Author Topic: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine  (Read 237292 times)

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Offline Libertas

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Offline patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2841 on: March 25, 2025, 01:51:58 PM »


Time ran a piece on Zelensky "The Endgame"
 
https://youtu.be/c6DM5-VF1i0?t=841
It included a photo taken of Ze in front of 2 paintings One was of the Kremlin on fire. The other was pf Ukr soldiers inside Russia. Another painting was not in the photo, of a RU ship sinking. This generated lots of memes.

https://youtu.be/c6DM5-VF1i0?t=1328












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Offline patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2842 on: March 25, 2025, 02:39:52 PM »



I wanted revisit this video by  guy who was born in 1971  to Ukrainian speakers, grew up in Kiev, went to University there, and moved to US in 1998.  He said you almost never heard Ukrainian spoken in Kiev. He also said when he visited later he could not help younger relatives with homework because he did not know the words. I later figured out the Ukr language had been changed.

Link to chart in 1991 showing left to right countries Great Britain, Italy, France, Germany, Ukraine SSR and various outputs. The chart was used to argue that Ukr would be better off outside of USSR.  The big question is how Ukr ended up so bad given a good start and good future predictions.

Here is the Ukr ranking: elec 3, oil & gas 2, nat gas 2, coal 1, iron ore 1, steel 1, concrete 4, grain 2,  potatoes  1, meat 3, milk 2, sugar 1, butter 2

https://youtu.be/Msf8HuIWlQA?t=130

link to GDP from 1990 to 2010. 100 pct at 1990. 41 pct 1998. 66 pct 2010.
https://youtu.be/Msf8HuIWlQA?t=215
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Offline patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2843 on: March 25, 2025, 02:47:07 PM »
grok
Ukraine GDP (1990–Present) Description
(All values are approximate, in current U.S. dollars, based on sources like the World Bank and other economic databases.)
1990: ~$81 billion
Ukraine was still part of the Soviet Union until late 1991. This GDP reflects the economic output of the Ukrainian SSR before independence, a relatively high starting point due to its industrial base.

1991–1999: Severe decline
After independence in August 1991, Ukraine’s economy collapsed. By 1994, GDP had fallen to ~$42 billion, nearly half its 1990 level, due to hyperinflation, loss of Soviet markets, and a chaotic transition to a market economy. The decline continued through the 1990s, hitting a low of ~$31.6 billion in 1999. This period marks a cumulative drop of over 60% in real terms, one of the steepest among former Soviet states.

2000–2008: Recovery and growth
Starting in 2000, Ukraine saw its first year of GDP growth. The economy expanded steadily, fueled by rising exports (metals, chemicals) and low Russian gas prices. By 2008, GDP peaked at ~$188 billion, approaching 80% of its Soviet-era size in real terms before the global financial crisis hit.

2009: Sharp drop
The Great Recession caused a contraction, with GDP falling to ~$117 billion in 2009, a decline of about 35% from 2008.

2010–2013: Modest recovery
The economy rebounded, reaching ~$183 billion by 2013, though growth was uneven and slowed by political instability.

2014–2015: Steep decline
The Russian annexation of Crimea and conflict in eastern Ukraine led to a severe economic downturn. GDP dropped to ~$133 billion in 2014 and further to ~$91 billion in 2015—barely half its 2013 level—due to war, trade disruptions, and currency devaluation.

2016–2021: Gradual recovery
Growth resumed in 2016, with GDP rising to ~$112 billion. By 2021, it reached ~$200 billion, the highest nominal value to date, reflecting stabilization and export growth, though still below Soviet-era peaks in real terms.

2022: Collapse due to war
Russia’s full-scale invasion devastated the economy, shrinking GDP by ~29% in real terms. Nominal GDP fell to ~$162 billion as infrastructure damage and population displacement took a toll.

2023–2024: Partial rebound
In 2023, GDP grew to ~$179 billion, with a 5.3% real growth rate, driven by resilience and international aid. Estimates for 2024 suggest ~$189 billion, though ongoing war limits recovery. Projections for 2025 are uncertain but expect modest growth if conflict eases.

« Last Edit: March 25, 2025, 05:50:33 PM by patentlymn »
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Offline patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2844 on: March 26, 2025, 12:49:33 PM »

I asked grok to clear this up
The United States and Russia agreed on a ceasefire regarding energy infrastructure strikes between Russia and Ukraine on March 18, 2025. This agreement came during a phone call between U.S. President Donald Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin, which lasted over two hours. The Kremlin stated that Putin responded positively to Trump’s proposal for a 30-day halt on attacks targeting energy infrastructure, ordering the Russian military to implement it immediately. The White House described this as a "first step" toward broader peace efforts, though it fell short of a full ceasefire across all hostilities, which Ukraine had already endorsed and the U.S. had sought. Posts on X and various news reports, including from Reuters and The New York Times, confirm this date, noting the agreement’s focus on pausing strikes on energy facilities like pipelines, power stations, and refineries, starting March 18, 2025. However, both sides reported continued strikes in the days following, indicating challenges in enforcement or trust.

What are examples of Russian and Ukraine strikes on energy infrastructure after Mar 18, 2025?

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Offline patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2845 on: March 26, 2025, 12:57:09 PM »

Following the U.S.-Russia agreement on March 18, 2025, to pause strikes on energy infrastructure between Russia and Ukraine for 30 days, reports indicate that both sides continued attacks in the days that followed, undermining the ceasefire’s enforcement. Here are specific examples of continued strikes based on available information up to March 26, 2025:
March 18, 2025 (Hours After Agreement) 
Russian Strike on Sloviansk, Ukraine: Within hours of the Trump-Putin call, a Russian aerial bomb or drone struck energy infrastructure in Sloviansk, Donetsk region. This attack, reported by Ukrainian sources and journalists like Tsaplienko, cut power to half the city. Posts on X and news outlets like Kyiv Post noted this occurred less than an hour after the ceasefire was agreed upon, highlighting immediate non-compliance.

March 18-19, 2025 (Overnight) 
Russian Drone Attacks Across Ukraine: Late on March 18 into early March 19, Russia launched over 40 drones targeting multiple Ukrainian regions, including Kyiv, Sumy, Odesa, Poltava, Dnipropetrovsk, and Chernihiv. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky reported strikes on civilian infrastructure, including a hospital in Sumy and the power grid in Sloviansk. Kyiv Post and Reuters confirmed explosions in Kyiv and damage to railway power systems in Dnipropetrovsk, suggesting energy-related targets were hit despite the agreement.

March 19, 2025 
Russian Strikes on Odesa and Other Areas: The Guardian reported that Russian drones pounded Odesa overnight, hitting a high-rise residential building, a shopping center, and unspecified infrastructure targets. While not explicitly labeled as energy sites, the broad scope of “infrastructure” attacks raises questions about adherence to the ceasefire. Separately, Moscow accused Ukraine of striking an oil depot in southern Russia, though this predated Zelensky’s formal agreement to the truce later that day.

March 20-21, 2025 
Russian Drone Strikes on Odesa: The Guardian noted continued waves of Russian drones targeting Odesa, with regional governor Oleh Kiper reporting damage to infrastructure during a visit by the Czech president. The Kremlin clarified on March 21 that the ceasefire only covered “energy infrastructure,” not broader targets, implying these strikes might not violate their interpretation—though Ukraine contested this narrow definition.

March 25, 2025 
Russian Claims of Ukrainian Strikes: Russia accused Ukraine of launching three attacks on civilian energy infrastructure, including Rosseti power lines, a gas station in Svatovo, and gas storage in Crimea, during ceasefire talks in Saudi Arabia. Posts on X from @MarioNawfal
 echoed these claims, though independent verification is lacking as of March 26. Conversely, Reuters reported ongoing Russian strikes on Ukrainian energy facilities, with both sides pointing fingers but providing few specifics for this date.

These examples illustrate a pattern of continued strikes post-agreement, with both Russia and Ukraine reportedly targeting energy and infrastructure sites. The lack of trust and differing interpretations—Russia limiting the ceasefire to “energy” while the U.S. and Ukraine envisioned broader coverage—contributed to the breakdowns. Reports from Reuters, The New York Times, and X posts align on the persistence of attacks through at least March 25, though exact details on every incident remain murky due to the fluid situation and limited real-time data beyond March 26, 2025.



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Offline patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2846 on: March 26, 2025, 05:29:03 PM »


Witkoff told Tucker about the referendums in the 4 oblasts which sent the Kiev faction into further madness calling for his firing.
US govt and EU have been calling them shams and fake. 
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2847 on: March 27, 2025, 07:59:58 AM »


Witkoff told Tucker about the referendums in the 4 oblasts which sent the Kiev faction into further madness calling for his firing.
US govt and EU have been calling them shams and fake.

From their perspective they are not wrong...

After all, they're actively trying to neutralize what they dub "far-right extremists" from running for office using dubious means while claiming to be pro-democracy...and trying to outlaw the so-called "far-right extremist" parties outright...

It is quite natural to assume your geopolitical enemies doing the same...

And I am not saying they are wrong about the latter or not...because primarily I just don't care...

Peace is coming, all have to accept that...
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Offline Libertas

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Offline patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2849 on: March 28, 2025, 09:58:05 AM »


https://t.me/putingers_cat/13524
In this episode of "Ukraine of the brain," Lithuania is fighting against its former "occupation" by grinding "USSR" inscriptions off of manhole covers.

Yes, the covers have not been replaced since the breakup of 1991.  No, Lithuania does not have the funds to just replace them.
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Offline patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2850 on: March 28, 2025, 11:05:54 AM »
I wonder what Kiev is up to with the cease fire on energy infrastructure? What is their plan?

https://t.me/putingers_cat/13525
On March 28, at about 10:20 AM, the Kyiv regime launched a double strike using, according to preliminary information, HIMARS rockets at the Sudzha gas metering station, which resulted in a major fire and the energy facility was completely destroyed. Also, on the morning of March 28, air defense systems in the Saratov region shot down and intercepted 19 Ukrainian airplane-type drone?, the target of which was the infrastructure of the Saratov Oil Refinery. In addition, on March 27 in the Belgorod region at about 3 PM, as a result of targeted artillery shelling of "Belgorodenergo" (the facility of the branch of "Rosseti Center" Public Joint Stock Company), there was a power outage for consumers in the Shebekinsky district. All publicly stated commitments to stop attacks on Russian civilian energy infrastructure are yet another ploy by Zelensky to prevent the collapse of the Ukrainian Armed Forces front and restore its military potential with the help of European “allies,” the Russian Defense Ministry said.

Is the below true? I see no direct quotes.

https://t.me/ForeignAgentIntel/14123
??Volodymyr Zelensky is ready to accept any demands of the United States if Washington stops investigating large-scale theft of Western financial aid in the highest echelons of Ukrainian power, industry resources report.

Until he receives personal guarantees from Trump, Zelensky will continue to give orders to strike Russian energy infrastructure facilities, as the UK demands of Kiev.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2025, 06:02:21 PM by patentlymn »
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Offline patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2851 on: March 30, 2025, 02:48:15 AM »

What is Ze trying to accomplish?  I understand that western help is needed to use the Himars. i read that France and UK provided this assistance for this strike. This station provided gas maybe to EU. The US and RU agreed to  30 day cease fire on energy infrastructure. Is Ze trying to piss off Trump?

https://t.me/kalibrated/18614
Ukraine continue striking at Russian energy infrastructure in an attempt to sabotage negotiations.

This morning the AFU launched a double strike using HIMARS rockets at the Sudzha gas metering station, which resulted in a major fire and the energy facility was virtually destroyed.

Also today Russian air defense systems in the Saratov region shot down and 19 Ukrainian UAVs with their target being the infrastructure of the Saratov Oil Refinery.

On March 27 in the Belgorod region as a result of targeted artillery shelling of the facility of the branch of PJSC Rosseti Centre - Belgorodenergo, there was a power outage for consumers in the Shebekinsky district
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2852 on: March 31, 2025, 08:10:08 AM »
Why all the surprise and confusion?  What do you expect him to do, sue for peace at any cost?   ::hysterical::

His army is decimated...Trump wants to GTFO of this mess and only the EuroDespots want more war...and he is getting his ass kicked in the field...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/russia-captures-several-more-villages-eastern-southern-ukraine

...all he can do is launch missiles and drones...nothing else left on the shelf.
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2853 on: March 31, 2025, 08:37:50 AM »
Also, I like this -

President Trump simply noted that while President Putin doesn’t like Zelenskyy, and factually calls him illegitimate, Trump needs Putin to accept Zelenskyy in order to have the other chair at the peace table filled. That’s it. Pragmatic toward peace!
.
.
.
Additionally, regarding Zelenskyy, President Trump notes the Ukraine President is going to face “a lot of trouble” if he backs out of the previously agreed minerals deal.


https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2025/03/30/president-trump-holds-impromptu-presser-from-air-force-one-video/

Common sense to me, we and he are stuck with Zelensky good, bad or indifferent...he is a PITA for both of us...and Trump is not going to let him squirm off any hook...

 ::thumbsup::
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2854 on: March 31, 2025, 09:51:06 AM »
Emperor speaks...

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.
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The issue is not just this uncertainty; it is that these neo-Nazi formations, such as Azov, among others, are effectively beginning to run the country. This raises the question: how is it possible to conduct negotiations with them?

In such situations, international practice follows a well-established path. Within the framework of the United Nations peacekeeping operations, there have been several cases of what is termed external governance or temporary administration. This occurred in East Timor, I believe in 1999, in parts of the former Yugoslavia, and in New Guinea. In short, such precedents exist.

In principle, it would indeed be possible to discuss, under UN auspices with the United States and even European countries – and certainly with our partners and allies – the possibility of establishing a temporary administration in Ukraine. To what end? To conduct democratic elections, to bring to power a competent government that enjoys public trust, and only then to begin negotiations on a peace treaty and sign legitimate agreements that would be recognised worldwide as consistent and reliable.

This is just one option; I do not claim that others do not exist. They certainly do. At present, there is no opportunity – and perhaps no possibility – to lay out every detail, as the situation is evolving rapidly. But this remains a viable option, and such precedents exist within UN practice, as I have already noted.

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2025/03/31/current-status-russian-president-vladimir-putin/

There is interest to end this on both sides...the way to effect it must be mutually discovered, encouraged and embraced.
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Offline patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2855 on: March 31, 2025, 12:30:55 PM »

Here is what puzzled me over Kiev violating the cease fire on energy infrastructure repeatedly and recently.

Trump" I have a huge ego. Look at me. I just brokered this partial cease fire.
Ze: Screw you we will do what we want.
Putin: OK we will honor the deal.

I recently learned that the Korean armistice was signed by only US, N Korea, and China. NOT s Korea. These multi way deals can have a party who is pissed off.
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Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2856 on: March 31, 2025, 01:19:05 PM »
People...

They're the worst...

Whatchyagonnado?
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Offline patentlymn

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2857 on: March 31, 2025, 03:27:33 PM »


Alex summarizes the recent NYT long article on Ukraine. In short, US/Biden was brilliant but Kiev disobeyed US which is why they lost. US had no idea Kursk was to happen. Russia was incompetent. NYT says they interviewed 300 people but no Russians.

18:30 to 30:30
https://youtu.be/0bsg8QkGjow?t=1107
Empire Strikes Le Pen. Trump, BIG PROBLEMS Elensky. NYT, Ukraine spoiled Biden victory over Russia
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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2858 on: March 31, 2025, 09:48:56 PM »
New York Times Publishes Explosive Investigation Article Showing U.S. Military Boots on Ground in Ukraine, and CIA Operation to Target Russian Federation with Drones and Missiles

https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2025/03/31/new-york-times-publishes-explosive-investigation-article-showing-u-s-military-boots-on-ground-in-ukraine-and-cia-operation-to-target-russian-federation-with-drones-and-missiles/

Offline Libertas

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Re: The Battle over East vs West (Russia vs Europe) continues in Ukraine
« Reply #2859 on: April 01, 2025, 08:41:24 AM »
From the link -

Which brings me to this Tweet I sent in response to the revelatory article:

Dear President Trump, if this NYT article is accurate (it is), there has to be a “Presidential Finding Memo” authorizing the CIA to coordinate attacks into Russia.

You might want to have CIA Director John Ratcliffe, and DNI Tulsi Gabbard pull it out of the authorization library for your review, prior to the next call with Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Also, to avoid embarrassment, as your team are likely aware – and possibly willing to admit, that “finding memo” was also briefed to the former Gang of Eight in congress. Which means Secretary of State Marco Rubio as vice-chair of the SSCI and Go8 member, already knew of this CIA operation, authorizing their involvement in targeting Russian Federation territory.

You might want to ask Secretary Rubio about that, and organize a way to discuss it, prior to Rubio coming face to face with his Russian counterpart Sergey Lavrov at the next meeting.

Warmest possible regards, and deepest appreciation for your ongoing “ceasefire” efforts.

Good luck

The motive is clear for the New York Times to outline how the CIA is operating inside Ukraine to target the Russian Federation.

The operatives who leak to the NYT want distance between Trump and Putin. This admission of CIA involvement puts Trump in an awkward place.

The awkwardness expands, when you understand how the CIA is authorized to conduct these operations. The President, Biden, signed a “finding memo,” authorizing the CIA to conduct missile strikes into the Russian Federation.

Senator Marco Rubio as SSCI vice-chair and a Gang of Eight member, was ‘read in’ to that CIA authorization.

Senator Rubio is now Secretary of State facing Sergey Lavrov, and the Russians know exactly how these things are done.

On one hand, the NYT article spills the beans and informs the public. On the other hand, their reason for purposefully spilling the beans is to create a problem for Trump and Rubio, and possibly between Trump and Rubio.

It makes sense now why Secretary of State Rubio was the first Trump official to publicly say the United States was in a proxy war against Russia using Ukraine as the justification.

On the upside, this creates an opportunity for President Trump to distance himself from the prior administration and withdraw all CIA operatives and admitted/revealed U.S. military boots on the ground in Ukraine.

President Trump could use this revelation, now public and widespread, to reset the U.S-Ukraine dynamic and withdraw all elements of prior Biden authorization from the conflict.

Will he?


There should be no rift between Rubio & Trump, if that was the NYT's goal I think they wiffed, in fact I am surprised the CIA clowns involved in this let them run with this...all they did IMO is give the Trump Team the means to end this support...something the President had to be aware of when he paused all support earlier, now he can end it straight up, and it should resonate positively with the Kremlin.

More disturbingly...I have no idea how credible this is...we do know how unbalanced Z and his senior cadre is...

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ukraine-has-secret-nuclear-doomsday-plan-according-former-zelensky-advisor

We need to send a clear and unambiguous message to Ukraine that any such insanity will enrage Americans, all support for Ukraine will cease...and we may well turn on them kinetically.

We are now where The Founders were when they faced despotism.