It's About Liberty: A Conservative Forum
Topics => Politics/Legislation/Elections => Topic started by: Delnorin on November 06, 2011, 06:16:24 PM
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** If this is in the wrong area, please relocated it. **
This didn't quite fit into the End of the World thread (or at least I didn't think so.. but if admins think so; please move it over there.
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I've been doing about 1 1/2 years of searching, networking, preparing and praying on trying to lay out a usable plan for me and my family here in the Arizona desert valley if "things hit the fan".
I've been befriending (genuine, not manipulative) experienced people of similar viewpoints. One of them is an older gentleman with a great deal of life experiences and wisdom. He's lived in the desert his entire life and can really survive. In fact, he's on a search and rescue team for the desert mountains here, he's very well in shape for an old fella and he knows everyone, knows every place, knows every mountain path, water source, etc.
He's also very good friends with a Navy Seal. My friend has been sharing me emails (information) from the Navy Seal for some time and likewise my friend has been sending some of my blog entries to the Navy Seal to read. Well....
The Navy seal has invited my friend to come over to his 'place' to show him what he's got set up for he and his other Navy Seal friends for when things... in his own words "Turn into marshal law". He has asked my friend to bring me along. My friend was a little surprised that his Navy Seal friend thought it might actually go that far and asked him quite pointedly... the Navy Seal says that he has a great many friends quite high up in the government and they all are basically preparing for it. They don't 'think' Obama would push for it.. they see him actually preparing for it and planning on it.
So.... My great concern for my family to be taken care of and the fears of what my government are turning into are both calmed and alarmed (in that order).
Wish me luck.. we go to meet him and his 'set up' on Wednesday after I get out of Trigonometry class as the college.
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Be sure to let us know how the visit goes! ::thumbsup::
...and tell him (them) thanks for their service while you're there!
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I have been thinking Wyoming, wide open spaces, and the least populated State in the Union. Plus plenty of high area if need be. Arizona is to close to Mexico. If the thing hit the fan, the Mexicans would storm the borders like Bee's to honey!
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Del, you live so far out in the boonies the only
thing you have to worry about is the Cartelistas.
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A defensible position, access to food and water and family & friends to rely on will go a long way and trumps location, unless the latter is in a urban environment, then it gets dicey...not too many families will be equipped to hold of thousands of angry, frightened and starving humans. As in any equation it all comes down to evening the odds or swinging them into your favor.
It will be interesting to hear what comes out of your meeting. I think I can guess some of it, but it will be good hearing first hand. There is one question I am interesting in hearing an answer, but it may come up in your meeting so I will patiently await your update.
Good luck and thank the young man for his service, from all of us here at IAL!
::USA::
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I have been thinking Wyoming, wide open spaces, and the least populated State in the Union. Plus plenty of high area if need be. Arizona is to close to Mexico. If the thing hit the fan, the Mexicans would storm the borders like Bee's to honey!
Oh, I hear you. It's not my perfect place to be when O'Bummer declares martial law and suspends all your freedoms and constitutional rights and they show up to disarm you with the SWAT team. I agree with the Mexico issue and with the Country being 'distracted' they'll come across the border by the 10's of thousands a week (oh.. I guess they're already doing that). Law enforcement will be so overloaded with revolt from within that the heavily armed Mexican drug/human smuggling folks will just start taking over homes/cars/trucks at gun-point (real easy after the law enforcement disarm us anyway).
We're already being invaded by California. California is in such desparate need that they're flooding over the State border into Arizona for years now. Which sort of SUCKS. You get these way left hippie communists moving in at such huge numbers that your 'once very conservative State' starts shifting more and more like California the more of them that move here (voter numbers for their side moving from 1% to much higher at elections).
Del, you live so far out in the boonies the only thing you have to worry about is the Cartelistas.
I found out the guy is more centrally located than I am. Where I'm 40-60 minutes from Downtown Phoenix, he's more like 20 minutes away.
A defensible position, access to food and water and family & friends to rely on will go a long way and trumps location, unless the latter is in a urban environment, then it gets dicey...not too many families will be equipped to hold of thousands of angry, frightened and starving humans. As in any equation it all comes down to evening the odds or swinging them into your favor.
It will be interesting to hear what comes out of your meeting. I think I can guess some of it, but it will be good hearing first hand. There is one question I am interesting in hearing an answer, but it may come up in your meeting so I will patiently await your update.
Good luck and thank the young man for his service, from all of us here at IAL!
::USA::
The real stinker is water here. If that ever gets cut off, millions will just plain die. God did not intend for humans to live here in the summer. Even the indians here planted crops in the spring and then left and headed up into the mountains for the summer. They'd come back to harvest whatever grew in the fall and then spend the winter in the valley. The ultimate summer home/cottage setup. The winters are cold and harsh in the mountains but only 70's here in the valley. In the summer it's 115 here in the valley and only 80-90 in the mountains.
I found out from my friend this morning that the guy has installed big security doors in his house, has guns all about his home loaded, etc. I also found out he's about 65 years old but he's fit like a 20 year old. He swims several miles a week, etc. Also that he was from Michigan (went to Michigan State and was on their Swim Team before he went into the Navy Seals.)(I was from Michigan: small world thing).
I'd like to know what your question is.
I'll be sure to thank him for his service.. absolutely.
But back to the question(s) I really want to go into this prepared. I not only think it may be a 'resume' sort of an 'interview' where I am going to sell myself on what I could bring to the group (electrical, plumbing, water/sewer treatment, security training, civil engineering, hunting, etc, etc).. but I also want to -interview- them too. I don't want to be signing up with some off the wall cult group. :)
What are some good things to look out for and ask about?
Some I want to learn about are:
1. What is the intent? Are you stay in place and secure yourself and your family and just want to be left alone? Or... are you organizing with other 'cells' (for lack of a better word) to actually take action against the new dictator/government?
2. At what point are you making 'the call'? That you are deciding that now is the time to not show up for work, get your gear and your family and show up at the 'bunker'. What are the parameters that make that decision? Do you wait for your freedom of speech to be declared suspended? Do you wait for curfews? Do you wait for road checkpoints? Do you wait for disarmament to have started? What are the triggers?
3. How do we communicate (procedures) for when the internet is shut down and phones (cells) are disabled for everyone except law enforcement?
4. Are we keeping in our individual homes and just communicating? Or are we getting up and getting out of the valley and heading for Montana, etc? (Him installing security doors makes me think he plans on setting up base at his house and not leaving).
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I still need to make my own plans involving all these things. I have a daughter with Type 1 diabetes and she will literally die if I decide to 'go off the grid' after she's run out of insulin. So here I am left with a decision... so I show up to work at the drinking water plant (which is a place the new dictator and his/her government will protect with law enforcement/military) and continue to do my job here? Move my family into the facility to live? Or do I just not show up to work one day?
In the same concept of work... I don't think I'd pass the background check anymore for someone they want to be running their drinking water plant. I very much speak out against what our government has become, I own/read the Bible regularly and I get about 35 more checkmarks (failing) their checklist of the 40 things or so they look at to see if you are not a terrorist. The huge things that make me think they will just replace me at work (and ship me off to a reeducation camp) is I own guns, read the Bible, speak out against the current government and keep talking about this thing called the Constitution and limited government.
So what do I do? I don't know. I've got the 'normal' wife that can't face reality and thinks -everything will be just fine, just trust Jesus-. Which she has a point. But I don't want to be that Jew on the training heading to the gas chamber that keeps telling my family, 'it can't get any worse than this'... all the way into the gas chamber.
Bah.... stress.
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I think those are all very excellent questions and as good a place to start as any. We've all encountered the reluctant family member when discussing prep's for the unthinkable. My sister-in-law just freaks out whenever we discuss things and what our next steps are. She throws up her hands and says she'll just stay in the house and pretend all is OK. I think my brother will convince her otherwise when the time comes. Discussing this stuff often brings up topics most people just don't want to deal with, but you just plow ahead as best you can. Being a frequent visitor to Arizona in the past I fully appreciate the water issue. Outside of acquiring a hideout in the mountains where there is more rain/snow you are left with few options beyond what you have stored. After deciding to hunker down or have a bugout spot, all plans have to flow toward that end. Doing what is possible and workling up to what is optimal (and usually more expensive) is about the best way to go, few people have the financial resources to front load their prepping. If you look through the TEOTWAWKI section you will see a lot of info posted. Don't let it overwhelm you. Expose yourself to the info, follow the links (like Survival Blog) and let things percolate in your mind, write down everything you think you would like or need, then prioritize by urgency/affordability and go about executing your plan. You'll discover pretty quickly priorities will shift and specific items/projects will ebb & flow. Just keep momentum going and that's about as much as anyone can be expected to do. As for work I'll only offer my opinion...if I see things looking squirrely and moving a lot faster than anticipated, I (cough) feel an illness coming on. If moving freaky fast and is indelibly the end, I'm not worrying about work, I'm hauling butt. As for my "question", regardless if this fella is still connected with other ex-military types or not, I am curious as to thoughts on how the SHTF will affect the services and what their response might be given the possible scenarios. I have my suspicions it could be fractured and chaotic, so predicting what would actually happen might be tough for anyone.
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Discussing this stuff often brings up topics most people just don't want to deal with, but you just plow ahead as best you can.
Boy! Can it ever!
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Wolverines!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Wolverines!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Which was awesome in college when I first saw that movie... growing up and at school in Michigan.
I've even got a picture of me some place holding onto two Winchester lever action .30-.30's on my hips and held outward with each hand.. leaning back like I'm looking up at a Soviet Hind helecopter.. even have the scarf around my neck.
Muhahaha!
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Good luck with your trip Del I would suggest using your eyes and ears more than your mouth. ( Seems to work better for me, But I've been known to tell people what I think before I do.)
And you can add my thanks for his/thiers service from an Old Jar-head.
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I have been thinking Wyoming, wide open spaces, and the least populated State in the Union. Plus plenty of high area if need be. Arizona is to close to Mexico. If the thing hit the fan, the Mexicans would storm the borders like Bee's to honey!
Oh, I hear you. It's not my perfect place to be when O'Bummer declares martial law and suspends all your freedoms and constitutional rights and they show up to disarm you with the SWAT team. I agree with the Mexico issue and with the Country being 'distracted' they'll come across the border by the 10's of thousands a week (oh.. I guess they're already doing that). Law enforcement will be so overloaded with revolt from within that the heavily armed Mexican drug/human smuggling folks will just start taking over homes/cars/trucks at gun-point (real easy after the law enforcement disarm us anyway).
Wyoming has much to recommend it. I hope you like wind. Lots of wind. We eliminated it for this reason ( but know prepped people there if we had to bug out and make for it) But WY has a lot of like minded people. they are independent, they own firearms, and the state has huge energy reserves.
However AZ might not be so bad. If America is under martial law there is a strong incentive to NOT come here. You will be shot instead of being sent back home, and if no one can afford the drugs, why would you bring them across? Also much of AZ environment has a disparate impact - if you know how to survive there, you can. If you don't, you die. That will cut down on the number of refugees and other rift raft that you need to deal with if things get bad. Same with the mountain valley Michelle and I are planning to use - extreme cold and altitude have advantages if you are prepared for them and others aren't.
A defensible position, access to food and water and family & friends to rely on will go a long way and trumps location
I can't agree with this more. You need like minded people- I don't care how bass ass you are, one bought of a bad flu and you will be taken out as easily as a new born babe, and maybe just be the disease. You need others. Other skills. Other view points. Other experiences. Diversity is the key to survival. A lone wolf WILL get picked off eventually. If you have the basics and enough people looters will move on to find easier targets.
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1. What is the intent? Are you stay in place and secure yourself and your family and just want to be left alone? Or... are you organizing with other 'cells' (for lack of a better word) to actually take action against the new dictator/government?[/quote]
In a total break down situation, you and your group must constantly be trying to expend. If you don't you will be conquered or wiped out by those who do. However, I don't expect total breakdown. You may end up with a"red Dawn" situation where a full on civil war does start, but again, I won't hold my breath for that situation. I am using Argentina as my model. Martial law in some places, not in other, and not all of the time. General increase in crime, and supply chain problems. Having people you can rely on is going to be more important than having identical reactions to different situations.
2. At what point are you making 'the call'? That you are deciding that now is the time to not show up for work, get your gear and your family and show up at the 'bunker'. What are the parameters that make that decision? Do you wait for your freedom of speech to be declared suspended? Do you wait for curfews? Do you wait for road checkpoints? Do you wait for disarmament to have started? What are the triggers?
If you can, move now. I "work from home" and we have been spending significant portions of the week at the retreat. If telecommuting is an option, pursue it. If not, I suspect, you will just know, just like you just know when you met the woman who will be your wife. God will guide you. Just listen. But if you want a defined trigger, I would wait till the riots are in full swing and they are talking about the need for curfews/martial law. This will happen in certain cities ( which may or may not include yours) If you hear about road blocks, find out what is needed to pass them and get out. Better yet, find a back route that is unlikely to include passing through them. Yeah 25 mph on a dirt road might not be the fastest way, but they are unlikely to waste resources patrolling them, relying instead on the sheep herd/mentality.
3. How do we communicate (procedures) for when the internet is shut down and phones (cells) are disabled for everyone except law enforcement?
Get a radio license and start learning. Software already exists that allows your router to form a mesh with other wireless routers.. I suspect you will see this software proliferate if the internet is shut down- most 4G phones are cable of becoming wireless routers as well. Within an urban area I doubt communication can be cut off. As we saw with the Arab Spring, dial ups were set up elsewhere to let people call France etc and find out what was going on. You will no be watching netflix, but world media should still be accessible. "You can't stop the signal Mal"
4. Are we keeping in our individual homes and just communicating? Or are we getting up and getting out of the valley and heading for Montana, etc? (Him installing security doors makes me think he plans on setting up base at his house and not leaving).
Never say never. Contingency plans are for certain situations. Ever see Tremors? Burt didn't prepare for evac and underground monsters. One Vehicle? Really?
With that said, bug out is always a desperate measure. Prepping requires stuff and a place to put it. Unless you own a semi, or just plan to be mobile as your plan, you will not get up and leave your prep without a dang good reason to do so.
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Discussing this stuff often brings up topics most people just don't want to deal with, but you just plow ahead as best you can.
Boy! Can it ever!
Ever the fun one, I feel compelled to mention that you should be getting comfortable with the idea of writing some people off. If you are a millionaire and can afford to lay in provisions and make room for those you "hope" will be joining you when they realize the "change" is unavoidable, more power to you. If, on the other hand, you have limited resources, realize you may need to cut them loose or be dragged to the bottom with them. Some of my friends have already started grieving for family they will not be able to save because they will refuse to acknowledge the severity of the problem till its too late ( if then!)
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Discussing this stuff often brings up topics most people just don't want to deal with, but you just plow ahead as best you can.
Boy! Can it ever!
Ever the fun one, I feel compelled to mention that you should be getting comfortable with the idea of writing some people off. If you are a millionaire and can afford to lay in provisions and make room for those you "hope" will be joining you when they realize the "change" is unavoidable, more power to you. If, on the other hand, you have limited resources, realize you may need to cut them loose or be dragged to the bottom with them. Some of my friends have already started grieving for family they will not be able to save because they will refuse to acknowledge the severity of the problem till its too late ( if then!)
"Ever the fun one"? The fun is over; the serious will survive and not at all at that. The written-off list grows ever longer -- I guess I'm not all that persuasive -- and will be revised only upon tardy but extreme action from the late waker-uppers, and they best bring their resources with 'em.
My Mother; I weep. Power out twice in three months, in an area where the power hardly ever fails, and I walked her through the questions: what happens, Ma? "We'll go to a hotel". What happens if you wait too long and there are no hotel rooms? "The gas station around the corner has a diesel generator". What happens if/when the diesel runs out? "I ..... I .... I'm too tired to think about this now". Ok, Ma.
I have no idea how to gradually approach the neighbors about this now; one is an avowed Obama supporter but lives contrary to his political leanings, the other shined me on when I broached preparing for an epidemic type situation. I made a tentative move toward one other who mocks canning -- he's got his MRATS and dried food; no gardening -- and I don't see how to get there from here. I'm not leaving because we've got our sh*t in order -- don't know WHERE ELSE TO GO; Gunsmith is still working -- and will continue in that vein. What I am hoping is if TSHTF, these people can, by necessity, be organized into a working community. Am I a fool?
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Predicting how people will react in an extremely stressful situation,
there's probably a field manual for that. If you are lucky MRATS will
be a good neighbor and the other two will either leave or succumb.
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What I am hoping is if TSHTF, these people can, by necessity, be organized into a working community. Am I a fool?
Even if you were. do you have a choice? Do they? I have a friend who thinks the hopelophobe liberals won't pick up guns. I suspect they will get over their fear of firearms right quick if their survival requires it, and the same will probably be true of your neighbors. (Back to tremors "I guess we can't make fun of Burt's lifestyle anymore" ) The real problem is that they won't have prepped and will want to rely on you and your stores.
As far as your Obama voting neighbor, most liberals don't live according to their beliefs- their beliefs are something to be foisted on someone else by force. Or are you saying he is an old-school, Kennedy sort of Democrat who just hasn't clued into what the Dems have become? If the latter, he is fine in your survival group, but he won't prep. If the former, its probably best if he meets with an accident when the time comes.
Why would anyone mock canning? What does he think his MREs and Dried food are if not high-tech canning?
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Predicting how people will react in an extremely stressful situation,
there's probably a field manual for that. If you are lucky MRATS will
be a good neighbor and the other two will either leave or succumb.
My instinctual thoughts as well.
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Am I a fool?
Hardly.
There ain't no "one size fits all" solution (even if we could accurately and definitively define the problem). We actively differentiate ourselves from 90+% of our fellows Americans because we at least take a stab at preparing for conflagration and calamity.
Everyone has basic necessities to accommodate and individual needs to fulfill.
(I just hope the liquor holds out)
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What I am hoping is if TSHTF, these people can, by necessity, be organized into a working community. Am I a fool?
Even if you were. do you have a choice? Do they? I have a friend who thinks the hopelophobe liberals won't pick up guns. I suspect they will get over their fear of firearms right quick if their survival requires it, and the same will probably be true of your neighbors. (Back to tremors "I guess we can't make fun of Burt's lifestyle anymore" ) The real problem is that they won't have prepped and will want to rely on you and your stores.
As far as your Obama voting neighbor, most liberals don't live according to their beliefs- their beliefs are something to be foisted on someone else by force. Or are you saying he is an old-school, Kennedy sort of Democrat who just hasn't clued into what the Dems have become? If the latter, he is fine in your survival group, but he won't prep. If the former, its probably best if he meets with an accident when the time comes.
Why would anyone mock canning? What does he think his MREs and Dried food are if not high-tech canning?
I/we don't have a choice, by choice. We made a decision to stay, based on certain parameters, so the dealing will need to be done. He and his will eat on their own labor, with a kick-start from us, or he'll find God despite him being a gun-owner. He's a believer in "Republicans are evil" despite my emphasis that, in us, he's dealing with Conservatives as Republicans and has life-evidence demonstrating we're not worthy of his distaste. These things tend to get sorted out in real-time, I believe, but if he persists -- and her -- in his ideology, I aim to misbehave.
Still, it's disconcerting to have to consider these things if only that we don't have allies at the ready. I am not a leader; I am not persuasive -- that's Gunsmith, and thank God he is -- I am a sledgehammer because I'm sick to death of the ignorant, the stupid, the willful and the evil.
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Am I a fool?
Hardly.
There ain't no "one size fits all" solution (even if we could accurately and definitively define the problem). We actively differentiate ourselves from 90+% of our fellows Americans because we at least take a stab at preparing for conflagration and calamity.
Everyone has basic necessities to accommodate and individual needs to fulfill.
(I just hope the liquor holds out)
And the gawdamn cigarettes.
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Weisshaupt
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I have a friend who thinks the hopelophobe liberals won't pick up guns. I suspect they will get over their fear of firearms right quick if their survival requires it, and the same will probably be true of your neighbors.
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Hope you are right. My fear is they would turn out to be more dangerous that the criminal. The criminal is predictable when these liberals are placed into an environment alien and violently unlawful their center, the place of constancy from which the deal with the world is vaporized, I think they will freak.
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Soup, I'm collecting 1/2 pints for barter.
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Soup, I'm collecting 1/2 pints for barter.
I actually don't drink much at all anymore but I do still collect ;D
The liquor prices are so gawd-awful around here that we have to save up for a roadtrip either south to Oregon or east to Idaho.
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Am I a fool?
Hardly.
There ain't no "one size fits all" solution (even if we could accurately and definitively define the problem). We actively differentiate ourselves from 90+% of our fellows Americans because we at least take a stab at preparing for conflagration and calamity.
Everyone has basic necessities to accommodate and individual needs to fulfill.
(I just hope the liquor holds out)
And the gawdamn cigarettes.
Crap. You and I are in the same boat there, Pan.
Although I do live rural, it's only about 7 mi to a small town and 20 to a small city. I do plan on protecting what I have. I'm just trying to stick up on basic necessities.
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Hmm...half pints for barter, I like that idea! (I'll keep the fifths for myself!) And I reckon vodka being clear and clean is the best option.
And I have a cooler I turned into a humidor and several smaller humidors...hope I have time to load them all up with my favorite puros before the crap hits, else I'll be trading booze for stogies!
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Oh hey, Delnorin, I forgot to ask, about insulin, is that perishable? I dated a gal about 20 years ago who was diabetic and if I recall I don't think the insulin has too long a shelf life. Any modern improvements in insulin technology? Not sure there are emergency alternatives one could do as a replacement. Medical stuff can be dicey when contemplating such things, and it is something I have to encourage some in my clan to explore more as well.
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Oh hey, Delnorin, I forgot to ask, about insulin, is that perishable? I dated a gal about 20 years ago who was diabetic and if I recall I don't think the insulin has too long a shelf life. Any modern improvements in insulin technology? Not sure there are emergency alternatives one could do as a replacement. Medical stuff can be dicey when contemplating such things, and it is something I have to encourage some in my clan to explore more as well.
Insulin must be kept refrigerated or it becomes a inert and useless. As long as you can keep it cold though it stays for a long time. We are about to try and get a 3 month prescription filled. The difficulty is attempting to get a stockpile all because it is prescription based is monitor how much you use.
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Oh hey, Delnorin, I forgot to ask, about insulin, is that perishable? I dated a gal about 20 years ago who was diabetic and if I recall I don't think the insulin has too long a shelf life. Any modern improvements in insulin technology? Not sure there are emergency alternatives one could do as a replacement. Medical stuff can be dicey when contemplating such things, and it is something I have to encourage some in my clan to explore more as well.
Insulin must be kept refrigerated or it becomes a inert and useless. As long as you can keep it cold though states for a long time. We are about to try and get a 3 month prescription filled. The difficulty is attempting to get a stockpile all because it is prescription based is monitor how much you use.
And I suppose there is no way to replicate the manufacturing process, not inexpensively anyway? Ugh! Can you get more via Mexico? I know its not a nice time to cross the border, but when visiting down there, I recall going into their pharmacies and getting any quantity of stuff...as long as you have the greenbacks.
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Oh hey, Delnorin, I forgot to ask, about insulin, is that perishable? I dated a gal about 20 years ago who was diabetic and if I recall I don't think the insulin has too long a shelf life. Any modern improvements in insulin technology? Not sure there are emergency alternatives one could do as a replacement. Medical stuff can be dicey when contemplating such things, and it is something I have to encourage some in my clan to explore more as well.
Insulin must be kept refrigerated or it becomes a inert and useless. As long as you can keep it cold though states for a long time. We are about to try and get a 3 month prescription filled. The difficulty is attempting to get a stockpile all because it is prescription based is monitor how much you use.
And I suppose there is no way to replicate the manufacturing process, not inexpensively anyway? Ugh! Can you get more via Mexico? I know its not a nice time to cross the border, but when visiting down there, I recall going into their pharmacies and getting any quantity of stuff...as long as you have the greenbacks.
If I can get 30,000,000 dollars for a laboratory and extract my own and give me a whole farm full of pigs to extract from their pancreas'.
Where does Mexico get its insulin supplies from? My guess is that they get it from the United States laboratories and right now they are just cheaper because they don't have all of the regulations in taxes put on the prices.
I am a poor man, I can hardly even pay my electrical bill let alone sport tens of thousands of dollars to buy things off the black market during a time of war.
The entire world would be a much different place for me if I were a millionaire. But the government boot is firmly placed upon my neck like most people that are working that I can't get my head above water.
Modified: Sorry if that sounds like a whiner talking. I'm just tired of turning every direction to find I have no real choices anymore. There was a time when the whole world lay before me and the only thing stopping me was limitations I put on myself. As the years progress... I've found myself more a slave than a free man with hope.
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A propane refrigerator like they have in campers.
A modest sized one would require a lot less fuel than
a generator would require for AC.
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A propane refrigerator like they have in campers.
A modest sized one would require a lot less fuel than
a generator would require for AC.
That's a great idea... which reminds me. I purchased a garage sale item last summer. It's about the size of a small cooler that you carry your lunch to work in. It's a little fridge that fits between the back seat(s) of the car and plugs into the 12 volt DC outlet. That's perfect. Okay... now I'm getting excited.
I'm going to start stock-piling what I need to make my own solar panels. I know I can make 1 solar panel that is about 2'x4' in size that will make enough power for that easily. (btw: You'd be shocked at how many watts a coffee maker takes. If you use one in these situations.. use it.. then as soon as it's done making it.. turn it off. The burner that keeps it hot is what sucks all the energy. 1 pot of coffee if left on and keeping it hot for a couple hours is close to a full size refrigerator running 1/2 the day. It was shocking when I saw the numbers).
I've been putting off the solar panels (here in Arizona it's perfect... sun sun sun) because we are renting the house we're in. Why invest a bunch of time/money to modify a house you don't own. But I can make my own panels (many websites/youtube show you it's actually very easy) to just charge up a bank of marine batteries/car batteries and then just save up the $250 for the DC/AC inverter, etc. I could have critical things off the grid for power outages, etc. #1 though is keeping that insulin cold.
Thank you SOOOO much.. got just picked up 12 ounces of hope again from the Charles Oakwood school of kick-ass thinking. :)
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Survival Blog has an article on insulin storage (http://www.survivalblog.com/2011/05/diabetic_preparedness_-_storin.html)
You are not the first to consider the problem.
Also came across this (http://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=33479)
It claims to contain links for making insulin from 1920s tech. Yeah, its risky. Your loved ones have no insulin. Which is riskier?
Eventually, the Victor and Eva decided to get insulin another—highly unconventional—way: make it themselves. The book "Beckman's Internal Medicine" described the methods that Dr. Frederick Banting and Charles Best first used to extract insulin from the pancreases of dogs, calves, and cows in 1921.
A Chinese chemist lend them a small laboratory in the basement of a municipal building, where they attempted to extract insulin from pancreata of water buffaloes. After much work, they finally produced a brown-coloured insulin. The insulin was tested on rabbits starved for twenty-four hours and then divided into two groups. One group was injected with the extracted mix, and the other with Eva’s insulin. Without equipment to test the rabbits’ urine or blood the best way Victor could test the potency of the insulin was to see if the rabbit’s experienced the same hypoglycaemic shock as the other rabbits. After testing the insulin on rabbits for more than a year, Eva was running out of conventional insulin and cautiously tried it on herself-–and it worked.
In the Jewish ghetto where they were living, many other people with type 1 diabetes were also in dire need of insulin. Eva gave her insulin to two boys in a nearby hospital who were in diabetic comas.
With a successful batch of homemade insulin, the Saxl's began production of insulin for all people with diabetes in the Shanghai Ghetto. In all, over 200 people survived between 1941 and 1945 and there were no fatalities reported as a result of tainted insulin.
However if you can learn to make it, it could be your post TEOTWAWKI career, and probably one that pays well too.
As for stockpiling, you need to find a doctor friend who is willing to give you the scripts required. This may not be your normal doctor and your insurance probably shouldn't be used to pay for it. But then you have it.
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I'm going to start stock-piling what I need to make my own solar panels. I know I can make 1 solar panel that is about 2'x4' in size that will make enough power for that easily.
The "make your own" panels usually use cells salvaged from other panels, and while yes, this works, those cells really ought to be electrically matched to get decent yield out of them.. otherwise the weakest cell limits the others. Same thing happens with strings of store bought panels - they need to be matched. Also, since this is a critical path difference between life/death project I wouldn't be placing those bets on used parts or connections humans made -- these things will be out in hard, dusty, wind, hot and cold environments, and your soldered connections and framing have to be up to that. Doesn't mean you can't make frames, seals and connections as good as any manufacturing plant, but you are literally betting a life on your work.
Chinese made panels are good and can be had for pretty cheap ( but you can't take the tax credit on them) but even an American panel will be running you $5 a watt - $500-600 a panel .
I should think for this project I would consider a manufactured panel, and a spare ( or two) so you know it can withstand the environmental issues. One 240W panel will produce about 1 Kw-Hr per day- enough to run a good sized freezer. . I would have a back up gen on hand as well, and maybe augment it with a 200 W wind generator. Battery bank should probably be sized to handle a 3-5 day outage.
Also, look at converting a chest freezer to a fridge. (http://mtbest.net/chest_fridge.html) Its probably more economical than going after a DC version if you need the storage space. Yes that does mean getting an inverter. Trust me, everything is AC and eventually you will want to plug other stuff in post Teotwaki.
I think the energy saving claimed in the link are over blown, but still substantial. Of course installing it in a basement/root cellar/crawlspace kept at 54 degrees helps a lot.
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Oh hey, Delnorin, I forgot to ask, about insulin, is that perishable? I dated a gal about 20 years ago who was diabetic and if I recall I don't think the insulin has too long a shelf life. Any modern improvements in insulin technology? Not sure there are emergency alternatives one could do as a replacement. Medical stuff can be dicey when contemplating such things, and it is something I have to encourage some in my clan to explore more as well.
Insulin must be kept refrigerated or it becomes a inert and useless. As long as you can keep it cold though states for a long time. We are about to try and get a 3 month prescription filled. The difficulty is attempting to get a stockpile all because it is prescription based is monitor how much you use.
And I suppose there is no way to replicate the manufacturing process, not inexpensively anyway? Ugh! Can you get more via Mexico? I know its not a nice time to cross the border, but when visiting down there, I recall going into their pharmacies and getting any quantity of stuff...as long as you have the greenbacks.
If I can get 30,000,000 dollars for a laboratory and extract my own and give me a whole farm full of pigs to extract from their pancreas'.
Where does Mexico get its insulin supplies from? My guess is that they get it from the United States laboratories and right now they are just cheaper because they don't have all of the regulations in taxes put on the prices.
I am a poor man, I can hardly even pay my electrical bill let alone sport tens of thousands of dollars to buy things off the black market during a time of war.
The entire world would be a much different place for me if I were a millionaire. But the government boot is firmly placed upon my neck like most people that are working that I can't get my head above water.
Modified: Sorry if that sounds like a whiner talking. I'm just tired of turning every direction to find I have no real choices anymore. There was a time when the whole world lay before me and the only thing stopping me was limitations I put on myself. As the years progress... I've found myself more a slave than a free man with hope.
Don't sweat it my friend, we've all been there! We can only do what we can. Hope there is a way you can barter for insulin if need be.
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I would like to recomend any of these books.
It is easy to make and turns bad water into good.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_2_4?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=beer+making&sprefix=Beer (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_2_4?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=beer+making&sprefix=Beer)
“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” ::beertoast::
Ben Franklin
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See Nevil Shute’s On the Beach, a novel of the post WWIII Apocalypse. There was a character who needed insulin and the loss of electric power made him seek other ways top keep his insulin cool.
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I would like to recomend any of these books.
It is easy to make and turns bad water into good.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_2_4?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=beer+making&sprefix=Beer (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_2_4?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=beer+making&sprefix=Beer)
“Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.” ::beertoast::
Ben Franklin
Mmm! Beer!
::beertoast::
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Here is a link to my little research project:
http://free-speech-while-it-lasts.blogspot.com/2011/11/we-dont-need-your-stinkn-electricity.html (http://free-speech-while-it-lasts.blogspot.com/2011/11/we-dont-need-your-stinkn-electricity.html)
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Here is a link to my little research project:
http://free-speech-while-it-lasts.blogspot.com/2011/11/we-dont-need-your-stinkn-electricity.html (http://free-speech-while-it-lasts.blogspot.com/2011/11/we-dont-need-your-stinkn-electricity.html)
Good Write up. I am still in the middle of the " 6000W of Panels, 30 Amps at 240 V AC with 830 Amp-Hr @ 48 Volt battery backup - power the whole house- grid tied" nightmare. Snow keeps filling my trenches..I am hoping and crossing my fingers for no snow tonight so I can pass the trench inspection and get on with the rest of it. Sure will feel good when its all said and done though.. Of course then I have to work on building the aquaponics and raised beds and getting control systems in place.
Going Elk hunting for the first time this week too. I am so tired of learning new things this year.
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How many hours at 120v/amps does that translate to?
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How many hours at 120v/amps does that translate to?
All my calculations were at 120 volt AC power.
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How many hours at 120v/amps does that translate to?
All my calculations were at 120 volt AC power.
How many hours at a draw at 120v and __amps have you achieved from the storage batteries?
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How many hours at 120v/amps does that translate to?
Power (Watts) = Voltage (V) * Current (I)
Electric usage is measured in Watt-hrs or Killowatt hours - a 100 Watt light bulb left on for one hour will use .1 Kw-Hr, or 100 watt-hrs.
Batteries are rated in Amp-Hrs and operate at a specific voltage - be careful to note the Amp Hour Rate on the battery (most are rated at 20 Hours - i.e. a 100 Amp-Hr battery (20 hr rating) will supply 100 amps over a period of 20 Hours. Also be away YOU CAN'T USE 80% of that rating. Discharging most batteries more than 20% results in damage to the battery.- even deep cycles will be damaged- the only difference is how much they will be damaged.
So for my system I have 20% * 830 Amps-hr * 48 V = 7.968 Kw-hrs of storage. Or enough for one day of "essentials only" power usage at my cabin. The Panels should provide 6000W * 4 hr = 24 kw-Hr a day charging at minimum, so that gives me something like 16Kw hours to use (or loose) during the day if my Grid disappears -- and that is winter wattage - in the summer I can expect a good 5-5.5 hours of production. or 30 KW-Hrs. Under normal conditions any power I don't use would be shunted to the grid giving me a Kw-Hr credit with the co-op that I can use later. You try to come out of a net of zero because they pay you wholesale for over production - using the power grid as your battery eliminates a huge cost, and that is why grid tie systems are so popular. Of course with a grid tie, when the grid looses power - YOU LOOSE POWER - the inverter MUST shut off otherwise it will try to power the entire grid by itself and people working on "dead" lines may find them energized.
Usually batteries have a rating on how many times they can be" fully cycled" - some have a full cycle rating to 20%, some to 50% and some more. . If I should loose sunlight for some reason ( a week of storms) the Batts I have are designed to be cycled to 80% charge 2000 times. . Of course, that uses up a bit of their useful life span. But it I had to do it, I would have .8 * 830*48 = 31.872 KW-Hrs of storage, or enough for around 4 days -assuming little or no charging while the sun is up.
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Interesting discussion!
Unfortunately, I live so close to "civilization" that prepping the house for living off the grid would be impossible. I use the term "civilization" pretty loosely because when you live less than 20 miles from 8 mile (Detroit city limits) & less than 10 miles from Pontiac, it is stretching reality to call high population density "civilization". I was going to ask for advice on how to handle that, but maybe it would be better to start a new thread ...
Anyways, I know a bit about energy related things and I would be happy to help where I can (I am a research engineer working in the "alternative energy" - can't say much more than that. I am not allowed too ::) ).
P.S. I get into the practical side of things too. I am currently building skid steer attachments, a geothermal energy system and building a basement under my house.
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...when you live less than 20 miles from 8 mile (Detroit city limits) & less than 10 miles from Pontiac, it is stretching reality to call high population density "civilization".
::hysterical::
I was going to ask for advice on how to handle that, but maybe it would be better to start a new thread ...
I think we have a thread going on urban/high pop-density emergency living. I'll see if I can dig it up...
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Meeting Update:
The friend at work that was my 'in' into the group...
His wife got sick before the big meeting and he had to back out. I haven't been able to meet up with the group yet.
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That's a great idea... which reminds me. I purchased a garage sale item last summer. It's about the size of a small cooler that you carry your lunch to work in. It's a little fridge that fits between the back seat(s) of the car and plugs into the 12 volt DC outlet. That's perfect. Okay... now I'm getting excited.
I found a place that is selling the mini-fridge thing that I picked up at the yard sale. Neat.
This is good.. the one I bought had no data-plate.. now I know it draws about 3.3 amps... needed to know that.
(http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-99239380869547_2187_7265714)
http://www.earthtechproducts.com/wagan-thermo-fridge-warmer-6-liter.html (http://www.earthtechproducts.com/wagan-thermo-fridge-warmer-6-liter.html)
Keep your foods at perfect serving temperatures even when outside of your home. Take this highly adaptable 6-Liter Thermo-Fridge/Warmer from Wagan on your next outdoor trip and get the luxury of having a portable mini fridge always at the ready wherever you might be.
• 6-Liter Electric Cooler Warmer Designed for Easy Use on Outdoor Adventures
• Dual Adaptability - will work with 12V Car Plug (car lighter plug) or AC Adapter
• User-Friendly Interface – simple Hot/Cold/Off switch with LED temperature display
• Fit a 6 Pack and More - has a 6 Liter Capacity equivalent to fitting up to 9 cans
• Space Saving Design - conveniently fits at front console or back seat with 2 cup holders at the front
• Comes with a 1 Year Warranty
Ever wanted a cold drink while out camping? How about a warm cup of soup while out fishing in the wee hours of the night? With the Wagan 2260 Thermo Fridge Warmer, controlling the coldness and warmth of your food and beverages is now in your hands. Simply plug it into your car lighter plug and get cold or hot food and drinks in a really short time. Lightweight, portable and very durable, get the best out of the outdoors with this 6-Liter electric cooler warmer from Wagan.
SPECIFICATIONS
Manufacturer: Wagan
Product Name: 2260 6-Liter Thermo Fridge Warmer
Product Type: Thermo Fridge/Warmer
Dimensions: 10.50" Height x 7.50" Width x 13" Depth
Weight: 6.50 lbs
Capacity: 6 liters (9 cans)
Cooling capacity: 45°F - 50°F below room temperature
Minimum temperature: 24.8°F (-4°C)
Maximum temperature : 140°F (60°C)
Input power: 3.3 Amps, DC 12V
Brushless motor: 20,000 hr
Insulation material: Polyurethane foam
Manufacturer's Warranty: 1 year
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This is good.. the one I bought had no data-plate.. now I know it draws about 3.3 amps... needed to know that.
Looks like a heater cooler that uses the peltier/seeback effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_effect#Peltier_effect)
Neat, but really inefficient from a power conversion perspective. It will use much more power than other methods. 3.3 Amps @ 12 Volts is approximately 40 Watts. That could run a laptop. If it had to run all day it would use almost 1 Kw-Hr of power - or almost enough to run a full size fridge. And the smaller volume makes it harder to keep cool ( or hot) I still think converting a chest freezer into a Fridge is the best approach... or at least the best I have found so far..
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This is good.. the one I bought had no data-plate.. now I know it draws about 3.3 amps... needed to know that.
Looks like a heater cooler that uses the peltier/seeback effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermoelectric_effect#Peltier_effect)
Neat, but really inefficient from a power conversion perspective. It will use much more power than other methods. 3.3 Amps @ 12 Volts is approximately 40 Watts. That could run a laptop. If it had to run all day it would use almost 1 Kw-Hr of power - or almost enough to run a full size fridge. And the smaller volume makes it harder to keep cool ( or hot) I still think converting a chest freezer into a Fridge is the best approach... or at least the best I have found so far..
The planned application is to keep my daughter's insulin cold while we are evacuating out of the desert of Arizona and trying to get up/out. In transit it would plug into the car... until such time we run out of fuel and I have to start scouting/bartering for fuel to continue travel, etc. Man.. 1 tank of gas isn't going to get us very far at all when the roads are all closed down and the gas stations are all out of fuel.
I've been pricing jeeps and small trailers. Whatever I buy next has to have off-road abilities. A Kia Spectra (with no trailer hitch) just isn't going to get you up into the mountains off-roading. The established roads will be deathtraps and/or collection points for the re-education camps.
Time to also add military metal jerry cans for fuel to the list.
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The planned application is to keep my daughter's insulin cold while we are evacuating out of the desert of Arizona and trying to get up/out.
Yep, this is perfect for that app. Its still a significant load. I would probably see what it did your your fuel economy ahead of time.
1 tank of gas isn't going to get us very far at all when the roads are all closed down and the gas stations are all out of fuel.
A lot of people suggest getting a fuel-safe hand pump-- that way you can still get the gas out of the tank in the ground - paying an attendant or not.
I've been pricing jeeps and small trailers.
Older jeeps are a good idea. The ones based on military designs being best since they are easy to disassemble and work on and parts are plentiful. However, I am still partial to a truck.-- I don't know how I would be getting things done at the Teotwaki place without one. Diesel or Alcohol capable vehicles are also interesting in case you ever have to make your own fuel and/or are dependant upon local sources for fuel.
I don't think we are going to get to the point where you see road blocks on interstates- or at least you will see martial law declared in local areas before they will go all out on it - and you should be long gone before they get to clamping down on interstate travel ( it will be easier for them to restrict fuel via rationing than try to patrol roads anyway) A lot of folks cache fuel on their planned route if more than one tank is required. Jerry cans may be confiscated or stolen at check points. As a a practical consideration, you can't prep a place when its over 3-4 hours away. Too much driving, too little time to work. If you need more than a tank to get where you are going, you better be meeting a group who can help prep the location..
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I'll echo the pump idea, I have one, I want another (larger/longer one)...if power goes out, pumps won't work. I think in our TEOTWAWKI thread we had info on the markings to look for on the covers so as to draw from the right tank for the fuel you want.