Dead or In Jail: Nugent

[John Florida]

OK, so let's alter and abolish the form of government, and see what fills the vacuum. Somebody tell me where to start. Seems to me we have two choices. We can either start shooting, or we can try like hell to eradicate the ruling class from power and restore some semblance of constitutional civil government.

I look to 2010 and while I am gravely disappointed in leadership, and feel hamstrung by those confounded founding fathers for being so damned good at devising separation of powers, I still hold on to what can happen if the people are awakened from their slumber. In my opinion we need MORE of what led to 2010, to REALLY drive the point home. Not less. The defiance of the ruling class tells me that we need to smack them again, and again, and again - not let them regroup and win the day.

One may think that a grassroots effort by Tea Party types to repeat in the senate and the White House what happened in the house in 2010 is a wasted effort because things are so far gone. Does that mean trying like hell has no value?

Trap has made the point that what we face is an existential crisis, but nothing compared to that faced by the WWII generation, the depression era generation, or modern day Israel - or what Israel has faced throughout its existence for that matter. He's right, and it speaks to my point earlier. As damaged as things are and as grave as things look, we still have more freedom and more wealth and more resources and more infrastructure than any society humanity has ever known.

Now is not the time to abandon ship, in my opinion. Now is time to bail like motherf**kers, and keep bailing until the last lifeboat is launched. Maybe if we bail hard enough we'll uncover the breach and we can start plugging the hole.

 I see shooting as strictly a defensive play.In other word let them get the first shot and then you have all the legal and moral right to defend yourself in any way you see fit.I was told by a friend that they(the left) have guns and are armed and willing to start a shooting war,my answer is that's fine with me. I'm not going to let them dictate the dance steps any more than the first step after that it's my dance.

 I want to occupy their minds first,get under their skin by not responding when they want me to but rather when I'm ready to.

[Weisshaupt]

Shooting coyotes was a step too far, our economy isn't mortally wounded,
working to secure the house and senate is the ticket, by all means yes - let
them make the first move (keep your powder dry hold your water)
and time we'll have till they slip the ropes.

If this isn't mortally wounded,  I would like to know under what conditions you think it would be "mortally wounded?"  The Stock Market is only at 13K because of inflation. The too big to fail bangs are now even bigger because of the printing.  The real value of the dollar is falling, and many countries are making the deals that would remove oil from the Dollar equation.  You and I have already been through the numbers of what an "austerity program" would need to look like, and we are now 4 Trillion MORE in debt, with 20 Trillion more in unfunded liabilities  than we were then. No one is in the markets at all.
Our manufacturing base  has dried up and moved overseas, along with much of the know how. Government regulations, Taxes and Class Warfare are preventing businesses from being started. The entire structure is on the life support of the liquidity pump at the fed, and each new round of liquidity has less and less effect

Yes, I understand there are lots of unemployed American workers, a Can-Do attitude, smart people, etc. They  can not now produce the growth required to bring us out of this. A necessary requirement of restoring fiscal sanity is letting bond rates rise - as Reagan was forced to do - and that means any debt the government does take out, must pay higher interest. As such, you will need a decade of double digit growth, while all but ABOLISHING welfare, medicare, medicaid, and  Social Security to repair the damage.  Ryan's plan is based on the CBOs numbers and those are just so unrealistically optimistic  they should come with a free unicorn.  And should Ryan plan be implemented, it will cause a huge voting backlash  - raise the retirement age for SS on people who are 30? They rioted in Greece over that. And you then loose both houses 2 years later, and Romney, go along to get along, will pass anything the new houses put up.  

This economy - the world economy, the  one based on the Federal Reserve and the Dollar is done. Its a world economy after all. The Crew of the Titanic knew 10 minutes after she was struck she was going down. They could do math.  Its not a question of If. Its a question of When. I suspect tht there is an 80%  chance these chickens will be home by 2016.

[trapeze]

Trap, if as you say "talk is cheap", why the objection to what is being said?  You are nailing us down to the double-standard the Left has imposed on people!  Break your chains!  The 1st Amendment is as much ours as it is theirs!  Did Ben Franklin and Sam Adams dial back their criticism and rhetoric of the Crown because the Crown wished it?  And "lowering to their level"?  Come on, man?!  That's a low blow!  We are not looking to take to the streets and riot, vandalize, pillage and poop on cops!  Why do you want to lump us with that ilk?  We are talking about speech and the freedom to employ it as we see fit!

"Lowering to their level" in no way was meant to imply a comparison between us and the OWS trash's behavior. What I was saying is that they can say anything (and they do) and get away with it.

When we start to engage them verbally using the same level of inflammatory rhetoric we will always be held accountable by the media and that does not help us win elections. (and if anyone brings up "tone" I will be insulted...no one here, myself included, is telling anyone what they may or may not say on this forum...this is a discussion about tactics and strategy as far as I'm concerned)

It is my belief that we need to paint ourselves as the reasonable alternative to their ranting and raving. And that's because we are the reasonable alternative. We beat them on the merits every single time. They can't win the arguments on the merits and that is why you here the nutty talk coming from their side.

And as many of us have pointed out time and again, we do not have time, no way, no how.  80 years...we would be extremely fortunate if we had 1/8 that time, and 100 years of proglodyte trash is not going to get swept away in one decade even if relatively sane people were in the WH & Congress, Congress especially being guaranteed to be slim majorities given the political polarization is likely to get much more pronounced, not less.

You say we still have rule of law?  Indeed.  What is our duty?  Simple.  We the People are supreme.  The Constitution is ours, sections do not belong to one group and other sections to another, all are equal under it.  Where do we get our authority?  From our creator.

I think that it can happen. Look to Wisconsin. Who would have thought that the public sector unions could have their power so severely curtailed so quickly? Obviously not the unions judging by their reaction to what happened at the polls and what is about to happen again.

Are we going to be in trouble with fiscal and monetary issues? Of course. But we aren't alone...the whole world is screwed up. As bad as our economic issues are, though, we are still in a position to pick ourselves back up and emerge stronger than any other nation on earth.

Despite the recent assaults on our freedoms we are still the free-est nation on earth. There is no place better. And that is because of our Constitution. Just because we have an administration right now that chooses to ignore it does not mean that it has gone away. These clowns are going to be swept from power. We will emerge from this crisis and we will probably be better for it.

All I am saying is that I don't believe we are anywhere near the point of having to throw down yet. I am as willing as anyone else, if and when that time comes, to do so. But until that point arrives I just don't see the point in 1) handing the opposition a club to beat us with and 2) tipping our hand. I can't predict the future anymore or any better than anyone else but I can look where we've been, what we've gone through as a country and use it as a guide. We have been through worse.

[Weisshaupt]

Will the rule of law be dead and buried if ObamaCare is overturned? Or when Heller was vindicated?

The rule of law is damaged egregiously. The courts are populated with tools. The capitol with morons. But the founding concepts and framework still lives, if we are willing to fight for their restoration.

When those decisions are in question? Yes, that means the rule of law is dead.  The whole point of having a law is that it makes events predictable - that you know in advance what you can and cannot do, and the consequences.  You do Not have rule of law when you can start a business raising pigs and then have the government come in and decide those pigs are now an invasive species. That is why Obamacare is paralyzing  to business - because the rules are undefined.  The government is now wielding power capriciously and with malice towards certain individuals. You are no longer secure in your rights or home, because the outcome in a court is now a crap shoot. Just because the crap shoot will sometimes result in Justice being done, doesn't mean you have the rule of law. The rule of law means  that justice isn't determined by a role of the dice on who presides in your court, or what prosecutor you get.  I fully expect the Zimmerman case to look like a scene out of To Kill a Mockingbird.  The rule of Law only exists if one can reasonably expect the law will be followed in a court of law a very high percentage of the time.

Yes a framework for such still exists. Such a framework existed in Nazi Germany, in Iraq under Saddam.  Did they have the Rule of Law?

 

[Weisshaupt]

When we start to engage them verbally using the same level of inflammatory rhetoric we will always be held accountable by the media and that does not help us win elections. (and if anyone brings up "tone" I will be insulted...no one here, myself included, is telling anyone what they may or may not say on this forum...this is a discussion about tactics and strategy as far as I'm concerned) It is my belief that we need to paint ourselves as the reasonable alternative to their ranting and raving. And that's because we are the reasonable alternative. We beat them on the merits every single time. They can't win the arguments on the merits and that is why you here the nutty talk coming from their side.

And when we don't they will make something up. Gifford's Shooting. Zimmerman. The GOP is coming for our Woman Parts! No one is going to be influenced by the truth of it. They don't care about merit.  The people we are talking about a swing votes are not paying enough attention to notice or care.   You certainly will have no effect on a liberal.

Are we going to be in trouble with fiscal and monetary issues? Of course. But we aren't alone...the whole world is screwed up. As bad as our economic issues are, though, we are still in a position to pick ourselves back up and emerge stronger than any other nation on earth.
Despite the recent assaults on our freedoms we are still the free-est nation on earth. There is no place better. And that is because of our Constitution. Just because we have an administration right now that chooses to ignore it does not mean that it has gone away. These clowns are going to be swept from power. We will emerge from this crisis and we will probably be better for it.

 Heritage's economic index doesn't even list us in the top 5 free countries.  The Press Corps ranking of press freedom puts the US in the latter 40's world wide.  No we are not the free-est nation. Wealthiest maybe, and that makes up for a lot.

But Freedom is different

Our wealth is about to sink into a giant hole. The fact the world goes with is small comfort. Our culture itself has been damaged. 50%+ of the people in the country right now don't even understand the Constitution. Half of the sitting judges on SCOTUS don't.  the younger generation has been mis-educated to see the government as a parent. These are not people who can lift themselves up - its these sort of people that are the reason the rest of the world has been unable to. We prospered at first because America was a frontier and we left these sort of people behind.  The American tribe is much smaller than you suppose, and the barbarian tribe in our midst controls the levels of power.  But say we get them back - we will treat them fairly and according to our values. We seldom ever ratchet anything they have done back, and every time they are in office they ratchet as far forward as they can, because they have no respect at all for our values or our system of government. We are two distinct peoples, and a violent conflict is now pretty much inevitable.
.

All I am saying is that I don't believe we are anywhere near the point of having to throw down yet. I am as willing as anyone else, if and when that time comes, to do so. But until that point arrives I just don't see the point in 1) handing the opposition a club to beat us with and 2) tipping our hand. I can't predict the future anymore or any better than anyone else but I can look where we've been, what we've gone through as a country and use it as a guide. We have been through worse.

They will beat us with their own clubs, they don't care if you hand them one or not. The only time this country was through "worse" we called it the Civil War. Because it is global, the economic collapse is going to be far worse than any other Humanity has ever experienced, because there will be no outside from where help could come.  The Federal government will of necessity either fade in influence or become more tyrannical in order to keep its power. The country is more polarized and divided than ever before, and a change in administration  will not alter that fact. The reality imposed austerity is going to get the monkeys into a frenzy and then don't forget the very real possibility of a world war, because that is what humanity did the last two times things were this bad. This political system is lost. America is not, but if we don't start protecting ourselves, then she will be. It is very clear now: If you are conservative (American)  you will not be treated fairly by the Courts, by the IRS, or any other government agency. They WILL try to confiscate what you have worked for because other have "needs" 

[LadyVirginia]

This point:

Trap has made the point that what we face is an existential crisis, but nothing compared to that faced by the WWII generation, the depression era generation, or modern day Israel - or what Israel has faced throughout its existence for that matter. He's right, and it speaks to my point earlier. As damaged as things are and as grave as things look, we still have more freedom and more wealth and more resources and more infrastructure than any society humanity has ever known.

raises this question for me:



If the solution is to let the country fail and then possibly rebuild-- to which point in time in our country's history do we return? 

[IronDioPriest]

...I think that it can happen. Look to Wisconsin. Who would have thought that the public sector unions could have their power so severely curtailed so quickly? Obviously not the unions judging by their reaction to what happened at the polls and what is about to happen again.

Yes. Not just the curtailing of union power, but the dramatic and almost instantaneous positive effect of conservative fiscal policy. Wisconsin was bankrupt. Now it is solvent. In two years.

Are we going to be in trouble with fiscal and monetary issues? Of course. But we aren't alone...the whole world is screwed up. As bad as our economic issues are, though, we are still in a position to pick ourselves back up and emerge stronger than any other nation on earth.

Yes. If any nation is capable of leading the world out of the insane destruction that the Socialist experiment has wrought against Western civilization, it is America led by conservatives, under the divine providence of God.

Despite the recent assaults on our freedoms we are still the free-est nation on earth. There is no place better. And that is because of our Constitution. Just because we have an administration right now that chooses to ignore it does not mean that it has gone away. These clowns are going to be swept from power. We will emerge from this crisis and we will probably be better for it.

Yes. While I am not as confident that the Leftists will indeed be swept from power, or that what takes their place is up to the task of fixing what they've ruined, we're STILL in a better position to affect positive change because of our constitution and the superior liberty it affords. As long as we are alive and not imprisoned, we have access to the liberty the constitution guarantees. Short of killing or imprisoning us, they cannot stop the people from claiming the liberty that is ours, and employing it against them.

All I am saying is that I don't believe we are anywhere near the point of having to throw down yet. I am as willing as anyone else, if and when that time comes, to do so. But until that point arrives I just don't see the point in 1) handing the opposition a club to beat us with and 2) tipping our hand. I can't predict the future anymore or any better than anyone else but I can look where we've been, what we've gone through as a country and use it as a guide. We have been through worse.

Yes. We've been through a lot worse. Granted, the scenario unfolding is bleak unless things turn around. It is an existential threat. But we've faced existential threats before that have manifested in things much worse than economic insolvency.

And you know, let's say the economy crashes and burns, and people are thrown out of any sense of economic security. What then? Does that automatically mean that Marxists will win the day? Even then, we STILL have the constitution, if we are willing to fight for it - whether in the arena of ideas or with blood if it comes. The principles of constitutional liberty do not depend on a prosperous economy to be manifest. They only require free men willing to defend them. If those free men win the day, prosperity can return, some day. So even if it all crashes and burns, we STILL have to fight for our principles.

[Weisshaupt]

OK, so let's alter and abolish the form of government, and see what fills the vacuum. Somebody tell me where to start. Seems to me we have two choices. We can either start shooting, or we can try like hell to eradicate the ruling class from power and restore some semblance of constitutional civil government.

The Founders just put together a Congress. When this goes down you can be whole State governments will be participating. In the Federalist, that is one of their functions: to serve as a rallying point against an over powerful Fed - something that becomes much more likely when individual State citizens are being dragged from their beds by Federal officers - and we have begun to see that happen. We will try to remove ourselves from their influence - individuals, communities, counties, or whole States will come to be in rebellion - sending the message that they can no longer count on blind obedience and must expect to enforce their laws by violence ( a far more costly endeavor) Tax evasion will become common place, and the Fed will have to exert ever more money and blood to collect its "due." We aren't talking about forming militias and going after them yet, but merely standing our ground.  You shoot when the Coyote is IN YOUR HOUSE. Our reach is currently too short and strength too small to strike at him abroad.  You are drawing the line, and they shall not cross but by violence.

One may think that a grassroots effort by Tea Party types to repeat in the senate and the White House what happened in the house in 2010 is a wasted effort because things are so far gone. Does that mean trying like hell has no value?

No it has value, but the future of the Republic and the American Tribe do not rest on that foundation.

Trap has made the point that what we face is an existential crisis, but nothing compared to that faced by the WWII generation, the depression era generation, or modern day Israel - or what Israel has faced throughout its existence for that matter. He's right, and it speaks to my point earlier. As damaged as things are and as grave as things look, we still have more freedom and more wealth and more resources and more infrastructure than any society humanity has ever known.

This danger comes from within. Non-American Barbarians living among us. Defeat them politically , they just bide their time. They count on our civility and principles to protect them as they wait.  They have no other goal but than to destroy us, and all we believe in.  Leaving Hitler to fester and grow in strength was a mistake. Appeasement didn't work, and his goals are no different than those of this barbarian tribe, and yet you seem to suggest appeasement still. Its only Poland after all. . At some point you cross a line. If you feel the line has not yet been crossed, please tell me when we will know it has been? Put the line in the sand for us all to see.    

I feel it in my gut. The line is crossed. These barbarians within our gates must be dealt with, and they cannot be death with via the system. They are too many, and control too much.  The forces of Sauron are marching upon Minas Tirith (our homes) . Osgiliath ( The former captol of Gondor)   was lost long ago, and now is just a shifting battlefield. An outpost of occupation. As is our Capitol today. Americans do not control their (former) government- they  fight for control of its ruins with Orcs and dark servants of the devil - who curse and laugh at morals and principles other than power. They control our other former great fortresses - Education, the Media - making of them dark towers, cities like Minas Morgul.

 If you would stand with Aragorn and fight with the men of the West, it is time to prepare to do so and take your oath. That is what Nugent is doing. We, like the men of Minas Tirith, look for aid from  elsewhere and find too few arriving. We, like the men of Minas Tirith, find our leaders as corrupt and lacking as Denethor  the steward.  We look for Gandalf, a man of wisdom,  but he has not as yet arrived - and when he arrives he  won't come to wage war in Osgiliath to take it back, he will go to the last strength of men.  Wasting good men in the attempt to retake Osgiliath  at this point is futile. We look for the King to return, but he does not arrive until the darkest hour, with sword raised and helm upon his head ready for battle.  

The Reason LOTR  resonates  is because it is true.

Its a True Fiction. It was true in WWI. It was True in WWII and it is true in the days leading up to WWIII. Power corrupts, and the power we created in the Fed has grown to become as dangerous as the ring. Now we sit at Elrond's House and decide what to do with this power. Do we seize it and try to use its force for good, only to be corrupted ourselves?  Do we wait in Rivendell till the host of the enemy overwhelms us?  Or do we seek to destroy it?

[trapeze]

And I suppose that is why I place my trust and faith in God rather than man.

Which, after all, is what God wants me to do.

[Weisshaupt]

raises this question for me:

If the solution is to let the country fail and then possibly rebuild-- to which point in time in our country's history do we return? 

Conservatives can themselves not agree on that question, and as a result a multi-generational push will not be a success.
Liberals, on the other hand, all think the same. If its means more power for them, then they do it. The simplicity of the equation on their side is a political disadvantage on ours.


If we get the chance to rebuild, we will have another Constitutional Convention, and then we will ratify and then modify what they come up with,same as the last time.
Or at least, this is what ideally would happen, providing this generation's Washington is content with that.

[Libertas]

I'm just gonna hang out...

 

...and wait for the dead-cat bounce.

 

[IronDioPriest]

...If we get the chance to rebuild, we will have another Constitutional Convention, and then we will ratify and then modify what they come up with,same as the last time.
Or at least, this is what ideally would happen, providing this generation's Washington is content with that.

Weisshaupt, honestly, I find value in everything you're saying, and I mean absolutely no disrespect in what I'm about to say. You are hypothesizing and drawing what you view to be educated conclusions about the disaster that is to befall us, and your conclusions are not without merit. I see where they come from.

But to imagine that the United States of America could fall as you envision, but that somehow there would be a "constitutional convention" and that it would come up with anything resembling a document ensconcing individual liberty and limiting government, and that it will be ushered in by "this generation's George Washington", is not realistic, to put it mildly.

If the United States falls, that's it. Liberty dies with her, for all of humanity. Nothing but evil will fill the void left. Can you not see this? Is it not then worth every effort to keep liberty alive?

[Weisshaupt]

If the United States falls, that's it. Liberty dies with her, for all of humanity. Nothing but evil will fill the void left. Can you not see this? Is it not then worth every effort to keep liberty alive?

The United States Government  is not America.  Its an institution we fought for and founded. We didn't even get it close to right the first time under the Articles of Confederation.  One could argue that the Civil war was another such violent revision.  The government is not and never has been America. We are. The American Tribe is.  When the time comes to fight, we will be  fighting for the chance to form such a new government, based on the principles we hold dear. The principles that define us as Americans. The idea of liberty will not die because this government falls. It only dies if we stop holding it or fighting for it.  If the walls if Minas Tirith are breached, some of us  will find that green valley and survive there, our love of liberty intact.

Every revolution is fraught with perils, and pressures that push it off its moral course, and original aim. Lady V's question was 100% hypothetical, so, yes I agree  the actual likelihood of that coming to pass is small.  I  However it did come to pass once, and that without a history demonstrating its worth. I don't think it is impossible that it could come to pass again. No one doubts that a revolution would be risky. We simply doubt that liberty can be retained or secured within the current structure. Once they can take you away in the night without trial its over. Obama has declared he can do that. Once your property is not safe, its over. Gibson Guitar proves that. Once you have no recourse to the courts, its over. Obamacare, Kilo, and countless other decisions have demonstrated that.  Men cannot live side by side with the Orcs. You cannot impose law on them via the Federal government because the only thing they understand is force. They will obey only when forced to , and rape and pillage as soon as an opportunity arises.  Do you think Pelosi worried about the Constitutionality of Obamacare? About breaking any rules?   Half of our population cares nothing about the rules, so taking over the rule making power will only force them to rebel instead of us.

[IronDioPriest]

What makes you think we're talking about the fall of the government? We're talking about the fall of the constitution, and the republic - not the government. The government isn't going anywhere. It will either be a government restored to the people, or it will be turned against the people. But it's not the one in danger here.

You're right, the government is not America. But the constitution is the essence of America. The idea of liberty WILL die, when the American people abandon the principles of constitutional government under the auspices of saving it. Not because we'd be in the wrong - tree, liberty, blood, tyrants, patriots - but because there won't be a second chance if it comes to open hostility. The government won't "lose". It will either be wielded for us, or against us.

I'd like to see it wielded for us, by taking back the reins, and facing whatever comes - no matter how terrible - with a reborn conservative people, reoriented with their constitution at the helm of government, and God at the helm of their lives. I can envision it. If it can be envisioned, it can be manifest.

 

[LadyVirginia]

And I suppose that is why I place my trust and faith in God rather than man.

Which, after all, is what God wants me to do.

Having recently read a little about George Washington, the War for Independence and the other various moments of history I am more convinced than ever that the hand of God has guided us in this country.  There is no reason that we eventually had success in 1783 (the war was popular for about 6 months after it started, it was underfunded and undermanned.)  Slavery should have torn this country apart, the Confederates had opportunities to win, the Supreme Court said slaves were property.  Waves of immigrants flooded this country and were treated like crap.  Eminent domain has built many a town on the property rightfully owned by others.  Kilo wasn't the first.  The list could go on.

Whether the liberals like it or not this country was built on the Declaration and Constitution grounded on a faith in God.  They can try to discredit those documents but they can never get around the truth that those documents created this country and gave us a foundation. We really have the upper hand and we should use it.   

[Weisshaupt]

What makes you think we're talking about the fall of the government? We're talking about the fall of the constitution, and the republic - not the government. The government isn't going anywhere. It will either be a government restored to the people, or it will be turned against the people. But it's not the one in danger here.

You're right, the government is not America. But the constitution is the essence of America. The idea of liberty WILL die, when the American people abandon the principles of constitutional government under the auspices of saving it. Not because we'd be in the wrong - tree, liberty, blood, tyrants, patriots - but because there won't be a second chance if it comes to open hostility. The government won't "lose". It will either be wielded for us, or against us.

I'd like to see it wielded for us, by taking back the reins, and facing whatever comes - no matter how terrible - with a reborn conservative people, reoriented with their constitution at the helm of government, and God at the helm of their lives. I can envision it. If it can be envisioned, it can be manifest.

Now who is being unrealistic? Will we wield that government to persecute the barbarians? To deport them? If not, then they will just bide their time. If we do, then they will openly rebel - which is almost certain anyway since the coming austerity will leave most of them without the means to survive in any other way. The collapse absolutely favors the forces of Marxism. Most will choose eating and obeying over  resisting and dying.

These Barbarians  have no respect for the Constitution,  Laws, liberty or rights. Such old fashioned ideas! They will claim the government legitimate only when it is run by their own, and regard it as illegitimate when it is not. The constitution and the republic have already fallen - probably before either of us was born.  It is already a government turned against its people, and both Parties are invested in that system. Do you think that the government  of the British Empire wasn't turned against the colonists? Was the Fed not turned against the South ( and no, that war  was not a forgone conclusion)  The fact that the government will be wielded against us IS a foregone conclusion, regardless of if we resist or not. The GOP will use it against us as readily as the Dems do.

You are correct there will not be a second chance if we fail, but there is NO CHANCE if we do not try. There will be no conservative rebirth, or if there is, I have great difficulty in seeing how that would come about. People are more dependent than ever in our history. They are more uneducated than ever in our history. America is no longer a land of rural farmers,and the dominant culture is now one of Marxism, not Americanism. As time passes our political power will wane even more, because our enemies will grow stronger, develop greater numbers, and persecute us openly, in ways we would never be able to return or counter because doing so WOULD be giving up our principles. Resistance is REFUSING to give up those principles AND protecting ourselves from those who refuse to abide or follow them, be they the GOP or the Dems. The GOP winning doesn't put those reigns in our hands-the GOP is not "us" - Isengard has betrayed us. Granted having those reigns of government  in our power as the collapse occurs might very well be beneficial, were it possible in this political climate, which I don't think it is. But if we did have them,   would you use the power to persecute our enemies? Will you use government power to round the traitorous barbarians  up into camps? To deprive them of their rights and property? To do as they would do and are doing? Will use the government as a weapon against your fellow citizens?  Is that not losing our principles? Having possession of the power to keep it out of the hands of the enemy may benefit us - but this election cannot accomplish that.   Such people as resist are not abandoning the principles of Constitutional government, merely recognizing the cold hard facts that  they do not have one, and now their most cherished freedoms are threatened more boldly and more directly than at any point in our history. That they are surrounded by people who do not cherish them, and who will feed them and their families into the gas chambers for a loaf of bread.

The idea of liberty cannot die. You can't kill an Idea, and certainly not one as primal and basic to human nature as that one is. If my small library of books survives the history and proof will live on. If any of us teach our kids and they survive, it will live on. The survival of our tribe is in question here.   Taking the government back will not secure such survival - it at best holds them at bay, delays the attack and allows the enemy to grow stronger, and there is now no question about the intentions and goals of that enemy. They mean to kill or enslave you and make you serve their tribe and their goals.  They have made it an us or them proposition. The role the weapon plays in that War will in no case stop that war from coming,and war there  must and will be, for the only other course is to accept their yoke.

[Libertas]

"The collapse absolutely favors the forces of Marxism. Most will choose eating and obeying over resisting and dying."

Amen!  Look at our current political will, or lack thereof!  What hope do we have that these people will set things right without being sacked themselves eventually?  Look at Greece, socialists are in power, pulling kabuki bailouts to postpone judgement day when they will be forced to cut lavish social bene's!  You think that rabble in the street who largely voted for the clowns in power give a damn what party is in power?  Nope!  When streetlights get decorated they won't care either.  Same thing can and will happen here.

I only see one peaceful way out of our mess, and it stands just about a zero percent chance of happening, and that is a managed division of the nation into republican and socialist parts.

Short of that it is all phony war baloney before the real war kicks off.

It sucks, I hate it, and I'll be pissed it came to pass, but I am becoming more and more convinced there is no peaceful coexistence with people who only want to enslave you.  I, we are intransigent in keeping our liberty, they are intransigent in taking it away by any means necessary.

Damn!  I didn't wait for the dead-cat bounce and shot my mouth off!  Oh, well...sorry!

[Pandora]

Nothing to be sorry about, Libertas.  Everybody gets their say.  We're doing what we always do here; we make our arguments, and we're passionate, but civil because, while our opinions differ, we still respect and care for each other.

Maybe I'm projecting, but I can easily imagine the same sort of arguments among the Founders while planning The Declaration, AND the Constitution.

In the end, they hung together because ... well, you know.

[Weisshaupt]

Nothing to be sorry about, Libertas.  Everybody gets their say.  We're doing what we always do here; we make our arguments, and we're passionate, but civil because, while our opinions differ, we still respect and care for each other.

Maybe I'm projecting, but I can easily imagine the same sort of arguments among the Founders while planning The Declaration, AND the Constitution.

In the end, they hung together because ... well, you know.

This is very much like the arguments they had in in the first continental congress. No projection required. .   

[warpmine]

We must recognize that if we abolish this oppressive government it doesn't have to mean that we abolish the very essence of the government formed under the constitution. Perhaps a few tweaks will prevent this from ever happening again but that will be left to the future generations who would have hopefully learned that you cannot abandon responsibility to the government.

Anyway, we so far from the constitutional government set up in 1789 and the gap is widening as we speak. The rule of law back then meant something as opposed to what this current crop thinks it means what ever they say at a given moment in time.

Make no mistake, the RoL is gone and we should make certain that we prioritize our agenda in installing it once again. In my mind, "abolish the that government" means relieving ourselves from the tyranny from those that are in power illegally and that translates into those that are from both parties occupying the capitol. If we are to re-establish the experiment in self governance we will need at least a guide and so why can we not use the original constitution with it's first ten amendments as that guide?

I'm getting ahead of myself, we haven't a revolt as yet but we may as well place upon ourselves honorable and achievable goals. Viva America with it's constitution!