It's About Liberty: A Conservative Forum
Topics => General Board => Topic started by: AmericanPatriot on December 03, 2013, 08:14:29 PM
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Last night, my kids and I were sitting in the living room and I said to them,
"I never want to live in a vegetative state, dependent on some machine and fluids from a bottle. If that ever happens, just pull the plug."...
They got up, unplugged the computer and threw out my wine!!
The little bastards!
::rolllaughing::
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::rolllaughing:: ::rolllaughing:: ::rolllaughing:: ::whoohoo:: ::rolllaughing::
Last night, my kids and I were sitting in the living room and I said to them,
"I never want to live in a vegetative state, dependent on some machine and fluids from a bottle. If that ever happens, just pull the plug."...
They got up, unplugged the computer and threw out my wine!!
The little bastards!
::rolllaughing::
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A few years back, the extended family was gathered around and the conversation turned to end-of-life. My folks were so adamant that they didn't want to live if they were "vegetables" and no matter what kind of conditions I would throw out there, they stuck to their guns.
After a while, I turned to my wife and kids and said with all seriousness in my voice, "Well guys, you hear how grandma and grandpa feel. I just want you to know that if I am ever a vegetable, you leave those damn tubes and plugs in, 'cuz I'm comin' back!"
That received a pretty good hoot, and served to lighten up the conversation a bit from my parents' determination to die at the first hangnail. Thing is, I was pretty serious. I value life as precious, and I've heard too many stories about people who were thought lost, who returned to their bodies.
I used to say, so long as one single loved one gains comfort by coming to the hospital or hospice and holding my hand; talking to me; praying for me; I want to remain alive for that person. When all my loved ones are ready to let me go, I can go then.
I think though, as I get a little older and have seen my grandparents approach their deaths dealing with several horrible years being kept alive by medical technology and pharmaceuticals - and my parents' fearful reaction to that - I am not so anxious to hang around after my mind and/or my body no longer function past a certain point.
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A few years back, the extended family was gathered around and the conversation turned to end-of-life. My folks were so adamant that they didn't want to live if they were "vegetables" and no matter what kind of conditions I would throw out there, they stuck to their guns.
After a while, I turned to my wife and kids and said with all seriousness in my voice, "Well guys, you hear how grandma and grandpa feel. I just want you to know that if I am ever a vegetable, you leave those damn tubes and plugs in, 'cuz I'm comin' back!"
That received a pretty good hoot, and served to lighten up the conversation a bit from my parents' determination to die at the first hangnail. Thing is, I was pretty serious. I value life as precious, and I've heard too many stories about people who were thought lost, who returned to their bodies.
I used to say, so long as one single loved one gains comfort by coming to the hospital or hospice and holding my hand; talking to me; praying for me; I want to remain alive for that person. When all my loved ones are ready to let me go, I can go then.
I think though, as I get a little older and have seen my grandparents approach their deaths dealing with several horrible years being kept alive by medical technology and pharmaceuticals - and my parents' fearful reaction to that - I am not so anxious to hang around after my mind and/or my body no longer function past a certain point.
Neither my wife nor I want any extreme measures taken to extend our lives. Our family knows this and agrees with us, but we hope that when push comes to shove no one is convinced by some sawbones to change their mind.
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I one is comfortable with where they're going to spend eternity, one doesn't need the several weeks/months of painful/vegetative/whatever in-between time getting there.
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Neither my wife nor I want any extreme measures taken to extend our lives. Our family knows this and agrees with us, but we hope that when push comes to shove no one is convinced by some sawbones to change their mind.
I feel the same way - largely because of the financial burden. With what is coming I would rather I died sooner and left my kids more to work with.
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Neither my wife nor I want any extreme measures taken to extend our lives. Our family knows this and agrees with us, but we hope that when push comes to shove no one is convinced by some sawbones to change their mind.
I feel the same way - largely because of the financial burden. With what is coming I would rather I died sooner and left my kids more to work with.
Not only because of the kids. I don't want my wife stuck with having to pay thousands, maybe tens of thousands, in medical bills because of me. And with idiotcare, who knows what will happen?
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I told the wife that I wanted to beashes after death and her answer was "and people in hell want ice water" so I went for my daughter and told her what I wanted and got the same responce more or less which just pisses me off but I'm dead and have no more control.
As for the plug pulling that's out too but I am tranfering what I do own slowly to my daughter as to keep the government out of it so year after year it goes away.
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I told the wife that I wanted to beashes after death and her answer was "and people in hell want ice water" so I went for my daughter and told her what I wanted and got the same responce more or less which just pisses me off but I'm dead and have no more control.
As for the plug pulling that's out too but I am tranfering what I do own slowly to my daughter as to keep the government out of it so year after year it goes away.
Actually, It probably make more sense to "keep living" - another reason to not go to the hospital. If I die at home, who is to say I died? Dig a hole. Throw me in. Buy me a boat ticket. Turns out I will be traveling and seeing the universe with a friend (is that really a lie? ). Keep transferring "gifts" with the power of attorney I gave you to take care of my affairs while I was gone. Write twenty years of letters from places around the world. No, I didn't keep the envelopes.
At some point (say when I am 110 or so) go through the crap to have me declared legally dead. Oh look. I set up a trust for the house and remaining assets no one wants to pay taxes on. How lucky for my kids and grandkids.
If the rule of law means nothing to those in charge, there is no reason it should mean anything to us either.
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I've already informed my wife and kids. I don't care how old I get, when I can't wipe my own butt, put a bullet in me.
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I wouldn't worry about it too much. With healthcare going to be under the control of these communists, there will be a lot of us who will go before our time due to the lack of care.
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I don't know what to say or think about this issue. Even when I was so sick and in so much pain at one point in my life, I didn't wish to die, but who knows what is to come? I certainly don't want to contribute to anyone's else's pain -- Gunsmith's -- by either dying "too soon" or not dying soon enough, and the money is definitely an issue.
I had an aunt who fought cancer and dealt with the chemo for ... a decade, I think .... and after she moved into hospice, she told my Mother she just wanted it to be over. (Devout Catholic, she wasn't going to have anyone hasten it nor do so herself.) And, shortly afterward, it was.
I think I'll leave it up to and trust in the Lord.
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I told the wife that I wanted to beashes after death and her answer was "and people in hell want ice water" so I went for my daughter and told her what I wanted and got the same responce more or less which just pisses me off but I'm dead and have no more control.
As for the plug pulling that's out too but I am tranfering what I do own slowly to my daughter as to keep the government out of it so year after year it goes away.
If it's what you want, you have a right to it John. Put it in legal writing. Cremation, specific end-of-life instructions. If your wife and daughter will not cede to your wishes, you can see that your wishes are followed nonetheless.
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Re; cremation, I used to think that anything but a traditional burial was out of the question. Over time I have concluded that for me, having my lips and eyes sewn shut, being stuffed, pickled, and preserved and buried to unnaturally decay over a longer time is a morbid practice.
I can scarcely imagine the advent of such a tradition, but that is neither here nor there. I most definitely wish to be cremated.
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I told CHF my wish as well was to be cremated and he objected on Biblical grounds.
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I told CHF my wish as well was to be cremated and he objected on Biblical grounds.
Really? I didn't know there were biblical grounds. I'd be interested to know what they are. Might have to change my view again!
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I told CHF my wish as well was to be cremated and he objected on Biblical grounds.
Really? I didn't know there were biblical grounds. I'd be interested to know what they are. Might have to change my view again!
Well, if he sees this, he'll be more than willing to propound.
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And propound I shall! LOL
There are essentially three principles that drive Christian doctrine. One, Direct commandment, two, necessary inference, and three, example.
There is no direct commandment that is all inclusive.
The necessary inference is that the bodies must be dealt with, but there is no necessary inference as to how.
But, there is plenty of example.
Before i get into that, let me deal with another issue. God CAN raise whom He will. No fire prevents resurrection, no burial at sea could either. So those lost in a natural fire or those who have lost loved ones that way have nothing to fear. Nor should there be fear for those lost at sea or eaten by wild animals, or whatever other cause of death one can imagine that might destroy the body.
Now, on to examples. The simple premise is that throughout all of scripture, Godly men buried Godly men. And pagans burned their dead. This was true both in the Old and New Testaments. Fire is reserved for punishment, not for disposing of bodies. The pattern goes back as far as we have records. There are over 100 records in scripture of the people of God being buried by other Godly men.
But, even more so, God Himself Buried Moses. He could have chosen any other method, but he chose burial. God punished Korah and his accomplices with fire, but Moses He buried. This does not appear to be just the traditions of men, but the way God Himself handled a beloved servants death.
5 So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. 6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day. 7 Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died. His eyes were not dim nor his natural vigor diminished. 8 And the children of Israel wept for Moses in the plains of Moab thirty days. So the days of weeping and mourning for Moses ended.
<Deuteronomy 34:5-7
New King James Version (NKJV)
5 So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. 6 And He buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth Peor; but no one knows his grave to this day. 7 Moses was one hundred and twenty years old when he died. His eyes were not dim nor his natural vigor diminished. >
The next example was Christ Himself, who was buried, and He likewise instituted Baptism for us, a likeness of His burial AND resurection:
<Romans 6:3-5
New King James Version (NKJV)
3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, >
Now for some examples of the regard that burning has:
<Genesis 38:24
And it came to pass, about three months after, that Judah was told, saying, “Tamar your daughter-in-law has played the harlot; furthermore she is with child by harlotry.” So Judah said, “Bring her out and let her be burned!”> Clearly punishment there.
Here also:<Numbers 11:1
Now when the people complained, it displeased the Lord; for the Lord heard it, and His anger was aroused. So the fire of the Lord burned among them, and consumed some in the outskirts of the camp.>
Now this example is also important as it shows the disgrace of being burned and the contempt of those who burned them. The man brought the Lord's anger on all Israel by stealing the devoted things.
Here the Psalmist speaks of punishing evil:
<Psalm 140:9-11
9 “As for the head of those who surround me,
Let the evil of their lips cover them;
10 Let burning coals fall upon them;
Let them be cast into the fire,
Into deep pits, that they rise not up again.
11 Let not a slanderer be established in the earth;
Let evil hunt the violent man to overthrow him.>
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<Jeremiah 7:31
And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart.>
I believe this speaks of sacrifices, but the Lord's word paints a picture of revulsion.
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Hmmm... Thank you for that CHF. New food to chew on. I have to say, your case seems pretty clear. Succinct as well. In other words, one doesn't have to stretch to accept the logic. It's kinda right up front.
Any books or sermons on the subject? I'd be interested in digesting both sides and coming to a decision. Thus far, my preference has been based only on feelings of revulsion at being preserved only to eventually decay.
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<Jeremiah 21:12
O house of David! Thus says the Lord: “Execute judgment in the morning; And deliver him who is plundered Out of the hand of the oppressor, Lest My fury go forth like fire And burn so that no one can quench it, Because of the evil of your doings.>
It is clear from scripture that fire is used two ways. Sacrifice and punishment. God does not allow human sacrifice or any sacrifice anymore since Christ was sacrificed once for all. So, when we burn our dead we dishonor them and ourselves, at least in my reading of the scriptures.
The examples show clearly that Godly men BURY Godly men. And Godly men burn evil men upon whom God has rendered judgment. Those whom I love, I will not burn. I see each one as a creation of God. Created in purity and restored to Holiness by their faith and obedience to Christ.
So, it comes down to example. We have 100 examples of Godly men being buried, we have the example of God himself Burying Moses, We have Christ's burial, and we have the continuing example of baptism, called a burial. We have the examples of God's punishment through fir of wicked men.
Does the lack of direct commandment mean we do not heed examples? Then why do we worship on the first day of the week? There is no direct commandment of timing, but the recorded example of the Apostles leads us almost all to the same conclusion.
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I have taught on this before....let me look for notes on the sermon....might have been BC.....before this computer.
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I told the wife that I wanted to be ashes after death and her answer was "and people in hell want ice water" so I went for my daughter and told her what I wanted and got the same responce more or less which just pisses me off but I'm dead and have no more control.
As for the plug pulling that's out too but I am transferring what I do own slowly to my daughter as to keep the government out of it so year after year it goes away.
If it's what you want, you have a right to it John. Put it in legal writing. Cremation, specific end-of-life instructions. If your wife and daughter will not cede to your wishes, you can see that your wishes are followed nonetheless.
I think it's there way of hanging on to something other than ashes. I see it as a waste because I'm still going to rot away it's not like I'll be propped up in a chair at the kitchen table for eternity. OH and my wife covered that base by saying that she doesn't give a shyt what I put in writing if she out lives me it's her way,period the end.(she's really a pain in the ass about me)
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I told the wife that I wanted to be ashes after death and her answer was "and people in hell want ice water" so I went for my daughter and told her what I wanted and got the same responce more or less which just pisses me off but I'm dead and have no more control.
As for the plug pulling that's out too but I am transferring what I do own slowly to my daughter as to keep the government out of it so year after year it goes away.
If it's what you want, you have a right to it John. Put it in legal writing. Cremation, specific end-of-life instructions. If your wife and daughter will not cede to your wishes, you can see that your wishes are followed nonetheless.
I think it's there way of hanging on to something other than ashes. I see it as a waste because I'm still going to rot away it's not like I'll be propped up in a chair at the kitchen table for eternity. OH and my wife covered that base by saying that she doesn't give a shyt what I put in writing if she out lives me it's her way,period the end.(she's really a pain in the ass about me)
It's very important to assign someone with the Power of Attorney. The family need not know about it, but that would be out of the normal realm of things. But you are already there. (Absolutely no insult intended.) That person's directions can supersede those of your family.
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I told the wife that I wanted to be ashes after death and her answer was "and people in hell want ice water" so I went for my daughter and told her what I wanted and got the same responce more or less which just pisses me off but I'm dead and have no more control.
As for the plug pulling that's out too but I am transferring what I do own slowly to my daughter as to keep the government out of it so year after year it goes away.
If it's what you want, you have a right to it John. Put it in legal writing. Cremation, specific end-of-life instructions. If your wife and daughter will not cede to your wishes, you can see that your wishes are followed nonetheless.
I think it's there way of hanging on to something other than ashes. I see it as a waste because I'm still going to rot away it's not like I'll be propped up in a chair at the kitchen table for eternity. OH and my wife covered that base by saying that she doesn't give a shyt what I put in writing if she out lives me it's her way,period the end.(she's really a pain in the ass about me)
Gunsmith sez he's gonna have me stuffed and sit me on the couch. I see lotsa dust in my future.
You do a legal go-around on Nan and you'll hear about for eternity, buried, burnt, whatever.
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<snip>
OH and my wife covered that base by saying that she doesn't give a shyt what I put in writing if she out lives me it's her way,period the end.(she's really a pain in the ass about me)
Legally speaking, in NC, when you die your actual body becomes "property of the estate" and it's up to the Executor of the Estate to follow the directs in the Last Will. So, if the Executor (or Executrix if you like old English sexism), is your spouse, odds are he/she will determine what to do with your earthly remains, regardless of your written directions.
What to do? Will your body to a specific person who you know will carry out your wish to be cremated.
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I told the wife that I wanted to be ashes after death and her answer was "and people in hell want ice water" so I went for my daughter and told her what I wanted and got the same responce more or less which just pisses me off but I'm dead and have no more control.
As for the plug pulling that's out too but I am transferring what I do own slowly to my daughter as to keep the government out of it so year after year it goes away.
If it's what you want, you have a right to it John. Put it in legal writing. Cremation, specific end-of-life instructions. If your wife and daughter will not cede to your wishes, you can see that your wishes are followed nonetheless.
I think it's there way of hanging on to something other than ashes. I see it as a waste because I'm still going to rot away it's not like I'll be propped up in a chair at the kitchen table for eternity. OH and my wife covered that base by saying that she doesn't give a shyt what I put in writing if she out lives me it's her way,period the end.(she's really a pain in the ass about me)
Gunsmith sez he's gonna have me stuffed and sit me on the couch. I see lotsa dust in my future.
You do a legal go-around on Nan and you'll hear about for eternity, buried, burnt, whatever.
You've met her and the rest here haven't so they have no idea what I'm up against.
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I told the wife that I wanted to be ashes after death and her answer was "and people in hell want ice water" so I went for my daughter and told her what I wanted and got the same responce more or less which just pisses me off but I'm dead and have no more control.
As for the plug pulling that's out too but I am transferring what I do own slowly to my daughter as to keep the government out of it so year after year it goes away.
If it's what you want, you have a right to it John. Put it in legal writing. Cremation, specific end-of-life instructions. If your wife and daughter will not cede to your wishes, you can see that your wishes are followed nonetheless.
I think it's there way of hanging on to something other than ashes. I see it as a waste because I'm still going to rot away it's not like I'll be propped up in a chair at the kitchen table for eternity. OH and my wife covered that base by saying that she doesn't give a shyt what I put in writing if she out lives me it's her way,period the end.(she's really a pain in the ass about me)
Gunsmith sez he's gonna have me stuffed and sit me on the couch. I see lotsa dust in my future.
You do a legal go-around on Nan and you'll hear about for eternity, buried, burnt, whatever.
You've met her and the rest here haven't so they have no idea what I'm up against.
I'm sensing she, too, must be related to my wife.
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I told my kids to drag me back into the corner of the field and let the animals eat me.
Maybe do more good dead than alive
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I told the wife that I wanted to be ashes after death and her answer was "and people in hell want ice water" so I went for my daughter and told her what I wanted and got the same responce more or less which just pisses me off but I'm dead and have no more control.
As for the plug pulling that's out too but I am transferring what I do own slowly to my daughter as to keep the government out of it so year after year it goes away.
If it's what you want, you have a right to it John. Put it in legal writing. Cremation, specific end-of-life instructions. If your wife and daughter will not cede to your wishes, you can see that your wishes are followed nonetheless.
I think it's there way of hanging on to something other than ashes. I see it as a waste because I'm still going to rot away it's not like I'll be propped up in a chair at the kitchen table for eternity. OH and my wife covered that base by saying that she doesn't give a shyt what I put in writing if she out lives me it's her way,period the end.(she's really a pain in the ass about me)
Gunsmith sez he's gonna have me stuffed and sit me on the couch. I see lotsa dust in my future.
You do a legal go-around on Nan and you'll hear about for eternity, buried, burnt, whatever.
You've met her and the rest here haven't so they have no idea what I'm up against.
I'm sensing she, too, must be related to my wife.
Honeypie, under the skin, we're *all* related to your wife. So, tell us, how do you refer to her when she's not around, hmm? Battleax, O(ld) L(ady), She Who Must Be Obeyed, what?
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Honeypie, under the skin, we're *all* related to your wife. So, tell us, how do you refer to her when she's not around, hmm? Battleax, O(ld) L(ady), She Who Must Be Obeyed, what?
Honest to God, 95% of the time when I speak about her, I say "the wife". I can remember my grandfather using that phrase when speaking to someone about my grandmother and it just stuck with me somehow. The other 5% I refer to her as "the Boss."
Have I mentioned I've been married a while? ::hysterical::
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Yep. And it shows. ;D
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Mrs Sailor pretty much preempted my desires on what to do with my carcass after I'm done with it. She went ahead and did the "prepaid funeral" thing and afterward told me about it and took me out to see the little patch of ground we'll be fertilizing.
I had hoped to be buried at sea from one of the ships I served in, figuring ships built in the late 1970's would still be in service. Not to be.
Caron beat me to the bottom of the ocean, sunk off Puerto Rico in December 2002. Nassau is sitting in mothballs in Beaumont Texas and will be going to the breakers shortly after the new America is commissioned.
Ah, well. It's not like I'm going to care what actually happens to the old carcass.
It's what could happen BEFORE I check out that has me concerned. Wife and I both have directed that "extraordinary" or "heroic" measures not be taken to keep our bodies alive if we're going to be vegetables, especially measures requiring a ventilator. My Dad lived on a vent for a while when I was a kid. He recovered from his injury and was off it after several weeks, but he hated it enough that he had written into his living will that he would not be kept on one again.
After he suffered a stroke and massive heart attack at age 72, about 15 years ago he needed a vent to survive, he would never again be able to breathe without one, his voluntary and involuntary motor control was nearly totally gone. After consulting his living will and determined he was still "with us" mentally and receiving permission from all 4 children (adults now) the doctor asked him point blank "do you understand what you are asking?" Looking right at the Doc, he nodded "yes." "Do you really want the ventilator removed?" "Yes." Taking us outside of Dad's room the doctor polled all 4 of us again. Understanding Dad's wishes we gave our assent. He left us, took a couple of nurses into the room and closed the door.
Today I work in the home health field and have serviced equipment in the homes of bed bound ventilator patients who still had all their mental faculties.
Shoot me, please.
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I don't appreciate the feel of the article, but it appears factual. (I perceive at least one error but it is the most exhaustive study I can find.)
<Cremation - What Does God Think?
David Cloud and Richard Anthony
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In a book recently published on the subject of Christian funerals, a writer gives the following advice regarding cremation: "Personally the minister may or may not approve of such proceedings. Privately, he is free to hold any opinion that he will. But officially he should keep an open mind. In the Christian religion there is nothing that frowns upon cremation or requires burial."
This is wrong and evil counsel. We feel it also a very strange statement, being made as it is by a pastor who professedly studies and believes the Bible. The sad fact is that the practice of cremation is quickly on the rise in the so-called "Christian" nations of the West. Until recently burial prevailed almost universally as the common method for disposal of the dead in Western nations, and cremation was looked upon as something practiced only by atheists or those totally ignorant of the Bible. The turn back to cremation can be seen in direct connection with the rapidly increasing apostasy from the Word of God in those nations where Christianity is the dominant faith.
In my home state, Florida, in America, a popular retirement area for the elderly due to its tropical climate, ads are taken out in local newspapers inviting people to join "clubs" for quite inexpensive fees, the membership of which allows one the "benefit" of discounts on cremation expenses.
All of this is against the Bible though. Cremation is a heathen custom, meaning a practice of people who do not have the Bible, or else have rejected its authority. And it is frightening to see Americans who in recent years commonly considered cremation wrong, now accept the abominable practice even with the blessing of their church leaders.
By now many are surely thinking, "How can this man be so certain cremation is wrong? Is it really important whether or not a dead body is burned or buried?" If the Bible did not speak clearly on this issue and give such clear example, it would indeed not matter. But when God has spoken, when He has shown the way, we dare not ignore His counsel for the popular thinking of modern man or modern preachers!
As proof of our contention that cremation is unchristian and unbiblical, we offer the following eight reasons. The basic outline for the following is from James Fraser's excellent book, Cremation – Is It Christian?, published by Loizeaux Brothers, Neptune, New Jersey. But let me also say that we had come to see that cremation is wrong, yea evil, long before we read Bro. Fraser's book. Our experiences as missionaries in Nepal and India and a study of God's Word had taught us this.
Cremation Has A Heathen Origin & Purpose, Whereas God's People Have Always Practiced Burial
At the outset let me answer an objection sometimes made at this point. The objection is, "Yes, God's people in the Bible practiced burial. The example is clearly there. But are we bound to follow these examples, as they are not direct commands?" The answer is given in no uncertain terms in Rom. 15:4, "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning..." And again in I Cor. 10:11 we read, "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." God is saying in these passages, Yes, you are to follow the Bible's examples as well as its direct instructions."
A Heathen Origin
Cremation as practiced today in the more technically advanced nations no longer has the physical ghastliness associated with cremations performed in the poorer parts of the world. The modern method incorporates the use of an exceedingly hot incinerator which reduces the body to ashes in a matter of minutes completely out of the view of loved ones and the public.
Not so in India, Nepal, and other parts of South Asia, the area of our missionary ministry. I am convinced that if Christians in America and Europe could stand with me beside the "holy" River Bagmati in Kathmandu, Nepal, and observe the burning of the body of a Hindu following the performance of the Hindu death rituals, they would cast aside in repulsion every thought of cremation being an acceptable Christian practice. Just five days ago I stood three or so feet from a burning corpse with a missionary pastor from Singapore and his wife who were visiting us. The head was already burnt beyond recognition and the skull split open due to internal expansion from the heat of the fire. The lower legs and feet were unscorched, as they were protruding from the pile of burning wood and stubble upon which the man's body lay. The professional Hindu burners were poking the body from time to time to keep the members in the fire and adding stubble and wood as needed. The bones were contracting and popping; the bodily organs were frying and the juices sizzling in the intense heat. My wife, a nurse with experience in a leprosy hospital and also in an intensive care ward, stood with another friend observing the ghastly sight from a distance, unwilling to come closer. The air for a hundred yards or more was filled with the unmistakable stench of burning flesh. When the fire had burnt most of the body, the ashes and remaining members were shoved into the river. This is cremation as has been practiced by heathen religions for untold centuries, but without the sanitized, "instant fry" method adopted in technically advanced nations and sanctified by apostate Christians as an "acceptable Christian practice."
Would you treat your loved ones so? Is this an acceptable Christian practice indeed? No sir, cremation is a heathen practice. It is of heathen origin and serves heathen purposes. There is nothing Christian about cremation. We were standing that day, as I have at other times, observing cremation in the surroundings from which the practice arose – idolatrous, Christless heathenism.
God's People Have Always Practiced Burial
Following are just a few examples. I challenge you to read the Bible from cover to cover and find one occasion in which one of God's people was cremated or given anything other than a decent and proper burial (except in a few cases involving God's anger, as we shall shortly see).
Abraham was buried – "Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people. And his sons Isaac and Ismael buried him in the cave of Machpelah..." (Gen. 25:8-10).
Sarah was buried – "And Sarah was an hundred and seven and twenty years old...And Sarah died in Kirjatharba...And Abraham came to mourn for Sarah, and to weep for her. And Abraham stood up from before his dead, and spake unto the sons of Heth, saying, I am a stranger and a sojourner with you: give me a possession of a burying place with you, that I may bury my dead out of my sight" (Gen. 23:1-4).
Rachel was buried – "And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath...And Jacob set a pillar upon her grave: that is the pillar of Rachel's grave unto this day" (Gen. 35:19-20).
Isaac was buried – "And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him" (Gen. 35:29).
Jacob was buried – "And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and yielded up the ghost, and was gathered unto his people...And when the days of his mourning were past...his sons carried him into the land of Canaan, and buried him in the cave of the field of Machpelah..." (Gen. 49:33; 50:4-13).
Joseph was buried – "So Joseph died, being an hundred and ten years old: and they embalmed him, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt" (Gen. 50:26).
Joshua was buried – "And it came to pass after these things, that Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of the LORD, died, being an hundred and ten years old. And they buried him..." (Josh. 24:29-30).
Eleazar was buried – "And Eleazar the son of Aaron died; and they buried him in a hill that pertained to Phinehas his son, which was given him in mount Ephraim." (Josh. 24:33).
Samuel was buried – "And Samuel died; and all the Israelites were gathered together, and lamented him, and buried him in his house at Ramah." (I Sam. 25:1).
David was buried – "So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David." (I Kings 2:10).
John the Baptist was buried – "And he sent, and beheaded John in the prison...and his disciples came, and took up the body, and buried it, and went and told Jesus." (Matt. 14:10-12).
Ananias and Sapphira were buried – "And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him...then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband." (Acts 5:5-10).
Stephen was buried – "And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him." (Acts 8:2).
Even When Burial Was Difficult
Even in difficult circumstances God's people in olden days practiced burial. For example, Joseph's body was kept for over 400 years in Egypt and then carried through the 40 years of wilderness wanderings before being buried in Palestine, the promised land.
"And Joseph said unto his brethren, I die: and God will surely visit you, and bring you out of this land unto the land which he sware to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence." (Gen. 50:24-25).
"And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you." (Ex. 13:19).
"And the bones of Joseph, which the children of Israel brought up out of Egypt, buried they in Shechem, in a parcel of ground which Jacob bought of the sons of Hamor the father of Shechem for an hundred pieces of silver..." (Josh. 24:32).
How much simpler it would have been for the Israelites to have cremated Joseph, then carried his ashes with them in a tiny container! But this they refused to do. Joseph, a follower of the one true God, a man who looked forward to the bodily resurrection, was given an honorable burial, as was every man of God in the Bible. <
God Practices Burial
"So Moses the servant of the Lord died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the Lord. And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day" (Deut. 34:5-6).
Cremation Is A Sign Of God's Curse
Throughout the Bible the destruction of a human body or of an object by fire is used as a sign of divine wrath. Consider with me some examples:
The example of Sodom and Gomorrah – "Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven" (Gen. 19:24). "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly" (II Pet. 2:6).
The example of Nadab and Abihu – "And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD" (Lev. 10:1-2).
The example of the men who rebelled with Korah – "And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense" (Num. 16:35).
The example of idols – "And he took the calf which they had made, and burnt it in the fire, and ground it to powder, and strawed it upon the water, and made the children of Israel drink of it" (Ex. 32:20). "The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the LORD thy God" (Deut. 7:25). "And they brought forth the images out of the house of Baal, and burned them" (II Kings 10:26). "And when they had left their gods there, David gave a commandment, and they were burned with fire" (I Cron. 14:12).
The example of magic books – "And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds. Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver" (Acts 19:18-19).
The example of the unsaved cast into the lake of fire for eternal punishment – "And whatsoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:15).
For A Person Not To Have A Proper Burial Was Considered Dishonor
Example of Jezebel – "And of Jezebel also spake the LORD, saying, The dogs shall eat Jezebel by the wall of Jezreel. Him that dieth of Ahab in the city the dogs shall eat; and him that dieth in the field shall the fowls of the air eat" (I Kings 21:23-24).
Example of the Midianites – "Do unto them as unto the Midianites; as to Sisera, as to Jabin, at the brook of Kison: Which perished at Endor: they became as dung for the earth" (Ps. 83:9-10).
The Christian's Body Belongs To God: It Is Not Ours To Destroy By Fire or Any Other Means
"What? Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's" (I Cor. 6:19-20). "For whether we live, we live unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's" (Rom. 14:8).
God Has Plainly Called Cremation Wickedness
"Thus saith the Lord; For three transgressions of Moab, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because he burned the bones of the king of Edom into lime" (Amos 2:1).
The Lord Jesus Was Buried, And He Is Our Great Example In All Things
"And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus. And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury. Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day; for the sepulchre was nigh at hand" (John 19:38-42).
In light of the above Bible teaching, the statement, "In the Christian religion there is nothing that frowns upon cremation or requires burial," proves to be untrue. Of course we cannot force people either to bury or not to bury. But the pastor or missionary must patiently share these truths with his people and with those who seek his assistance in the burial of loved ones. In these days of widespread apostasy and doctrinal confusion among professing Christian leaders, a clear voice in this matter is urgently needed.
Bury does not mean Under Ground
When scripture says a man was "buried," it does not mean, as it does today, that his body was placed underground in a casket. When a man was buried in scripture, he was always buried above ground. God's people were either buried in a cave, in a house, or in a sepulchre. A comparable thing today is to be buried in a Musolium, crypt, or pyre.
Your Questions Answered
"But how do you explain the passages in scripture which seem to suggest that dead bodies were cremated and only bones were left? Such as:
1 Samuel 31:12, "All the valiant men arose, and went all night, and took the body of Saul and the bodies of his sons from the wall of Bethshan, and came to Jabesh, and burnt them there."
Amos 6:10, "And a man's uncle shall take him up, and he that burneth him, to bring out the bones out of the house..."
Answer: When scripture speaks of burning someone, it means burning odours and divers kinds of spices for them. For example:
Jeremiah 34:5, "But thou shalt die in peace: and with the burnings of thy fathers, the former kings which were before thee, so shall they burn odours for thee; and they will lament thee, saying, Ah lord! for I have pronounced the word, saith the LORD."
Notice the above passage mentions the "burnings of thy fathers," (referring to the former kings, such as Saul) which is similar to when Amos 6:10 says "he that burneth him," or when 1 Samuel 31:12 says "burnt them." However, the above passage clarifies what this means by saying that they will "burn odours" for them when they die.
Here are two other passages which clarify what this burning is:
2 Chronicles 16:14, "And they buried him in his own sepulchres, which he had made for himself in the city of David, and laid him in the bed which was filled with sweet odours and divers kinds of spices prepared by the apothecaries' art: and they made a very great burning for him."
Notice in the above passage, they "buried" this man, and they made a "burning for him". This is what it means when they "burn" someone who died. It was considered an honour fit for a king. But sometimes, when a king was evil, the people would make no burning for that evil king:
2 Chronicles 21:19, "And it came to pass, that in process of time, after the end of two years, his bowels fell out by reason of his sickness: so he died of sore diseases. And his people made no burning for him, like the burning of his fathers."
As for the "bones" that were taken after this burning (Amos 6:10), it does not mean that all the flesh was burned off and only the bones remained. This word "bones" was a common expression to denote a dead body (with the flesh still on it).
Genesis 50:25-26, "And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence. So Joseph died, being an hundred and ten years old: and they embalmed him, and he was put in a coffin in Egypt."
Notice the "bones" are in reference to a dead body. And this body was "emblamed." One cannot embalm just bones alone, in order to embalm someone, they must have flesh. In addition, even if Amos 6:10 does describe a body being burned (which it does not), and there were only literal bones left after this burning, this directly contradicts the concept of cremation today! Because today, cremation turns all parts of the body into ashes, including the bones and coffin. Whereas in scripture, the bones were never consumed, but were buried in a coffin.
Therefore, when scripture speaks of "burning" the dead, it is speaking about burning "sweet odours and divers kinds of spices" for them" (2 Chronicles 16:14). And this explains why Mary was bringing sweet spices to the body of Jesus at his tomb:
Mark 16:1, "And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him."
Mary was going to burn sweet spices to annoint the dead body of Jesus.
"What about embalming and autopsies?
Answer: For centuries mummification was a wonderful and great privilege enjoyed by the pharaohs of Ancient Egypt. From about 2500 B.C. many more humans were able to hope for immortality by having themselves embalmed. Mummification remained an expensive business, well beyond most Egyptians.
Embalming was an operation and a pagan religious rite. It was presided by a priest that wore a jackal mask, representing Anubis, which was the god of embalming, and every superior step in the proceedings was assisted by chanting of prayers and spells.
An excellent embalming took 70 days. The first 40 days were dedicated to removing every single drop of moisture from the body to leave no breeding ground for the bacteria to cause decay. First the brain was removed, Then the internal organs were removed. Then the body was covered in natron, a kind of natural salt made of baking soda and salt that was put on the embalming table to dry out. After the forty days the body was blackened and shrivelled, but potentially immortal.
There is nothing in scripture about the people of God having their insides removed and their blood removed. God already tells us what to do to receive eternal life
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Well, a heathen or not, I don't want to be in some forgotten grave that one day no one will care about.
But that's me. I'd never assume to tell anyone else what they should do.