:25:24 PM: Quote from: trapeze on October 22, 2014, 09:18:51 PM
Quote from: IronDioPriest on October 22, 2014, 12:11:26 PM
...I don't see how this four-chord progression by Zep would be considered to be - unless somehow there's proof that Page heard the original, and copied it on purpose.

Actually, that's one of the specific charges... (http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Led-Zeppelin-Faces-Pennsylvania-Lawsuit-Over-Stairway-279720172.html)

Quote
They assert that Page stole the tune—particularly the guitar chords—from Spirit’s instrumental song "Taurus," which the late Wolfe wrote. While Zeppelin toured with them in 1968, Page was able to become familiar with their music. As a result, they discredit the story of how Page wrote “Stairway” while secluded in a remote cabin in Wales.

Not saying it's a valid claim or anything.

That's exactly the thing that will satisfy the requirement if they can prove it. Interesting stuff.
Title: Re: But Is It Plagiarism?
Post by: ToddF on October 23, 2014, 08:35:20 AM: It took them 44 years to find a similarity? This is nothing but piglet children trying to score.

This is American lawsuit trolling at it's worst.

They "stole the chords?" Give me a bleeping break.
Title: Re: But Is It Plagiarism?
Post by: ToddF on October 23, 2014, 08:43:19 AM: You want to know of a 40 year old lawsuit of this type that did have merit. Check out the story of A White Shade of Pale.

Keith Reid wrote the lyrics.
Gary Brooker wrote the melody around those lyrics.

Song credit, Reid/Brooker. Case closed, right?

But wait, who wrote the haunting counter melody played on the organ. The melody that had new royalties flowing into Brooker's bank account, thanks to it being a popular ring tone?

That was Matthew Fisher, at the time, getting absolutely nothing from the fact of his melody being a popular ringtone. Enter the lawsuit. A lawsuit that was won by Fisher.