Author Topic: Propriety & the price  (Read 2183 times)

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charlesoakwood

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Propriety & the price
« on: May 21, 2011, 08:51:15 PM »

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Re: Propriety & the price
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2011, 09:03:24 PM »
Indeed.

Quote
I have looked out on the nation, straining my eyes to see the coming wave of patriotic defenders of liberty and am lost in darkness and (mostly) alone. I have called for action into the hollowness and received echoes. I have taken small steps of resistance on my own, but they are a pathetic cry of futility if they are anything at all...

....The reason there is a limit to what we will all do, is that none of us want to go to prison. None of us want our families to suffer for our political stance and beliefs. We all think that there will come a time when climbing out of the hole and making a stand will be necessary, though we disagree on the justification for that act.

We are held captive to our own sense of propriety....
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Online Glock32

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Re: Propriety & the price
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2011, 10:00:59 PM »
He has described the dilemma better than I've seen perhaps anywhere. We are indeed constrained by our own values, and ironically it is the rigid adherence to them that is paving the way for their ultimate undoing. This is unquestionably what Alinsky alluded to in his Rule, "force the enemy to abide by his own code".

At some point the question will have to be answered, are we willing to cede the free republic to those who would pervert it beyond recognition just because they're more willing than we are to get in the trenches? I then ask, ignoring the obvious cultural ephemera and advances in technology, would the Founders say that the republic is already perverted beyond recognition? I would expect absolute unanimity in their answer in the affirmative.

Jefferson saw this long ago, and this is but one of many of his observations that have taken on new relevance:

Quote
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the
high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest.  The
laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country
when in danger, are of higher obligation.  To lose our country
by a scrupulous adherence to written law would be to lose the law
itself, with life, liberty, property, and all those who are
enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the
means."
"The Fourth Estate is less honorable than the First Profession."

- Yours Truly

Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: Propriety & the price
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2011, 10:17:42 PM »
He has described the dilemma better than I've seen perhaps anywhere. We are indeed constrained by our own values, and ironically it is the rigid adherence to them that is paving the way for their ultimate undoing.


Yeap.

"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

Online IronDioPriest

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Re: Propriety & the price
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2011, 10:50:54 PM »
Quote
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the
high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest.  The
laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country
when in danger, are of higher obligation.  To lose our country
by a scrupulous adherence to written law would be to lose the law
itself, with life, liberty, property, and all those who are
enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the
means."

I used that quote at CT & IAF as my siggy. I bounce between that and a few other FF faves. This particular quote definitely provides a bit of FF wisdom to counter the conundrum expressed in the linked blog post.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline rickl

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Re: Propriety & the price
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2011, 03:45:18 AM »
He has described the dilemma better than I've seen perhaps anywhere. We are indeed constrained by our own values, and ironically it is the rigid adherence to them that is paving the way for their ultimate undoing. This is unquestionably what Alinsky alluded to in his Rule, "force the enemy to abide by his own code".

It's been years since I read Atlas Shrugged, but Ayn Rand was probably talking about more or less the same thing with her phrase "The Sanction of the Victim".
We are so far past and beyond the “long train of abuses and usurpations” that the Colonists and Founders experienced and which necessitated the Revolutionary War that they aren’t even visible in the rear-view mirror.
~ Ann Barnhardt

RickZ

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Re: Propriety & the price
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2011, 05:23:03 AM »
Quote
We all think that there will come a time when climbing out of the hole and making a stand will be necessary, though we disagree on the justification for that act.

I think the reason for people not acting now is simpler, much simpler, and goes to the herd mentality.  Like the water buffalo standing on a riverbank before the impetus to cross a river full of crocodiles becomes too strong to ignore, no one person wants to be the first to stand up to the excesses of government and take action.  Those going first make easy targets for the government just as the first water buffalo to attempt to cross that crocodile-infested river make a tasty meal.  But once the crush of the water buffalo behind those standing on the bank in trepidation at crossing becomes too strong to resist, the logjam is broken and the crossing begins en masse.  That is what I think will happen with the Revolution 2.0.  Once the logjam of passivity is broken, then the full scale pushback against overbearing government intrusion will begin en masse.

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Re: Propriety & the price
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2011, 07:25:03 AM »
Everyone who understands the gravity of the situation knows within themselves right now that if they dare do what they think needs doing, they will be alone or labeled as one of a few extremists. They would ruin their lives for no good result.

It is going to take much more than one; a hundred; a thousand; or ten-thousand bold individuals willing to risk life, limb, property, and liberty. It's going to take massive resistance, probably by a coalition of states and corporations refusing to capitulate, which in turn emboldens the people to take matters into their own hands.

To attempt to oust this regime - and I mean the whole shebang - sort out their mess, and restore constitutional rule of law with too small and weak a showing will only give the regime every excuse it needs to take things the rest of the way.
"A strict observance of the written laws is doubtless one of the high duties of a good citizen, but it is not the highest. The laws of necessity, of self-preservation, of saving our country when in danger, are of higher obligation. To lose our country by a scrupulous adherence to written law, would be to lose the law itself, with life, liberty, property and all those who are enjoying them with us; thus absurdly sacrificing the end to the means."

- Thomas Jefferson

Offline warpmine

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Re: Propriety & the price
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2011, 10:28:51 AM »
You're saying we need a State such as Texas to start it or perhaps from the South once again we're calling on S.C. to stand up and be counted to revolt against the tyranny of this unwholy government.

As it stands right now, most of are afraid our peers won't stand with them and watch over their families whilst the revolt is initiated. For it's part the government has their infiltrators everywhere vilating the basic premise of our constitutional government without a thought "am I on the wrong side or the right side?"

This situation is the reasons for all those predictions of "the end of time" scenario. Many are recognizing the signs.

 
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The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.

Offline Libertas

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Re: Propriety & the price
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2011, 11:26:56 AM »
The closing paragraph in that link says it all.
GOP? - Nope. No more. They made their bed, now let them die in it.*
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Re: Propriety & the price
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2011, 12:14:14 PM »
I think it's going to require certain other circumstances falling into place, such as an economic collapse or partial collapse. Jefferson also noted, in the DoI, that experience has always shown people are inclined to endure injustice when doing so is not excessively onerous. The statists' mission is built on a cynical understanding of this tendency, but the statists have a tendency of their own, and it is one that will inevitably begin to weaken that other aforementioned tendency of the people to endure injustices. That the insults to the American traditions of individual liberty and free enterprise are now coming harder and faster may yet prove to be a major, if ironic, advantage. I also think any sort of collective resistance, when it comes, will be preceded by numerous unrelated instances of certain individuals who have reached a point where they feel like they have nothing left to lose. The statists' response to that will likely be to heap further injustices upon the citizenry.

And I do agree that resistance from states is what will begin the process of creating an air of legitimacy to the notion that the federal government cannot do whatever it wants just because it says it can. We're already starting to see this air of legitimacy, with various states passing laws about manufacture of firearms, light bulbs, border security, anti-Obamacare, and so on.
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Offline Libertas

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Re: Propriety & the price
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2011, 12:34:21 PM »
I think it's going to require certain other circumstances falling into place, such as an economic collapse or partial collapse. Jefferson also noted, in the DoI, that experience has always shown people are inclined to endure injustice when doing so is not excessively onerous. The statists' mission is built on a cynical understanding of this tendency, but the statists have a tendency of their own, and it is one that will inevitably begin to weaken that other aforementioned tendency of the people to endure injustices. That the insults to the American traditions of individual liberty and free enterprise are now coming harder and faster may yet prove to be a major, if ironic, advantage. I also think any sort of collective resistance, when it comes, will be preceded by numerous unrelated instances of certain individuals who have reached a point where they feel like they have nothing left to lose. The statists' response to that will likely be to heap further injustices upon the citizenry.

And I do agree that resistance from states is what will begin the process of creating an air of legitimacy to the notion that the federal government cannot do whatever it wants just because it says it can. We're already starting to see this air of legitimacy, with various states passing laws about manufacture of firearms, light bulbs, border security, anti-Obamacare, and so on.

I agree with your statement and the correct interpretation of Jeffersonian thought that you apply.

We are piling more burden upon the nations back, something, I fear something inevitable, is going to cause a break.  It seems we are speeding toward it and that this coincides with almost universal Proglodyte control of our institutions is not in my opinion a coincidence, it is a design coming to fruition.  More airs of legitimacy are needed, the moral high ground must be gained, and The Founders provide the map...we just need more men and women of good conscience to rally to the cause.
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Offline LadyVirginia

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Re: Propriety & the price
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2011, 12:50:28 PM »
...we just need more men and women of good conscience to rally to the cause.

I believe it can and will happen--

-- and we have to call upon God for assistence/strength
"And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."

Offline Libertas

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Re: Propriety & the price
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2011, 12:52:14 PM »
...we just need more men and women of good conscience to rally to the cause.

I believe it can and will happen--

-- and we have to call upon God for assistence/strength

Youbetchya!

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Offline rickl

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Re: Propriety & the price
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2011, 01:02:06 PM »
I left a comment over there with a link back to this thread.  (Which means that's another place where I can comment.)
We are so far past and beyond the “long train of abuses and usurpations” that the Colonists and Founders experienced and which necessitated the Revolutionary War that they aren’t even visible in the rear-view mirror.
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Offline BigAlSouth

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Re: Propriety & the price
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2011, 06:55:07 AM »
This is where he lost me:

Quote
I don't want to be labeled a tax cheat, but I find refusing to pay taxes wherever and whenever possible a legitimate means of starving the monkey. I don't want to be labeled a criminal, but I refuse to answer threatening letters from the IRS, or the Colorado Department of the Treasury. I just won't.

I have talked at great lengths to men who believe in their hearts that the income tax law is unconstitutional and any good citizen is obligated to refuse to pay. Sorry, my friend. This is the best way to become a resident of the Prison Industrial Complex. There are better ways to protest. Being a tax cheat is not going to win you any friends other than the fringe right or left who do not believe in paying taxes at all. You say you want a revolution? Want to starve the Monkey? Sorry, friend. That Monkey has more guns that you can deal with and they ain't afraid to use them. Good luck arguing to a Federal Judge that the taxes that pay his salary, and his retirement plan, are collected unconstitutionally.

KInda hard to revolt against the man doing a few years in the Fed.
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