Author Topic: "You can have sex with animals", you just can't "keep" them without a license  (Read 2035 times)

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Online Pandora

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Killing of 9 penned deer in NC draws outrage

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RALEIGH, N.C. -- The killing of nine penned deer - including a fawn and a deer with one eye - has stirred international outrage on the web and has the animals' caretakers asking why North Carolina officials shot the animals.

The seven fallow deer and two white-tailed deer were killed Sept. 20 in a pen on the farm of Wayne and Linda Kindley, who live near Asheboro. Wayne Kindley said officers surrounded his home that day and said the animals had to be shot because he didn't have a license to keep deer.

"I sat and actually watched them shoot the deer," Kindley said Monday, adding that he counted five game wardens' vehicles and four Randolph County sheriff's cars on his property. He added, "I saw them shoot one deer and I just put my head down on the back of a truck and about went to my knees. I just about went limp."

Is it time?



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Offline John Florida

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Offline Libertas

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I say whack job leftists with bureaucratic jobs that gives them then impression they can act like a bunch of mini-Caesars indicate a need for more citizen Senators to rise up and end their tyranny.

But that's just me...

And what, the meat just gets thrown in the trash?

Pathetic.
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline BigAlSouth

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Hey, call the Wildlife Resources Commission and the Sheriff's Department. Old Jed down near Bear Creek has a bunch of Libs penned up. Don't know bout their origin either . . .
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Offline IronDioPriest

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The rest of the article for context is interesting.

It seems that there is a compelling interest for a state's wildlife management to permit captive deer in order to set standards for captivity, record of origin, proliferation of the herd, etc. Management of the wild deer population is serious business, and chronic wasting disease is a real problem.

On the one hand, the guy was warned in 2003, sought a permit, was denied, and continued to keep the animals illegally until now. On the other hand, the warrant doesn't authorize euthanasia of the animals on site - only seizing and holding the animals until a further ruling of the court.

In other words, it looks like there was a reason for the state to intervene, but that due process was completely violated.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline Libertas

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The rest of the article for context is interesting.

It seems that there is a compelling interest for a state's wildlife management to permit captive deer in order to set standards for captivity, record of origin, proliferation of the herd, etc. Management of the wild deer population is serious business, and chronic wasting disease is a real problem.

On the one hand, the guy was warned in 2003, sought a permit, was denied, and continued to keep the animals illegally until now. On the other hand, the warrant doesn't authorize euthanasia of the animals on site - only seizing and holding the animals until a further ruling of the court.

In other words, it looks like there was a reason for the state to intervene, but that due process was completely violated.

An all too common theme in latter day America...
We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.

Offline LadyVirginia

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Hey, call the Wildlife Resources Commission and the Sheriff's Department. Old Jed down near Bear Creek has a bunch of Libs penned up. Don't know bout their origin either . . .

They're probably rabid so best be safe.......
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Online Pandora

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The rest of the article for context is interesting.

It seems that there is a compelling interest for a state's wildlife management to permit captive deer in order to set standards for captivity, record of origin, proliferation of the herd, etc. Management of the wild deer population is serious business, and chronic wasting disease is a real problem.

On the one hand, the guy was warned in 2003, sought a permit, was denied, and continued to keep the animals illegally until now. On the other hand, the warrant doesn't authorize euthanasia of the animals on site - only seizing and holding the animals until a further ruling of the court.

In other words, it looks like there was a reason for the state to intervene, but that due process was completely violated.

I had read the whole article as well, IDP.  I need a better reason than "compelling interest" for the state to take a position at all on the issue.  The State has assumed ownership of all deer for the purposes of "protecting" them -- for "the people", of course -- so in the course of making them "everybody's deer", they're now "nobody but the government's deer" and a private individual taking an "interest" without the government's permission is tantamount to poaching the King's game.

If you lived anywhere around here, you'd see for yourself that "management" of the wild deer population by the state is a joke; thanks to the environazis, hunting is so strictly regulated, we're literally overrun. Then we're treated to a scolding about how humans are "crowding the deer out of their habitat" and all such bullspit, when the fact is the deer's only natural predator around here -- people -- are not permitted to keep the population numbers reasonable. 

If chronic wasting disease is the widespread problem as claimed, I see no evidence of it; the multiple large herds around here are the healthiest bunch of foliage despoilers you'd never want to see after your Azaleas.  ::falldownshocked::   Furthermore, it is a well-known tactic by the government to claim a health issue/endangered species/crisis in order to acquire control, even if it requires manufacturing the evidence.

In conclusion, yes, the man broke the law, but did nothing wrong.  The authorities broke their own law and DID do wrong.

In my opinion, there's no good reason for the law; it simply makes criminals of people doing no harm nor wrong.
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Offline IronDioPriest

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The rest of the article for context is interesting.

It seems that there is a compelling interest for a state's wildlife management to permit captive deer in order to set standards for captivity, record of origin, proliferation of the herd, etc. Management of the wild deer population is serious business, and chronic wasting disease is a real problem.

On the one hand, the guy was warned in 2003, sought a permit, was denied, and continued to keep the animals illegally until now. On the other hand, the warrant doesn't authorize euthanasia of the animals on site - only seizing and holding the animals until a further ruling of the court.

In other words, it looks like there was a reason for the state to intervene, but that due process was completely violated.

I had read the whole article as well, IDP.  I need a better reason than "compelling interest" for the state to take a position at all on the issue.  The State has assumed ownership of all deer for the purposes of "protecting" them -- for "the people", of course -- so in the course of making them "everybody's deer", they're now "nobody but the government's deer" and a private individual taking an "interest" without the government's permission is tantamount to poaching the King's game.

If you lived anywhere around here, you'd see for yourself that "management" of the wild deer population by the state is a joke; thanks to the environazis, hunting is so strictly regulated, we're literally overrun. Then we're treated to a scolding about how humans are "crowding the deer out of their habitat" and all such bullspit, when the fact is the deer's only natural predator around here -- people -- are not permitted to keep the population numbers reasonable. 

If chronic wasting disease is the widespread problem as claimed, I see no evidence of it; the multiple large herds around here are the healthiest bunch of foliage despoilers you'd never want to see after your Azaleas.  ::falldownshocked::   Furthermore, it is a well-known tactic by the government to claim a health issue/endangered species/crisis in order to acquire control, even if it requires manufacturing the evidence.

In conclusion, yes, the man broke the law, but did nothing wrong.  The authorities broke their own law and DID do wrong.

In my opinion, there's no good reason for the law; it simply makes criminals of people doing no harm nor wrong.

That may be Pan. I know nothing of NC, so I based my comment on what I know about MN.

I know that here in MN, our deer population is strictly managed as a resource. We have problems with herds too close to cities and such too. But each fall we have around 1,000,000 hunters hit the woods. That's about 20% of Minnesotans. That number alone constitutes a "compelling state interest" - at least in my mind. The state manages deer as a resource for the public good and public interest as well as economic benefit to the state - both private business and state coffers. Part of that management is population control, quantity, and health. They count and estimate population; monitor disease, starvation, natural predation; and adjust harvest limits accordingly.

There are "deer farms" and petting zoos in various tourist locations. I don't know for sure, but my guess would be that they are regulated to ensure containment, veterinary records, and whatever other compliance must be met in order to ensure that the wild deer population is not affected by these businesses. I think that given the taxpayer resources that go into management of the wild population, regulating these businesses is logical and justified.

The one thing we DO have to worry about here that you don't in NC is winterkill. That may be the difference right there, in why we may need more invasive management here as compared to there. A particularly harsh winter with deep snow cover can kill an awful lot of deer.

But if I was going to make an assumption that the NC regulations exist for roughly the same reason they exist in MN, I would say that given the fact that the guy was warned in 2003 and continued to thwart the law (I keep thinking there must be SOME reason they didn't issue him a $50 permit), the state believed it was justified in intervening - but went off the rails in violating the guys due process by killing his animals without a warrant to do so.

I have to admit, there is a part of me that is curious as to the conditions these animals were living in, and the condition of their health at the time of the state intervention. Something's not adding up in my mind.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Online Pandora

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You are a fisherman, so I understand your point of view coming from that perspective.

You know how I am about government regulating anything -- there better be a damn good reason -- and while I am really trying to get there, I'm having difficulty with the idea of "resource management" as applies to wild deer.  If the State wasn't using tax money to "manage", there'd be no need for fees and licenses.  While they're "managing" the deer, they're managing us as well, to the point where this guy is in legal trouble for having nine live "illegal" deer.

What would happen to the deer if the State wasn't managing them?  The probably presumption is they'd be overhunted, yes?
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Offline IronDioPriest

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What would happen to the deer if the State wasn't managing them?  The probably presumption is they'd be overhunted, yes?

From my understanding, that is only one concern. Because of human encroachment on wildlife habitat, the ecosystem gets out of whack. The balance of predators/prey, the availability of nesting ground/forage and access lanes to them, hunting pressure, and likely other factors that are not springing to mind right now - are all affected by the consistent and gradual expansion of human population.

You remember in school, when they taught about balance in ecosystems - too many wolves eat all the rabbits, wolves die out, area gets overrun by rabbits, etc. The human encroachment on wildlife - particularly large game species - would have such an effect, if not for species management.  Too many deer crowded into too small an area by human encroachment, and there will not be enough territory or food, and deer will die off. Too few, and natural predators will die, and/or hunting for sport will be adversely affected.

In effect, the wildlife management folks take "X hunters/harvested animals" into account, and use the money in license fees to "plan out" how to keep the population within certain limits. Thus, hunting preserves the species and keeps it healthy and abundant within a limit that meets human needs and the proliferation of the species.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

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Too many deer crowded into too small an area by human encroachment, and there will not be enough territory or food, and deer will die off. Too few, and natural predators will die, and/or hunting for sport will be adversely affected.

Whup!  You mashed the button there with that one!  I don't see humans as "encroaching".  As I'd written, that claim is misused -- at least here -- as a way to berate people for living and/or wanting a decent place to live.

Quote
In effect, the wildlife management folks take "X hunters/harvested animals" into account, and use the money in license fees to "plan out" how to keep the population within certain limits. Thus, hunting preserves the species and keeps it healthy and abundant within a limit that meets human needs and the proliferation of the species.

No doubt the deer have natural predators, including the weather as you stated, in MN; here, they don't, aside from the hunters.   I don't have numbers from the wildlife "management" bureau to which you refer, so it's only a suspicion, based on eye-witness right at my house, that the deer here are being deliberately or ignorantly under-managed.

Don't mistake me, I don't want to see them wiped out, but I'm heavily resentful about the government's appropriation of the whole issue.  If it was up to me, I'd see this be a function performed on privately owned preserves.  As it stands now, much of the nesting ground/forage and access lanes to the deer is already occurring on privately-owned land -- yes, that would be my garden/azaleas/ornamental trees and that of my neighbors.  The deer sleep in my tree-line, train the fawns where to come for food  ^^ and park them in backyard; last summer we had the Pandora Baby-Deer-Daycare going on back there.

So, the costs of this accrue to the individual property owners, the benefits accrue to the State which then parcels that out to the hunters.  And some poor schmuck gets in legal hot-water for penning what already lives on his land.
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Offline BigAlSouth

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NC Wildlife Resources Commission: We had to kill 'em so that others could live . . .
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are outnumbered by those who vote for a living.
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Offline IronDioPriest

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All I mean by "encroach" is human development moving into an area previously occupied by wildlife; not that it is something negative.

Sounds like a whole different ballgame between Minnesota and NC. Deer hunting and wildlife management as a whole are taken for granted as essential to the character of the state and questioning the existence of wildlife mgmt or the need to fund it at the state level is not generally an issue.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline Thresherman

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From the Declaration of Independence:
"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"
bolding mine.

Too often we see bureaucratic over-reach and out and out stupidity explained away as "for the public good" as if that suddenly excuses the abuses.  Never mind that they often fail to demonstrate just how that supposed good is served. 

My great fear is not that there will be some despot come to power and take away our rights by sweeping fiat like Chavex in Venezula.  Rather that they will be extinguished by a slowly encroaching bureaucracy, nibbled to death by ducks as it were.  Each new generation not knowing or at least understanding what was lost by the previous generation and surrendering just a little more, all in the name of public good mind you, until eventually our republic will no longer even remotely resemble what was given to us origanally by the founding fathers.

Most of us are of an age where we can recall that scrapes, bruises, and even broken bones were a normal part of growing up instead of a justification for a social worker to alledge child abuse and try to take your children away.  Should you have the unmitigated gall to let your child get on a bicycle without a helmet will cause all sorts of people to act like Donald Sutherland in the final scene of Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

More and more, I am becoming convinced that we need to resist these small incursions on our liberty as they pose a long term threat to the liberty of our posterity.


Offline LadyVirginia

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Most of us are of an age where we can recall that scrapes, bruises, and even broken bones were a normal part of growing up instead of a justification for a social worker to alledge child abuse and try to take your children away.  Should you have the unmitigated gall to let your child get on a bicycle without a helmet will cause all sorts of people to act like Donald Sutherland in the final scene of Invasion of the Body Snatchers.

More and more, I am becoming convinced that we need to resist these small incursions on our liberty as they pose a long term threat to the liberty of our posterity.



I honestly don't think most people can "see" those threats....I'm thinking of the woman I saw backing up one handed while on the phone.  Nothing will get through to her!
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