It's About Liberty: A Conservative Forum
Topics => Politics/Legislation/Elections => Topic started by: whimsicalmamapig on September 25, 2015, 08:37:47 PM
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Just a question: is all the angst against her coming from the conservatives or just those establishment types who also want to rid the race of trump.
what is the feeling here, I keep reading viscious attacks from those who say she is not conservative enough but I also think there is a concerted effort to remove her by the jeb factions?
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I'm so fatigued of it all. So jaded and cynical. Every daggum politician and wannabe politician seems to have a history of non-conservative positions and philosophies untethered from the constitution - which should not just be their primary concern, but their ONLY concern.
We can judge these people on their past positions, and weigh that against their current rhetoric. It's all we can do. Where current rhetoric and past positions differ, we have to make a judgment as to whether we believe them now, or think they're pandering.
I felt like Fiorina's plea for the character of our nation being defined by what we do now with Planned Parenthood was genuine and heartfelt. I like her command of foreign policy. I like her wit. I like her articulation. She's obviously studied what she needs to know to run for president, and she knows who her audience is.
I can see myself casting a vote for her if she somehow gets the nomination. I'd still rather vote for Ted Cruz. He's in love with the constitution and the country, and he's as smart as they come.
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Look at her record at HP and decide if you think she's executive material
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I'm so fatigued of it all. So jaded and cynical. Every daggum politician and wannabe politician seems to have a history of non-conservative positions and philosophies untethered from the constitution - which should not just be their primary concern, but their ONLY concern.
^^^ THAT ^^^^
Fiorina apparently supported the individual mandate in Obamacare. (http://hotair.com/archives/2015/09/24/uh-oh-carly-fiorina-supported-an-individual-mandate-for-health-coverage-in-2013/) So. Yeah.
I might vote for her just as being "anti establishment" enough - but come on - she has the same connections the the elite and power mad as Trump has. She MIGHT have actual principals, or not. Its hard to really say. There is no White horse in the race. There is no one can save you. Now say it. Now deal with that reality and figure out what your next steps are.
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thanks for the feedback, it is pretty much how I feel, especially the part about no white knight on the horizon.
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Re; her support for an individual mandate, for what it's worth, she's saying she never supported the Obamacare mandate, and was supportive of the Heritage Foundation's plan of a mandate for catastrophic coverage in order to prevent taxpayer funding of uninsured people going to the emergency room for their primary medical care.
It's a mandate, and a mandate to buy insurance is not related to liberty - but if she's telling the truth (seems very plausible), she never supported the Obamacare mandate. Which means it's being spun by the Bushies to knock her back down.
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I have been spending the evening on the NR site and many a poster there is adament about torpedoing her. It is an attack the rings more of a lefty troll attack in flavor and style.
I am just trying to decide if it is being motivated by really ideologically pure conservatives or bushies in disguise as the attacks are all on her lack of conservative chops.
She seems to have more spine than most others on the stage but I am afraid they are engaging in the circular firing squad already which means the only ones left will be the 2 with the most money, jeb and trump.
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thanks for the feedback, it is pretty much how I feel, especially the part about no white knight on the horizon.
We really, really are past the point of no return financially. Even the most perfect White Horse candidate could not stop this train wreck now.
If you cut the spending that is killing us ( welfare/ss/ssi) then you get rampaging EBT mobs burning and looting. If you keep kicking the can, the whole thing fials as the foreign dollars flood home. maybe there is a tight-rope middle ground there - somehow, that keeps confidence that world debts will be paid and pays off enough f the ferals that complete civil chaos doesn't erupt, but I just don't see it. The numbers are way too big. 30-80 Trillion in unfunded liabilities. 200 Trillion Credit default swaps overhang. And we start 18 Trillion in debt. Hauser's Law ( really a statistical truth) shows that the Fed just can't collect more and 18-22 % of GDP. If that remains true, we would need 6-8% GDP growth for 10-20 years. That hasn't ever happened before. As such, it would be kind of silly to rely upon it happening now.
The only question now is - are you are of the "Let it Burn " crowd. I am - I think it better it collapse sooner, as it makes it harder to get a police state fully in place ( if your money is worthless how do you pay the thugs?) or if you would rather a few more years of kick the can .. giving them even more time in which to entrench themselves and pay people who will be willing to confiscate firearms, property and worse.
Let. It. Burn. Hillary 2016!
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She seems to have more spine than most others on the stage but I am afraid they are engaging in the circular firing squad already which means the only ones left will be the 2 with the most money, Jeb and Trump.
Yes and yes. I like her spine. It makes me think she beleives in something - even if it isn't 100% ideologically pure.
I would rather see her get the nomination than either Trump or Bush. I might even vote for her, where I won't for Bush or Trump. But she has ZERO chance of winning the nomination.
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Re; her support for an individual mandate, for what it's worth, she's saying she never supported the Obamacare mandate, and was supportive of the Heritage Foundation's plan of a mandate for catastrophic coverage in order to prevent taxpayer funding of uninsured people going to the emergency room for their primary medical care.
Correction taken. She supported using government power to force people to buy a product. That is ALSO just as unconstitutional and wrong as the Obamacare mandate. It might be a little more swallow able since catastrophic at least makes some rational sense -- but no mandate is acceptable to me in this category. You want people to stop using the emergency room, then don't make it mandatory by law to treat people who can't pay in emergency rooms.
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I've been trying not to bash any of the candidates - even Jeb! ;')
Yes, there has been a circular firing squad in action - it's the pubbie way. We bash and trash until we eliminate every decent candidate and are left obliged to vote for the establishment guy.
So in that regard I guess I am of the "let it burn" persuasion. I am determined not to endorse or reward incompetence or embrace leftist standards by casting a vote for anyone except a conservative. Call it a temper tantrum, call it selfish, call it what you like - I'm done.
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thank you all for your input. I have been tending towards the national high colonic cure for some time myself. I honestly do not see a legistlative cure for where we are at this point. I just hope, at my age, that I can survive the journey and see the cleansing.
In the event that we are not yet up to that rebellion stage, I think Fiorina is the closest we are going to get to a margaret thatcher type as far as spine, I just hope she is a committed to change as her campaign wants us to think.
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So in that regard I guess I am of the "let it burn" persuasion. I am determined not to endorse or reward incompetence or embrace leftist standards by casting a vote for anyone except a conservative. Call it a temper tantrum, call it selfish, call it what you like - I'm done.
I see you and I are in the same boat.
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I don't think there is a candidate alive who doesn't think some sort of gov't mandate isn't part of "the cure". For Fiorina to call herself "conservative" but still recommend a "mandate" is commonplace. The type of candidate I want doesn't exist today.
I'm of the "let it burn" crowd....but, if the right candidate existed, who would SEVERLY cut the freebies, end the Dept of Energy, dept of education, give back states rights, etc......I could learn to live with feral beasts burning down their neighborhoods, because in each "let it burn" scenario, the feral beasts will burn things.
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Look at her record at HP and decide if you think she's executive material
She's definitely Congressional material as she lies with the best of them but I wanted something that had a moral compass for my President.
She lied as CEO of HP and the job she had before that so no not even if Hitlary was the Dem nominee.
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thank you all for your input. I have been tending towards the national high colonic cure for some time myself. I honestly do not see a legistlative cure for where we are at this point. I just hope, at my age, that I can survive the journey and see the cleansing.
In the event that we are not yet up to that rebellion stage, I think Fiorina is the closest we are going to get to a margaret thatcher type as far as spine, I just hope she is a committed to change as her campaign wants us to think.
Not to bash you but "spine" as in she has one, really? Give me a break, she's a pandering pos like Bush, Kasich, Ryan, Huck, etc....
Cruz or Revolution though The Donald makes it fun again. He's no conservative but he's no progtard either.
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So in that regard I guess I am of the "let it burn" persuasion. I am determined not to endorse or reward incompetence or embrace leftist standards by casting a vote for anyone except a conservative. Call it a temper tantrum, call it selfish, call it what you like - I'm done.
I see you and I are in the same boat.
I don't know how big that boat is....but it sure has a lot of passengers!
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Not to bash you but "spine" as in she has one, really? Give me a break, she's a pandering pos like Bush, Kasich, Ryan, Huck, etc....
Cruz or Revolution though The Donald makes it fun again. He's no conservative but he's no progtard either.
I am beginning to see Trump as the republican version of obama. He orates to a crowd, telling them what they want to hear in vague enough terms to allow them to "fill in the details" in their own minds. He offers nothing in the way of concrete plans as to how to make this happen, just sunshine and everything will be better when I am in power. Haven't we been there already. I am not opposed to his message but he is not leadership material. Cruz could never get elected but he would make and excellent AG followed by a seat as supreme court justice, he is an awful politician.
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Not to bash you but "spine" as in she has one, really? Give me a break, she's a pandering pos like Bush, Kasich, Ryan, Huck, etc....
Cruz or Revolution though The Donald makes it fun again. He's no conservative but he's no progtard either.
I am beginning to see Trump as the republican version of obama. He orates to a crowd, telling them what they want to hear in vague enough terms to allow them to "fill in the details" in their own minds. He offers nothing in the way of concrete plans as to how to make this happen, just sunshine and everything will be better when I am in power. Haven't we been there already. I am not opposed to his message but he is not leadership material. Cruz could never get elected but he would make and excellent AG followed by a seat as supreme court justice, he is an awful politician.
Honestly, I couldn't tell them either becasue then they would understand just how many would be kicked to the curb, bled dry and or deported.LOL
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Not to bash you but "spine" as in she has one, really? Give me a break, she's a pandering pos like Bush, Kasich, Ryan, Huck, etc....
Cruz or Revolution though The Donald makes it fun again. He's no conservative but he's no progtard either.
Perhaps spine isn't the right word. She appears to have a personal agenda that isn't 100% out of whack with some of the things that SHOULD happen, if one is inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt (but I understand perfectly if there are those who are not) She has no track record as a politician, and a mixed record as CEO - meaning yes she did accomplish some things, and others didn't work out quite so well. I don't get the feeling she is entirely in it for her, but that is entirely subjective on my part. She talks a good game.. but that's about it. I still like Carson, be he also has no track record -- and of course the only politician who had a track record we knew -and who showed the balls to fight for us and our principals - Walker - is already out.
But we all knew that there would be no acceptable candidate when the music stopped, nor would there be a fair election if we did have one. Let the Democrats preside over the burning nation. Seriously - when it all goes to hell and they are finally using the govt. repair kits, who do you want to see hanging there? Let the Dems own the mess they created.. let them accelerate the process, and deprive them of the time they need to really get a police state in place (cashless society, complete monitoring of every conversation and every movement of each person, high tech military automata (mosquito size drone, flies into "insurgent's" house and injects cyanide) We really aren't that far from being there already, and its entirely possible that skunkworks already have this crap developed. . We need this started sooner rather than later and I can't think of a better way than giving the Dems the rope to hang themselves. We certainly can't stop it. We can only pick the form of the destroyer. If you think a eGOP is harmless think staypuff marshmallow man. Both candidates will hurt you. Count on it. Now which one is likely to cause enough damage fast enough to get this thing moving?
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I am beginning to see Trump as the republican version of obama. He orates to a crowd, telling them what they want to hear in vague enough terms to allow them to "fill in the details" in their own minds. He offers nothing in the way of concrete plans as to how to make this happen, just sunshine and everything will be better when I am in power.
I totally agree. "Hope and Change"; "Make America Great Again". I see little difference in how these two slogans are designed to appeal to their target audience.
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I'm not supporting anyone yet but do have a list of who isn't getting my support. So I sit and wait it out ::popcorn:: But holding my nose again is out.
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Trump ain't no Reagan but he had slogans, too.
"Morning in America" was one
I'm not a Trump-ette but I'm confused about some of the reactions here to him since he seems to be advocating things we talk about here
Illegal immigration
2A protection
Getting rid of Obamacare
Etc.
He has balls and stands up to the propaganda machine
Not a Washington insider
And more
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I'm not a Trump-ette but I'm confused about some of the reactions here to him since he seems to be advocating things we talk about here
Illegal immigration
2A protection
Getting rid of Obamacare
Etc.
I think its because none of us believe he is serious about those issues. He is good enough buddies with the Clintons to invite them to his wedding and seat them in the front row. He is narcissistic enough to WANT to be on reality TV even though he has more than enough wealth to stay out of the limelight. Yes, he is SAYING the right things, but he says them because it gets him the attention he craves, and any truth to the statements is probably completely incidental. When in office he will continue the Crony Capitalist shenanigans because he is a crony capitalist. He is good at the game, enjoys the snobbery, and probably is looking forward to turning the tables on some adversaries once in power.
I do not for one second thinks he wants to end the era of big government, or the era of the rich oligarchy - he is firmly part of that club. It wouldn't surprise me if Democrats operatives didn't put him up to it -- Hey Trump, go over there and pull the wind from that populist sail so no real Conservatives can be nominated. AT this point I think a lo of his support is coming from disenfranchised Democrats - not form the GOP base, but for some reason he is leading the GOP polls. Oh right - because now he says he is a Republican - when in the past he was always a Democrat. He is no Reagan. He hasn't seen the error of his ways. He only wants power and popularity and a media to feed his narcissistic arrogance.
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I don't think he's even saying the "right things" as much as he's saying provocative things. He's all over the map and reflects a poorly thought out and anything but comprehensive philosophy. It's just that people are so tired of the same old crap and desperate to win for a change that they cling to anything that even remotely resembles a winner.
The inescapable question that I have regarding Trump is what would he do (and what would become of us) when, six months into his presidency, he gets bored with some aspect of the job or offended by someone?
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I've wondered about the depth of his convictions since many are fairly new.
However, if he can successfully bring about the collapse of the GOP, he ain't all bad
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::popcorn::
::stirpot::
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I've wondered about the depth of his convictions since many are fairly new.
However, if he can successfully bring about the collapse of the GOP, he ain't all bad
Not sure they need help making themselves irrelevant - they have been doing a bang up job by themselves for the last couple of decades, but Trump might finally put that final nail in, so yeah, good on him for that - I guess.
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For the "let it burn" column: in WWII there was a serious plan by the western Allies to assassinate Hitler. There were even agents placed near his mountain retreat. But ultimately they concluded Hitler would bring down Germany faster than anything the Allies could do to it.
So it is with the Dems in charge of this train wreck.
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So in that regard I guess I am of the "let it burn" persuasion. I am determined not to endorse or reward incompetence or embrace leftist standards by casting a vote for anyone except a conservative. Call it a temper tantrum, call it selfish, call it what you like - I'm done.
I see you and I are in the same boat.
I don't know how big that boat is....but it sure has a lot of passengers!
Permission to come aboard? I'll bring me booty and some rum. Arrrgghh! :D
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You want people to stop using the emergency room, then don't make it mandatory by law to treat people who can't pay in emergency rooms.
That one will never happen. America will never let people literally die on the streets. That being said, I have no problem with Carly's mandate of bare bones, catastrophic coverage, to cover that kind of emergency treatment.
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I'm not sure it is disenfranchised democrats who are supporting Trump. The radicals are supporting sanders and the rest Hillary because of embarrassment for their Obama vote and Hillary makes them feel all better. He may be all message but it does take on a conservative vent....dems don't support anything conservative. I guess there could be a few dems who believe Trump will fall in line, but that requires a form of intelligence, it doesn't exist.
Personally, I love Trump today....that doesn't equate to a vote but since I believe it will eventually burn, I want to have some fun while our political parties take it down.....because in the end, does it really matter who was at the helm. Feral beasts are feral beasts, whether in Congress or the streets of Compton....but in the meantime, I'm having fun with my so called conservative friends defending Trump. I like reminding them Fox is telling them what to do, and just like throwing their support to Corker and Alexander here in Tennessee, which I told them would be disaster, they will go for Jeb, because he will be the lesser of two evils.
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You want people to stop using the emergency room, then don't make it mandatory by law to treat people who can't pay in emergency rooms.
That one will never happen. America will never let people literally die on the streets. That being said, I have no problem with Carly's mandate of bare bones, catastrophic coverage, to cover that kind of emergency treatment.
Point that out for me in the Constitution.
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You want people to stop using the emergency room, then don't make it mandatory by law to treat people who can't pay in emergency rooms.
That one will never happen. America will never let people literally die on the streets. That being said, I have no problem with Carly's mandate of bare bones, catastrophic coverage, to cover that kind of emergency treatment.
"America" might very well not let that happen but the government had better - because, to Pandora's point, the Government has no right to force Doctors to treat patients, to force bakers to bake cakes or to make anyone pay for any private service they do not want to purchase. If the constitution can be bent here, it can be bent anywhere else. The rules mean something or they don't and the obviously mean nothing to Carly in this circumstance. If this is something the Govt can and should be doing get an amendment. If you can't then the govt shouldn't be doing it. I for one will oppose and such suggestion.
America can either provide to charity, or hospitals can do charity work or any of a dozen other approaches can be used to help solve the problem of how low life non-contributing scum get health care - the vast majority of which don't buy insurance because they don't have to because "Murica" won't let them be turned away from Emergency rooms.
If we simply abolished employer programs - forcing EVERYONE to search for and buy insurance on their own, you would find a much larger market, with much better offerings and you could keep you insurance plan from the age of 18 till death because it doesn't come from your employer.
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If we simply abolished employer programs - forcing EVERYONE to search for and buy insurance on their own, you would find a much larger market, with much better offerings and you could keep you insurance plan from the age of 18 till death because it doesn't come from your employer.
And it's worth noting that the whole reason employers got into health insurance in the first place is because of New Deal wage fixing. Employers couldn't lure top talent with salaries so they looked for alternate types of carrots to dangle and came upon health insurance plans.
Regarding the cost of indigent care at emergency rooms, I am sure there's a solution that does not involve government coercion. That's the proper domain of the church, and a role it has fulfilled for literally 2,000 years. Americans will not permit people to die on the sidewalk in front of hospital ERs and will find a way to help them without government meddling. That is the real insidious thing about the state inserting itself into the realm of charity, it acts as a disincentive for more genuine, more effective, and more local private charity. It becomes too easy to abstract it onto some nebulous government program. I think you can find evidence of this in churches that favor socialistic government programs, they seem too attracted to the idea that they can subcontract their duty to charity out to the state.
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You want people to stop using the emergency room, then don't make it mandatory by law to treat people who can't pay in emergency rooms.
That one will never happen. America will never let people literally die on the streets. That being said, I have no problem with Carly's mandate of bare bones, catastrophic coverage, to cover that kind of emergency treatment.
Point that out for me in the Constitution.
Right after the amendment forcing doctors to give treatment to someone in the emergency room. If you have one, you have to have the other. If you've determined that we can force a doctor to give treatment, we can force someone to pay for it.
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. . .
I can see myself casting a vote for her if she somehow gets the nomination. I'd still rather vote for Ted Cruz. He's in love with the constitution and the country, and he's as smart as they come.
I agree. Fiorina is smart as a whip, talks like a true conservative. She would actually make a good VP. I would vote for the party's nominee as long as it's not Jeb! Dr. Carson troubles me quite a bit because he's not really ready for prime time.
My honest opinion about Trump? If he gets the nomination, I think it will be a mistake. But the nominee is the nominee.
As of this moment, it's Cruz/Fiorina for me. The fallback is Trump/Fiorina with Cruz as Attorney General.
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Honestly, I don't really care who is the nominee as we'll be asked to just bend over anyway as it's been done to us since post Reagan. I would love to see some heads roll in an attempt to bring the rule of law back to the republic but I must be honest, I don't expect it to ever come back. A civil war would immediately break out as soon as that happens which of course needs to happen in order for those that have broken the law to be punished. Allowing any in this regime to skirt by unpunished will be disappointing but then par for the course in this post republic empire. The only thing missing is the title of Emperor.
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You want people to stop using the emergency room, then don't make it mandatory by law to treat people who can't pay in emergency rooms.
That one will never happen. America will never let people literally die on the streets. That being said, I have no problem with Carly's mandate of bare bones, catastrophic coverage, to cover that kind of emergency treatment.
Point that out for me in the Constitution.
Right after the amendment forcing doctors to give treatment to someone in the emergency room. If you have one, you have to have the other. If you've determined that we can force a doctor to give treatment, we can force someone to pay for it.
"If you've .... we can force ...". See, I've not determined any such thing and the "we" in question doesn't include me either.
I'm saying the sentiments outlined in your statement is exactly how WE got right where we are now. It's got to stop, because a little force here, a little unConstitutional mandate there leads to bigger things, always. No one is ever a little bit pregnant.
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I'm saying the sentiments outlined in your statement is exactly how WE got right where we are now. It's got to stop, because a little force here, a little unConstitutional mandate there leads to bigger things, always. No one is ever a little bit pregnant.
^^^that^^^^
Anyone who questions it need only look at the last 100 years. Raising corn on your own land to feed your own cows is "interstate commerce" because someone said bending the rules was expedient.
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It wasn't corn, it was wheat. Just sayin'.
I've got to attribute that particular and in context "no one is ever a little bit pregnant" to IDP, from a looong time ago, after he had time to consider our then vituperative disagreement over the idea that some (unConstitutional) things just needed to be done. When he came 'round, he used that phrase to underline his understanding. He's a smart cookie, that one.
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It wasn't corn, it was wheat. Just sayin'.
Don't you oppress me! I have a right to identify that seed stuff with whatever name I choose. ::kissface::
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http://www.newswithviews.com/Nelson/kelleigh249.htm (http://www.newswithviews.com/Nelson/kelleigh249.htm)
A few excepts here; more at the article
[/There is a reason Fiorina shows up on lists of the "Worst CEOs Of All Time," (See here, here, here, here, and here among others) and it’s not because the whole business world is engaged in some kind of conspiracy to portray her as an incompetent. Was HP better off after Carly left than when she arrived? The answer is no. [Link] Despite the spin she tries to put on it, Carly Fiorina was a disaster for Hewlett Packard, and they're still suffering from her so-called leadership. [Link] Fiorina left HP with one of the largest golden parachutes, really unheard of! [Link]
Don't forget about her trading with Iran in violation of U.S. trade sanctions by using a foreign entity. [Link] According to a column by Josh Rogin: "Under Fiorina's leadership, Hewlett-Packard sold hundreds of millions of dollars’ worth of products to Iran through a foreign subsidiary, despite strict U.S. export sanctions." quote]
Don't forget Carly's love of the Islamists, and her speeches extolling Islamic history only nine days after 9/11. On Monday, 21 September 15, Fiorina appeared on the Jimmy Fallon show. Besides her singing about a dog, she stated she would not have a problem with a Muslim being president of the United States
Here are some of the topics in the article:
Fiorina and Common Core
Fiorina-Backed Website Touted Planned Parenthood
Fiorina on Hillary
Fiorina on Illegal Aliens
Quite a conservative
Not much better than Hillary
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http://www.newswithviews.com/Nelson/kelleigh249.htm (http://www.newswithviews.com/Nelson/kelleigh249.htm)
A few excepts here; more at the article
[/There is a reason Fiorina shows up on lists of the "Worst CEOs Of All Time," (See here, here, here, here, and here among others) and it’s not because the whole business world is engaged in some kind of conspiracy to portray her as an incompetent. Was HP better off after Carly left than when she arrived? The answer is no. [Link] Despite the spin she tries to put on it, Carly Fiorina was a disaster for Hewlett Packard, and they're still suffering from her so-called leadership. [Link] Fiorina left HP with one of the largest golden parachutes, really unheard of! [Link]
Don't forget about her trading with Iran in violation of U.S. trade sanctions by using a foreign entity. [Link] According to a column by Josh Rogin: "Under Fiorina's leadership, Hewlett-Packard sold hundreds of millions of dollars’ worth of products to Iran through a foreign subsidiary, despite strict U.S. export sanctions." quote]
Don't forget Carly's love of the Islamists, and her speeches extolling Islamic history only nine days after 9/11. On Monday, 21 September 15, Fiorina appeared on the Jimmy Fallon show. Besides her singing about a dog, she stated she would not have a problem with a Muslim being president of the United States
Here are some of the topics in the article:
Fiorina and Common Core
Fiorina-Backed Website Touted Planned Parenthood
Fiorina on Hillary
Fiorina on Illegal Aliens
Quite a conservative
Not much better than Hillary
If only more people had a clue who as to this whore is. 308 million and only a few are competent for self government. I'm guessing this is why the experiment failed within a few generations.
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She is talkin' the talk but never walked the walk. I don't know who to attribute this to, but I know it has been used by my parents for decades.
Maybe she has seen the error of her ways.....but I don't think she is my Presidential material.
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I agree with you, Don.
Talk is cheap
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We've had nothing but "cheap" for quite a while now...