It's About Liberty: A Conservative Forum
Topics => Faith & Family => Topic started by: Magnum on April 01, 2012, 04:38:52 PM
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A few months ago something stirred inside of me. First I am very blessed. I am a Messianic Believer and attend a Messianic Jewish Church (it is called congregation) on Friday nights or Saturday mornings. With my wife and kids I attend a Covenant church on Sundays. What I have noticed at both places of worship is how causal and sloppy many people have been dressing for worship. Myself included.
I work outside and have a very physical job. I wear carhartts, tee shirts, blue jeans and steal toed red wing boots. Some- times I would dress for church just as I would to work. Now, I am not a legalist and I know there are no rules for dressing for church. God too will not send one to hell for wearing a tee shirt and jeans to church. I am just talking about my self here. One day it struck me that I feel I was showing a lack of respect for God by the way I dressed for worship.
I went over my wardrobe, I had a couple nice suits that I got through the years. In the last several years I probably did not put on a suit more than 9-10 times total. I have some nice dress pants, some white shirts and about 7-8 ties. I decided to go shopping for a new suit and I picked one up a few months back. For the last few months I have worn a suit every time to church. I have long hair too and I have been pulling it back. I believe the change I have made has helped me not only in my reverence for God but it has helped me just feel more apart of church and more at home in His home. I don’t have the adjectives to describe the change. It is subtle. It is not some earth shattering experience I just feel better, and feel I am honoring God more. I get many compliments too, but I am not doing this for me or at least I hope I am not. I am doing this to honor God and I feel He in turn has blessed me.
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I get what you're saying. I'm not a regular church-goer, but I am a Christian and have a mainline Protestant background. As a kid the congregants were mostly formal, but over the years I did notice more and more elements of what might be called "contemporary service". This included a more casual dress, applause, and such. In some places it has now evolved to more of a stadium experience with light shows, what Ann Barnhardt has termed "super fun rockband church". I found myself not really liking that evolution, even as a kid, though I wasn't exactly sure why. In retrospect I think it is because I saw, and see, church as an experience in which one seeks a solemn and serious quality, which shouldn't be overly influenced by the ephemera of a given time period. That's just me though.
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I get what you're saying too Magnum. In fact, I've heard Dennis Prager speak about this very thing many times, and he definitely agrees with you.
The churches we've attended over the past several years have all been non-denominational Christian churches, so you'll find everything from folks in suits and Sunday dresses to tank tops, shorts, and flip-flops. I usually end up somewhere in between, wearing a button down shirt, a pair of jeans that are in good shape, and casual dress shoes.
I really, really hate suits and ties. I mean, really, really. I need a wedding or a funeral or some kind of gala to prompt me. I even avoid dress pants when I can. But even so, I see the value of "dressing" for church, even if I don't do it to the nines - especially if one does so out of a desire to offer something of ones self to God. That gives me something to ponder about my own heart.
I had a related experience, just last week. I think I've mentioned a few times before that we've been sort of burned by humans in churches. So we've been reluctant to step out and find a new church home for a long while now. Last Sunday we went back to a church we've attended before, for the first time in many months. Two of the musicians in the worship band were wearing stocking caps. Even I - who have to be arm-twisted to put on a suit - found wearing a hat as a fashion statement inside a building - let alone a church - to be pretty darned inappropriate. So it's interesting that you bring this up now, at just the time I was stricken by questions and opinions about what is and is not appropriate to wear in church.
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Just last night I was involved in a discussion (it sorta got argumentative) on the very subject of the proper dress for Church. Lady-friend said God doesn't care what you wear to Church as long as you're there. Her husband and I felt the same as you, Magnum. Perhaps God doesn't care what one wears, but as there is a time and place for everything, sloppy or overly casual dress does not belong in a place where one goes to show respect and to pray, unless it's a matter of "it's either attend Church this way or I can't be there". Not "won't", "can't".
It does go to state of mind, not just the wearer's, but the other attendees.
I am a Roman Catholic and even though it is no longer required, I would not feel comfortable in Church without covering my head, even if it was just a "doilie"; shorts or sweats would be out of the question.
I believe this lack of proper attention to appearance can be traced, as so many things may, back to the 60s, when respect for institutions was discouraged, all authority was to be "questioned", and "do your own thing" began to mean "anything but the usual or expected thing".
I see IDP responded before me, again, and the subject was brought home to him recently as well.
I believe less and less in coincidence.
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The one thing I've always insisted on was that my children wear appropriate clothes to church. As young girls it was always dresses. As young women if they choose nice dress pants and blouse I'm ok with that. They grew up with me saying that if church is important to you how you dress should reflect that. The older ones always dressed nice even when they were off to college going to church with their friends (and their friends were dressed appropriately too).
For me it's a way to honor God. But also a way to reflect to others the importance of church and my faith. My faith is pretty important to me so I figure I can make an effort to look nice-- like I care. Like anything it's easy for some to fall into the trap of thinking the clothes are more important than the reasons to attend church. But I like to think I bring a balance to that---one of my kids has the soul of an artist and always wears crazy combinations--all kinds of colors with various pieces together (dress with pants or 3 tops with a skirt --stuff like that). Drives my mom nuts. But it's not inappropriate--just different.
***
At church a few months back we got a new person to lead the singing and after a few complaints the pastor had to ask her to wear a choir robe because of the short skirts and tight shirts. Her outfits had a coordinated look so she probably thought she looked good for church.
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Okay, this sounds like a fun topic...
I come down on the same side as IDP. I don't care for suits. I have a couple of them for use in situations that require them. My church is not one of those situations. I could wear a suit there if I liked but (in my church) I don't have to.
What is expected is that I wear something clean (and that I be clean) and not something that is worn out. I could not conceive of wearing a tee shirt or any other shirt without a collar to church. I could not conceive of wearing a less than new or recently new pair of jeans to church.
So with those sort of minimum expectations what do I usually wear? I will usually wear black pants. Sometimes those are jeans sometimes those are something else...Dickies makes a very nice pair of work pants that are (when not torn or stained) quite functional as dress pants. They are reasonably priced, very durable and live up to the name of "permanent pressed." Which is nice because as everyone knows, ironing sucks.
Which is not to say that an iron isn't used...the shirt almost always will require an iron to look presentable.
When I don't wear black pants I will wear khaki pants...which also look nice. Again, Dickies makes a very nice set of khakis that easily substitute for more expensive dress pants. I have no problem wearing blue jeans as long as they are recently new and have no signs of wear.
Shirts must have a collar. Period. I would never wear a tee shirt to church. Never, ever. A good quality knit shirt or a fabric button down shirt. In the winter a sweater will sometimes go over the shirt. I have casual leather shoes that work well with the above combos.
Now, all that said, consideration must be taken into account of where I live. I am in a small rural community in Colorado. This place has casual written all over it. I have lived in places which are far more formal and in those places it is usually a requirement to wear a coat and tie. We all live in different places with different expectations so your mileage may vary.
Personally, I am far more interested in attitude than I am in attire. When I was a young person it was allowable for kids to sit apart from their parents...usually in the rows toward the back of the sanctuary (ah, the 1960's...what a stupid era). I admit that my parents were guilty of this situation and that I did this. When I had my own kids I knew that that was unacceptable and I didn't allow it. The bottom line for me is that regardless of what I or my family wears we are at church for two things: worship and fellowship. As the head of the household it is my responsibility to see that those things are paramount. And I do.
Clothes are important for several reasons, most of which have already been mentioned by others*. But I just don't see them as being the most important thing. At least as long as certain minimum standards are observed. And they usually are. Societal pressure and all that.
*And there is absolutely nothing wrong with women wearing hats in church. That has been a permissible convention for as long as I can remember. It's not as big (fashion wise) as it once was but there is nothing wrong with it. Men should never wear a hat indoors...especially in a church. But then, outside of cowboys and certain "ethnic" types, who wears a hat anymore? That's right...no one.
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...But then, outside of cowboys and certain "ethnic" types, who wears a hat anymore? That's right...no one.
The wannabe uptown hipsters that led worship at out church last weekend wore stocking hats. Oh, and it was in the 60s* that day. The hats were a "fashion" accessory, nothing more.
ETA: *(Not the 1960s, the Fahrenheit 60s)
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My church is a non-denominational church with no dress standards also. It seems that church leadership doesn't want to offend the people or run them off, so we have no dress standards.
I've noticed that as the dress goes more casual, so does the conduct during the services. There is more wondering around, up and down, to and fro' the bathrooms, I guess, which really stinks during invitation time.
I'm an overseer, and I've brought this very topic up several times at our Overseers' meetings, and they are starting to see my point. Now, all the leadership at least dresses with dress pants and nice shirt. Everybody on the Praise team and band has to dress nice as well. Theory being, that the congregation will at least dress up to maybe one or two notches below the leaders. But we've had muscians wearing shorts and flops, so how do you dress one or two notches below that?
Oh well, seems this is a national occurance, and not just in my neighborhood. :)
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At church a few months back we got a new person to lead the singing and after a few complaints the pastor had to ask her to wear a choir robe because of the short skirts and tight shirts. Her outfits had a coordinated look so she probably thought she looked good for church.
Mooch goes to your church?
::rimshot::
Dockers/maybe good jeans, button up shirt. Standard fare for my church. A few T's, a few suits. I personally won't do shorts or t shirts.
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God likes authenticity and sincerity...dress accordingly.
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At church a few months back we got a new person to lead the singing and after a few complaints the pastor had to ask her to wear a choir robe because of the short skirts and tight shirts. Her outfits had a coordinated look so she probably thought she looked good for church.
Mooch goes to your church?
::rimshot::
Dockers/maybe good jeans, button up shirt. Standard fare for my church. A few T's, a few suits. I personally won't do shorts or t shirts.
hahaha
I'd change churches if she even visited once...
Personally, I am far more interested in attitude than I am in attire. When I was a young person it was allowable for kids to sit apart from their parents...usually in the rows toward the back of the sanctuary (ah, the 1960's...what a stupid era). I admit that my parents were guilty of this situation and that I did this. When I had my own kids I knew that that was unacceptable and I didn't allow it. The bottom line for me is that regardless of what I or my family wears we are at church for two things: worship and fellowship. As the head of the household it is my responsibility to see that those things are paramount. And I do.
I agree with that. For my kids I imparted that attitude through proper dressing for us. Because as radioman said
I've noticed that as the dress goes more casual, so does the conduct during the services. There is more wondering around, up and down, to and fro' the bathrooms, I guess, which really stinks during invitation time.
A few months back I visited my daughter and we sat somewhere in the middle at her church. ::facepalm:: I couldn't stay focused. Too much to watch! The woman in front of me talked to her husband and snapped her gum the whole time. There were women getting up and they weren't going to the bathroom so I don't know what they were up to. Last weekend when I visited I made sure we sat up in front. What a difference.
At our church for certain designated services the kids can leave and have their own thing--I guess something for their "level". Anyway, if we happened to be there then my kids never leave. They sit with us and learn how and what to do. And we always sit up front--they can see and hear better and no distractions and they don't have any toys, books or food. When they were babies I never had a problem going out with them until they quieted down or fell asleep. My husband would be there with the older ones.
God likes authenticity and sincerity...dress accordingly.
well said ::thumbsup::
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Quote from: Libertas on Today at 09:54:48 AM
God likes authenticity and sincerity...dress accordingly.
well said thumbsup
And pithy, too.
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It seems that church leadership doesn't want to offend the people or run them off, so we have no dress standards.
Individual habits notwithstanding, there is something to be said for that argument when weighing the proper policy for a church. I don't think "no standards" is right, but rather finding some kind of balance that welcomes all people who seek God, and mildly encourages the expression of respect through attire.
Jesus didn't demand or even suggest people dress up in His presence. He was a "come-as-you-are" preacher. He was likely dressed in rags compared to many of the people He was preaching to. Likewise, churches are in the "business" of reaching people "wherever they are" in their spiritual walk with God. The lost sinner who needs God the most might be a homeless, dredlocked, drug-addled prostitute in torn fishnets, mini-skirt, and tube-top. A church doesn't want to keep people from entering to hear the Gospel of Christ because their attire somehow draws a human line of aesthetics or propriety between them and the "norm" for the congregation. Nor does a church want to make that person afraid to return after an initial visit. I don't think God would approve of someone not being exposed to the Gospel because people in a church didn't like they way they were dressed. For those reasons, I think that in the end, it must really, truly be left to the individual to decide.
Also, it is an unfortunate reality that churches need members who tithe in order to exist. Setting up clothing barriers will inevitably set up financial barriers.
Those things said, earlier observations that people should think about attire and setting an example for such are good ones. I like radioman's approach of appealing to church leadership to set the example. That sets a policy that leadership can control, while leaving the ultimate decision in the hands of the individual.
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2:25
If we are the Body by Casting Crowns w/lyrics (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki-Jc_DoC1g#)
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I never go to church unless I'm wearing a suit or sport coat and decent slacks . A tie is obligatory ! I don't care what others do but I have standards which I will NOT compromise .
BTW ... Jos. A. Bank has a Buy 1 get 2 Free sale ... which is how I bought my last three suits in January .
Try it some time ... It feels good to dress well ! And don't forget the accoutrements !
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I never go to church unless I'm wearing a suit or sport coat and decent slacks . A tie is obligatory ! I don't care what others do but I have standards which I will NOT compromise .
BTW ... Jos. A. Bank has a Buy 1 get 2 Free sale ... which is how I bought my last three suits in January .
Try it some time ... It feels good to dress well ! And don't forget the accoutrements !
But then you'll stick out as a 1%er to those OWSers!
::ohno::
PS- Pack heat!
;)
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I never go to church unless I'm wearing a suit or sport coat and decent slacks . A tie is obligatory ! I don't care what others do but I have standards which I will NOT compromise .
BTW ... Jos. A. Bank has a Buy 1 get 2 Free sale ... which is how I bought my last three suits in January .
Try it some time ... It feels good to dress well ! And don't forget the accoutrements !
But then you'll stick out as a 1%er to those OWSers!
::ohno::
PS- Pack heat!
;)
T.S.
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Ahhh...A subject near and dear to my heart. How to dress for church.....
I'm a proponent of wearing your best clothing to church. If the best you own is torn, worn, threadbare or old, i'm ok with it, i make no judgement and so is everyone else who has thier heart in the right place. If you wear those type clothes because you don't want to "offend" anyone, then your " non offensive statement" is false, misleading and frankly, it is the problem we have in society today. Dumb down. Don't have high expectations. Don't expect much from yourself. You certainly don't expect much from others.
This is where I wish I could express myself better in print. I had this conversation this weekend as they told me I wore nice suits because I thought I was better than everyone else. I wear nice clothing because I believe my inward AND outward appearence are important, especially in church. The first thing a visitor witnesses, before my heart, is what I'm wearing...It is their first impression. Sorry, but your birensock, laptop and donut do not inspire people. If I visit a family, I dress nice. More importantly, if I find a family who can't,( in need) I make sure they can. I found this much better in winning hearts than a lazer light show, loudspeakers, and songs that drone "do you love Jesus" over and over and over again as you force a handclap.
If you go on a job interview, do you wear shorts and a tee? Is your hair unruly? Are you eating a donut? Ok, you may carry your laptop with you, but you aint opening it up and looking at baby pics. I believe I can make the same effort for church.
I've found churches follow doctrine like they dress. I'm not advocating a dress code...Your going to church for goodness sakes, do you really need to be told what to wear? Attempting to win people by looking like elvis costello...I just don't think it works. But it is just my opinion and please don't take my post a comdemnation of what anyone else may wear.
Ok, I'm im done.... ::rolllaughing::
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Nicely said Don! ::thumbsup::
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Nicely said Don! ::thumbsup::
Oh, hell ya!
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This is a controversial topic, especially so for kids my age and younger. I believe that dressing well for church is absolutely necessary. I am not saying a suit and tie necessarily but it must hold to military standards at least. I truly only came into this belief recently (with in the last 2 years) because i seem to have gotten over the whole rebel-against-conformity teenager fad. One standard that i have always held to, one that my parents always enforced, was the "no hat" rule. Every time I see one of my counterparts wearing a hat in a church, my stomach takes a swan dive. In the military, if you walk into the office of someone higher ranking wearing a hat, it is a sign of much disrespect. In fact, it is a "smoking" worthy offense. I can never imagine showing my God, Savior and Creator any less respect than i would my NCO. now days, i always wear my best uniform or civilian clothing i have that is not dress quality. Back to my opening statement, the reason why youth are beginning to slip into these disrespectful ways is because of a lack of guidance from a parental figure and attention to detail. what i mean by attention to detail is that i highly doubt that if they knew the amount of disrespect wearing a hat in the church showed, i think they would remove the hat. Parents are also to blame in that they dont reinforce the practice even though they may be leading by example; example isnt always enough to direct the sheep. This is, of course, just my opinion. My parents were always good about giving me direction as how to dress for church (even though i didnt always listen).
As a continuation on the civilian clothing to be worn to church, I currently am based out of Wahiawa, Oahu, Hawaii. Going to church in Hawaii is a much different experience than back home with my parents. The "islander's" concept of nice, especially in the summer, is a tucked-in, collared t-shirt (flower pattern of course) and khaki shorts. Everywhere you go, there are different standards as to what "nice" looks like. In a place like hawaii, it involves wearing clean clothing that is breathable and neat, but not something formal. even there they view wearing a hat during church disrespectful and are not afraid to let you know. So i guess it all depends on your standards and where you worship, even though the very nature of the act requires a certain level of "dressing up".
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In the military, if you walk into the office of someone higher ranking wearing a hat, it is a sign of much disrespect. In fact, it is a "smoking" worthy offense. I can never imagine showing my God, Savior and Creator any less respect than i would my NCO. now days, i always wear my best uniform or civilian clothing i have that is not dress quality.
As SOT has pointed out - this goes beyond Church. When you are wearing a suit its a constant ( and usually uncomfortable) reminder of where you are, what you are doing, and what is expected of you. It was incentive to "play the part." Dropping standards of dress are usually an indicator of dropping standards of behavior. Proper attire is a language all of it own. It can display discipline or insult, an attention to detail or sloppiness, wealth or poverty, thrift or spendthrift, indicate a honest citizen or a gang member. Those who do not have the ability or desire to speak this language, want more people to dress as they do- to hide their undesirable characteristics.
I have never served, so I cannot say with any certainty that wearing a soldier's uniform also has this effect, but I know it has an effect on how I perceive the person wearing it. But I suspect it also works in reverse - reminding the individual of the standards the uniform represents, of the people who died to give honor to its symbolism , and kindling a desire to also be seen worthy of wearing it.
The veneer of civilization is very thin. I think a company with a more "stuffy" dress code automatically also have a staff that simply behaves more professionally, and a society with one will automatically have better behaved citizens. And for the record, I hate suits too, but it may not be that big of a price to pay in the long run. A uniform demands that you fill it.
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The veneer of civilization is very thin. I think a company with a more "stuffy" dress code automatically also have a staff that simply behaves more professionally, and a society with one will automatically have better behaved citizens. And for the record, I hate suits too, but it may not be that big of a price to pay in the long run. A uniform demands that you fill it.
I totally agree with Weisshaupt on this point.
Before my own business venture, I operated a branch for a corp. Once policy changed, toward the "casual golf shirt/ company logo" other than business attire, sales began to drop companywide. I'm sure there were other circumstances, but it coincided with the change in dress code. I bought into the change, wore the golf shirt, made my calls and found my sales dwindle. I became aware of the mistake at a company meeting...full of golf shirts and a noticeable change in attitude.
Returned home, still wore the golf shirt, if I took a customer to play golf, but went back to the suit. My sales, along with confidence and my attention to detail, increased.
Heck, in church, when i'm in a suit, I find myself paying more attention. A uniform DOES demand you fill it.