It's About Liberty: A Conservative Forum
Topics => Politics/Legislation/Elections => Topic started by: John Florida on May 20, 2012, 02:47:58 PM
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Test of Fire: Election 2012 (Official HD Version - Catholic) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9vQt6IXXaM#ws)
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Very powerful.
You know, I am very glad the Catholic Church is standing up for religious freedom. But I'm compelled to say that whatever moral authority it has for doing so is seriously undermined if not mortally wounded by its decades-long or perhaps even centuries-long abdication of that responsibility, and tolerance of hypocrisy in the Church, both clerical and lay.
When you are a church that recognizes the sanctity of life, the sacrament of marriage, and the moral directive of charity, yet you tolerate or even celebrate within your ranks those who seek to systematically kill infants, pervert marriage, and redistribute wealth without a moral component, then you've lost authority to bitch when those same people begin to seek your destruction.
Let's hope it's not too little too late. Only God knows. I don't claim His judgment, but if I had to draw a conclusion, I would surmise that He is not happy with "churches" in general right now.
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I hope they are buying lots of ad time!
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I am glad to see this. But are any of these Catholics going to question their support for the Democrat Party in general? For generations they have supported Democrats. For a long time they have allowed their mission of charity to be perverted by ideological Marxists into the idea that charity equates to empowering the state to take from some in order to give to others.
Look, I hope this has been their wake up call. I am glad to see it. I just hope they are willing to see the larger picture, to recognize that this has all been generations in the making and they have in so many ways empowered the very forces that now threaten them.
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Test of Fire: Election 2012 (Official HD Version - Catholic) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9vQt6IXXaM#ws)
This is great.
No person is perfect, no organization is perfect but when that person or
organization moves to better itself and others it should not be impugned
for its imperfections but bolstered in its efforts for betterment.
Today Catholic Church and some well known Catholics are the bravest and
most outspoken toward the enemies of America; I will stand with them.
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I'll stand with 'em insofar as they understand their mistakes of the past and move to correct them. But an honest look at the situation demands recognition that the church is culpable for the situation in which it now finds itself. It's a little bit like having an affair for 30 years and then trying to make amends after you get caught. You might receive that grace, but it's going to come with a healthy dose of skepticism and mistrust. Are you making amends because your busted, or because you've had an attack of conscience? Logic points to the former.
If it takes the impending reality of losing the very concept of religious freedom to awaken the church to its abject failure to protect it, then I guess it's better late than never. But I can't stand in complete solidarity until the church corrects course for reasons aside from simply "getting busted" for its infidelities.
If they want to protect religious freedom, they need to excommunicate people like Pelosi, Kerry, Kennedys, etc. They need to defrock clergy that teaches anything other than sanctity of life and family. They need to get out of bed with governments. Until they do those things, all I'm saying is that they do not stand on morally authoritative solid ground to protect the freedom they say they want to protect.
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We (all of us) didn't fall from Grace over night
and we're not going to recover over night. If we expect some
immediate relieve from this hellishness there will be great
disappointment.
The Church has done some stupid things each of our forefathers
has done some stupid things. The Catholic church didn't cause
all this stuff to happen by itself and whatever failing they have
is found in protestant churches also, personally, I think moreso.
Protestant churches are given a pass because "they"are "them".
They have wife swapping ministers, they have faggot pastors,
they are also pederasts, they comfort the communists, and
promote New World interpretation of the Word.
They are not a target.
The Catholics hold themselves to a higher standard which goes against
the New Religion and the New Protestant Church of Man. They are a
target, we are a target. Are we to hold them in contempt until they meet
our expectations of propriety? If they are willing to forgive me my mistakes
I am willing to forgive them theirs, then we may go forward together.
If I go to a Crusade I want to go with a Catholic. (http://freesmileyface.net/smiley/battle/crusader.gif)
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I basically agree with what you're saying Charles. I'm just noting that the church's reactionary outrage has a muted impact because of its heretofore willingness to embrace that which now attacks it. Their effort to back-pedal now and try to secure religious freedom cannot help but appear to be motivated by pure self-preservation rather than a sudden attack of conscience. That doesn't mean they shouldn't do it, and it doesn't mean I don't support them.
...Like someone who smokes cigarettes for 50 years and then gets lung cancer. You feel terrible for them, you want them to get better, you help them how you can. But you don't do so without a simultaneous acknowledgment at least within your own thoughts that the person brought it upon themselves through poor choices.
Because of the church's role in supporting that which now threatens it, instead of supporting the Catholic Church because it has been a stalwart ally in the fight for liberty, justice, and morality, I can only say, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."
I will be their ally, but not without clarity.
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Because of the church's role in supporting that which now threatens it, instead of supporting the Catholic Church because it has been a stalwart ally in the fight for liberty, justice, and morality, I can only say, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."
I think I missed something. Those who produced this video or/and Bill Donohue and the Catholic League, who is/are back peddling?
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Because of the church's role in supporting that which now threatens it, instead of supporting the Catholic Church because it has been a stalwart ally in the fight for liberty, justice, and morality, I can only say, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."
I think I missed something. Those who produced this video or/and Bill Donohue and the Catholic League, who is/are back peddling?
No, I'm speaking of the moral authority of the church. The ad is great, as I said. I'm on board with the message, as I've said. I'm just not going to pretend like the Catholic Church did not bring this down upon itself, because it did. If they want to fight for religious freedom now I'm all for it. All I'm saying is that they have less moral authority to do so than they otherwise would if they had not institutionally embraced the enemy that now attacks them.
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Also, I do not agree that the Catholic Church is being singled out. This is an assault against the whole of Christendom. The Catholics are currently front and center with this because the whole Sandra Fluke nonsense emanated from Georgetown University, a Jesuit institution. But the exact same demands, via Obamacare and Komissar Sebelius, are being made on every hospital, school, and university associated with a Protestant denomination, and those demands are no more tolerable to them.
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I am not aware of any Protestant institution speaking out.
I am aware of many Protestant institutions who are hand
in glove with the transformation of Christendom.
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IDP, I read your posts to this point several times and something about them bothered me. I reread the posts again and this comment is the one that bothered me the most:
But I'm compelled to say that whatever moral authority it has for doing so is seriously undermined if not mortally wounded by its decades-long or perhaps even centuries-long abdication of that responsibility, and tolerance of hypocrisy in the Church, both clerical and lay.
If I replaced the Catholic Church as the subject with the United States I think it is treading close to the argument the leftists make about the US of A.
"...that whatever moral authority it the United States has (through its founding documents) for doing so is seriously undermined if not mortally wounded by its decades-long or perhaps even centuries-long abdication of that responsibility (through tolerance of slavery, racism, abortion), and tolerance of hypocrisy in the country, both clerical and lay in its three branches of government and in its voters.
And a few other asides I want to comment on:
If it takes the impending reality of losing the very concept of religious freedom to awaken the church to its abject failure to protect it, then I guess it's better late than never.
That sounds like human nature. I don't know of any organization run by human beings that hasn't fallen into this or come periously close. Goodness knows the Jews were given to becoming victims of their own failings numerous times but were given mutiple chances as were Jesus' own followers to correct their mistakes and maybe become stronger. I've never heard anyone suggest that the teachings of the Old Testament Jews should be dismissed because they failed many times. I'd have a hard time dismissing the words of the prophets or Jesus' disciples simply because some in the group/organization messed up or fell into sin. I feel the same way about the founding documents of the United States. Either you believe in those words or you don't. If you do then you work to uphold them. And it's been tough for the conservatives as the progressives have held sway for about 100 years. I'm not going to write off this country because all those others didn't do anything or were ineffective. Because I know many good people who've been fighting the good fight for decades for this country and I believe that the same probably can be said for those Catholics who remained faithful and endured the pain of seeing their faith ridiculed all the while doing the best they could.
and
Like someone who smokes cigarettes for 50 years and then gets lung cancer. You feel terrible for them, you want them to get better, you help them how you can. But you don't do so without a simultaneous acknowledgment at least within your own thoughts that the person brought it upon themselves through poor choices.
If we condemn the church using that at what point does that argument end? Who do we condemn next? Because until the 20th century a number of churches formally forbid birth control, divorce , sex before marriage, etc. And the consequences of lifting the taboo has been a sexual revolution that's never abated, serial sexual partners with a rise in STDs, children without two parents raising them, countless broken homes and hearts. Because much of the pain we all have experienced in our own families could be attributed to behavior they could have avoided. Who's throwing the first stone? My brother was catting around and eventually got one of his girlfriends pregnant twice. He was nasty to me. He's never specifically apologized to me but he's straightened out his life and I'd trust him to have my back. Then there's the whole health issue as you allude to with the smoking--could the same be said for any number of diseases? I have many family and friends who suffer diseases and disabilities their doctors have told them were because of lifestyle choices. I know so many people who've had knee replacements because they're fat. In Great Britian you get to suffer for your sin of being fat by not getting a replacement until you lose the weight.
Whoa, I wrote more than I intended, IDP. Hmmm, I hope it's understood that I'm trying to think through your comments. Maybe you can clarify where I went in the wrong direction with you comments. My understanding of the church is that it has certain principles it doesn't give on much like the US is not supposed to give on certain principles (as codified in its founding documents). Conservatives tend to require perfection in suitable earthly partners and as Christians we know that isn't going to happen.
I don't think we toss out the USA because some prostituted its institutions any more than I'd toss aside the church's assistance and courage on these issues because some within were bad.
::curtsy4::
IMHO. YMMV, yadda,yadda.
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I am not aware of any Protestant institution speaking out.
I am aware of many Protestant institutions who are hand
in glove with the transformation of Christendom.
Well of course they are speaking out. I heard plenty of it leading up to North Carolina's vote on Amendment 1. http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/interfaith-leaders-stand-with-catholics-against-administration/ (http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/interfaith-leaders-stand-with-catholics-against-administration/)
The sad reality is that many institutions are actively abetting the transformation of Christianity, and in this regard both Catholics and Protestants bear much guilt.
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That's the Anglican's, didn't they just separate from the Episcopal church, joining in which is good but it's not the major Protestant divisions. The words Methodist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Episcopal do not appear in this article. The word are not there because they have been turned. They are hand in New World glove.
The Jewish and Evangelical leaders joined Washington's archbishop in opposing the administration's attempt to require religious ministries – including schools, hospitals, charities, and media outlets – to subsidize contraception, sterilization, and abortion-causing drugs in their health plans.
Yes, there are Protestants working with the Catholics and they, the Evangelicals, are under the gun too. The opposition choose other tactics to defame Evangelicals such
as "hayseed" or "ignorant". They attack anyone who makes public effort to proclaim traditional religion.
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I am not aware of any Protestant institution speaking out.
I am aware of many Protestant institutions who are hand
in glove with the transformation of Christendom.
Well of course they are speaking out. I heard plenty of it leading up to North Carolina's vote on Amendment 1. http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/interfaith-leaders-stand-with-catholics-against-administration/ (http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/interfaith-leaders-stand-with-catholics-against-administration/)
The sad reality is that many institutions are actively abetting the transformation of Christianity, and in this regard both Catholics and Protestants bear much guilt.
Right, wrong or indifferent...the Catholic Church being the largest Christian denomination on the planet should logically bear the proportional weight in fighting those that are out to harm her IMO. But you are right, there are denominations working for and against Christianity, and often times it appears the latter are winning. So seeing any pushback from any quarter is welcome and very much needed.
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It is through law and regulation affecting employment that government seeks to justify its destruction of religious freedom. I think the Catholics are at the forefront because they are the largest church, and thus are the largest religious employer. The Catholic educational, medical, and charitable enterprises make them far and away the primary institution that will be destroyed by an attack against religious freedom.
So it is natural that the struggle would take on a Catholic v Government dynamic. It's not that other churches are not speaking out, although several of the specific denominations Charles mentions are unlikely to do so, since they are churches based upon accommodating Leftist ideology, not the Gospel.
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Here we go! ::thumbsup:: ::beertoast:: ::whoohoo:: ::danceban:: ::newyear:: ::bustamove::
http://itsaboutliberty.com/index.php/topic,5918.new.html (http://itsaboutliberty.com/index.php/topic,5918.new.html)
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Y'all bring an interesting perspective to the argument about the responsibility
of the Catholic Church. Throughout American history the Catholic Church and
Catholics were relegated to second tier or suspect status. Even as late as the
mid-twentieth century Jack Kennedy had an uphill battle to satisfy the Protestant
voters that he would not subjugate himself or this nation to the Pope or Catholic
doctrine. And now, it's all the Catholics fault, that's amusing.
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Y'all bring an interesting perspective to the argument about the responsibility
of the Catholic Church. Throughout American history the Catholic Church and
Catholics were relegated to second tier or suspect status. Even as late as the
mid-twentieth century Jack Kennedy had an uphill battle to satisfy the Protestant
voters that he would not subjugate himself or this nation to the Pope or Catholic
doctrine. And now, it's all the Catholics fault, that's amusing.
Are you saying that the Church bent its principles in order to assuage the doubts of Protestant voters?
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Y'all bring an interesting perspective to the argument about the responsibility
of the Catholic Church. Throughout American history the Catholic Church and
Catholics were relegated to second tier or suspect status. Even as late as the
mid-twentieth century Jack Kennedy had an uphill battle to satisfy the Protestant
voters that he would not subjugate himself or this nation to the Pope or Catholic
doctrine. And now, it's all the Catholics fault, that's amusing.
Please don't misconstrue what I'm saying Charles. I do not suggest that it's "all the Catholics fault". Nor do I suggest that other non-Catholic Christian sects are blameless for allowing Christianity to erode to the point where government feels safe attacking it.
My onlyonlyonly point is that a church that professes the sanctity of life, marriage, and moral charity - but celebrates its clergy and membership who profess abortion, homosexual equivalence, and government redistribution of wealth - are not on as solid ground to fight this attack as they otherwise would be if they had simply practiced what they preached all along. Since they didn't practice what they preached, they are now fighting this from a position of reactionary self-preservation as opposed to moral consistency. Liberalism and Catholicism allied never made logical sense, but here we are: the Catholic Church being attacked by the liberal beast it nurtured for all those years. That's all I'm saying. Nothing more or less.
Of course I am happy the church is fighting back. Of course I support them in doing so. Let's face it: the Catholic Church is the very best hope there is on our side, of possessing the organization and will to fight back. So I'm on board.
But that doesn't mean I won't have a discussion about how things got to this point.
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Who is blaming the Catholic Church? We are merely pointing out that the Catholic Church has made unsavory alliances with the political Left in the past, and that they are now hopefully being shocked out of whatever rationalizations had heretofore permitted such alliances. I don't think anyone making this point is suggesting that the various forms of Protestantism somehow contrast with this in their purity. It is the Episcopalians who conduct gay weddings, for instance.
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Who is blaming the Catholic Church? We are merely pointing out that the Catholic Church has made unsavory alliances with the political Left in the past, and that they are now hopefully being shocked out of whatever rationalizations had heretofore permitted such alliances. I don't think anyone making this point is suggesting that the various forms of Protestantism somehow contrast with this in their purity. It is the Episcopalians who conduct gay weddings, for instance.
Exactly.
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Yup. Not bashing Catholics, all denominations deserve both criticism and credit where due!
I can tell ya about the Episcopals! When my folks got married my father was Catholic and my mother was Presbyterian, they married in the Catholic Church but joined the Episcopal to raise us kids. I guess they thought the Episcopals had a similar outlook as the Catholics but being a protestant outfit they dispensed with ritual and Latin. Anyway all went good till the mid-70's and that church began to change for the worse. You could see incremental progressive though creeping into everything...started small with paying respect to this or that, then questioning the true gender of God and all that drivel...we broke away in the late 80's and never looked back. Joined ELCA then they started caving into gays and crap (remember the famous freak tornado out of nowhere in Mpls that blew off the steeple of the church the elders met at to allow blasphemers? Yeah, God has a real sense of humor!) so our formerly ELCA church joined ARC (Alliance of Renewal Churches). The Church should NOT change to attract new parishioners, people should go to the church that matches their beliefs. As usual leftists turn everything upside down and end up ruining it for everyone.
Anyway, I hope more join this fight against Obamunism...you can never have enough allies in this war. ;)
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Whether Catholic, Protestant or anything in between....when you lay with dogs you're gonna get some fleas.
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It's on!!
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/21/catholic-groups-sue-over-federal-contraception-mandate/?hpt=hp_bn5 (http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/21/catholic-groups-sue-over-federal-contraception-mandate/?hpt=hp_bn5)
Catholic groups sue over federal contraception mandate
By Alan Duke, CNN
(CNN) - The University of Notre Dame and "a diverse group of plaintiffs" filed lawsuits Monday challenging the federal mandate that religious employers offer health insurance that includes coverage of contraceptives and birth control services, Notre Dame spokeswoman Shannon Chapla said.
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Though I find it amusing that places like Notre Dame are suing, the Constitution doesn't guarantee religious freedom only to those who've never violated their own beliefs. So whether they have any moral credibility or not is irrelevant. That may be important in the court of public opinion but not in the court of law.
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Who is blaming the Catholic Church? We are merely pointing out that the Catholic Church has made unsavory alliances with the political Left in the past, and that they are now hopefully being shocked out of whatever rationalizations had heretofore permitted such alliances. I don't think anyone making this point is suggesting that the various forms of Protestantism somehow contrast with this in their purity. It is the Episcopalians who conduct gay weddings, for instance.
Exactly.
Well, from this side of the isle it looks pretty selective.
All of the Churches have made unsavory alliances with the political Left in the past
some much worse than the Catholic's. Having witnessed my Methodist church go
from one that professes the sanctity of life, marriage, and moral charity to one that celebrates its clergy and membership who profess abortion, homosexual equivalence, and government redistribution of wealth, and succors Castro and his ilk my heart is warmed by the Catholics. I was heartened when the few spoke out and am, frankly, enamored by the continued gathering of the faithful to their cause. They are leading the way, if not for them we would hear no more than the cackling of hens.
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Who is blaming the Catholic Church? We are merely pointing out that the Catholic Church has made unsavory alliances with the political Left in the past, and that they are now hopefully being shocked out of whatever rationalizations had heretofore permitted such alliances. I don't think anyone making this point is suggesting that the various forms of Protestantism somehow contrast with this in their purity. It is the Episcopalians who conduct gay weddings, for instance.
Exactly.
Well, from this side of the isle it looks pretty selective.
All of the Churches have made unsavory alliances with the political Left in the past
some much worse than the Catholic's. Having witnessed my Methodist church go
from one that professes the sanctity of life, marriage, and moral charity to one that celebrates its clergy and membership who profess abortion, homosexual equivalence, and government redistribution of wealth, and succors Castro and his ilk my heart is warmed by the Catholics. I was heartened when the few spoke out and am, frankly, enamored by the continued gathering of the faithful to their cause. They are leading the way, if not for them we would hear no more than the cackling of hens.
I don't dispute any of that.
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Who is blaming the Catholic Church? We are merely pointing out that the Catholic Church has made unsavory alliances with the political Left in the past, and that they are now hopefully being shocked out of whatever rationalizations had heretofore permitted such alliances. I don't think anyone making this point is suggesting that the various forms of Protestantism somehow contrast with this in their purity. It is the Episcopalians who conduct gay weddings, for instance.
Exactly.
Well, from this side of the isle it looks pretty selective.
All of the Churches have made unsavory alliances with the political Left in the past
some much worse than the Catholic's. Having witnessed my Methodist church go
from one that professes the sanctity of life, marriage, and moral charity to one that celebrates its clergy and membership who profess abortion, homosexual equivalence, and government redistribution of wealth, and succors Castro and his ilk my heart is warmed by the Catholics. I was heartened when the few spoke out and am, frankly, enamored by the continued gathering of the faithful to their cause. They are leading the way, if not for them we would hear no more than the cackling of hens.
Hopefully, church leaders learn a lesson on who you sleep with from now forward. The catholic church was thrown in the center and it is natural their leadership will be scrutinized, it does not excuse the actions of other religions and thier leaders.
Many of our religious leaders looked at Obama and wanted to find points of agreement (cough, cough, slick Rick warren) only to be infested by fleas. Many have adopted the perversions of the left, welcoming sin for sins sake, more fleas.
So while the catholic church has been a focus point, it does not excuse other religious factions who embraced the lefts premises to make them palatable. It is not palatable, it's deplorable. It is sin.
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...Many of our religious leaders looked at Obama and wanted to find points of agreement (cough, cough, slick Rick warren) only to be infested by fleas. Many have adopted the perversions of the left, welcoming sin for sins sake, more fleas...
Hell, look right to Notre Dame. They invited that Marxist pro-abort into their Catholic university, showered him with praise, credibility, and legitimacy, and they did so in the face of people protesting the obvious assault that doing so committed upon the doctrine of the Church.
They didn't just seek to find a point of agreement. They chose to aid him in his anti-Catholic mission. Now they are feeling the consequences of their foolishness. I can only pray, as I have, that it is not too little too late, and that their epiphany is motivated by a genuine understanding of how they got themselves into this mess, and not a cynical effort at self-preservation.
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I thought of an apt analogy to try to explain what I've been trying to say here that takes the religious component out of the discussion.
How would we feel and what would we say if suddenly John McCain, Lisa Murkowski, Lindsey Graham, Dick Lugar, Olympia Snowe, and Mitch McConnell became alarmed at the Leftward drift away from the constitution, and banded together in solidarity vowing to fight for constitutional principles?
First we'd probably say, "Hallelujah!" But whatever our response, it would be tempered with skepticism at the prospect of a genuine conversion, and the transgressions of those senators that created the problem in the first place would be on the table for discussion. Then we'd be right alongside them all, holding their feet to the fire.
Isn't that all I'm really doing here? I'm just saying, "OK, great, Church. Glad you finally see what's going on. But because of your hand in creating the mess in which you now find yourselves and in which you've helped place the entire country, forgive me if I think your feet need to be held closely to the fire."
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That's a really good analogy, IDP.
As a lapsed Roman Catholic, I took no offense to your words as much of what you wrote about the Church's complicity in the making of its current dilemma is correct. Probably why I'm lapsed. The men running the Church have caused me much anger over the years, and bewilderment. There are men, and women, with a particular politics and their own agendas.
Part of the problem is the difficulty in running a religious institution from across an ocean. Many of the Bishops and Cardinals here "interpret" doctrine as they see fit, according to their "consciences"; I've been unsure many times the source of what was issued, supposedly, from the Vatican or the Pope, and what it meant.
I think the "sexual revolution" caused much angst in the Church over how best to deal with it, and with women's hatred of the prohibition of conception control. I believe the Left had been slowly infiltrating the Church, but the 60s and 70s saw them gain an incredible foothold that continues to this day. Some of the seminaries were so overrun with homosexuals, one in particular, St. Mary's seminary, was dubbed "The Pink Palace", that a lot of good men chose to forego their calling in that manner. I think the Church yielded on some things in order that it could stand fast on others, but it should have stood fast on all of it and the people would have stood with it, conception control notwithstanding.
A Catholic, a good friend, recently pointed out that it is the younger priests now, not the ones ordained then, that are committed to Church doctrine. The old radicals are dying out and not a minute too soon.
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...A Catholic, a good friend, recently pointed out that it is the younger priests now, not the ones ordained then, that are committed to Church doctrine. The old radicals are dying out and not a minute too soon.
Anecdotally, I know this to be true at the largest Catholic church in my town - at least from all outward appearances and testimonies (you never know the hearts of men). The young priest is dedicated to Jesus Christ and his ordained mission according to Catholic doctrine. I've met him several times, and seen him working in the church and in the community, and he gives me hope that what your friend says is true.
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All of Christianity seems to have been infected with this idea that it must modify itself in order to attract people, and this has been put into practice in any number of destructive ways. In reality it is supposed to be the Rock that stands athwart the ephemeral wanderings of man.
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All of Christianity seems to have been infected with this idea that it must modify itself in order to attract people, and this has been put into practice in any number of destructive ways. In reality it is supposed to be the Rock that stands athwart the ephemeral wanderings of man.
Amen!
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And another couple of things, now that I've been thinking about this: where did the Church -- all the churches -- stand when it came to Social Security? To Medicare? Did they fight then, or were the church hierarchies only too happy to pass off to the government their duty of caring for the poor and sick?
As to the "pedophilia scandal": as far as I'm aware, "children" were not molested; boys were, and on the cusp of teen age or early teenagers. Fran Porretto wrote a piece on this long ago; there's a name for this disorder, ephebophilia.